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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Paul on March 08, 2008, 02:06:28 PM
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And I'm not asking if it contradicts with the original manuscripts; I'm asking if it contradicts itself.
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You'll need to read "Which Bible Is the Best" link
http://bible-truths.com/bible.htm
Ches
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Contradictions only occur through the carnal mind. As Ray teaches, there is an explanation for everything in Gods Word. The challenge is to know God's Word and to know God. Mans ways are not God's Ways and mans thoughts and reasoning's are not God's thoughts.
We are told to study God's Word and that we should compare spiritual with spiritual but this does not mean come to your own conclusions! Doctrines have to be true to the Word of God or they are man made imaginations. It is doctrine or conclusions that have to be put to the test. We are also told by God to test the spirits. We have to do this because to accept convoluted ideas is to embark down the same crooked path of human reasoning's which lead away from God not towards Him.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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As Ray teaches, there is an explanation for everything in Gods Word.
Ray teaches that the KJV isn't God's Word.
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Ray teaches that the KJV is a Latin Bible! :D
Quote : The King James Bible is a LATIN BIBLE! And virtually all modern English Bibles are virtually clones of all the errors found in the King James.http://bible-truths.com/bible.htm
Thanks for the link Ches!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Paul,
Where does he say that, do you have a quote available?
I know Ray teaches (truthfully) that there have been and remain some errors in the KJV but also that there is no perfect translation. I remember a quote from the Conference I attended in Mobile last November and he said it at other times that the KJV is actually a pretty good translation once you know the truth about how they translated "hell" and "eternal" and a few other things. As a matter of fact it is a KJV that he primarily uses for teaching, bible studies, his articles and at the Conferences. He will refer to others such as Rotherham's, the NIV and a couple more for clarifying some verses.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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he said it at other times that the KJV is actually a pretty good translation once you know the truth about how they translated "hell" and "eternal" and a few other things.
Right, he holds the KJV against the original hebrew and greek.
My question is if one were to go by the KJV alone, would they find it to be a contradictory volume?
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Also read "is everlasting scriptural" Christians eyes gloss over when you point out that one.
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All translations will appear to have contradictions not only the KJV. Why? Because if one looks at the Word of God through carnal eyes it just does not make sence.
Here is an excerpt that explains this better. http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm
RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE
If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.
A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."
And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)
Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:
"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)
"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)
"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)
"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)
Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:
" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).
Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)
This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.
So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:
THE RELATIVE:
THE ABSOLUTE:
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me,
but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10)
(Comparing man with God)
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."
Even theologians admit that their free will theory is limited. So they have invented "limited free will." They use analogies like a cow on a tether or a fly in a jar or a lion in a cage. Their freedom is limited to the confines of their restraints, but within those confines they are nonetheless, free. Is this true? Is there such a thing as "limited" free will? Or is this just more theological double-talk?
Only in religion do simple words lose their meaning. Let's look at Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary: Page 963, "limited, a. Restricted." Page 682, "free, a. without restriction." So here then is what theologians want us to believe: Man has a will that is restricted without restriction.
Man does not have "limited" free will. Otherwise God would have "limited" sovereignty. Man has no free will and God has total sovereignty. Theologians try to make high what is low and try to bring low what is high. These teachings do not glorify God.
Somebody has been taking William James too seriously. God is not sitting around waiting to see what man will do through his "free will" so that He can then figure out what to do about it. Rather than conclude from the "wisdom of the world" that man has a free will (and thus deny the sovereignty of God), we must conclude that since God is sovereign, man can not and does not have a free will. This is logical, sensible, and lawful. It is Scriptural and it glorifies God.
Theologians condemn scientists for their inability to see beyond the "relative" in our universe. Surely these scientists must see that a God must be behind everything. However, except for rare persons like Dr. Einstein, they can't.
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I believe if you or I had the original hebrew, aramaic, and/or greek text, you would still find error and contradiction without THE HOLY SPIRIT.
- Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
- 2 Corinthians 3:6 - Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
There's only one version/translation to the bible. It's called the Holy Spirit version/translation and begins with you heart.
- John 3:7 - Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
By faith ask God to make you into a translation.
- Hebrews 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
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I believe if you or I had the original hebrew, aramaic, and/or greek text, you would still find error and contradiction without THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Excellent point and observation Bradigans!
Peace,
Joe
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To all,
Spiritual discernment is from GOD'S Spirit. There is no perfect Bible translation but GOD"S SPIRIT is perfect. We must desire truth above all else and only then will GOD reveal what our frail carnal nature can handle. Spiritual growth never ends and I fear we will never attain much of it in this defiled carnal body. Thank GOD for all truth we get and earnestly seek more from HIS throne of grace. My special thanks to Ray and all who fellowship at this site for aiding me in my search for HIS truths and not Bible version truths. Some of the new Bible versions scare me to death as they attempt to remove CHRIST as much as possible and pervert the truths of GOD. I agree with Ray that but for a few misinterpreted words the KJV is a good BIBLE. The Message Bible is junk.
Phil3:10
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As I recall, Ray said that the KJV is probably the most beautifully written as far as how it flows and that he likes it if you take out heaven, hell, eternity (forever and ever) references. But God's Word never contradicts. How could He? He is perfection! If I see a "contradiction" I know it is either me or the translator.
Lin
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The KJ contradicts itself when it translates aion with eternity or forever.
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As I recall, Ray said that the KJV is probably the most beautifully written as far as how it flows and that he likes it if you take out heaven, hell, eternity (forever and ever) references. But God's Word never contradicts. How could He? He is perfection! If I see a "contradiction" I know it is either me or the translator.
Lin
Make sure your translator is God's Holy Spirit.
- John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
- Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
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The KJ contradicts itself when it translates aion with eternity or forever.
King James, Rotherham, or any of the other brand names should be your translator. There's only one translation to the Bible. It's the Holy Spirit's translation. He wants to turn you.
- 2 Corinthians 3:2-3 - Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
He wants to turn you into a translation...
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Bradigans,
How very true you are when pointing out in II Corinthians 3:3 that CHRIST"S truths are not Written in ink, but with the Spirit of the LIVING GOD. With a humble spirit and a contrite heart we can discern all truth as GOD gives us understanding. Verse 5 and 6 really puts the truth in proper prospective ( 5. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of GOD.) (6. Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament, not of the letter, but of the spirit, for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.)
The end of Chapter 2 from verses 14 through 18 really discerns the difference between the old testament and the new testament and how the veil is done away in CHRIST. I would implore all to read this beautiful chapter 3 of II Corinthians as I love so very much the way Paul wraps it all up in verse 17 and 18. (17. Now the LORD is that Spirit and where the SPIRIT OF THE LORD is, there is liberty.) (18. But we ALL
with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the LORD, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the SPIRIT OF THE LORD.)
Only by GOD'S SPIRIT can we understand the mysteries of GOD. I strongly believe HE only reveals these mysteries to those HE has prepared to receive them. Thanks for your enlarging these truths of GOD.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Ray teaches that the KJV isn't God's Word.
It's not.
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Sorin,
I don't think we have GOD'S perfect word and I am sure HE planned it that way. Only if we had the SPIRIT OF GOD inspired originals would we have the true word. Every translator, translation and version thereafter would not be perfectly true to the originals due to mistakes, human error and difference in word interpretation.
GOD'S word has to be spiritually discerned and I think HE can use many versions to accomplish HIS will. I do not have much trust in any of the new versions and know the KJV is not totally correct. However, I personally trust the KJV more than any other. Our LORD works with each of us individually to aid us in HIS ways. If we earnestly and honestly seek HIM I feel HE will reveal to HIS chosen HIS truths. I surely think HE only reveals what we are capable of understanding at any one time but if we hunger and thirst after HIS word HE will provide understanding as we can assimilate them. MY faith is in HIM and HIS HOLY SPIRIT to reveal HIMSELF to me as HE sees fit to.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Hi Phil3:10,
Psalm 119:160 tells us that The Sum of His Word is Truth. Not a poorly translated Bible, written intentionally by Hell-Mongers. That, is NOT God's Word.
Young's Literal Translation
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
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I believe if you or I had the original hebrew, aramaic, and/or greek text, you would still find error and contradiction without THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Excellent point and observation Bradigans!
Peace,
Joe
YES! Excellent, excellent, excellent! Very TRUE!
Brett ;)
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- John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
- Luke 11:13 - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
IN HIS LOVE
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Psalm 119:160 tells us that The Sum of His Word is Truth. Not a poorly translated Bible, written intentionally by Hell-Mongers. That, is NOT God's Word.
Are you saying the KJV tells you you're going to hell?
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Are you saying the KJV tells you you're going to hell?
Psalm 119:160
Young's Literal Translation
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
sum /sʌm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun, verb, summed, sum·ming.
–noun
1. the aggregate of two or more numbers, magnitudes, quantities, or particulars as determined by or as if by the mathematical process of addition: The sum of 6 and 8 is 14.
2. a particular aggregate or total, esp. with reference to money: The expenses came to an enormous sum.
3. an indefinite amount or quantity, esp. of money: to lend small sums.
4. a series of numbers or quantities to be added up.
5. an arithmetical problem to be solved, or such a problem worked out and having the various steps shown.
6. the full amount, or the whole.
7. the substance or gist of a matter, comprehensively or broadly viewed or expressed: the sum of his opinions.
8. concise or brief form: in sum.
9. Mathematics.
a. the limit of the sequence of partial sums of a given infinite series.
b. union (def. 10a).
10. a summary.
I like number 6. The whole. The full amount. So if the whole of God's Word is Truth, then anything that isn't the whole, or the full amount of God's Word is NOT Truth. And if it's NOT Truth, then it isn't God's Word-for His word is Truth. "Am I going to fast for anyone?"
;)
Therefore, The KJV with it's untruthful translations, IS NOT GOD'S WORD. God would never say "forever and ever" for example, because unlike Christian Theologians, God knows how to speak. And why couldn't they translate the words properly? How did they get "Hell" out of Sheol, and or Hades? And why so many revisions, if it's "God's Word"? If it's perfect, as some claim.. ::)
And no the KJV doesn't "tell me" anything, at least I haven't yet heard it speak. Have you?
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Sorin,
I don't think we have GOD'S perfect word and I am sure HE planned it that way. Only if we had the SPIRIT OF GOD inspired originals would we have the true word. Every translator, translation and version thereafter would not be perfectly true to the originals due to mistakes, human error and difference in word interpretation.
GOD'S word has to be spiritually discerned and I think HE can use many versions to accomplish HIS will. I do not have much trust in any of the new versions and know the KJV is not totally correct. However, I personally trust the KJV more than any other. Our LORD works with each of us individually to aid us in HIS ways. If we earnestly and honestly seek HIM I feel HE will reveal to HIS chosen HIS truths. I surely think HE only reveals what we are capable of understanding at any one time but if we hunger and thirst after HIS word HE will provide understanding as we can assimilate them. MY faith is in HIM and HIS HOLY SPIRIT to reveal HIMSELF to me as HE sees fit to.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
phil3:10 you have just posted one of the most GOD inspired post that I have seen on this forum in a long time.
Example, only by GODS spirit can we understand the mysteries of GOD, the spirit that I have been touched with prevoked me to say this to you for confermation. I beleve the word of GOD can not be knowen to mortal men. you know what he said about seeing his face,To see the meaning of his words would be the same thing. If I understand this rite to know the meaning of all the word of God ,would be like a death sentance. Our father will not give any of us more than we can handle.To my understanding that is the only reason he speaks to us in parables,if there is any one out there that knowes what our father is speaking of , please dont tell me , I want to be in the kingdom of GOD but not to night. Remember when Jesus asked one of the deciples now that I have explained that parable to you do you understand? I belive it was the spokeman of the group,simon peter , said ya we got it now ! Our pastor smith says , yaa they didint have a clue.
I know that there will be some that will conter post on what I have just said , and with a lot of good scripture to prove there point , it will only prove what I have just said is truth.In the spirit of our brother and saviour Jesus Christ,my wife paula and I love all of you and yours. dewey
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phil3:10 you have just posted one of the most GOD inspired post that I have seen on this forum in a long time.
Example, only by GODS spirit can we understand the mysteries of GOD, the spirit that I have been touched with prevoked me to say this to you for confermation.
Have I, or anybody else in this thread said anything contrary to that? Do you really believe anyone on here believes that we can understand the mysteries of God without His Spirit?
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he said it at other times that the KJV is actually a pretty good translation once you know the truth about how they translated "hell" and "eternal" and a few other things.
Right, he holds the KJV against the original hebrew and greek.
My question is if one were to go by the KJV alone, would they find it to be a contradictory volume?
Who has "original" copies of the Hebrew and Greek?
Chris R.
http://bible-truths.com/bible.htm
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And I'm not asking if it contradicts with the original manuscripts; I'm asking if it contradicts itself.
Hi Paul.
You question pretty much answers itself IMO. Of course if there are translation errors which are not in the original manuscripts, then it follows it is going to contradict correctly translated scriptures.
The fact that the word Hell, understood by most to mean an eternal torture pit with flames and a guy with rams horns, a serpant tale and a firey pitch fork in his hand, is in the King james and most other popular English Bibles, contradicts ALL scripture.
Be blessed
David.