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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ian on August 08, 2011, 03:30:12 AM
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Hello,
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?
Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.
It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.
Where and why do people have these thoughts?
I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?
Some insight would be appreciated...
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Thoughts are part of the human condition.
Observing thoughts is the witness, the neutral observer.
What you resist, persists.
The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.
In the presence of neutral observation, thoughts can come and go...and they do. The more you notice your thoughts in the neutral place of simple recognition, the more peace comes of understanding acceptance without attachment....
Have you ever noticed a thought come and go. Or, noticed what you are thinking...just watch for your next thought...when the light of noticing is on....thoughts seem to shy away.....~ :)
From a Biblical perspective, consider deeply what is said in Heb 4 : 7, Again He sets a DEFINITE DAY, [a new] TODAY, and give another opportunity of securing that REST.....9 So then, there is still awaiting a full and complete Sabbath REST reserved for the [true] people of God....
Arc
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2 Cor 6 : 2 For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee; behold, NOW is the accepted time, behold, NOW is the day of salvation....
NOW is present, not future or past in time but NOW is now...~ :)
That's Biblical.
Arc
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Hello,
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?
Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.
It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.
Where and why do people have these thoughts?
I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?
To a great degree, you've answered your 'where and why' question...thoughts do come out of the hearts of men, as Jesus said in your quoted passage.
The question of why someone would be upset about it confuses me a little. I'm not sure why someone who has thoughts about hurting someone should NOT be upset about it.
He can take comfort in knowing there is something he can do about it.
Php 4:8,9 As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many (things) as are grave, as many (things) as are righteous, as many (things) as are pure, as many (things) as are lovely, as many (things) as are of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon; the things that also ye did learn, and receive, and hear, and saw in me, those do, and the God of the peace shall be with you.
Here's just a couple of 'things' that fit that description:
He should know that he is not alone in these evil thoughts. The details may differ, but the heart is the same, and we can't wear any 'religious' garb(age) which will cover up that fact.
He should know that Jesus did not come to call the 'righteous' to repentance, but sinners. He came to save sinners. And unlike the church's theologies teach, he didn't come to save them from eternal hell-fire, but from their sins. If he's disturbed by these thoughts, he should know that this is a necessary part of him being saved from even having them.
If he believes the Gospel, he knows that the end for all of sinning humanity is reconciliation with God. And if he believes that whole-heartedly, he should be comforted by the fact that he is already overcoming the worst 'evil thought' about harming somebody--having them deserve and recieve never-ending torture in a fabled hell-fire.
He should think about those 'things', and many others, that will replace his old thoughts and create a new heart.
He should also understand that Sovereign God doesn't expect him to be any different AT THIS MOMENT than he IS, because this is the way God has caused him to be. But just like the blind man healed by Jesus, He caused him to be this way for a greater purpose--to be healed to the Glory of God.
Sorry for preaching. I'm no stranger to what you are talking about. This is how I keep from sinking back into despair and have hope. I hope that helps.
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It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.
Where and why do people have these thoughts?
1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
John 10:10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
Thoughts are part of the human condition.
Observing thoughts is the witness, the neutral observer.
What you resist, persists.
The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.
Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit
Eph 2:2-3 ...you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others
One's thoughts are either on the things of the flesh or things of the Spirit...to 'observe' also means to think or have thoughts, so those thoughts would not be neutral.
Marques
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Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':
I did not say that people POSSESS a neutral observer. To say such a thing is parallel to believing that Jesus or God is something to GET or to POSSESS!
Just because you can not see the sun in the night, doesn't mean it is not there....~ :D
If you disagree with something and if it doesn't go against the teachings here in BTF, then by all means ask, if you want to understand, for clarification. So as not to throw the Topic off course, the best place to ask is in the PM lines. ~ :)
Back on topic, intrusive thoughts can appear in all kinds of experiences. Just watching a movie can present intrusion or violation of what so ever things are lovely...Just watch TV news for instance. ~ ;)
Arc
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Hi Ian,
1Pe 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds. We have to fight to keep evil thoughts out of our mind so that they will not take root and develop into sinful words or deeds. But this is not a battle that we must fight alone, Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit indwelling is there for us.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
v. 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:
We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting. If it is hard to get a thought out, seek God earnestly for help (pray works wonders for this), even having just a little change to stop those wrong thoughts is a step in the right direction. So always strive to cast aside wrong thoughts and keep up the fight to overcome and Satan will be force to leave you alone.
James 4:7 Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
It is indeed a spiritual battle of the mind we are in.
2Cor 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
v. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
Here is a email on this subject.
http://bible-truths.com/email16.htm ---------------------------------------------
Last night, my daughter was having scary thoughts and asked me how to keep from having thoughts like that. I read 2 Corinthians 10:5 to her and she asked me what it means. I told her I would find out.
I myself am wondering what it means and how to take every though captive to the obedience of Christ. My wonderful daughter has a very fertile imagination which I know Satan can take advantage of.
Ruth
[Ray Replies]
Dear Ruth:
Thank you for your email and question.
II Cor. 10:5 is one of those ALL-ENCOMPASSING Scriptures that cannot be realized by following some magic formula or repeating some prayer, etc. Bringing every thought into the captivity of Jesus Christ requires a LIFETIME of overcoming and living by God's Spiritual Laws. Jesus also told us to "Be ye therefore PERFECT." Again, this is not something that is accomplished by reading the Scripture or following some short-term magical formula. It requires a lifetime of obeying God and living through our many trials and tribulations.
However, I do not wish to let you stranded with an impossible task for your daughter. The Scriptures also say that "As a person THINKS IN HIS HEART, so is he." Therefore THINK ABOUT GOOD AND PLEASANT THINGS. Even dreams "Come from an abundance of business" or whatever we think about most. Therefore, again, THINK ABOUT GOOD AND PLEASANT THINGS.
Notice what Paul himself tells us:
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, THINK ON THESE THINGS. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me [Paul], DO; and the GOD OF PEACE SHALL BE WITH YOU." (Phil. 4:8-9).
I'll leave it up to you to put these terms into words your daughter understands.
God be with you,
Ray
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He should also understand that Sovereign God doesn't expect him to be any different AT THIS MOMENT than he IS, because this is the way God has caused him to be. But just like the blind man healed by Jesus, He caused him to be this way for a greater purpose--to be healed to the Glory of God.
Careful Dave, taking the --BT FOR DUMMIES-- approach like this……….could………… cause a quelling of nasty human rut-grounded guilt emotions that could then give rise to recognizing baby steps in the journey of comprehending that we are quite normal, as normal goes, in God’s eyes, even though our sinful nature bests us at times.
I.......would......just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless. Can't have that, can we? ;D
Soul medicine, there-of.
But enough of my guilt.
Sorry for preaching. I'm no stranger to what you are talking about.
Nor am I, so you just keep on preaching preacherman.
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The question of why someone would be upset about it confuses me a little. I'm not sure why someone who has thoughts about hurting someone should NOT be upset about it.
Dave, I think you misunderstood that part of my question.
I'm talking about people who have bad thoughts, but are upset about having them (i.e., they're not trying to think these thoughts, they just come in their mind). Some people have anxiety after a bad thought, and dwell upon it (because they're so upset), causing them to think about it more.
For example, suppose it was taught in Christian circles that even thinking of murder is an "unpardonable" sin. Everyone who read or heard this statement will instantly think of murder.
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He can still start in the same place by 'thinking about' whatsoever things are TRUE. His belief that even thinking of hurting someone is the 'unpardonable sin is simply NOT TRUE.
That's not the end of it, but it's a good place to start.
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I think Kat's word "aware" and Arcturus' "observe" are really the same thing!
Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen. There was a great Christian writer who said, "if all you do in an hour of prayer is to gently
observe those thoughts and then attempt go back and focus on God, you will have done much"
Praying is not only difficult at times, it takes much discipline and practice with the mind. Eventually you will succeed in overcoming these thoughts in a flash.
judy
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Arcturus, people do not possess a 'neutral observer':
I did not say that people POSSESS a neutral observer. To say such a thing is parallel to believing that Jesus or God is something to GET or to POSSESS!
Just because you can not see the sun in the night, doesn't mean it is not there....~ :D
So Jesus is this neutral observer you speak of?
The neutral observer, notices without condemnation or approval. That is what neutral is. Neither positive nor negative, just present.
Whoever you're describing above, it's still not true:
Rev 2:2-4 I [Jesus] know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love
Jesus approves of the church's good works and condemns it's bad ones.
If you disagree with something and if it doesn't go against the teachings here in BTF, then by all means ask, if you want to understand, for clarification. So as not to throw the Topic off course, the best place to ask is in the PM lines. ~ :)
When a member posts questionable comments in a thread, it's only fair for that member to explain themselves within the same thread. A PM doesn't do any good for the membership as a whole. To imply that Jesus is 'neutral' is false and that point should be made clear for all to understand.
Marques
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OK, I'll ask. What is a PM and how do you make one?
Despite the controversy I found this a very important discussion.
I sometimes think crazy, nonsensical things. Am I to think this is sin? Or, do I redirect my thoughts and not dwell on the craziness or the despair or the lie, so that I do Not sin? God knew we needed to be directed to think lovely, true thoughts because we will all fall into lies if we are not diligently seeking God.
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Hi Ian
If I was a psychologist I would blame it on one of your parents, or something like that, but I like calling a spade a spade. ;D
Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.
He tells us what the armour is in Ephesians 6:10-18
Notice in verse 17 the helmet of salvation protects the head where the mind is. :) don't forget about the rest of the armour, don't want to be found naked. :)
Joel
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Ian,
I have been in such a situation. And I will be again. But in the absence of freewill we know that these thoughts come from a thousand different influences and not necessarily from our conscious effort.
What caused these influences that cause the thoughts?
Rather, Who caused these influences?
Since I don't know what causes them I can hardly know how to stop them. But I know someone who can.
When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away. That's His job, not mine. I go on to other business.
But that's me.
Lewis
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Correct me if I am wrong, but...
Isn't it "neutral observer" us weighing things whether a thought, a plan, or a feeling, is good or bad? Some sort of a conscience.
Scenario: Sometimes, I wish I have a gun so I can use it to intimidate someone who wants to try to bully me when circumstance arises. But a part of me says that I should not since it might cause a string of problems if accidentally or intentionally I happened to use it. Isn't this what others coined "neutral observer"?
I may be wrong (again). Just like what I once thought what a free will is.
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Correct me if I am wrong, but...
Isn't it "neutral observer" us weighing things whether a thought, a plan, or a feeling, is good or bad? Some sort of a conscience.
The human being hasn't been born who can 'neutrally observe' itself. What you're describing is judging our works, which only the Spirit of God can/will do. But even this is not neutral:
1 Cor 3:13-15 ...each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss...
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire
Good works are refined, bad works are burned away. You can't judge something to be good or bad and yet be neutral. That's why the comment of a 'neutral observer' makes no sense whatsoever. Jesus said He's rather we be cold than to be lukewarm [Rev 3:16].
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Hi octoberose,
I sometimes think crazy, nonsensical things. Am I to think this is sin? Or, do I redirect my thoughts and not dwell on the craziness or the despair or the lie, so that I do Not sin? God knew we needed to be directed to think lovely, true thoughts because we will all fall into lies if we are not diligently seeking God.
Well we are to be "bringing into captivity every thought" (2Cor 10:5), so I think we are to always direct our thoughts towards lovely and true thoughts. I do not see it a sin if we have wicked thoughts pop into pur minds, but we can not let those kind of thoughts remain. We are now under the new convenant and it goes beyond the letter and to the Spirit, what's in the heart and thoughts.
1Sa 16:7 But Jehovah said to Samuel, Do not look on his face, nor on his height, because I have refused him. For He does not see as man sees. For man looks on the outward appearance, but Jehovah looks on the heart.
It's not okay for our minds to be filled with rubbish, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit and are to be developing the mind of God.
Php 2:5 For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
1Co 6:17 But he being joined to the Lord is one spirit.
v. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in you, whom you have of God? And you are not your own,
v. 20 for you are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
Here is an email that has a bit about this in it.
http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm -----------------------------------
[Ray Replies]
God treated Adam and Eve in the same way that the Law of Moses treated Israel. There were numerous laws given to Israel, and the breaking of some of them involved the penalty of death. Now as long as no one actually committed the act that was illegal, no penalty was enacted. One could look at another man's pretty wife, just as long as he didn't touch her or commit physical adultery with her.
God treated Eve the same way. As long as she kept her lust of the flesh and lust of the eyes and pride of life TO HERSELF, God did not punish her. But once she committed an actual act of law-breaking (in this case disobey the law that God had enacted regarding eating the forbidden fruit), then the PENALTY CAME IN TO PLAY.
Today, under the New Covenant, we are guilty for merely THINKING a sinful thought. Now it is a sin to just "look upon a woman to lust after her" even if one doesn't ACTUALLY commit adultery with her. It is a thing of the SPIRIT, and not just the letter.
God be with you,
Ray
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Arcturus,
Your posts were refreshing to see. There are those who offer blankets to the cold striken and then there are those who offer a statement of " I hope you warm up." Yours was a blanket. Many thanks for what you said. :)
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Saying something is not true doesn't make it, not true. ~ :D
Paul, in his ministry, refuted his opponents. Refute means rebuttal with evidence.
As the rules here in BTF prohibits teaching, ...I can only offer the following observation. ~ :)
ANY ONE can do a Google search and some basic investigation into what science has discovered in the last 2000 years to bring you up to speed. ANY ONE can come to understand more than you think you know. Iron sharpens iron. A sharp blade will test the mettle of any weapon formed against it.
All of us, at some time, will feel the pang of fear to not go where proverbial angels fear to tread. By example, does anyone one think Ray Smith got his insights by going along with the crowd? Does anyone think Ray is embarrassed that his cancer might perhaps make fools of some medical practitioners before the great I AM Presence of God, who alone makes the wisdom of the world foolishness. Ray will be dead when God says so, and not a second before God says so!
What's that got to do with this Tread ~ Everything! Death might be the most intrusive thought, carrying the wages of sin, that a human being can experience. This thread is not meaningless or trivial. It raises a real finger on the pulse, issue for us all.
At Hospice, I saw a man who's body was withered and beginning to blacken in the appearance of deaths inevitable decomposition, yet his spirit and mind and soul, remained. I was given the assignment to read from the bible to Jack. Whilst so doing, he lifted his gnarled hand up, to indicate to me to stop after a hour loud reading from Matthew. Boy, was I grateful! My voice was getting strained.
Jack beckoned me to get close to him to hear a request.
His face was black and blue at his temples and his mouth showed a blackened tongue. Veins were visible in his temples as he looked like he had died ages ago.
The nursing sister had already prepared me for the shocking sight of Jack, and told me he was an unusual case indeed. He simply didn't want to die and was hanging on. I didn't think that Jack might have been terrified or scared out of his skull.
I bent over to Jack and put my ear to his mouth, closing my eyes to listen intently.
“Pray for me, please....” rasped Jack
A cold shiver shot up from my ankles right up my back and before my closed eyes I could see, as in a dream, a vast and dark abyss. On the far side, stood a figure that appeared to be Jesus as he might appear in an artist's impression. Dressed in white and with open arms, looking at Jack laying on his death bed.
“Trust Jesus!” were the words that shot out of my heart, soul, mind and very being.
“Trust JESUS!” I said again with a voice so strong it didn't sound like my own and certainly went beyond what was appropriate in the small room reverberating to my loudness. And again...
“TRUST JESUS!”
That was it...
Jack replied that he had heard the prayer of his Gethsemane...that night he died.
So whenever a bad thought comes...an invasive or frightening mental battle with thoughts of sin, death or we may feel or see that abysmal dark presence before our minds that we know we cannot get across because they are too powerful, too vast and too overwhelming to pass over...as in thoughts that will not let us go, that cling to us in fear, threat and ugliness....then...that's your lot...said the clay to the potter...
Our thoughts will die, will pass, and will not bring us into the depths of the dark abyss as we....Trust Jesus.
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace AS YOU TRUST IN HIM. Romans 15: 13
I don't break rules here and I sure appreciate what Ray has uncovered regarding the whole truth, the real truth and nothing but the truth about the malpractices of Babylon.
The following Scripture for me, rightly or wrongly, best invites and is encouragement of the neutral stance: Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Your kindness helps encourage and is kind and loving soul River!
Another stance on this way of thinking is held in full view in the teaching Winning Souls for Jesus at http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
It is not my job to teach or convince anyone though uninvited opinion has been offered to me to get my own Blog.
So here’s telling you all...I SO appreciate your kindness, consideration and insight into sensitive expression of mature empathy so thank you so very much for letting me let off a little steam, mist, tears....and joy...thank you!
God bless you always everywhere all the time!
I have nothing to add to the experience of unwelcome thoughts and feelings as described as the heading of this Thread...Intrusive thoughts...As humans we suffer.
All my earlier to do lists, I have found are meaningless. I have no, to do list and no judgment nor condemnation to offer either.
Jack and I were appointed a most humbling experience and blessing and I sure do know this, that Jack is a friend I very much look forward to rejoicing with in the Kingdom of God prepared for us ALL. Who knows, Jack might have been a real piece of work in his life time, that at his end, drew a mere stranger, to pray over him...who knew nothing of his past or his personality either! Boy oh boy, we are going to laugh if it’s true he might have been a real so and so! I was the sole soul praying aloud at his death bed on the eve of Jack....Trusting Jesus as he may never have experienced doing before!
Pray for one another...ah...there might be a new, what to do...for a, to do list, not to give out, or recommend or advocate, but to practice...ah...yea..THAT'S it!~ ;D
God BLESS us all, each and every one.
Arc
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Saying something is not true doesn't make it, not true. ~ :D
Paul, in his ministry, refuted his opponents. Refute means rebuttal with evidence.
As the rules here in BTF prohibits teaching, ...I can only offer the following observation. ~ :)
ANY ONE can do a Google search and some basic investigation into what science has discovered in the last 2000 years to bring you up to speed. ANY ONE can come to understand more than you think you know. Iron sharpens iron. A sharp blade will test the mettle of any weapon formed against it.
Deborah, for as much as you have just written, you could have simply explained your previous comments re: neutral observer. And the reason why you didn't has nothing to do with the forum rules...the forum rules didn't stand in your way when you brought this up in the first place, so I don't see why they would stand in your way now.
Ian asked about negative thoughts that come to him, and you replied about a 'neutral observer' who neither approves or condemns. When confronted about the identity of this 'neutral observer' you beat around the bush using many words except the ones to explain your comments. Then you want to put the onus on 'ANY ONE' else to search for the meaning of your very own words.
What good is it to use many lofty words and phrases, to speak in poetic terms, but yet have no meaning at all? And how can you be credible for sound advice when you avoid any and all questions regarding your comments? It is like the Shakespeare quote: 'full of sound and fury, signifying nothing'.
A little truth will go a lot farther than a lot of empty talk.
Marques
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There is no "fury" in my words...your Shakespear quote misses the mark.~ :D
My simple explanation will have to surfice, that being that neutral neither lends itself to either, good or bad, positive nor negative influence.
The contribution made to the thread comes from my heart to help assist the pain and experience of nasty thoughts that just don't let up, and the more you try the more they strengthen.
By the way, I love lofty words, poetry and beautiful symmetry in thought made visible through the artistic construction of ideas held in sentences, chapters and verses. I can not apologise for not impressing you, Marques. It just isn't my ambition to do so. ~ :D
The beautiful Scripture of whatsoever things are lovely is certainly a Truth of great significance and depth.
Arc
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Hey Deborah,
I will make a few comments about your comments
My simple explanation will have to surfice, that being that neutral neither lends itself to either, good or bad, positive nor negative influence.
Everyone knows what neutral means? How in any way does this describe Jesus and his work??
You have yet to explain your comment.
Rev22:11 is not an excuse for being a neutral party in anything?
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
That in bold is judgment of those people in Rev 22:11!
The unjust will no longer be unjust
The filthy will be made clean
The righteous will be refined
The Holy will be as pure as gold
These are not neutral works of an neutral observer.
Its funny you say these things because there are many in the church who believe God has no hand in the life of anyone. But stands as a neutral observer awaiting his opportunity or invitation to act or to be an inclusive part of someones life.
The contribution made to the thread comes from my heart to help assist the pain and experience of nasty thoughts that just don't let up, and the more you try the more they strengthen.
Just because you contribute doesn't make your comments helpful.
Many here contribute from the heart but all their sayings don't edify the body of believers here.
Nothing against them personally but not everyone has helpful words for everyone and just because you felt compelled to comment doesn't make your comments any more helpful to them or mine to you. We all take it for what its worth. Could be gold, could be dung! The receiver is to judge not the giver. The treasure you posses may not be worth anything to someone. Can't assume that everything that comes out of your mouth to be gold.
By the way, I love lofty words, poetry and beautiful symmetry in thought made visible through the artistic construction of ideas held in sentences, chapters and verses.
That's fine and dandy but be responsible for the things you say.
You have given no explanation as to why you think Jesus is a neutral observer or whoever this observer is?. Scripture and verse for that statement would be helpful.
Rev 22:11 and Mathew 5:39 are verses you can't use, neither implies that Jesus is neutral.
Also I assume you think Jesus is this person because you quote verses that were inspired from Christ to John.
Hope to hear some clarification soon
Antaiwan
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What I see here is carnality playing the game of "I'm right and you're wrong, and I'm going to show you, bless God!"
That is directed at all who are heaving around heated words and accusations.
Using Scripture to boost one's ego is a big no-no - far worse than the neutral observer analogy. "Who is guilty of the greater sin?"
I'm not siding with anyone - it just seems that there are those who have become a little too opinionated for their own good. Me thinks they doth protest too much. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we are all on the same mission. Don't kill each other over the minute details.
"Every man worketh out his own salvation" - God works with everyone on an individual basis.
Also, remember James 1:19-20, the use of angry words will accomplish nothing righteous.
(WNT)
Jas 1:19 You know this, my dearly-loved brethren. But let every one be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to be angry.
Jas 1:20 For a man's anger does not lead to action which God regards as righteous.
In Him,
John
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Hello,
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?
Sometimes I will have thoughts about harming others. I know a lot of people have this problem.
It is difficult making the thoughts go away. Sometimes when I have thoughts, I get anxious and try not to dwell on them, leading me to think about them more.
Where and why do people have these thoughts?
I was considering... "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
Some insight would be appreciated...
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?
Echoing.
ANSWER: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
It's as full and simple an explanation as any found and it appears you trust those words, as we all do.
But there are some people who get really upset, even suicidal about certain thoughts. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?
The answer from scripture above explains it for you, for me, for all of us here, and for others who have been given from God the faith and trust in scripture. For others, perhaps, they don't know these words that "from within the heart.........-" Regardless, even though we know these words and have been given the knowledge of their truth, sometimes, it doesn't make it any easier to not be upset about some of my thoughts, so there's really no difference between 'them' and 'us'............unless one is past the point of getting upset about -bad thoughts-........and I'd be more concerned if that were true than anything else.
Even with inflation that doesn't make for 1 cent worth, but it yours anyway.
gk
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John,
It's not simply about who's right and who's wrong. It's asking someone to explain their comments. We should be allowed to do that in a discussion board.
Too many times, we use mumbo-jumbo talk in describing spiritual things. But Paul commands that we use sound speech, sound doctrine. How can we claim to be credible witnesses to the Truth when no one can understand us and we belittle anyone who asks us to explain our words? Would any of us given Ray the time of day if he talked in mumbo-jumbo but then belittled anyone who didn't understand? He has thousands of emails where he takes time to explain himself...I think we can do that for our own comments as well from time to time. That's all.
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Being in the world not OF the world might help give a little more light ~ :)...
Contending with assumptions, false understanding and slander isn't edifying.
Arc
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John you sure sound as if you have taken a side even though you try to conceal it.
One of your scriptures does resonate: "But let every one be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to be angry."
Seems to me that many sometimes want to spout out their side to show how much they think they know, without necessarily thinking about the purpose of edification of the brethren.
So many times someone asks a question and by half way through the thread the subject has been hijacked.
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Hello,
I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?
Some insight would be appreciated...
This is probably one of those times that I should think in terms of 'measure twice, cut once', or in this case think twice and keep silent. But my
A-B-C mind keeps dwelling on the question. So here goes:
From a 'biblical perspective'??
If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective? If that's true then the cause and effect would/could be traced to.........
An example: Ray says 'suicide' isn't a self-determined decision.
Now before any of you start jumping my case, well, just remember, I'm a real rose petal flower kind of guy, heart on my sleeve. Go easy. ;D
gk
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To be “neutral” means unbiased, non aligned or not taking sides.
To be an “observer” means to witness or notice.
To “notice” means observe, discern, detect or be aware of.
To be a neutral observer means to be an unbiased, non aligned, not taking sides witness.
Keeping the bond of peace works for me.
Arc
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Hi gk
Sorry for leap frogging over your question...maybe someone will come along and give you something worthwhile...~ :)
Arc
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To be “neutral” means unbiased, non aligned or not taking sides.
To be an “observer” means to witness or notice.
To “notice” means observe, discern, detect or be aware of.
To be a neutral observer means to be an unbiased, non aligned, not taking sides witness.
As multiple members have asked, where in the scriptures does it describe Jesus in this way? Or anyone else?
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Hi GK and Ian. Ray's 'Guilty of All' study is full of good teaching on the subject. Had the circumstances/causes been different, you could have been a Jim Jones clone, and I could have been another 'Pol Pot'. We are what we are by the will of God. We're His workmanship AND He's not finished with us yet. What our thoughts 'do' is let US know the state of our hearts. God is not surprised. It's not an excuse to remain in sin, but it's a huge truth that ALL have sinned. It's another huge truth that God created us this way. It's another huge truth that we are PRE-DESTINED to good works.
We've ALL been subjected to vanity...and not willingly. This goes back to Ian's original questions. Evil thoughts spring up from a heart that has them. They aren't just floating around at random. From there it's all about 'response'. For me, that response had to begin with honesty. That is my perspective. That had to be followed up with Truth. That is God's perspective. I know an astounding amount about me. I'm still learning about God--and the lion's share of THAT learning is BECAUSE He's made me who and what I am.
Thank GOD He's not done molding this clay.
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1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour
This is the dark forced passed on thru Eve to the all the generation till now. This is the man of sin roaring inside to come out. It comes out in all forms from our darkened hearts, especially resentment and unrighteous judgements, the hidden secret judgements that ails man.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is the good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
We must be about renewing the mind and praying without ceasing. Talking the talk is easy walking it is not so easy. There are generational curses also that cause bad thoughts. Watching the thoughts in meditation and just observing it BUT not engaging them, just watching them as a video and then letting them go. Forcus away "Be still and know" that God is God.
Peace and BLessings
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If we were 'good' and just 'thoughts' were evil, that would be fine advise. But we're not good, and our thoughts prove this.
But maybe I should just speak for myself.
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Hi Seaofglass,
1 Pet 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour
This is the dark forced passed on thru Eve to the all the generation till now. This is the man of sin roaring inside to come out. It comes out in all forms from our darkened hearts, especially resentment and unrighteous judgements, the hidden secret judgements that ails man.
Satan/devil is a spirit being and not the beast within us. We do have a beast/man of sin inside to deal with and that is our fleshly carnal human nature. But Satan is something else all together. Here is a email that explains this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1707.0.html ---------------------------
So then you really do believe that the "carnal mind" of all humanity will be chained for a thousand years (Rev. 20:2)? and that Paul turned over the carnal mind to be destroyed of the carnal mind (I Cor. 5:5)? What I would like you to share with me your Scriptural answer to these two Scriptures? Your theory that "Satan is the carnal mind" does not quite fit all Scriptures, does it?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11711.0.html ---------------------------
In Job here where it states that Satan presented ‘himself’ to God, couldn’t that be exactly what Ray teaches, a higher spiritual meaning, a spiritual reality couched in a physical setting.
COMMENT: NO, and that it why I included it as part of the Scriptures which show that Satan is NOT just our human carnal mind.
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. {Satan: Heb. the adversary} {among: Heb. in the midst of} 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? {considered: Heb. set thy heart on} 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? Job1.6-10
Did the Lord and Satan really talk using human words with a human voice in some physical far away place?
COMMENT: It really doesn't say, does it? Did they speak in Archaic English or ancient Hebrew? It doesn't say, does it?
Does Scripture here literally mean Satan was physically walking to and fro in the earth?
(Notice it says IN the earth?) People are made from the dust of the earth. The carnal mind is in the earth (people).
COMMENT: Satan is "spirit," so why do you suggest that if he walks, he is "physically walking?"
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There are generational curses also that cause bad thoughts. Watching the thoughts in meditation and just observing it BUT not engaging them, just watching them as a video and then letting them go.
Here is a email on general curses.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3013.0.html ---------
This is all superstitious nonsense. You are not under any generational curses, or back luck or any such thing.
"There is therefore NOW [at this time] NO CONDEEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh [the threat of generalizational curses and such fleshly nonsense], but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).
Heb 4:16--" Let us therefore come BOLDLY unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. "
God be with you,
Ray
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Marques
You have been answered three times.
My words have been easy to understand, not said with vanity to decieve, beguile or entice.
You might caution against appearing as 1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings ~ :)
Arc
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In the spirit of telling a personal story, akin to Arc telling her of her neat experience with Jack, when I was a teenager and maybe a little while longer I used to be tormented by blasphemous swearing intrusive thoughts, that I hated and didn't want, and troubled me greatly. I was a "good' Baptist boy and to have God Da-- and all kind of things popping into my mind, even worse things involving the f word and such in regards to God and Jesus, it was upsetting. But it went completely away. I have no compulsons or intrusive thoughts like that at all, anymore. None.
I do not know if it was a carnal mind thing rebelling or testing, or a spiritual force. But it is at teh core, fear based. So when I could laugh at them, that when they had NO POWER over me at all, that it completely went away. When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY. Your subconscious only torments you if it can. If it has no effect, it stops tormenting you. Fighting them actively only encourages them. its like anything in the subconscious realm. It is only when your fear is dead to you, when you have outgrown the anxiety, does the need to test the fear go away. When those intusive thoughts no longer bother you at all, or cause you to give them any heed, they will disappear.
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Doug, you have presented insight in the wonder of reckoning oneself dead, and, there is so much to die to! ~
The Scriptures say we are to judge ourselves.
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
This explains the way that Paul judges himself, as I understand it, not by the standards opinions or view points of MAN, but by the understanding, knowledge and experience Paul has of GOD.
God IS author and finisher OF Faith.
The expounded teachings that expose the myth of Free Will, show that we do not have any control of who we are, where we are or how we are. THAT we are, is God's department. Sure we are accountable, but that is not the point right now. The point is, we have no control over our thoughts or over tomorrow or even over the now.
When human thoughts arise that are offensive, obnoxious or sinful, then, in harmony to and with the teaching of Free Will being a Myth, I have had the occasional experience that comes in the joy of experiencing that God IS in control. The experience is one of being dead as you express Doug, to the thought or the temptation to yield to the provocation to act out the thought or worse to become the thought or be deceived into worshiping what I think. This is, for me, maybe not for everyone else, is explained by Ray in his expounding the fact that King Nebuchadnezzar. Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY majesty?
Nebuchadnezzar BELIEVED his own thought!
Being mindful of God in regard to our thoughts and drawing near to God, reminds me of this beautiful Scripture.
Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
That is not covertly or maliciously aimed at you or anyone Doug. Just a loving description of the Scripture that puts into our view, or consciousness if you like, the thought that it is possible to draw nigh to God...What a beautiful truth of single not double mindedness. God surely is One.
This experience in knowing God controls all, makes thoughts seem dead and self, reckoned dead also which is a GIFT not an acquisition nor a merit nor available if you follow a law or to do list. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html "How hard is it to be saved, shows God is One and He is the One that saves. God is the giver of all gifts! Yet it is a very amazing experience that for me has been all too brief and all too far between!
There is no fa-it accompli nor are there any fully born again’s or complete Jesus Christ’s in the line up of homo sapiens, yet God can give us to receive the gift to experience that glimmer and a brief flash of the good deposit given through the Holy Spirit dwelling within.
It is a most wonderful experience to feel and EXPERIENCE that God is in charge of me and of all. My thoughts, wrong ones and beautiful ones, given to recognition of Him, not as God is evil if I think off the mark, but that God is PERFECT, kills all ulterior thoughts and makes them benign and not in self aggrandizement for beautiful thoughts or lofty ideas, but as in...All IS of God.. and everything else is beside the point.
For me it is one thing to academically believe a thing and quite another to experience it!. The conclusive experience of accepting and EXPERIENCING that God is in control...goes beyond words and to try to say anything about it can spark off suspicion, doubts and fear.
So here is the foundation, in harmony to and with the teaching of Free Will being a Myth, it would stand to reason that our thoughts, IF we believe and accept what Ray teaches, then our thoughts are not something in which we have control or will power.
I believe we identify with our thoughts, our job, our home, our possessions OR we identify with God, as Gods own, not our own property, but Gods. That's what I mean Doug and I think I know what you mean too, if I may be so bold as to say so! ~
Arc
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Ahem..excuse me John, but I happen to love quantum physics. I would say that the beauty of the female form in one realm is as fascinating as the paradoxes and powers of quantum physics in the other! yes, both women and quantum physics are paradoxes :) :D
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Here's what I got so far:
Ian’s Question 1. I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?Arc: Thoughts are part of the human condition
Kat: Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds
Gk: If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective?
Ian’s Question 2. Where and why do people have these thoughts?Dave in Tenn: thoughts do come out of the hearts of men
Gk: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
Ian’s Question 3. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?Kat: We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting.
Gk: I… would …. just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless
Judy: Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen.
Joel: Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.
Lewis: When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away. That's His job, not mine.
DougE6: When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY.
Not sure if all of the other postings including mine, help answer Ian's questions. Perhaps Ian will let us know.
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I get these "intrusive thoughts" when I see women.
I hold God responsible because He made women so pretty. What does He think I'm going to think about--Quantum Physics? ;D ;D ;D
HAHA!!!!!! That was priceless, John. Absolutely priceless. ;D
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johan from kentucky, you are hilarious!
claudia
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Excellent minutes of the Meeting onelovedread! ~ :D and the men folks High Spirit, is marvelous! ;D
Arc ~ :D :)
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Here's what I got so far:
Ian’s Question 1. I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?Arc: Thoughts are part of the human condition
Kat: Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds
Gk: If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective?
Ian’s Question 2. Where and why do people have these thoughts?Dave in Tenn: thoughts do come out of the hearts of men
Gk: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).
Ian’s Question 3. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?Kat: We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting.
Gk: I… would …. just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless
Judy: Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen.
Joel: Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.
Lewis: When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away. That's His job, not mine.
DougE6: When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY.
Not sure if all of the other postings including mine, help answer Ian's questions. Perhaps Ian will let us know.
OLD: Good, glad you did that.
Seems to me in some of the captured statements of #3 that a certain amount of 'free-will' is being imposed as possibility for a desired course/action.
But then again, maybe not.
gk
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Hi gk,
It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'
But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.
Sometimes it's good to state the obvious :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey John of K. ....have you been hanging out with Longhorn?.... :D :D ;D
Arc
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[ I think women are slightly more attractive than quarks/quote] OK quarks I will grant you...but have you ever seen P Orbitals? http://chemistry.about.com/od/atomicmolecularstructure/a/porbital.htm LOL ;)
OK seriously, there must exist a bridge in nature between the spirit and the physical. Every time we think a thought there is a rearrangement of electrons and quantum states taking place in our brain. There is a physical phenomenom that accompanies/produces each and every thought, without which the thought would not take place. But then how does Gods spirit or our spirit influence matter to make these thoughts possible? Through the wonderful bizarre counter intuitive beautiful world of quantum mechanics! Quantum mechanics is the doorway through which spirit interfaces with matter, among many other things.
It is a fascinating area. It is experinmentally proven beyond any doubt that the observers knowledge of a quantum state can influence outcome of a physical experiments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
Doug
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Hi gk,
It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'
But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.
Sometimes it's good to state the obvious :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I'm the last person on this forum that you need reply and justify any posting you make. You know there's no free-will, everyone else here that makes postings seem to know there's no freewill, and God willing even I, in some future day, will with heart and soul know beyond knowing there is no free-will. I long for it. No shame here and any past posting I've made will be a witness to the wresting match I've had with that portion of Ray's teachings.
If Ray says it's one of the hardest teachings to come to grips with, that's my man. And that's that.
My posting wasn't so much for any justification, but, for spiritual support to anyone else in BT-Land who may be having just as hard a time as I have understanding all things really do begin, exist, have co-hesion, purpose, and end with God. Period.
For some that's a breeze, for others, it's the longest-hardest mountain in the path given the exposure we have today of what seems like end-less bad news and attempting to rationalize all of it with God's greater mercy and purpose for better. It's a hard course of study. And God bless'em if they exist cause I understand.
Hopefully it helps Ian, at the very least, since he asked questions.
gk
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Hi gk,
It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'
But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.
Sometimes it's good to state the obvious :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I'm the last person on this forum that you need reply and justify any posting you make. You know there's no free-will, everyone else here that makes postings seem to know there's no freewill, and God willing even I, in some future day, will with heart and soul know beyond knowing there is no free-will. I long for it. No shame here and any past posting I've made will be a witness to the wresting match I've had with that portion of Ray's teachings.
If Ray says it's one of the hardest teachings to come to grips with, that's my man. And that's that.
My posting wasn't so much for any justification, but, for spiritual support to anyone else in BT-Land who may be having just as hard a time as I have understanding all things really do begin, exist, have co-hesion, purpose, and end with God. Period.
For some that's a breeze, for others, it's the longest-hardest mountain in the path given the exposure we have today of what seems like end-less bad news and attempting to rationalize all of it with God's greater mercy and purpose for better. It's a hard course of study. And God bless'em if they exist cause I understand.
Hopefully it helps Ian, at the very least, since he asked questions.
gk
Hey gk,
Can I throw something out that I think proves mankind does not have free will? You may have already considered it. If so just disregard what I'm saying.
The Scriptures say that there are none righteous, no not one. That all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And other Scriptures that show all mankind have sinned.
I haven't met all mankind, but the ones I have met have all done some things wrong.
If man has free will, complete freedom to decide and choose to do good, then would not some men have made the free will choice to do good?
In fact, if there are two choices--1) do good, 2) do bad---then at random, wouldn't 50% of mankind freely decide to do good and the other 50% freely decide to do bad?
But since all of us have sinned, does that not prove that there is something else at work here? That we have been designed to sin? That it comes natural to us? And that we do not have the free will to decide to go against the grain and do good?
I stole the above ideas somewhere from Ray (my bad :D), but are not those ideas a compelling proof for no free will? What do you think?
John
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Hi GK,
John from Kentucky makes an excellent point. In addition to what he said, I would pose this question. We all have our "thorns in the flesh" - those sins that do so easily beset us. For some, it may be hatred; for others, it may be pride and arrogance; and yet, for others it may be some type of sexual sin; etc. If a person had free will, wouldn't that person have been able to choose not to have that sin? They would have been able to "will" themselves out of that sin, wouldn't they?
Just a thought-provoking question intended to help :)
In Him,
John
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Late last night, I received an encouraging email from one of our sisters here, who encouraged me and lifted my heart. She is one of many of us, who currently is burdened with inordinate pain and suffering. Her message meant a lot and her silent agony can be mirrored into all of our hearts in empathy, gentleness and care, by association.
So here is something for you, and all of us, who are not unacquainted with pain or grief. These thoughts, not presented as theological discourse or teaching but just, as though we are all together, somewhat in the dark, and gathered around a camp fire, sharing stories if you like...
Lets look at two words.
Consciousness and preference. Those words can be like two cement and gravel rocks in the mouth. Lets toss them out and eat a marsh mellow instead.
We are all conscious and we all have preferences.
God determines our consciousness. We are conscious with the presence and in the presence of God who is awake, conscious, and who never sleeps.
So God is awake and it might be considered that most of us are dreaming....a nightmare.
We might be said to be asleep in a dark dream where our conscious perception is that we are separate from God. We start to wake when it begins to finally dawn on us that when and as we recognize our unity with one another and our oneness with Christ....let THEM be one, is NOT a vain nor empty, failed request put in red ink, written in the mind and soul, heart and reality of Christ, the Son of God. Them, is US, you and I.
Consciousness is, not, free will. Lets separate the two one by one.
We are not conscious by human self determination. Our bodies are automatically programmed to breathe without our conscious efforts and the heart beats without our permission. Homeostasis is a recognized function of the body that is designed to send white blood cells to the site of any casualty and the immune system is already in place in the body.
Doug you said something about the bridge between the body and the spirit, interfacing between the two. Draw that blanket about your shoulders and let the fire light continue to give you the Light that is dawning in your seeing into the Quantum field, can not be anything but of the consciousness that is of God, from God, and out of God.
Can the bridge be within our consciousness, as the Spirit of God, fully awake, fully switched on, in our hearts that might be hardened or dysfunctional, asleep or dreaming, yet the spark of life is in all the living.
Not all the physically living are awake. Let the dead sleep on...let sleeping dogs lie....let he who is filthy remain filthy still...God will wake them up...
In this hushed little enclave of veterans who are gathered from across the globe, who have never even met nor seen one another in the flesh, yet still as gathered we are in our unity of agreement that what Ray has lit in the fire that warms our souls, there is the Light of God and the Peace of Christ that liberates us from the dungeons of Babylonian incarceration.
We know there are vast terrains in the mind that have been dug up and cultivated by theologians for the past 2000 years and the thunder of their waters, they can and do stir up obscurity to dirty the most crystal clear thinking. We cannot with a cup of pure water, change the muddy tide of the worlds thinking.
God said, I will give you a heart of flesh to replace YOUR heart of STONE...that’s information to the human race not just one or two or three humans, though certainly, I think that one or two humans, metaphorically speaking, have been and are being operated upon as God says, judgment on the house of God is now, for those who are His house.
The Spirit of God is our liberty in Christ which simply means we are all vessels holding the precious means to unite in harmony rather than stay in disharmony and separation, to the perfect will of God which is...which is...
...to have Sons and Daughters in his image...
...which is...which is....
...love...that doesn’t exclude anyone but is inclusive of everyone...
Yet hardened hearts, and refusal of the gift of is in sync to the design of God for our mortal bodies of hardened hearts seeking to be god in ways that suit limited perceptions and ego preferences of limited thinking. This is not stated to insult anyone as this is a process for everyone and all humans. Non get out of the process. Jesus was out, got back in through birth and showed us a thing or two through resurrection...
That experience that is etched in the heart of Christ who’s experience and heart contains us all.. and in whom we have our BEING....not of the flesh but of His Spirit and of His Faith.
Our being is not a puppet on a string, but a living breathing, thinking feeling consciousness contained in a limited, imperfect vessel of human conditioning.
We find great comfort to look past our imperfections. In fact, by contrast to looking for imperfections we find great peace to look above into the promise where God has saved us all, right down to the last insane, fear driving maniac, despot. It is a test for sure.
We are purged in the bright fires of Gods BEING and God’s immortal eternity through which He designs his kids to join Him as ONE. God will not be disappointed!
The way is inside not outside. It is within not without, and for sure David our brother said it in royal dialogue as and when he wrote...The Lord is my Sheppard and I shall NOT WANT...
The word WANT is entirely applicable to the human ego that wants more, more, more and more. It is the insatiable beast that drives the soul of mankind to the pits and in there, is the spark of God that shall save, defend and prosper against every weapon formed against us...but not before every weapon has been formed against us.
Mankind, humankind the 666, the homosapien, wants equality with God...okay...God suffered...He did. Ray highlights the fact. The Scriptures endorse it...We have to get past, overcome and rise up by the Power, Grace and Spirit of Father, into His Being that is within you and I and every fast asleep human being that is spiraling into a nightmare of death, pain and suffering. Death is sleep, Jesus said. God says wake up...but hey...it is God that does the waking up just as surely as it was He who woke Jesus up in the tomb where his body once lay.
Not by might but by His Spirit, is one of John of K’s favorite Scriptures....No stone will be left unturned and no heart of stone will be left unturned either....All will be saved.
What has this got to do with free will and not getting it? Everything.
Are we not here to go through exactly what we are ordained to experience? Aren’t we in the game plan, the stage of life, if you want to quote Shakespeare and our little act has been written? Behind the stage of life after the curtain has fallen upon our act, the behind the stage celebration and party afterwards is going to be a humdinger!
Can you get out of your life? No..not unless the script has written it.
Can you be someone else? No..not unless you have a part that says you have multiple personality disorder.
Can you choose your role in life? Not in this life. You get what you got!...and there is accountability..for sure there is....I just don't believe accountability is a big dark omen of agony that at first it may appear.
Did you agree to come into this dark, dungeon of a deep dark nightmare called the human condition...well...Jesus did...and He came as the much awaited Son of the Living God! So what’s next?
Are we as Jesus is in this world...but not in the world to come...maybe...just until this act ends that is...when the Sons and Daughters of God are to be made manifest and the choirs of angels that are singing can be joined in the rapture of our souls in symphonic harmony in celebration of our Perfect Father and Son. "Rapture", being a hijacked word, made captive and prisoner to Babylon that has another meaning that tells of bliss, joy, delight and all the whatsoever things are lovely, loveliness!
Enter Ray Smith...we wait in hushed abated breath for the blast of the Spirit of God to enter this room where the Disciples are gathered together to hear, feel and celebrate again, the insights of our Glorious Father God and Son!
The morning is coming. Everyone who are fast asleep, will wake up together. Those who are stirring and seeing Hope dawn, Peace approach and Love’s assurance that no nightmare in human life, is bigger nor more Powerful than the Blazing Light of God who never sleeps, we are whispering towards that Light of the world, that we are.
There is nothing to believe, in this world. The light of our consciousness, alights this world in full Technicolor of a full blown dream from which we will all awake, into the Glory of God. Some will want to carry on dreaming and others with thank God they woke up....1st and 2nd Resurrection....
Now that my verbosity may have lulled a few of you reading this to sleep again...some might even have a headache looking for clues of heresy, but regardless if you think this says nothing and means less...thanks for listening...May we all have happy dreams and a happy awakening...into that Light in which abides no darkness, in assurance that He that is within you is greater...than all who are in the dark, or asleep! ~ :)
With thanks to BTF for permitting this post on the board of General Discussion. This forum area DOES NOT necessarily represent the views of L. Ray Smith or Bible-Truths.com.
Arc
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I reckon three pages is enough.
Ian, I hope you got some answer worth hearing.