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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mrsnacks on March 07, 2007, 04:59:51 PM
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Hi . I am new here and just eating up all the food recently that is new to me.
I was of course taught from the pulpit that man was created perfect and without sin. That there was no death in the garden. That this was God's original plan. And somehow satan messed it all up and God had to go to plan B. That satan was a fallen angel who was once perfect. He ended up taking a third of the angels with him in rebellion against God. Now I am learning that this doctrine is incorrect. That man was carnal from the beginning. And satan was created a murderer and liar from the very beginning as well. That this plan originally was that man was carnal and evil was all considered part of the original plan.
I heard that from Ray that God created Adam first as male and female in the image of God. And then God separated the female part of Adam when He created Eve. Was Adam a male/female orginally ?
Anyway can you all comment on all this for me. Thanks.
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Hi Mr,
I know from the scriptures Adam was male. If we look at the flesh though, men carry male and female chromosomes.....men have x and y women have only x chromosomes. Thats why its the mans seed that determines if a baby is male or female as his sperm carries both male AND female chromosome. I had three daughters, my hubby was the only boy with 5 sisters.....so it was all done to him that we had no boys...............well through Christ of course. :)
GB Sandie
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Sandie,
That was a great response and one that makes perfect sense. :) (I had forgotten about the chromozones)
I glanced over the reason Ray gave, but nothing "clicked" :) I didn't worry, because I knew the light bulb of understanding would come under God's terms.
He used you! :)
Love to you in Christ,
Your Brother,
Darren
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Hi mrsnacks,
There is a audio and a transcript and go into great detail about Adam and Eve.
You can find all of Ray's audio in that section of the fourm,
and there are some transcripts in that section.
Here are the links
This is the second audio of the 2006 Mobile Conference,
and has the part about Adam and Eve on it.
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.2.mp3
This is a transcript on Adam and Eve.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks. I did listen to a couple of Ray's audio. How did he arrive or recieve these interpretations ? I know he didn't get it at seminary or Bible classes.
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Darren i am thrilled that God has used me. We are all messengers of the truth. :)
God Bless Sandie
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Hi mrsnacks,
I attend Ray's monthly biblestudies, so he is a friend to me. These are my own observations.
What I know about Ray is that he studies the scripture continually. God began opening his eyes and revealing the truth of the scriptures some years ago. He wrote a letter to Hagee first I think, to refute his teachings on hell and then a letter to Kenney (these are on the Bibletruths site). These were the start of his writing papers that continue to this day.
Ray has been blessed with gift of spiritual understanding and discernment, this is a gift from God. He has been called to be a teacher, he did not choose this, he never decided that's what he wanted to do and then started a site, no God chose him, there a big difference.
Ray has an incredible knowledge of the Bible, he has studied it for many years, but this is beyond what man is able to gain from reading it, it is a gift.
Now he spends hours and hours studing and writing his papers, and we are the recipients, who are gaining understanding from his teaching. It is ALL of God, I believe this is what is spoken of in Daniel.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."
Here is an email of Ray's that will answer your question more.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#cult --------------------------------------
Dear Robert:
Thank you for your e-mail and your demeaning curiosity about me.
First of all, maybe your professor should do his own homework before giving assignments which label people he knows nothing about.
I will try to answer your questions succinctly:
I am NOT a "cult." However, if you read the latest books on what constitutes a "cult," you will find that the [orthodox] Christian religion fits ALL the categories that qualify a religion as a cult.
I DO NOT have a "church." I belong to the body of Christ, which is the only true called-out assembly.
No, I do not hold that I alone have the correct interpretation of the Bible.
I DID NOT start a "religion!"
The Scriptural doctrines that I believe are NOT mine, and they are NOT new.
My "advanced training in the Bible" did not come from a school.
Yes, I believe that Jesus "rose from the dead." But, probably, unlike your professor, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS DEAD BEFORE HE WAS RAISED. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world--Jesus Christ's "body" did not die for the sins of the world! We do not have a "cadaver" for a Savior! Jesus Christ, "HE" (not just His dead body) is the savior of the world, therefore, contrary to Christian teaching, Jesus Christ's HIMSELF died, and Jesus Christ HIMSELF was raised from the dead!
What makes you think I accept the "bible" as being "inspired?" I believe the Holy Scriptures written in Hebrew and Greek ARE INSPIRED! Bibles are translations, or as with KJV a revision of a revision, and thus are open to human error.
I DO NOT HAVE "followers." I tell my readers to believe in and follow Jesus Christ!
And I pray to God that no one who reads my material thinks that I am a "prophet or priest!"
I hope this answers your questions. Be sure to show this note to your professor, and say "hello" for me.
Humbly in Christ's service,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks. I am trying to digest these truths. I was prophecied many years ago when I first began the journey. Two missionaries prayed over me and said that God has given me the gift of discernment. I took it lightly being that I was new in the Lord and didn't understand. And after that I was swallowed up by the teachings that the gifts were done away with atr churches I was attending. That my prayers in tongues were passed away. So much for the church. And to this day I am unlearning the many years of being taught false teachings.
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oppS! again Like I sed in my Bible didnt GOD use the Rib of Adam to create Woman & Lovely! creatures they to lol! Thank You FATHER,
GODBLEsS! & b wit U alwayZ!! GODSown1
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oh Im sorry Im new to this az well, I PRAISE GODS name for sending Ray to wake us up to the TRUTH!! of our Allmighty & LORD n SAVIOR n JESUS CHRIST!!.
muchLOVE!! to alL GODSown1
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Im soory but my real name is PERA & Im from New Zealand
BLESSINGS to all
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Hi PERA,
I see this is your first postings. I'm glad that you have come to be with us :)
Your question;
didnt GOD use the Rib of Adam to create Woman
Ray has spoken about this in detail, here is a link to the 2nd and 3rd Mobile conference audios that have the Adam and Eve part on them.
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/9-2-06MobileConf.3.mp3
And here is a link to the transcript on Adam and Eve, it's a down the page a ways;
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
Sorry for taking so long in this reply, You no what Ive jus been with the LORD since 2005, I was in a Gang for 23yrs, I was guided or decipled by a Lawyer whom use to represent me, Well um! I come across Rays site & I thank GOD, as I always was in a tisS! to why is der so many different beliefs in churchs, now Ive read the Bible I was neva a reader but I thank the Father for giving me the reading skills, Well now I see why there is differnt beliefs etc.. Well what Im tryna get @ is Ive told my lawyer mate about Rays site & how its Opened my eyes to I beleave is the Truth, But! az we went for a drive I had all these writings of Ray printed out so I started reading them to him, But! then to my suprize He said STOP!! I dont want to hear any more you are being Deceived!!, But! I dont no But! wot I said to him was NO! I think yourve been Deceived! all the years heZ been a a so called Christian, But then wen he dropped me off I was thinking to myself hmm... I hope I neva said the wrong thing. We are still friends haha! But now he wants to get together every Wednesday night so he can guide me the right way, But! Im thinking GOD wants me to Guide him instead hahaha!, well I just Pray GODS Will be done, hey thanks Heaps Kat may GOD BLESS & be with you AlwayS!!
Pera
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ohH!! & Thank You so much for them Audio things, all I do is study on GOD n JESUS CHRIST & that is @ work as well hahaha! & I so Love it, I Thank GOD for the Business I am now on becoz I have ample time to study! PRAISE the LORD! Thanks again Kat
muchLOVE! Pera
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Hi PERA,
I'm so glad the articles and audios are helping you :)
It is a great thing to see the Truth, but so few are having their eyes open to it.
I hope you will find the fellowship you need here, and don't hesitate to ask questions. We work together here and you will get answers.
I know what you mean about the Lawyer, people especially Christians may not want to here the Truth. And if their eyes have not been opened, there is no way to explain it to them :-\
So you might consider talking to those who are somewhat interested.
1Peter 3:15 but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
Mat 7:6 "Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
This verse in Matt. 7 is taking about people who have their heart's hardened to the Truth, it's best just to leave them alone, in my opinion.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
I think I understand U, But Im thinkn he needs to be told the truth, But! I hear ya & I thank you so much
muchLOVE! & Blessings Pera
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im sure I replied lol! But! Im hearing you Kat thanks Heaps!
muchLOVE! Pera
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I heard that from Ray that God created Adam first as male and female in the image of God. And then God separated the female part of Adam when He created Eve. Was Adam a male/female orginally ?
Anyway can you all comment on all this for me. Thanks.
In addition to Adam being made male/female, It is possible that God Almighty possesses the same quality. The Hebrew word for breast is 'shad', where we get El Shaddai:
Here's a clippet from a article I read researching Law v. Grace:
Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Yahweh appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am El Shaddai . . ."
Moses wrote these words many years later, after God had revealed Himself by the name of Yahweh. Moses tells us that Yahweh appeared to Abram but identified himself as El Shaddai. This tells us clearly that Yahweh and El Shaddai are the same God, even if they are identified by different names.
The names were intended to reveal that God is both masculine and feminine and is complete within Himself. Yahweh is masculine; El Shaddai is feminine. When God created man in His own image, He created Adam both male and female within himself. Later, He took Eve out of Adam and made them into two individuals. Yet this shows that God is both male and female.
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How can God be both male and female if He is not a man?
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
He is not a physical being at all. He is Spirit.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
God is Spirit. Does Spirit have male and female qualities I don't know? But to say that He is male and female doesn't make much sense to me.
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Hi aktikt,
Well why is it so hard to believe that God would be male and female, having all the masculinity of the male and all the femininity of the female. This would make Him relate to all that both sexes experience. But more than that I would think it would make Him more of a whole being.
This verse indicates that He is male and female to me, "in the image of God He created him, male and female."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Num 23:19 God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
He is not a physical being at all. He is Spirit.
That verse in Num. is saying He is not a man in that He does not have the physical weaknesses of men in the flesh. He is the God of the OT, Jehovah, the Son who became Jesus Christ.
The Son was created to be the God of humanity, I think He will always present Himself in the form of a man, in Spirit form and in physical form.
Jer 32:27 "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?
So that's my perspective on this :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
After reading your post, I jumped over to dictionary.com to look up the word "gender"... as it was to my understanding a term that is a parent to or word that describes "male" and female"... and refers to "sexual identity."
Here are a couple of definitions that I found:
"The properties that distinguish organisms on the basis of their reproductive roles"
&
"The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture."
To say that God, who as you have stated is SPIRIT, can be grouped as a gender or in both genders... I do not believe to be accurate. The scriptures say that God is NOT a man... nor is He female.
While the genders are made up of characteristics of who God is... I do not believe that all of the chacateristics of God can be found in male, female, or the combination of both.
He transcends every categorey.
God's Peace.
Josh
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Josh,
That's very interesting!!! :)
Thanks for sharing.
Iris
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Hello Josh
He transcends every categorey.
Does transcendence mean God is cut off from every category or that every category is an extension out from God?
Everything is out of God surely? This does not limit God to His creatures I know. HE is the Creator the SOURCE not the creature yet Male and Female He crreated them in His image and likeness. What does that mean? That is us. Humankind is who is being created in His image. We are in Gods process of becoming His image and likeness. Gen 1 : 28 HE is ONE. What is a male and female put together. ONE. When the woman was taken out of Adam she was identified by Adam as bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh. What was he before?....What is God? Mother Father, Brother Sister, All in All perhaps? I think so....Does that limit God. NO.
....Well these are only thoughts Josh....not written to conflict with you...but the Dictionary has been known to decieve and be very limited also. Take the translation on Hell for example or love....See what I mean?
Have you checked out some of the Interlinear Scriptures on this? May be there is something in there to take this further...I know there is much illumination in Ray's Mobil conference audio about this very subject if you have not already heard it and I meantion this last but not least!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Josh,
Please let me add my two cents in here :)
I think perhaps there is some confusion between the physical and the spiritual.
As Kat correctly included:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
There is no getting around the fact that the human forms of both male and female gender were created, representative of God's spiritual form. Let us forget the physical differences and concentrate on the spiritual. :)
There are fundamental differences in the way men and woman think; although not exclusively true, it is certainly generally true.
We need not be surprised at this because God created woman "compliment" the man. :)
Gen 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
I'm not sure if God has given humankind all of his "characteristics" or not; but I would be leaning towards he has, even if we are not yet aware of them. :)
Please do not take offense of this; for I see husband and wife as a complete article, being in the image of God.
Love to you in Christ,
Your Brother,
Darren
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Hi Arcturus,
You mirror my sentiments perfectly, just a bit sooner than I.
Your Brother In Christ,
Love,
Darren
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Josh,
Arcturus was referring to the September audio #2, in which Ray goes into great detail about Adam and Eve and the question of God being male and female. Check it out for yourself.
Your brother,
Dwight
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Was man "created" in the image of God, male and female... or is God "creating" man, male and female, into the image of God...
Once we are "immersed" or have "put on Christ"... there is no longer any male or female...
Galatians3:26-28 (Rothermans)
For ye, all, are, sons of God, through the faith in Christ Jesus;
For ye, as many as, into Christ, have been immersed, have put Christ, on:
There cannot be Jew or Greek, there cannot be bond or free, there cannot be male and female, for, all ye, are one, in Christ Jesus:
Now, if, ye, are of Christ, by consequence ye are, Abraham’s seed, according to promise, heirs.
Once we are perfected there is no need for genders... once we are in the image of God there is no distinction.
God's Peace
Josh
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Josh,
With all due respect, I think what Paul is referring to is that when we are in Christ, we no longer live according to the flesh:
Gal 4: 22-26 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a free woman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. BUT JERUSALEM WHICH IS ABOVE IS FREE, WHICH IS THE MOTHER OF US ALL.
Peace to you brother,
Lisa
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Hi, new here, sort of. My nic is raler, but I answer to Jeff too :D Found Ray's web site a couple of years ago and have been wide-eyed ever since. Like most of you I share what I'm taught, but get ::) 90% of the time, although I occasionally cross paths with others. I've been a Christian (cookie-cutter version) for 40+ years, but it was an atheist who drove me to seek the Truth and God who drove an atheist to seek me. I love irony.
First read about Adam and Eve today. Incredible to consider. First Adam sacrifices out of love. Last Adam sacrifices out of love. How much more profound does it get than that?!
God's creation is Spirit-centric because He is Spirit, but is certainly physical as well (I do wonder why). We know the Truth, but the world can't escape that aspect. We each (men and women) have very different physiology, but spiritually are likely very similar and any differences woud be related to our own unique personalities.
It occurred to me that men and women both have varying levels of testosterone and estrogen. I never could figure that one out.
Peace!
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;D
Hi Raler/Jeff. Welcome aboard. Hope you will be posting often!
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Hi Raler/Jeff,
Welcome to the forum.
Glad you've joined us.
Iris
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Hi all
I just wanna say! wow! Well said all!!!!! hahaha!
muchLOVE!!! Pera
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Pera, we are both online now....what time is it in NZ??? It is 8:50 pm here in Michigan!
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opps! sorry Gena well at this time it is 2.10pm Tuesday 20th, & Im @ work lol!!
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Hi all,
okay this may be completely unrelated but I came across this scripture while studying something else and it made me think of this thread....not really sure what it means??? I've listed a few different translations:
Jeremiah 31:22 ESV
22 How long will you waver, O faithless daughter? For the LORD has created a new thing on the earth: a woman encircles a man."
Jeremiah 31:22 NIV
22 How long will you wander, O unfaithful daughter? The LORD will create a new thing on earth-- a woman will surround a man."
Jeremiah 31:22 GW
22 How long will you wander around, you unfaithful people? The LORD will create something new on earth: A woman will protect a man.
Jeremiah 31:22 CEV
22 Will you ever decide to be faithful? I will make sure that someday things will be different, as different as a woman protecting a man.
???....all I can say is...hey girls, what do you all think of this?? ;D
Peace and smiles,
Diana
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I've listened to the audio from the September Conference, #2 as suggested.
At this point, I must gracefully disagree... and I will dismiss myself from this current conversation as to not cause any strife or division...
Thank you all for your patience.
God's Peace.
Josh
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hmmmm..... wow! GODBLESS! & be with U Josh
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Hello Skydreamers
this is what comes to mind for me. We know we are only BORN in the resurrection. We are concieved now. In the physical the sperm penetrates the female egg and is encompassed...surrounded if you will. That begins the building up of the body...now just put that accross to the Spiritual...we are in Spirit and in Truth...the body of Christ. What we will become is yet not seen but once we are born we will see and know because we will see Him as He is. We know there is a bride of Christ and that the Angels are neither male or female and we will be like them but how this fits I think we will only truly and fully expereince when we get there...born again I mean.
As Christ said....God the Father was in HIM. Did that make Jesus female. NO. Jesus was both in God and God was in HIM. All in all is the direction and more recently as Ray teaches ONE may well be not one or the other.
But for now....we are brothers and sisters being fashioned into sons and daughters of God ....later where all is in all....I do not know.
What is important is now. Maybe yesterday and tomorrow are male and female and maybe the tree of good and evil is also there to show the contrasts so we can grow into HIS image. When the contrasts are no longer there, then the scafolding comes down off the building God is making. Ray mentioned that in an e-mail once. If Kat is looking in, perhaps she will be more readily able to put her hand to it than I.
It might be exactly as Josh sees it in the end...no more black and white...just light and HIM...not to dismiss the process though or to say we will no longer have identity. Just what that identity is IS Christ and that is for HIM to unveil to us.....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Jeff, Welcome to the forum,
You bring up a good point about us having varying levels of testoterone and estrogen. I find it interesting also,
that our DNA strand is a double helix.
Diana, I'm going to study those verses in Jeremiah - I also find that very interesting!
Peace to you,
Lisa
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Thanks for the warm welcome everyone!
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Hi Arcturus,
What is important is now. Maybe yesterday and tomorrow are male and female and maybe the tree of good and evil is also there to show the contrasts so we can grow into HIS image. When the contrasts are no longer there, then the scafolding comes down off the building God is making.
I do remember Ray speaks about this evil experience now, to be like the ugly scaffolding of a building that will be removed when we are complete.
Here it is in the second letter to Kennedy.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -------------------------------------------------
How much more comforting it is to believe the Scriptures. God created evil and uses it for a good purpose. Evil's existence is only temporary (like the scaffolding on a new building). When the building is completed, the ugly scaffolding is removed-it serves no further function to the finished building. Only a knowledge of evil, not evil itself, has eternal value. How awful to think that God did not foresee the coming of evil, can't justify its existence, can't dispose of it, can't save most of humanity because of it. There is no justification for, nor redeeming value in, eternal torture. None.
God is Wise. God wants Sons who will know both "good and evil." God's "end" more than justifies His "means." As Paul said:
"For the momentary lightness of our affliction is producing for us a transcendently transcendent eonian burden of glory ... " (II Cor. 4:17). Concordant Literal New Testament.
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This is taken from the Lake of Fire article #1.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html --------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
We will begin with FIGURES OF LIKENESS which include:
~similes (when something is like, or as something else, it is a simile rather than a metaphor)
~metaphors (where one thing is said to actually be something else) as in, "all life is grass" I Pet. 1:24.
Therefore, the subject of this paper IS a metaphor and CANNOT be literal: John says, "...the lake of fire,
This IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14), and "...the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which IS the second death" (Rev. 21:08)
~implications
~parables (there are many, the shortest one being, "Physician, heal Thyself" Luke 4:23)
~allegories (as in the two women standing for two covenants, Gal. 4:22-28)
~visions (as in a sheet let down from heaven, Acts 10:11-16)
~signs (as in the sign of Jonah the prophet, Matt. 12:39)
~types (as in Adam corresponding with Christ, Rom. 5:12-21)
~shadows (as in the law being a shadow of good things to come, Heb. 10:1)
~examples (as in the tabernacle vessels being examples of what is in heaven , Heb. 9:23)
~images (as Christ is the image of God, Col. 1:15)
~impersonations or personifications (where things are spoken of as persons)
~condescension's (as where God takes on human attributes)
~diminutives (as in "little women, heaped with sins" II Tim. 3:6)
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Saying God is both male and female is by no means a total description of Him . It is just one more way He is described in 'physical terms' to help us to get a better understanding. I think that saying He is male and female is showing that God is not limited to the attributes of a man, since He is referred to as He and Him and Christ was a man while on earth. But I would not think of Him as limited to this gender thing, as we know He is so much more than that.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat
Thank you for helping out so much!
Those references are very useful especially the portion you posted from LOF. It just makes me realise that after reading and understanding and agreeing with what Ray reveals, I can still forget and then have the joy returned through re-discovery in the forum when excerpts are posted to bring the sparkle back and meanings into tangible meaning through our discussions and support of one another!
Skydreamers I read this translation from the Message this morning and it really does give another insight.
Gal 3 : 26 -28 In Christ’s family THERE CAN BE NO DIVISION into Jew and non-Jew, slave and free, male and female. Among us YOU ARE ALL EQUAL. That is, we are all in a common relationship with Jesus Christ. Also, since you are Christ’s family, then you are Abraham’s famous “descendant,” heirs according to the covenant promises.
This interpretation put another spin on our view of the meaning in this scripture for me. ….We know that Jesus had favourites but his favourites did not rate themselves superior and neither did Jesus rank Himself as above us but came to serve not to be served.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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This has been a very interesting thread.
Thank you, everyone, for sharing.
Iris