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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sozo on May 20, 2008, 11:31:59 AM
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Does anyone have any thoughts on near death experiences? I know this is a very generalized question, but I'm just wondering if anyone has done any research on this specifically. Has Ray written anything on this topic?
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There is nothing to experience when you're dead.
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Hi
Here is a couple of emails about the subject
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1737.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1737.0.html)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2063.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2063.0.html)
cheers
Dave
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Bobby, I realize their is nothing to experience when you are dead. My question is pertaining to those that have claimed to have a near death experience.
Dave, thanks for the articles you listed. Ray makes a very good point in them. And that point being that though these people may be close to death when they have these "claimed" experiences, they are not in fact DEAD. In other words, they are still alive when they have these experiences.
Let me ask a more specific question: Of those that claim to have these experiences, what about the ones that say they left their body and list details of things that are going on around them and these things are later verified to be accurate? To Ray's point...yes they are still alive, but what has taken place here? Any thoughts?
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I've wondered about this too.
But they still are not dead.
It just tells me that the body can still be alive, but the spirit can leave for a short time.
Pilots sometimes experience this when too many G's are put on the body.
There are still some things we dont know about the body/spirit/mind connection, imo.
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Satan can show people whatever God allows (or causes) him to show them.
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I don't see why in most cases this wouldn't be a case of "lucid dreams". There are too many factors to consider in order to think that any near-death "experience" would be valid. First of all, is each person seeing the same "place"? If not, WHY not? Second, Does every single person that almost dies have this experience? If not, again, WHY not? If these things are not consistant and people's "experiences" contradict each other, then this is obviously not a mystery from God. God is not the author of confusion among people. We already know and cannot question the scriptures that when it comes to actually being dead, no one experiences ANYTHING; but I don't think that's where the confusion lies. Even if you were clinically dead in the hospital, upon awaking, you can dream. It's been studied that most dreams occur in regards to your short term and long term memory communicating (in simplest terms), and that dreams are not necessarily related to the REM sleep state. You can see just about anything that your mind can fabricate in just a matter of moments that can seem to last a long time. I can assume we've all experienced only sleeping for just a few minutes and having a very detailed dream. It would also make good and explainable sense to believe that this is how no two stories of this near-death" nonsense are completely alike. How many "alien abduction" stories have you seen or heard that were any different? Do we think that this is also something that God has yet to reveal? Not quite. We know that the next galaxy over is just too far away to travel to and away from. Either way, this is a good subject to discuss, but there's too much contradiction when it comes to these stories....not to mention in SO MANY of these "I've seen hell" stories, it contradicts Scripture left and right. Is this too any different?
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Hi Sozo,
I remember a friend that was here on the forum a while ago, who was a nurse and gave a really good explanation from a medical standpoint. I searched and found it and here is what she said:
"In fact, the truth is that even though someone is technically dead because they are flat-lining and have respiratory failure, The brain is not really dead for quite a bit after that. Deterioration under normal circumstances does not really start till about 4 mins after circulation stops (there are always exceptions tho) People have been resuscitated as long as 8 mins after the machines stop detecting, without adverse effects on recovery, 16-20 mins if drowed in very very cold water (slows deterioration)
Anyway, my point is that the body tissues and fluids hold enough reserves to keep the brain going long enough for the subconscience to continue even though there are no outward vital signs. It is said that the 'hearing is the last thing to 'go' which is why we were always very respectful about what we said when performing 'last offices' on a dead person. Now, if the person is successfully resuscitated, then there is a very good chance they will retain a thought pattern of what was going on in their minds."
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=profile;u=335;sa=showPosts;start=45
I thought bring this up might help :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Does anyone have any thoughts on near death experiences? I know this is a very generalized question, but I'm just wondering if anyone has done any research on this specifically. Has Ray written anything on this topic?
Hi! Sozo
I haven't long to go now, but when I do go I want to go properly. If perchance while in the process of my going with my happy thoughts of the rewards awaiting me some idiot were to interrupt my happy departure by resuscitating me - near death experience- then, not being properly dead I'd retain those beautiful thoughts in my fading memory and be able to recall all my experiences in heaven for the admiration of all the dancing, singing and sensation seeking clowns waiting to hear all about it and make money out of it. Hallelujah! Amen!
God bless. (http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/howdypardner.gif)
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8
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My husband had went for hernia surgery he didn't improve after the surgery then his appendix burst, he had to have another surgery right away, The doctors said he may not make it.
He said he had an experience of seeing gray faceless people that was shoving him so he couldn't go any further, he said it was a scary place but this has been over 10 years and the memory is dim now.
I also believe it was just a dream, not a pleasant dream but a dream anyway.
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Satan can show people whatever God allows (or causes) him to show them.
Yep!
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I notice alot of these near death experiences people do see similar things. As in going through a long white tunnel seeing there dead relatives. Now I didn't say they all see the same things. Alot say there were floating in mid air. lots of similar things. I also seen where the experts say the brain activity still goes on after they flat line. I think it might just be death in progress.I mean do we know for sure that this isn't how the progression of death is? Yes I believe in what scripture says about death. The living know that they are going to die, but the dead know not anything. Maby we have the process of death the tunnels the dead relatives, floating etc,etc, then death.Maby God shows them these thing in order to make their passing easier. Maby this is part of God's plan. For these people not to die at that moment, but to show them these things so they do not fear death when it comes. On the other hand you have people who seen hell and Satan.and they experience a total negative experience. This would scare the hell ::) out of them. Then they would turn from their evil ways. Maby This is God's way of telling us something. Then again what do I know? I can honestly say I don't know much at all. This wouldn't be the first time I got it totally wrong and it won't be the last.
Darren
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
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Ok I can see that. (I was wrong) what a suprise. :-[
Darren
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I was just thinking about this, I hate to say this but my husband is pretty negative at times so he seemed to see the negative side of a near death since he is a strong believer in everlasting punishment.
It was easier for him to have a dream of negativity of hell it was the closest thing on his mind since he thought he was probably not good enough for heaven, or not bad enough for hell so just thinking.
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
Amen, God does not lie. He has no reason to lie to change someone's ways. His LOVE will MELT THEM as paul melted.
God bless,
Alex
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I notice alot of these near death experiences people do see similar things. As in going through a long white tunnel seeing there dead relatives. Now I didn't say they all see the same things. Alot say there were floating in mid air. lots of similar things. I also seen where the experts say the brain activity still goes on after they flat line. I think it might just be death in progress.I mean do we know for sure that this isn't how the progression of death is? Yes I believe in what scripture says about death. The living know that they are going to die, but the dead know not anything. Maby we have the process of death the tunnels the dead relatives, floating etc,etc, then death.Maby God shows them these thing in order to make their passing easier. Maby this is part of God's plan. For these people not to die at that moment, but to show them these things so they do not fear death when it comes. On the other hand you have people who seen hell and Satan.and they experience a total negative experience. This would scare the hell ::) out of them. Then they would turn from their evil ways. Maby This is God's way of telling us something. Then again what do I know? I can honestly say I don't know much at all. This wouldn't be the first time I got it totally wrong and it won't be the last.
Darren
Hi! Darren
Download " The Lake Of Fire Chapter V111 ---'What Happened To The Church That Jesus Built?" by Ray and it will answer all your questions and I'm sure put your mind at rest. The Bible warns us that these false christ's and false prophets will work convincing enough wonders to deceive even the elect. Now that is something, and he even tells us Scripturally who these false prophets and christ's are. Read it brother it's all in there.
God bless you my brother and help you in your walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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I think God will use what ever it takes to bring people to Him and if it is an experience of evil(seeing your minds eye of hell)then it will be done.I saw demons while on drugs (perhaps hallucinations )then had a psycotic experience, sure as hell put the fear of God into me.Made me have a wake up call as to all the things i'd done wrong(repentance)and called out to God to help me ,which He did ,so whatever it takes to wake ya and shake ya I'd say.peace to all :)
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A friend of mine, who happens to be a preacher, was visiting someone in the hospital. While he was there he (the preacher) "died" according to the docs---heart attack. They revived him. He was gone for a couple minutes. I asked him what happened during that time when his heart stopped beating and he stopped breathing. His reply......nothing. This same preacher has repeated stated that as soon as we stop breathing we will be in heaven or hell. I didn't continue our conversation. Simply threw that question out in hopes that he would see the errors of his ways.
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
I don't want to get in a debate here, but when you say that nothing of value can be learned from Satan aren't you writing off the entire Book of Job. Since God Himself sends strong delusion while at the same time having a perfect plan to bring all humanity into His image, then there must be a reason and a value to deception. The existence of hell is certainly a strong delusion -- a very, very, very strong delusion.
We must eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- that means getting deceived, doing the wrong thing, and learning some valuable lessons from God's tool known as Satan. God created Satan and called all of His creation "very good" so I wouldn't just write off the lessons we learn from Satan as being of no value.
Carol
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
I don't want to get in a debate here, but when you say that nothing of value can be learned from Satan aren't you writing off the entire Book of Job. Since God Himself sends strong delusion while at the same time having a perfect plan to bring all humanity into His image, then there must be a reason and a value to deception. The existence of hell is certainly a strong delusion -- a very, very, very strong delusion.
We must eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- that means getting deceived, doing the wrong thing, and learning some valuable lessons from God's tool known as Satan. God created Satan and called all of His creation "very good" so I wouldn't just write off the lessons we learn from Satan as being of no value.
Carol
Lessons we learn from Satan? Sorry, but Satan is not our teacher. Do you really think Job learned something from Satan? Did Job say, "Satan givith and Satan taketh away?" Jesus Christ told us to follow Him, that means to think like he thinks, do what he does, etc... Did HE learn anything from Satan?! Seriously... To say that deception is valuable in that way is putting the wrong value on it. We are to carefully weigh and measure everything we're given. Deception is the contrast to truth! Without it, we can't know truth. There's no such thing as valuable deception.
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Hi Beau,
Although I agree that seeking wisdom or knowledge directly from Satan would be more than counter productive God uses him for His own purposes, especially in keeping us humble and dependant on Him.
Remember Job and Paul, Paul's words;
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
Peace,
Joe
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
I don't want to get in a debate here, but when you say that nothing of value can be learned from Satan aren't you writing off the entire Book of Job. Since God Himself sends strong delusion while at the same time having a perfect plan to bring all humanity into His image, then there must be a reason and a value to deception. The existence of hell is certainly a strong delusion -- a very, very, very strong delusion.
We must eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- that means getting deceived, doing the wrong thing, and learning some valuable lessons from God's tool known as Satan. God created Satan and called all of His creation "very good" so I wouldn't just write off the lessons we learn from Satan as being of no value.
Carol
Lessons we learn from Satan? Sorry, but Satan is not our teacher. Do you really think Job learned something from Satan? Did Job say, "Satan givith and Satan taketh away?" Jesus Christ told us to follow Him, that means to think like he thinks, do what he does, etc... Did HE learn anything from Satan?! Seriously... To say that deception is valuable in that way is putting the wrong value on it. We are to carefully weigh and measure everything we're given. Deception is the contrast to truth! Without it, we can't know truth. There's no such thing as valuable deception.
Hi! Beau
Somewhere down the line I seem to remember a very true saying, not Scriptural, that goes something likethis:
"Once bit, twice shy." So I think we can learn from Satan. We can learn to be wide awake and not fall for his evil deception ever again. Or is my thinking contrary to the truth?
No offense intended, just an opinion.
God bless you.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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HI all,
If we think satan isn't of value then we sit oh Gods throne.
As Carol said God saw that is was "very good."
There are so many things that I don't understand why God does things as He does, but thats mountains I have to overcome.
Satan is here for a reason and God saw that it was very good.
Have faith. God does not lie.
Wisdom and peace to all.
Randy
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Deception is the contrast to truth! Without it, we can't know truth. There's no such thing as valuable deception.
Uncle Beau -- do you not see how you have contradicted yourself and proved my point while trying to argue against it. Without evil we cannot know good. Without sad we cannot know happy. And yes, as you just said, without deception we cannot know truth. These are God's methods so they are MOST valuable. And Satan is God's tool that God created so to question the value of Satan is to question God Himself.
Carol
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Darren,
Showing someone a hell that does not exist is not a Godly, rather a Satanic thing to do. It would teach them nothing of value.
I don't want to get in a debate here, but when you say that nothing of value can be learned from Satan aren't you writing off the entire Book of Job. Since God Himself sends strong delusion while at the same time having a perfect plan to bring all humanity into His image, then there must be a reason and a value to deception. The existence of hell is certainly a strong delusion -- a very, very, very strong delusion.
We must eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil -- that means getting deceived, doing the wrong thing, and learning some valuable lessons from God's tool known as Satan. God created Satan and called all of His creation "very good" so I wouldn't just write off the lessons we learn from Satan as being of no value.
Carol
I believe my quote of Darren was in response to the notion that perhaps God shows people glimpses of hell to frighten them and bring them to repentance. If God is calling one to true repentance, He is not going to show him/her a hell that doesn't exist. Rather, in such cases, the sinner would be called to the truths of God and not delusions.
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;D Allow me to jump on board...what a facinating bit of debating going on.
I do not discredit anyone that claim they have had a near death experience. Their experience was very real to them, and it has changed their lives profoundly. But that is all it is...their experience. As for me...I believe the bible, there is no hell and when we are dead, WE ARE DEAD....until...... ::)
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These is a pretty weird topic ???
The only thing I know you can learn from Satan is how to lie and deceive!
At the end of the day when you finally come to know the truth, who do you thank for your new found knowledge and wisdom?
Do we thank God for Satan's work in our lives???
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
Is this what Paul did here???
As for NEAR death experiences, what could any one experience prove about life AFTER death.
I've had lucid dreams and sleep paralysis all of which to me can explain the majority of these experiences but
I agree with Ray, I would love to hear someones story after having been dead, that would be awesome!!
Antaiwan
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Just to clear things up since this is causing confusion on this thread and in pm's with people wanting to teach me the error of my ways...
I did not say that we are to worship Satan, be thankful to Satan, seek out Satan, love Satan, prize Satan, consider Satan as equal to Christ, etc. etc. etc.
I simply believe that God created Satan as a tool and that God's creation and God's methods have value. Having value does not mean that I long for it, love it, seek it out, want it, prize it above Christ.
I simply place value on all God's methods and tools which HE uses to bring us into His image. To you it may be a "necessary" tool but to me it is a "valuable" tool -- I think it's the semantics of the words.
If you've ever heard the phrase "a valuable lesson" than that is what I value about Satan -- he is a tool of God that has been used to give me many valuable lessons. God has had to hit me over the head with His hammer many many times and without those hits I would not be where I am today. Without that hammer I would not have learned the damage of lies, the pain of betrayal, the hurt of viscious gossip, the ... well, surely you can see my meaning. These lessons have value. Tools with value can be called valuable. It does not mean they are diamonds, rubies, crude oil or above Christ.
We thank God because Satan is just God's hammer and that is ALL I ever said from the beginning of this whole thing. I value all of God's methods to bring us all into His image. Okay? Okay. If you don't like the word "value" then please pick another.
I sincerely apologize for any confusion and comments I've made in this thread or in pm's in response to this thread. It's just my opinion of God's sovereignty, methods and scripture. Things can quickly get out of hand in this forum and again, I apologize for any misunderstandings.
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I understood you perfectly carol and very much agree ;). Without darkness we can't know light. Satan is a perfect way to show us just how good God is and for that he is quite valuable. He was made by God for that purpose and nothing God did/made is wasted or can be done without :). That's very different than worshipping or even thanking satan, I get it, you thank God for what He shows you thru satan.
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Just to clear things up since this is causing confusion on this thread and in pm's with people wanting to teach me the error of my ways...
I did not say that we are to worship Satan, be thankful to Satan, seek out Satan, love Satan, prize Satan, consider Satan as equal to Christ, etc. etc. etc.
I simply believe that God created Satan as a tool and that God's creation and God's methods have value. Having value does not mean that I long for it, love it, seek it out, want it, prize it above Christ.
I simply place value on all God's methods and tools which HE uses to bring us into His image. To you it may be a "necessary" tool but to me it is a "valuable" tool -- I think it's the symantics of the words.
If you've ever heard the phrase "a valuable lesson" than that is what I value about Satan -- he is a tool of God that has been used to give me many valuable lessons. God has had to hit me over the head with His hammer many many times and without those hits I would not be where I am today. Without that hammer I would not have learned the damage of lies, the pain of betrayal, the hurt of viscious gossip, the ... well, surely you can see my meaning. These lessons have value. Tools with value can be called valuable. It does not mean they are diamonds, rubies, crude oil or above Christ.
We thank God because Satan is just God's hammer and that is ALL I ever said from the beginning of this whole thing. I value all of God's methods to bring us all into His image. Okay? Okay. If you don't like the word "value" then please pick another.
I sincerely apologize for any confusion and comments I've made in this thread or in pm's in response to this thread. It's just my opinion of God's sovereignty, methods and scripture. Things can quickly get out of hand in this forum and again, I apologize for any misunderstandings.
I understand your point as well Carol...like you said, there may have been some confusion with the others because of the use of the word 'valuable'. Thank you for the further explanation
Marques
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Does anyone have any thoughts on near death experiences? I know this is a very generalized question, but I'm just wondering if anyone has done any research on this specifically. Has Ray written anything on this topic?
Hi! Sozo
I haven't long to go now, but when I do go I want to go properly. If perchance while in the process of my going with my happy thoughts of the rewards awaiting me some idiot were to interrupt my happy departure by resuscitating me - near death experience- then, not being properly dead I'd retain those beautiful thoughts in my fading memory and be able to recall all my experiences in heaven for the admiration of all the dancing, singing and sensation seeking clowns waiting to hear all about it and make money out of it. Hallelujah! Amen!
God bless. (http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/howdypardner.gif)
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8
oi roy,
i love the sound of that. i noticed you were from lancashire. i've heard of that from my husband. he grew up outside of london. do you enjoy the "beautiful game" of football? i support the gunners, arsenal. i grew up watching american football, but when i really started watching the english premiership football games i became an instant fan. anyway, i know this has nothing to do with this particular post, but i just wanted to drop you a note. but then again, in regards to "near death" experiences and such, i've had 2. the 1st time you might say i saw a white lite at the end of a tunnel, but it was in actuality the bright lites of the intensive care dept in the hospital. so much for my near death experience. i agree totally that it is a dream state experience, as i experienced that in and out myself. but as for 90 mins in heaven and then being resusitated, well i don't know about that.
cheers roy,
oi
claudia
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I gave this topic some time in meditation and I can clearly see what you meant Carol!!
I'm sorry if anything I said caused you to feel anything other than loving.
I was just seeking understanding and I completely get it!!!
God wouldn't have made Satan if he didn't think he had any value to his plan a purpose.
And I realize the verse I quoted about Paul clearly shows the value of Satan.
I also realize this is one of the reasons why Rays papers are so long!!! People take one sentence or phrase
and run around town spreading it without any understanding!!
Thanks Carol for you insight!!
Antaiwan
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Hi! Claudia
Yes I am in a little town in Lancashire called Ashton-Under-Lyne and we love that beautiful game of football called "Soccer" only don't mention gunners and Arsenal round here or you're not going to be liked. Have you not followed the latest events? Well we are the "Champions" and the we stands for Manchester United. I personally hate the beastly game, it attracts too much of the hooligan element.
Anyway nice meeting you, where abouts are you and your husband now? Sounds as though you have moved out of the London area.
What was that you said about resuscitation after 90 minutes, if someone comes out of that then they must belong to the walking, talking dead, very dead.
How long have you and your husband been out of Babylon? You've done the right thing that's for sure. Benny Hinn has just received a thunderous applause for telling a load of lies and robbing them.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/th6.gif)
God bless you brother and sister in our joint walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Before my conversion I got interested in NDE with great passion :) We should remember we believe all comes from God and because some people experience "near-death" and some not, it should be some kind clue for us. Most of NDE are very positive and very similiar. I have even read a scientific research on this subject entitled "NDEs and Universal Salvation" by Dr. Ken Vincent, which showed that christian universalists might be right :) ;) Anyway, I was wondering - if God operates beyond the physical time and space, is it possible that He gives near-death experiencers a glimpse in the future? His future kingdom after resurrection, judgementand salvation - in short words the end of his mighty plan. What do you think??
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Before my conversion I got interested in NDE with great passion :) We should remember we believe all comes from God and because some people experience "near-death" and some not, it should be some kind clue for us. Most of NDE are very positive and very similiar. I have even read a scientific research on this subject entitled "NDEs and Universal Salvation" by Dr. Ken Vincent, which showed that christian universalists might be right :) ;) Anyway, I was wondering - if God operates beyond the physical time and space, is it possible that He gives near-death experiencers a glimpse in the future? His future kingdom after resurrection, judgementand salvation - in short words the end of his mighty plan. What do you think??
Hi David,
Interesting topic.
I used to be taken in by NDE's before I learned Ecc 9:5. It's not a glimpse into the future; I truly believe that.
A friend who is an atheist recently told me how they had a "near" death experience. "Didn't see a thing! Nada, zilch, zippo! Nothing!" (haha)
Then, there are those who claim they see this and that and the other thing in the "near" death experience.
This is what I think: Others going around telling people they've had a "near" death experience and then going on to describe what happens "after" death is akin to saying, "I went near the river, and this qualifies me to tell you what is in the river..."
If they're seeing things, they're not dead... yet! Ecc. 9:5
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Bill Weisse had a near death experience. Or maybe he didn't. Maybe he had a vision of something. Or maybe he didn't. Maybe he fabricated the whole story to 'keep people from choosing Hell' or maybe he didn't. Maybe he fabricated the whole story to make some money. Or maybe he didn't. How am I supposed to know? I'm supposed to know by Scripture, Spiritually discerned.
People who report near death experiences do so for their own motives and with their own prejudices. People who COMPILE reports of near death experiences ABSOLUTELY do so for their own motives and probably with their own prejudices. How is that of any real value to me, especially since it cannot be scientifically AND scripturally confirmed as truth?
I'd be happy to 'preach' to someone who believes he/she has had a near death experience, just as Paul did to the Athenians worshipping their unknown God. But I won't sit still for a sermon from him/her. I do believe God can cause the rocks and stones to preach the gospel. I do NOT believe I'll be heading down to the quarry anytime soon to listen. That's about what I think of reported near death experiences.
That's just me, though.
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This is what I think: Others going around telling people they've had a "near" death experience and then going on to describe what happens "after" death is akin to saying, "I went near the river, and this qualifies me to tell you what is in the river..."
If they're seeing things, they're not dead... yet! Ecc. 9:5
Bill Weisse had a near death experience. Or maybe he didn't. Maybe he had a vision of something. Or maybe he didn't. Maybe he fabricated the whole story to 'keep people from choosing Hell' or maybe he didn't. Maybe he fabricated the whole story to make some money. Or maybe he didn't. How am I supposed to know? I'm supposed to know by Scripture, Spiritually discerned.
People who report near death experiences do so for their own motives and with their own prejudices. People who COMPILE reports of near death experiences ABSOLUTELY do so for their own motives and probably with their own prejudices. How is that of any real value to me, especially since it cannot be scientifically AND scripturally confirmed as truth?
I'd be happy to 'preach' to someone who believes he/she has had a near death experience, just as Paul did to the Athenians worshipping their unknown God. But I won't sit still for a sermon from him/her. I do believe God can cause the rocks and stones to preach the gospel. I do NOT believe I'll be heading down to the quarry anytime soon to listen. That's about what I think of reported near death experiences.
That's just me, though.
Amen...well said Dave & Gina.
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I have experience,and I have seen some dark stuff,ghost like a shadow and burning but no light,the ghost don't receive light,unlike the light,the ghost didn't sunshine,some kind of "dark-shine" ,maybe the ghost come from hell,maybe I will go to hell.
if you don't believe in me,just ignore.
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I have experience,and I have seen some dark stuff,ghost like a shadow and burning but no light,the ghost don't receive light,unlike the light,the ghost didn't sunshine,some kind of "dark-shine" ,maybe the ghost come from hell,maybe I will go to hell.
if you don't believe in me,just ignore.
?????????
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I have experience,and I have seen some dark stuff,ghost like a shadow and burning but no light,the ghost don't receive light,unlike the light,the ghost didn't sunshine,some kind of "dark-shine" ,maybe the ghost come from hell,maybe I will go to hell.
if you don't believe in me,just ignore.
?????????
haha.
Dear Soberxp, I don't suppose whatever ghost you've seen wouldn't happen to be the negative of your profile picture, would it? ( ;) ;) nudge-nudge) haha And I want to personally thank you for allowing us to ignore what you've said. Can we also recommend that you be banned?
Just kidding!
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Dear Gina
I think the post of our friend was full of irony. He showed how low he valued NDEs. I hope he meant that exactly ;)
Anyway, I must stand in defence of those who had NDEs. You will always find people who like using something for his own agenda, like Bill Wiese has done. But we shouldn't treat others as liars. NDE is a fact, the cause is not known (yet), it can be stricly physiological like our dreams are. It's obvious that we are talking here about being "clinically dead", not dead at all. But the most important thing is that many NDEs had a very positive impact on survivor's life. Mostly they stopped being selfish and materialistic and became more emotional, sensitive and caring for others. Therefore I conclude that NDEs might be one of God's way to change people's lives. I don't have to remind anybody that Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.. God is in control of everything and because NDE exist He undoubtedly created it for purpose. I'm not calling into question the truthfulness of the Scriptures. I'm not saying NDEs are access to afterlife when immortal souls face God directly, because thanks to Mr. Smith's teachings (and God's Spirit) I know what soul is and know there is no afterlife after our physical death.
NDE will always have a place in my heart. By reading many testimonies I got interested in religion (again) or better word for that would be "spiritual realm". NDE led me to Christianity which led me to Christian Universalism which led me to Mr. Smith's teaching which led me finally to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Master. In that case could anybody suggest my interest in NDE was a sinister plot by Satan ;) :)? If you had thought about NDE, maybe you would have found the purpose for it in my "spiritual path" :D
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NDE led me to Christianity which led me to Christian Universalism which led me to Mr. Smith's teaching which led me finally to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Master. In that case could anybody suggest my interest in NDE was a sinister plot by Satan ;) :)? If you had thought about NDE, maybe you would have found the purpose for it in my "spiritual path" :D
Actually Yes.
I started to go to church because I didn't want to go to hell. Which led me to apologetics. Which led me to BT and Ray's teachings. Which led me to an understanding of His Word and Christ coming into my life. Satan is said to 'deceive the whole world' [Rev 12:9], that doesn't exclude anyone save Jesus. Before one becomes the Elect, they too are deceived.
Every day we live our lives is a 'near death' experience because our lives are put a vapor, here today gone tomorrow. But as far as someone seeing or having consciousness in a state of death, I would believe the Lord before the testimony of men.
But let this not be a point of contention. There is no point to a continued debate on this issue, let's move on.
Marques
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Just having a little fun. I'll try to keep a lid on it.
I understand the value people place on NDE's. I don't mean to sound insensitive. I would, too, except I watched a documentary years ago where an NDE was replicated in a lab study. Doctors exposed part of a young man's brain and stimulated different parts of his brain tissue with electrodes. The study patient, fully awake, was saying that he saw "bright lights" and "a tunnel," etc. If memory serves me correctly, the doctors involved in the study speculated that the "bright lights" and "tunnel" could be that neurons are misfiring as the brain is shutting down.
I've personally seen bright lights. Once after getting knocked upside the head, I saw twinkling lights -- you know, they're the ones that cartoonists draw around the head of a character. Hanna-Barbera of Looney Tunes fame used those twinkling stars a lot in their cartoons. haha. I did a little research and learned that happens as a result of the brain bouncing off the skull.
And per Marques, I'll just end it there. :)
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You are right. The final outcome is that what matters the most.
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Hey Gina
I am almost certain I saw the same excellent documentary. Scientists said they could simulate the widely experienced tunnel of light and feelings of euphoria that accompany many NDE’s
Last night I watched a documentary on the latest on LSD and the history of this hallucinogenic drug. There is a section of the brain responsible for separating our imagined perceptions from reality. Researchers said that the drug is able to blur this capacity of the brain making imagination appear real. I don’t think that one need to depend on LSD for such experiences. I think of the many things that LSD shows, it also manifests what can happen to a dysfunctional brain that can occur independently of LSD! Mental dysfunction and loss in sound mindedness, need not be only associated to drug induced hallucinogens. :D
The clinical research for applications of LSD’s pain killing properties and medicinal advantages, were suspended due to the outbreak of abuse of the drug and its lethal overdose consequences. For forty years the study and research into other possibly medically beneficial applications, are now being relaxed.
The vivid analogy of LSD that is as an inner manifestation of an external reality of a Nuclear explosion, was well made.
Hey Dawidos
True. The outcome is written and decreed yet few believe it. :)
Arc
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Boy, let me tell you how real a hallucination is. You can see the texture of a hair, the gleam in an eye, the color is vivid, it is alive as never before.
How do I know, well, just drink alchohol with a new medication you shouldn't be drinking with because you are stupid and didn't read the directions.
Try a 6 ft. neon green cobra sitting up, chasing you or maybe a 3 ft. kangaroo sitting on your chest looking down on you in bed!!!
It took my sister to figure out what the heck was going on with me, putting 1 and 1 together. The funny thing was the whole time I was seeing the kangaroo I knew it wasn't real somehow, the cobra, I thought was real, nevertheless, I thought my heart would collapse!!
NDE's must seem real to people too. Judy
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Boy, let me tell you how real a hallucination is. You can see the texture of a hair, the gleam in an eye, the color is vivid, it is alive as never before.
How do I know, well, just drink alchohol with a new medication you shouldn't be drinking with because you are stupid and didn't read the directions.
Try a 6 ft. neon green cobra sitting up, chasing you or maybe a 3 ft. kangaroo sitting on your chest looking down on you in bed!!!
It took my sister to figure out what the heck was going on with me, putting 1 and 1 together. The funny thing was the whole time I was seeing the kangaroo I knew it wasn't real somehow, the cobra, I thought was real, nevertheless, I thought my heart would collapse!!
NDE's must seem real to people too. Judy
Whoa, Judy, thanks for sharing that. What medication was that?!
When I think about all the legal and illegal drugs that people take (not judging) and knowing that the body has to excrete them, and that those same drugs wind up in our water supply because there's no way to filter all of it out, and we end up taking drugs whether we need them or want to or not....
The body is amazing thing. About 5-6 years ago, my body was acting like it was pregnant, but I was definitely not pregnant -- haha. I remember saying to one of the girls in the office, "Somebody's pregnant, I can just feel it." She said, Gina, you better go get your hormone levels checked. About two months later, I learned there were three women in my office who were all pregnant at the same time. And as soon as the last one went into her second trimester, my body went right back to normal. I kid you not. So I was exposed to three pregnancies just in my office alone, but there were also those women who were taking those depro provera (sp?) shots and some were taking the pill and then there were those women on HRT (PreMarin, which is derived from Pregnant Mare's urine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premarin), it screwed my system up something fierce. (Yes, I know that sounds unbelievable to some of you, but if women who work and live in close proximity start to sync up menstrually, it's no surprise to me that that would have happened to me. I'm just ultra sensitive, apparently.)
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Interesting what you say judy. Allot of drugs can do so many things to the body. I have heard people say they have left the body and could see them self on the couch. But that's because of the drug and the the hallucination i think. If its true or not i don't know, but kind a interesting compared to the discussion.
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Gina, I don't remember the name unless I heard it again but I do know there was trouble with it later in the medical profession. I was in Cal. visiting my sister and was afraid to come off of it so I just didn't drink any more cocktails. When I came home I told my Dct. and he put me on something else. I have been hospitilized for anxiety and depression, border line manic-depressive. Personally I thank God for medicine. Never, thank God, have I had any other trouble with meds and have been on them for almost 40 yrs.
Except for leukemia which they are thinking now, radiation, which, in my generation we were ex-rayed every time we turned around. That and some spinal problems I'm fine. Also smoked for 53 yrs. Yes, it's horrible, I know. Figure I am going to live as long as God allows.
I believe you about the symptoms of pregnancy. That sensitivity can be a blessing or a curse. I feel other's pain so bad that I am almost always in prayer. The bad is, the slightest inflection in voice or body language tells me way more than I want to know at times. I can get along with most all people though because of this but they all open up to me which is draining at times. Also have seen events coming even when I don't want to. I am an observer and I pick up vibes from most everything. Sometimes, YUK! Judy
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my big important question with this thread is this"
"would you still love me ( if i had a near death experience?)
tomorrow"
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God only knows.
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Just having a little fun. I'll try to keep a lid on it.
I understand the value people place on NDE's. I don't mean to sound insensitive. I would, too, except I watched a documentary years ago where an NDE was replicated in a lab study. Doctors exposed part of a young man's brain and stimulated different parts of his brain tissue with electrodes. The study patient, fully awake, was saying that he saw "bright lights" and "a tunnel," etc. If memory serves me correctly, the doctors involved in the study speculated that the "bright lights" and "tunnel" could be that neurons are misfiring as the brain is shutting down.
I've personally seen bright lights. Once after getting knocked upside the head, I saw twinkling lights -- you know, they're the ones that cartoonists draw around the head of a character. Hanna-Barbera of Looney Tunes fame used those twinkling stars a lot in their cartoons. haha. I did a little research and learned that happens as a result of the brain bouncing off the skull.
And per Marques, I'll just end it there. :)
Hi Gina
I was wondering what your take is on how the resurrections or raising of the dead in the Bible took place...... or maybe better worded as what do you think happened that allowed someone to die and then live again?
I was pronounced dead from a car accident and remained so for quite some time ....... for sure long enough to turn a hospital, an EMT crew and highway patrol investigator from being confident in their knowledge to being unable to explain or some cases becoming unable to cope with what they had witnessed happen to me.
Ironically what I witnessed while on the other side was not as I was taught as a youth in Sunday school but was exactly as I found it to be recorded in the Bible some five years later when after I finally heeded God's call to me. However I did not see any tunnels or lights or for that matter anything else that I have ever read of anyone else experiencing
I will post it in the testimony section........ maybe you be willing to read it and tell me what you think happened.
Blessings
Doug
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I have experience,and I have seen some dark stuff,ghost like a shadow and burning but no light,the ghost don't receive light,unlike the light,the ghost didn't sunshine,some kind of "dark-shine" ,maybe the ghost come from hell,maybe I will go to hell.
if you don't believe in me,just ignore.
?????????
haha.
Dear Soberxp, I don't suppose whatever ghost you've seen wouldn't happen to be the negative of your profile picture, would it? ( ;) ;) nudge-nudge) haha And I want to personally thank you for allowing us to ignore what you've said. Can we also recommend that you be banned?
Just kidding!
I'm sure that ghost is kind,at that time,the ghost wanted to trying help me,and he or she or it didn't show himself as a light, that's good,so I'm sure that's not satan.but I really don't know what's that.so I call it "ghost",in fact,the profile of the ghost looks like a T-shirt ,funny??!