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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: stello on March 22, 2016, 07:14:21 PM
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And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise
Was this guy called and chosen on the cross? Or was Jesus saying in time you will be with me in paradise?
Stello
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Hi Stello.
The comma should be placed after today.
Truly I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise. Today Im telling you something that will come about.
God bless.
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Here's some study Ray did on the question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11614.0.html
Jesus tells the thief: "today you will be with me in paradise"
Amazing what a difference the proper placing of a comma will do to the meaning of a sentence.
Luke 23:43 should read as follows: "Verily [truly], to you am I saying TODAY, [comma] with Me shall you be in paradise."
Punctuation was not inspired or used in the original Manuscripts from which our modern language Bibles have been translated. Christ DID NOT go to a place called "paradise" on the day that He was crucified, and neither did anyone else. Here is proof:
When placing the comma where it should go, the meaning is that Christ told the thief "today" that "with Me SHALL [future] you be in paradise."
Christ was in the "heart of the earth" (a rock tomb) for three whole days and nights following His crucifixion: "For EVEN AS Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, THUS WILL the Son of Mankind be in the HEART OF THE EARTH THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS" (Matt. 12:40).
Christ was to return to HEAVEN after His crucifixion. But Heaven is NEVER CALLED PARADISE. Paradise is a Persian word that means a beautiful garden (as in the Garden of Eden, not Heaven).
Just before dying, Jesus said, "Father, into thy hands am I committing MY SPIRIT." So upon death Christ's spirit returned to God, just as ours also do (Luke 23:46). Though Christ's spirit returned to God, Christ (Himself) was DEAD! Christ DIED on the cross for our sins: He did NOT go to paradise for our sins!
Christ's BODY was put into a Tomb, "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb..." (Mat. 27:59-60). Christ's body did NOT go to a place called paradise. The ONLY SIGN that Christ gave the Pharisees that He was indeed the Messiah was the length of time that He would remain dead in the grave. ""Three days AND three nights"--and even the very sign that Jesus gave of His Messiahship is denied by virtually all of Christendom. They change three days and three nights to Friday sunset until Easter [a totally pagan name and goddess] Sunday morning (barely one and a half days).
Christ's "soul" went to the realm of "hades" (the UNSEEN OR IMPERCEPTIBLE), NOT a "paradise."
AFTER Jesus was crucified, dead, and buried, and AFTER three days and three nights, and AFTER He was resurrected, He said to Meriam, "Do NOT TOUCH ME, for NOT AS YET HAVE I ASCENDED TO MY FATHER" (John 20:17). So even AFTER His resurrection, He was NOT IN A PLACE CALLED PARADISE WITH THE THIEF, but rather conversing with Meriam and the Disciples for forty days.
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It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF --"That VERY DAY the thief went with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradise to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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The last response is the most powerful, in my opinion.
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Thanks for the responses, i thought i heard Ray mention that comma placement before but i wasn't 100% sure.
stello
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Is there any other instance where Jesus talked like that? Meaning, is there another verse where Jesus made a statement that began with 'I tell you today..' Where a comma should be placed after 'today'?
I know He often began a statement with 'truly truly I say to you...' But where else did He ever say 'I tell you today(comma)....'
Why say 'today' at all? It's not like the thief on the cross didn't know that Jesus was speaking to him 'today' as opposed to yesterday or tomorrow.
'I say to you yesterday, ' or 'I say to you tomorrow,' why say 'today' unless it is necessary in understanding the truth He was speaking?
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Remember, you are dealing with a translation. Here are some KJV with the comma after to day. First quote by Jesus.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Heb 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
It's like saying "I'm telling you now" - Same as saying "I'm telling you today"
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Shifting the comma seems to be a bit of a lame solution because then there is no real sense in using the word,it becomes sort of meaningless that is of course if the word was meant to mean "to-day " as we understand it. The JW's have shifted the comma in their bible as you probably know. In 2 Cor 12 :2-4 we read the words "the third heaven" and "paradise" having the same meaning. Could it be that as Christ and the thief were both dying that day, that Christ meant the resurrection , as while the thief was dead he would have no recollection of the period of time he was dead ?
Wim
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Shifting the comma seems to be a bit of a lame solution because then there is no real sense in using the word,it becomes sort of meaningless that is of course if the word was meant to mean "to-day " as we understand it. The JW's have shifted the comma in their bible as you probably know. In 2 Cor 12 :2-4 we read the words "the third heaven" and "paradise" having the same meaning. Could it be that as Christ and the thief were both dying that day, that Christ meant the resurrection , as while the thief was dead he would have no recollection of the period of time he was dead ?
Wim
The thieves will eventually be in paradise like all humans but they are not the elect.
There is no sense of time while you are dead. There is nothing.
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The main point is that this 'verse' is not it's own interpretation either. Other 'rules' apply as well, as the thief was NOT a hand-picked disciple. There are scores of 'verses' which clearly tell us what the state of the dead is like. Scores of 'verses' which talk about the 'need' for resurrection, and it being our only hope. Jesus did not contradict Himself on the cross.
The thief asked to be remembered when Jesus came into His kingdom. First, how did the thief know Jesus HAD a Kingdom? Second, what did he know about this Kingdom. Third, what did he THINK he knew about this Kingdom. There's something about the request itself that causes me to think 'deeper' than the preachers I've heard. Why should I think that the thief had the same theological understanding as most Christian theologians who take this to mean 'heaven'?
Jesus is telling Him something true, just as He told His disciples on the many, many, many occasions they asked about His Kingdom and he answered and/or taught with parables.
Jesus' answer doesn't address the Thief's request in the way the thief may have been hoping or expecting--no matter where you put the comma. If somebody were to ask ME to remember her when I saw the moon, it would be perfectly rational to answer her with a statement that says I will remember her today, and not wait until I saw the moon. (comma option 1). Then remember her (again) when I saw the moon, whether I told her I would or not. (comma option 1 with 'scriptural witnesses'). It would also be perfectly rational to answer her, that right now I am telling her I will remember her when I see the moon (comma option 2).
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Could also be one of those things intended to trip up "the many" a lot like Jesus' parables do. They don't need a second witness.
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Hi everyone , we also know that all must go through judgement!
Jeremiah 49:12 (KJV)
12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken;
Is that the thief on the cross who hasn't drank of the cup?
Isa 26:9 for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin ( if it begins then its first ) at the house of God:
Was the thief of the house of God and did he really go through judgement, I think not.
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is
1 Peter 1:7 (KJV)
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Something to ask your self, did the thief go through judgement by fire?
Like Dave said, the verse is not of its own interpretation, thanks Dave that was a great post. But I think if we look at what it takes to enter the Kingdom of God, the thief still has to pass through the fire!
Zechariah 13:9 (KJV)
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried:
1 Peter 4:12 (KJV)
12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Anyhow thats how I see it. Reading the lake of fire series makes it clear what it will take to become a son of God, FIRE for our GOD is a CONSUMING FIRE...
R.P and J
Michael
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One more point, these men crucified at the same time as Christ were "criminals" (verse 32). There was never a mention by Christ or Luke the author of the book or any other that the man that spoke to Christ was a brethren/believer.
Of much more significance is the man on the cross died BEFORE Christ was resurrected, so before the Spirit of Christ had come into people. Therefore besides not being a brethren, he would not have been eligible for the first resurrection, no more than John the Baptist was. Therefore the man asked to be remembered by Christ could not have been chosen. But Christ gave him a little glimpse of what the next age that the man would get to be a part of would be, a paradise. Just a point I thought worth mentioning.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat Excellent point thank you.
John 16:7-16 (ESV)
7 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Luk 24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
John 14:26 (ESV)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
I guess if the thief was dead in the grave, none of the scriptures above would apply to him.
Michael
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TS1998 And יהושע said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise"
Deu 4:40 “And you shall guard His laws and His commands which I command you TODAY, so that it is well with you and with your children after you..,"
Deu 6:6 "And these words that I am commanding you TODAY,shall be on your heart"
Deu 7:11 “And you shall guard the command, and the laws, and the right-rulings which I command you TODAY, to do them."
Deu 31:27 "for I myself know your rebellion and your stiff neck. See, while I am still alive with you TODAY, you have been rebellious against יהוה, then how much more after my death? "
Deu 32:46 he said to them, “Set your heart on all the words with which I warn you TODAY, so that you command your children to guard to do all the Words..."
Mar 14:30 And יהושע said to him, “Truly, I say to you that TODAY, this night, before the cock shall crow twice, you shall deny Me three times.”
Act 26:29 And Sha’ul said, “Much or little, I pray to Elohim that not only you, but also all who hear me TODAY, might become such as I also am.."
Heb 3:15 while it is said, “TODAY, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
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Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
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Willem, it's true that there are numerous events in the bible which have no "Second Witness". There was only one thief on the cross who said this, and only one reply from Jesus. It's only recorded in Luke's gospel. But that's not what a 'second witness' IS.
Shechiyn posted that list of scripture to answer Largeli's question: "Is there any other instance where Jesus talked like that? Meaning, is there another verse where Jesus made a statement that began with 'I tell you today..' Where a comma should be placed after 'today'?" Clearly, there is...assuming you believe as I do that Jehovah OT is Jesus NT.
I wanted to point out it is a contradiction with other scripture to say that Jesus told the thief that this very day he would be with Him in paradise...especially if that means the 'common' meaning of 'heaven'. It's theologians who make the contradictions based on ONE VERSE and their traditions. Of course, theologians are not all professional.
I'll go a step or two further, though it may be a small matter. I'm not 100% sure that the thief was the complete 'repentant sinner' that I learned about in Sunday School. Nor am I 100% sure that the paradise Jesus mentioned is a "land of sunshine and raining M&M's". Ray seems to be hinting at this in his reply to the emails which I quoted above. It matters nothing where you put the comma, in this instance. Jesus spoke to and for us all who are asking/hoping to be remembered.
It's difficult to study scripture without ANY preconceptions, but I do my best to read it with as few as possible. I'm a believer, but I question everything I hear to see if it 'be so'. So far, any 'new truth' I've uncovered or has been uncovered for me has been far better than any 'old truth' it has replaced.
I'll only add this. Nobody "shifted the comma"...not even the KJV translators. Greek had no such punctuation. Translators "placed it", and other translators "place it" elsewhere.
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Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
That is an odd comment to make... "I really expected more !" chastising the rest when you did not bring anything significant to the discussion. People come to these discussions and make comments to try an help one another, a second witness is always searched for and very few times (if ever) is there not more on any particular point, sometimes it is just not realized. I feel it's a great help to see what other Scripture people bring to a discussion.
But we are all un-learning so many of the common beliefs of the church that have tripped us up so much and kept us from the truth. That's the great benefit of these threads, we are able to discuss all the aspects of these Scriptures that have been misunderstood. I appreciated every contribution made here.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Therefore besides not being a brethren, he would not have been eligible for the first resurrection, no more than John the Baptist was.
Do you mean John was not chosen to be part of the first resurrection? What about Abraham? Doesn't the scripture talk about Abraham believing God and it was imparted to him as righteousness? Just need a little help understanding what makes one eligible to be in the first resurrection. Thanks!
stello
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Hi Stello,
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Luke 10:23-24 (KJV)
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Jesus hadn't been to the cross yet
Hebrews 7:19 (KJV)
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Hebrews 7:22 (KJV)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Hebrews 8:6 (KJV)
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises
Michael
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Therefore besides not being a brethren, he would not have been eligible for the first resurrection, no more than John the Baptist was.
Do you mean John was not chosen to be part of the first resurrection? What about Abraham? Doesn't the scripture talk about Abraham believing God and it was imparted to him as righteousness? Just need a little help understanding what makes one eligible to be in the first resurrection. Thanks!
stello
Hi Stello,
Yes none of the patriarch, prophets or even John the Baptist will be in the first resurrection, because as Michael showed the Scripture they all died before Christ was sacrificed and did not receive the promise.
Mat 11:11 Truly I say to you, Among those who have been born of women there has not risen a greater one than John the Baptist. But the least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.
Nobody will/can be in the first Resurrection accept "through" Jesus Christ.
Acts 4:11 This is the Stone which you builders have counted worthless, and He has become the Head of the Corner.
v. 12 And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
2Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
The God of the OT that we know as the Savior of the world was not yet born into the world for those in the old covenant time. It was only by the life and death of Christ as the perfect sacrifice that any will be saved. Jesus is the only way, He is the Good Shepherd and the Door to the few now and the rest later.
John 10:9 I am the Door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Jon 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
v. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
We must know Christ, just as He knows us and that is only possible if you have heard the gospel message of His life and death and resurrection as the Savior of the world. Only now since Christ came and the new covenant replaced the old are a few being brought/drawn to Christ to receive His spirit.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah! He has blessed us in the Messiah with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realm, 4 just as He chose us in the Messiah before the creation of the universe to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5 He predestined us for adoption to Himself through Jesus the Messiah, according to the pleasure of His will, 6 so that we would praise His glorious grace that He gave us in the Beloved One. 7 In union with Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our offenses, according to the riches of God's grace 8 that He lavished on us, along with all wisdom and understanding, 9 when He made known to us the secret of His will. This was according to His plan that He set forth in the Messiah 10 to usher in the fullness of the times and to bring together in the Messiah all things in heaven and on earth. 11 In the Messiah we were also chosen when we were predestined according to the purpose of the one who does everything that He wills to do, 12 so that we who had already fixed our hope on the Messiah might live for His praise and glory. 13 You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in the Messiah, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until God redeems His own possession for His praise and glory. (ISV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ok i understand now, thanks!
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Well said Kat, thanks.
So now if you please, what will be the situation when King David is resurrected at a future time remembering that he David was King, only to find the Lord Jesus sitting upon David's throne in Jerusalem. Is that a spiritually discerned event or will Jesus be visibly on that throne for all to see?
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Hi Bob, just in my own words..
Will Jesus really be sitting on a throne made by the hands of man?
Is not his throne already established? Where is his throne? I have seen Him and I know that will be hard for you or others to believe and I am not boasting in myself but in the Lord. At my conversion I seen the very same light that the Apostle Paul talked about. But did I see a man standing before me, NO.I am starting to see Him in everything. Will king David see a man literally sitting on a physical throne, I don't think so. No Jesus has a place where he sits on His throne and all those that come to him must come down off of his throne and let The King sit in His rightfully place.
I believe that the few can see Him and thats because they can look back. As the apostle John said, I turned and I saw, he seen in the spirit and Jesus Is Spirit. Did all whom he has chosen see Him, I think in the spirit they seen Him and all those yet to come will see Him in the spirit...
He rules in the kingdom of men ( where is His kingdom, its in the heart of man ) and none can stay His Hand. And how does He rule, he rules because His throne is in the heart of man and he will sit on His Throne In ALL. And then He will be ALL IN ALL...
When they were putting the nails in His hands who do you think he seen?
Remember just in my words!
Michael
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Maybe I was wrong there a little , by not adding this! ;)
The heavens declare the Glory of God!! I guess they all can see, but will they know Its God?
Michael
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Hi Michael,
A word of advice:It is not wise to give "your own words" or understanding to a question asked and then turn around and say "maybe I wrong a little."
The fact that you say "maybe I wrong a little" proves that you are not 100% sure about what you are talking about.
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Hi Shechiyn,
Quote from: Shechiyn on Today at 06:24:10 PM
Hi Michael,
A word of advice:It is not wise to give "your own words" or understanding to a question asked and then turn around and say "maybe I wrong a little."
The fact that you say "maybe I wrong a little" proves that you are not 100% sure about what you are talking about
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Ok Thats Fine, Show me where I am wrong? I am 100 percent sure you can't !!
Maybe I could Have said that different? Maybe I could have said, I could also add this because it was was wrong for me not to !
Anyhow I am 100 % percent sure thats what I wrote and I also said it was in my words. Take it as you like thats why this is called a discussion!
I see that most don't like to it when a uneducated man has some thing to say. Just because I haven't been on this forum for years does not mean that God has been dealing with me only a short time. Tell me where there is something that doesn't line up with the word and then I will gladly show you from the scriptures that indeed It does. I wander if the apostle after years of study the word had to quote every scripture and tell it exactly as it was written, or did they just talk plainly? All bet in there plain talk they may had said somethings that were a little odd, but I also bet there was not much doubt about the truth they spoke!!
Back to my statement
Quote
Maybe I wrong there a little.
The heavens declare the Glory of God!! I guess they all can see, but will they know Its God
( ( if thats all you got for anything I said was wrong then I am ok with that ) Not bad for grade 6 education.
What was I wrong in there? The only thing I can see i was wrong about was to not have it in my first statement !
Maybe I wrong there a little
The heavens declare the Glory of God!! ( and yes they do! ) I guess they all can see, ( and yes they can see, look around you ) but will they know Its God ? ( No they don't , they are blind to it )
Thank you Shechiyn
In Christ Michael
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Well said Kat, thanks.
So now if you please, what will be the situation when King David is resurrected at a future time remembering that he David was King, only to find the Lord Jesus sitting upon David's throne in Jerusalem. Is that a spiritually discerned event or will Jesus be visibly on that throne for all to see?
Hi Bob,
I do not believe there would be a physical throne either, what seems to be meant is Christ has a symbolic seat/position as the King with authority to rule and judge. And as King of kings His 'throne' is over the whole world.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Christ’s throne and the throne of the Father are the same and it is on the same throne that those who are chosen and faithful unto death are finally to sit on as well... and it means that this authority is from the top down, the Father having all authority and gives it to whom He chooses.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Now as for David, I believe He will be resurrected with the patriarchs and the prophets and many other kings that ruled the earth and each will have to give account before Christ and there will certainly be those that He will recognize for their living a righteous life, relative to this world anyway.
1Cor 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
When you consider all the people that will be resurrected back to life, there will be a need for some people to serve Christ and the elect on earth... I mean there would be a need for administrators to make up the physical aspect of the kingdom and His government on earth. Maybe that is what is meant by this Scripture.
Matt 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
There are many kings, as well as David, that have proven from their lives that they ruled in righteousness when they lived on earth. I believe overall rulership is for Christ and the elect, so I don't know if there will actually be physical 'kings' on earth in the next age. But I think there could be many serving Christ physically on earth as they learn the truth of the gospel.
As I have said there will be many righteous people of faith to be raised from OT times and they will certainly not need God's wrath, but will need to learn of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is just some thoughts I have on this from what I see in Scripture.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy. I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life? I'm just perplexed.
As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons.
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Imagine Ray spending 10years+ on his writing and at the end of it all he says,"maybe I wrong there a little."
Imagine Jesus teaching his disciples for 3yrs and at the end he says,"maybe I wrong there a little."
Imagine a teacher teaching 1+1=2 then at the end the teacher says,"maybe I wrong there a little."
This would prove that the teacher is not "100 percent" sure of his own understanding.
Michael,you say"Thats Fine, Show me where I am wrong? I am 100 percent sure you can't!"
I didn't say you are wrong.If I did,quote me,"I am 100 percent sure you can't."
You are the one that said you MIGHT be wrong.Not me!I'll remind YOU what YOU said about your own post:"maybe I wrong the a little."
So perhaps you need to convince yourself that you are not wrong!
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Well Shechiyn, Yes Ray was a educated man, a man with a degree, and he himself said he had to go back and make correction, so I guess I am ok with it as well.
And I certainly am not a man with out a canal heart.
Just show me where I was wrong in what I was referencing to and I will be fine with that.
In Christ Michael
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I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy. I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life? I'm just perplexed.
As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons.
If there is a solid chronology in this, it is that Jesus died, bodies came out of death, they stayed in the tombs (not the same as the 'graves' we are accustomed to in the US and most of the west--more akin to the 'graveyards') until after His resurrection, then went into the city. But there may not be an exact chronology for the 'event' of their being raised out of 'sleep'. In any event, I don't think this is the 'Resurrection of the dead' that Jesus experienced and those in Him will experience in like manner. People rose from sleep both before and after this event. Maybe, from time to time, it STILL happens. They did not raise with incorruptible bodies. I don't know if this is the point you were questioning, but thought I'd slip it in here.
As for the Old Testament saints not being in the first resurrection, here's a couple of additional verses to consider:
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
Joh_20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Are the saints and prophets of Old included among those who have NOT SEEN Him, yet believed? I think so.
The Chosen are under a New Covenant, one which is not in accord with the Old, and is Superior. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up... There is a Divine order to all these things. Looking at it both practically and Spiritually, this is the right order that He's established. It is the most powerful order, and the one of most benefit to all concerned...that's everybody.
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Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM. We're not going to have it on the open forum.
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Please take any back-and-forth discussion to PM. We're not going to have it on the open forum.
Sorry Dave and others your right
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I guess I'm still not quite there with this line of thinking. I was reading this and I just can't wrap my head around it in terms of the old testament followers.
Matthew 27 says- " At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
Who are these 'holy' people? They obviously died before Jesus died and here they are being resurrected and being called holy. I do believe they were probably people that were known by the people around them or how else would they have known they died and had come back to life? I'm just perplexed.
As far as the thief goes- Matthew 27:44 says the 'rebels' were hurling insults at Jesus along with the others. So, the one thief may have had a change of heart but it sure wasn't too long after he was mocking Jesus. Paradise that day with Jesus makes no biblical sense for several reasons.
I do believe that those people raised back to life at the death of Jesus, was a profound event to mark of the magnitude of what had just happened. And I do believe they were believers, saints and many translations have it, who were given a physical life again (as were others resurrected by Jesus and even the apostles lives), but they lived on to die as all people do. But it would seem to have been a great witness to the believers at the time and even for us now, that Jesus' death was no ordinary death, and God signified it with the raising up of some that believed in Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dear all
I as a little naughty and I knew it when I posted my first comment , but I really expected more !
When I referred to the resurrection I never had the first resurrection in mind , the thief was not a saint or elect. That I expected all of you to know. In our diligence to find second witnesses in the Bible and to quote a whole series from Deuteronomy ... those really have no bearing on the circumstances on the cross . This was a unique occurrence and there are other in the Bible where you will find it very difficult to find a second witness unless you "read " it in to fit your argument.
Kind regards,love and blessings , Wim
The SUM of God's word is truth. Its really not hard at all to find witnesses to the idea that no man has currently ascended to heaven but our Lord. There are many witnesses to the fact that when a man dies, he is dead, not in paradise. He awaits the ressurection.
Psalm 6:4-5 Turn, Lord! Rescue me; save me because of Your faithful love. For there is no remembrance of You in death; who can thank You in the grave?
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hands find to do, do with all your strength, because there is no work, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Death is likened to sleep in the scriptures.
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
Deuteronomy 31:16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers...
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...
Even Jesus likens the state of the dead to that of sleep:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." (John 11:11-13).
When do the dead awaken from their sleep where they know not anything? Instantly as the theif being immediately in paradise?
(Notice too that like God, Paul, under inspiration of the Spirit likens death to sleep)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When Jesus returns at the last trumpet, He will raise all the dead back to life.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The dead really are dead. They aren't up in heaven or down in hell. The whole of scripture testifies to this truth, both old and new testament.
Jesus also said no man has gone up to heaven, not even the theif!
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man.
Do you think Jesus knows what He's talking about?
And just incase it isn't already clear, the Resurrection isn't a past thing:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Its still future, that 'LAST trumpet' (See above verses for reference) when Jesus returns to establish His kingdom!
This is precisely why NO VERSE is at all becoming its OWN interpretation! That in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2Pe_1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation."
Psa_119:160 The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Mat_18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2Co_13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
In Christ,
Alex
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Thanks Kat for all your insight, it helps a lot
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HI Bt family, I was just rereading this thread and I was thinking about the ones who rose from the dead after Christ's resurrection. We know that the Holy Spirit has not come at this time, so I'm wondering are the saints that rose after Jesus did, could they be a part of the 120 in the upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 1: 13.14 gives a few names, but not all names, so could it be? I also have been preplexed about this as Octoberose has, but sitting here meditating on it, this thought came to my mind and I wanted to share it with y'all. They surely would make good witnesses to the resurrection, especially if they had been dead awhile.
These are just my hunble thoughts on the matter.
Your sister in christ Jesus,
Virginia Miller
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Hi Virginia, I think you have hit on something there.
Isn't that amazing to think about... that there were those followers of Christ that died sometime 'before' His resurrection, but when resurrected back to a physical life when Christ was crucified they could then go on to receive the Holy Spirit. So they too could partake in the first resurrection at Christ's return.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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HI Bt family, I was just rereading this thread and I was thinking about the ones who rose from the dead after Christ's resurrection. We know that the Holy Spirit has not come at this time, so I'm wondering are the saints that rose after Jesus did, could they be a part of the 120 in the upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 1: 13.14 gives a few names, but not all names, so could it be? I also have been preplexed about this as Octoberose has, but sitting here meditating on it, this thought came to my mind and I wanted to share it with y'all. They surely would make good witnesses to the resurrection, especially if they had been dead awhile.
These are just my hunble thoughts on the matter.
Your sister in christ Jesus,
Virginia Miller
Hi all,
What about the patriarchs and prophets of old? Could it include them? It was never clear to me if they would be in the first resurrection or not. We are told they would not precede us. So will they be in the first resurrection???
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
:-\
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Hi Joe, thinking about those people raised at the time of Christ's death, they were not just random people, they were His followers, they already knew Him, they were "saints."
Mat 27:50 Then Jesus cried out with a loud voice again and died.
v. 51 Suddenly the curtain in the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, rocks were split open,
v. 52 tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
v. 53 After his resurrection, they came out of their tombs and went into the Holy City and appeared to many people.
But since these saints had died BEFORE the Holy Spirit had come, they could not obtain the first resurrection... that would include the patriarchs and prophets of old. Though the prophets and patriarchs knew of a Messiah to come, they had never heard the name Jesus, much less about His life, the gospel message, so they could not accepted Him as their Lord and Savior.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So it seems that those saints physical resurrection back to life not only marked the momentous event, Christ's death, but also gave a few of His followers the chance to receive the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, which was not given until AFTER His ascension at Pentecost.
John 16:7 But I tell you the truth, it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you. But if I depart, I will send Him to you.
John 15:26 And when the Comforter has come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He shall testify of Me.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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HI Bt family, I was just rereading this thread and I was thinking about the ones who rose from the dead after Christ's resurrection. We know that the Holy Spirit has not come at this time, so I'm wondering are the saints that rose after Jesus did, could they be a part of the 120 in the upper room waiting for the promise of the Holy Spirit? Acts 1: 13.14 gives a few names, but not all names, so could it be? I also have been preplexed about this as Octoberose has, but sitting here meditating on it, this thought came to my mind and I wanted to share it with y'all. They surely would make good witnesses to the resurrection, especially if they had been dead awhile.
These are just my hunble thoughts on the matter.
Your sister in christ Jesus,
Virginia Miller
Hi all,
What about the patriarchs and prophets of old? Could it include them? It was never clear to me if they would be in the first resurrection or not. We are told they would not precede us. So will they be in the first resurrection???
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
:-\
TRUTH NUMBER 3
[A] "Therefore speak I to them in parables, because they seeing SEE NOT: and hearing they HEAR NOT, NEITHER DO THEY UNDERSTAND" (Matt. 13:13).
[..b] "How is it that you [disciples] DO NOT UNDERSTAND…" (Matt. 16:11).
[C] "But they [the disciples] UNDERSTOOD NOT this saying, and it was HID from them…" (Luke 9:45).
What was it that Christ’s disciples and apostles understood not? Surely they understood His spiritual teachings, did they not? What is it that they "…understood NOT" about Jesus’ sayings? Truth number 3 will reveal this shocking truth to us.
That Jesus hid the meaning of his teachings from the masses, we have clearly been told already in Truth #2. But now I am going to show you something even more profound. Most in fact, will not believe the Scriptures before their own eyes.
The King James "parables" to the masses and the "proverbs" to the Apostles is translated from the very same Greek word:
Both "parable" and "proverb" are translated from the Greek— G3850 parabole par-ab-ol-ay' From G3846; a similitude ("parable"), that is, (symbolically) fictitious narrative (of common life conveying a moral), apoth gm or adage: - comparison, figure, parable, proverb.
This is really childish that I should even have to explain to Christians that a "parabolay" really is a "FICTITIOUS narrative, and therefore is not a literal story at all. Oh what religion has done to otherwise perfectly sane minds.
Just for the record, here are just a few of the definitions of "fictitious" from my dictionary: "fictitious, adj, artificial, feigned, fiction, imaginary, syn, false, fabrication, deception, incredible [unbelievable], impossibility, nonexistent, invented, distortion of historical facts" etc., etc., etc. From: Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition, page 465.
How many reading this paper will now believe and concede that parables are not literally true stories? Virtually none. As I have said for a long time now: "Christendom is a religion of contradictions and square circles." And they love to have it so.
That Jesus taught the multitudes including the Scribes and Pharisees in "parables" [parabolay] which means: "FICTITIOUS narratives," is stated numerous times in the Scriptures. And clearly the multitudes along with the Scribes and Pharisees did not understand any of it.
Actually the Bible as a whole is one giant parable. Tis true, but I don’t have time to go into that right now.
And now for the shocker of shockers: Ask any Christian and he will tell you: "Jesus taught His disciples in "plain, literal, simple language." Maybe the multitudes, the masses, the Scribes and the Pharisees, didn’t understand Christ’s teachings, but surely the Apostles understood His teachings. Oh really? And do we have chapter and verse on that? Do we have two witnesses on that? No we don’t because it isn’t true.
Here’s how Jesus taught His own disciples, even in private:
"These things have I spoken unto you in PROVERBS: but the time comes [not yet, but in the future] when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you PLAINLY of the Father" (John 16:25).
By Jesus’ own admission, He didn’t teach or speak to even His Own apostles "plainly."
Now for a little humor: After Jesus spoke these words to His apostles He explains how He came out from the Father into the world and that He would again leave this world and that He would then plainly make known to them the Father. Not wanting to admit to their total ignorance of what Jesus was saying:
"His disciples said unto Him, Lo NOW SPEAK YOU PLAINLY, AND SPEAK NO PROVERB. Now ARE WE SURE THAT You know all things, and need not that any man should ask You: by this we believe that You came forth from God" (John 16:29-30).
Jesus responded: "Oh really?" Well, those are not His exact words (that is what I would have said). Jesus responded: "DO you NOW believe?" (Verse 31). Of course they didn’t. They had not a clue as to what Jesus was spiritually saying.
The word for "plainly" is taken from the Greek—G3954 a parrhe�sia par-rhay-see'-ah From G3956 and a derivative of G4483; all out spokenness, that is, frankness, bluntness, publicity; by implication assurance: - bold (X -ly, -ness, -ness of speech), confidence, X freely, X openly, X plainly (-ness).
So Jesus promised that at some time in the future He would speak to them no longer in proverbs, but "plainly"—frankness, bluntness, assurance, confidently, feely, openly. Hence His "proverbs" were NOT, frank, blunt, assured, confident, free, open, and plain! No wonder the disciples and even the Apostles "understood not" the teachings of Jesus Christ. Do we have any "witnesses" or "spiritual matches" to that effect? Many:
"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him [and why did they ‘ask Him?’ because they did not know or understand His parables] the parable… And he said unto them, Know you NOT this parable? [Why of course they did not know this parable] and how then will ye know all parables?" (Mark 4:10 & 13).
To know "all parables," they needed to know "this parable." But since they clearly and admittedly did not know "this parable," neither did they know any of the parables. The Apostles of Jesus Christ followed Jesus for three and one half years, and never understood the parables, even though they understood certain principles contained in a few parables.
The multitudes did not understand Jesus’ parables; the Scribes and Pharisees did not understand Jesus’ parables; the hundreds of disciples did not understand Jesus’ parables, and as unbelievable as it may sound, not even the APOSTLES understood Jesus’ parables. Now get ready for another shock:
Not only did none of the above including the Apostles themselves, understand any of Jesus’ parables, but they did not understand the parables after Jesus EXPLAINED the parables! And how is such a thing even possible? Well, get ready for an even greater shock:
The reason they didn’t understand the parables even after Jesus explained them, is because Jesus explained His parables WITH ANOTHER PARABLE! That’s right, Jesus explained the parables that the Apostles themselves didn’t understand, by another parable, which they also did not understand.
In Matt. 13:10, we read, "And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speak you unto them in parables?" In verse 11 Jesus said it is given to His disciples to understand (but He didn’t say WHEN it was given for them to understand), and then in verse 12 Jesus says:
"For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has."
In other words, another parable. Jesus explained the first parable that they didn’t understand with another parable, which they did not understand.
A little later:
"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house, and His disciples came unto Him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man: the field is the world…,"
Etc., etc., which is nothing more than yet another parable to explain a previous parable.
Jesus does not explain "the children of the kingdom," "the children of the wicked one," "the devil," "the reaper angels," "the end of the world," "The Son of man," "furnace of fire," "the kingdom of their Father," anymore than He explained what the first version of the parable was, and therefore, He had to add this to the end of His explanation: "Who has ears to hear, let him hear." But none there had "ears to ear," as we shall now see conclusively proven.
After several more parables:
"Jesus said unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, YEA, Lord" (Matt. 13:51).
They understood nothing.
In chapter 15 we read:
"And He called the multitude, and said unto them, hear, and understand" (Matt. 15:10).
And He gives them another parable. Then Peter questions this parable,
"Then answered Peter and said unto Him, Declare unto US this parable. And Jesus said, Are ye ALSO yet without understanding? Do NOT ye yet understand…?" (Verses 15, 16, 17a).
Yes, the multitudes and the disciples "also" were without understanding.
In the next chapter we read this:
"Then Jesus said unto them [His disciples], Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. And they reasoned among themselves, Saying, It is because we have taken no bread. Which when Jesus perceived, He said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves because he have brought no bread? Do ye NOT YET UNDERSTAND; How is it that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND?" (Matt. 16:6-9a & 11).
Then in verse 11 it says they understood that Jesus meant the "doctrines" of the Pharisees, but they still didn’t know what the doctrines of the Pharisees were.
"And He [Jesus] said unto them [His disciples], How is it that YE DO NOT UNDERSTAND?" (Mark 8:21).
"But THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT that saying, and were afraid to ask Him" (Mark 9:32).
Jesus said unto His disciples:
"Let these sayings sink down into your ears… But THEY UNDERSTOOD NOT this saying, and it was HID from them, that they perceived it NOT; and they feared to ask Him of that saying" (Luke 9:44-45).
"These things UNDERSTOOD NOT His disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified [after His resurrection] then remembered they that these things were written of Him…" (John 12:16).
Three and one half years Jesus taught His disciples. Three and one half years they heard Him teach in the synagogues hundreds of times. Yet, how much did they truly understand?
"Then He took unto Him the twelve, and said unto them. Behold we go up to Jerusalem, and ALL THINGS that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished… and THEY UNDERSTOOD NONE of these things: and this saying was HID from them, NEITHER KNEW they the things which were spoken" (Luke 18:31-34).
How many things written in the prophets concerning the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus did the disciples understand? "NONE."
At Jesus’ last meeting after His resurrection with His apostles we read:
"And He said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you [words which they never understood] that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me [in other words, the entire Hebrew Scriptures]. Then [When? ‘THEN.’ Not during their three and one half years of learning at His feet? NO, ‘then’] opened He their understanding, that they might understand the Scriptures [ALL of the Scriptures]" (Luke 24:44-45).
Why did Jesus reveal His message, His gospel, His kingdom, His word to so very few people? Christ’s answer is much harder for most to believe than the parables themselves:
"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, WHY speak You unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven [not at that precise time, but eventually, after His resurrection] but to them it is not given [not then OR later]. For whosoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has [another parable answers the reason for parables]. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand [here Jesus gives us a parable within a riddle].
"And in them [and in all future generations down through the centuries, save a very small elect few] is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand, and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart [the people’s heart in Isaiah’s day, Christ’s day, through the generations, and in our day] is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should HEAL them [SAVE them].
"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, that many prophets and righteous men [all the patriarchs of the Old Testament] have desired to see those things which you see, and have NOT seen them, and to hear those things which you hear, and have NOT heard them" (Matt. 13:10-17).
I doubt that many of my readers are comprehending the marvelous truths contained in the above passages. The prophets THEMSELVES (even Isaiah himself), desired to see these things, but did NOT see them. All of the Apostles and New Testament writers understood that the patriarchs of old including the prophets themselves, did not understand their own prophesies, therefore they were not converted, and they are not saved. These things are for those who come after Christ, not before:
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto YOU [not unto them!]: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow [not come BEFORE, in their day and time].
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US they did minister [‘for OUR admonition upon whom the ends of the ages are come, I Cor. 10:11] the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto YOU at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:10-13).
Therefore I repeat once more:
"And these all [all the saints and all the prophets, Ver. 32], having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT the promise: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that they without US should NOT be made perfect [be saved]" (Heb. 11:39-40).
These and many more Scriptures prove the Church’s teaching that people who die unsaved will never be saved, is a damnable heresy. Until you concede in your heart that neither the parables nor the interpretation of the parables are literal, you will know no more of the plan of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ than the Apostles did before they were converted and had God’s Holy Spirit.
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm