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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Ian 155 on February 23, 2013, 06:01:50 PM
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Anyone know what Ray meant here while discussing Rev chap 13
approx 3/4 of the way into the paper lof 1
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I have also been wondering what Ray meant by this statement. As of now I see 52 of us have viewed this post with out a comment. Those who were very close to Ray will probably have the answer. Bob P.S. I hope, this has taken up too many of my limited brain cells already..
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Hi Ian,
First there is the comment you were speaking of. Then I have put several places where Ray spoke of what this 'buying and selling' was.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------
Will people be literally tattooed with marks (bar codes, swastikas, Social Security numbers, implanted with computer chips or one of a hundred unscriptural marks being suggested by fundamentalist prophets) in their hands and on their foreheads so that men cannot buy or sell ice cream or automobiles without these marks? Self-appointed prophets of doom haven’t a clue as to what this mark of the beast really is or the number of his name. I have already been bared from buying and selling recently because I refuse to brandish this "mark of the beast"!
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------
Jesus said that they "made the House of Prayer a DEN OF THIEVES"!
Say, did you notice that they were buying and selling "…in the Temple?" Do you think that just maybe this has anything to do with the fact that,
"…NO MAN might BUY OR SELL, save he that had the MARK OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME" (Rev. 13:17)?
We will cover the Mark of the Beast in a later installment.
But this is all ancient history, isn’t it? The modern Church of God has not been turned into a "den of thieves" has it? Were the High priests and Scribes, going against the law of either their own religious beliefs or of Rome? No. No, they weren’t. So they were not "thieves" according to the Church or the Roman government. But were they thieves, nonetheless? Yes, they were, Jesus Christ SAID THEY WERE THIEVES, a whole "DEN OF THIEVES"!
At least the modern Church of God is not a "den of thieves," is it? I’m sure not all; you can be the judge:
One of the major factors in the Reformation was the disdain over the practice of the Church selling INDULGENCES. The American Heritage College Dictionary, "indulgence n. 6. Roman Catholic Church The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."
Make no mistake about it:
"For the love of money is the [Gk. ‘a’] root of all evil" (I Tim. 6:10).
Before the Reformation, it was thought that one could practically "buy" one’s salvation.
Jesus "CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple." Is there, "buying and selling" going on in the Church today? Excuse me…does a cat have a tail?
http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm ---------------------------
Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:
"And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
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These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.
Yes Ray was kicked out of the church and I think that is what he meant in that comment.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I don't have Ray's exact quote about this but I know that I had saved it on one of my computers.
Ray said that he was looking for a room to hold a meeting and apparently he went to a few churches. They wanted to see his 'mark'. Did he have ministerial credentials? What denomination was he? Since Ray didn't have those marks to display they wouldn't rent to him. It was something along this line that he meant.
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I know exactly what Ray was talking about because I remember talking about it.
We run groups of ads on Google. I submitted a new group for approval and it got rejected. This group was similar to the other groups but the person whose job it was to approve or reject it did not agree with what our ads were saying and banned the ads. We were barred from buying those ads because of what we believed.
Being banned by Google is not entirely what the bible is talking about. But it could be a small part of it. We will not know for sure what it means until we see it begin to happen. Right now the best we can do is guess.
If Ray were here I'm sure he would agree there is much more to it than this one incident with Google.
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hmmm interesting... Ok Thanks for that, sure beats getting a horn tattooed on my skull
Ian
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These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!
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Santgem I was referring to Rays personal experience he went thru in this matter,but great job you added to my knowledge
Ian
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These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!
I don't think so:
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Does not explain right hand, forehead, the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name, or 666.
None of us know yet what it means. When it's time we will find out.
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Hi Ian,
First there is the comment you were speaking of. Then I have put several places where Ray spoke of what this 'buying and selling' was.
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------
Will people be literally tattooed with marks (bar codes, swastikas, Social Security numbers, implanted with computer chips or one of a hundred unscriptural marks being suggested by fundamentalist prophets) in their hands and on their foreheads so that men cannot buy or sell ice cream or automobiles without these marks? Self-appointed prophets of doom haven’t a clue as to what this mark of the beast really is or the number of his name. I have already been bared from buying and selling recently because I refuse to brandish this "mark of the beast"!
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------
Jesus said that they "made the House of Prayer a DEN OF THIEVES"!
Say, did you notice that they were buying and selling "…in the Temple?" Do you think that just maybe this has anything to do with the fact that,
"…NO MAN might BUY OR SELL, save he that had the MARK OR THE NAME OF THE BEAST, or the NUMBER OF HIS NAME" (Rev. 13:17)?
We will cover the Mark of the Beast in a later installment.
But this is all ancient history, isn’t it? The modern Church of God has not been turned into a "den of thieves" has it? Were the High priests and Scribes, going against the law of either their own religious beliefs or of Rome? No. No, they weren’t. So they were not "thieves" according to the Church or the Roman government. But were they thieves, nonetheless? Yes, they were, Jesus Christ SAID THEY WERE THIEVES, a whole "DEN OF THIEVES"!
At least the modern Church of God is not a "den of thieves," is it? I’m sure not all; you can be the judge:
One of the major factors in the Reformation was the disdain over the practice of the Church selling INDULGENCES. The American Heritage College Dictionary, "indulgence n. 6. Roman Catholic Church The remission of temporal punishment still due for a sin that has been sacramentally absolved."
Make no mistake about it:
"For the love of money is the [Gk. ‘a’] root of all evil" (I Tim. 6:10).
Before the Reformation, it was thought that one could practically "buy" one’s salvation.
Jesus "CAST OUT them that sold and bought in the temple." Is there, "buying and selling" going on in the Church today? Excuse me…does a cat have a tail?
http://www.bible-truths.com/fools.htm ---------------------------
Jesus said they were CRIMINALS! But woe unto me if I should suggest that this same buying and selling in the Churches today is criminal! It IS criminal, I assure you, it is CRIMINAL. And they do FAR WORSE in today’s churches! They not only sell trinkets and religious junk in the Church, they MAKE MERCHANDISE OF THE VERY WORD OF GOD ITSELF. THEY SELL THE WORD OF GOD FOR PROFITS! Here is what Christ said concerning their activities of buying and selling in the Temple:
"And He taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the House of Prayer? But you have made it a DEN OF THIEVES" (Mark 11:17)!
---------------------------
These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.
Yes Ray was kicked out of the church and I think that is what he meant in that comment.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Yes, I agree, We won't buy into what their trying to sell us, their teachings, either the belief in them or the monetary support of them and those that defect present a danger in that they might tell others and explain to others about the things they've discovered to be false and the things they've discovered to be true which might cause others to defect from one of their Denominational Systems, they don't like or want that. We are a threat & a disease from their perspective.
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There are a couple scriptures I like pertaining to this subject.
Proverbs 23:23-Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.
Matthew 13:44-Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Joel
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These words 'buy' and 'sell' are symbols; selling is when someone offers, hawks or dispenses something to others. As buying are those receiving or obtaining something from the one selling.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their traditions, dogmas, and heretical teachings of their religious system - Christendom - Babylon, then you do not have their mark/stamp of approval. You will be cast out, ostracized and accused of being heretics and they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership.
When we no longer buy into and agree with their teachings of their religious system, they certainly will not allow anyone to sell the TRUTH to their membership............That's the answer!
I don't think so:
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Does not explain right hand, forehead, the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name, or 666.
None of us know yet what it means. When it's time we will find out.
I would like to clarify the excerpt from Kat which i posted.
My understanding is...
When we no longer buy into and agree (Us the believers, especially understanding Rays writings)
with their teachings of their religious system (them, Pagan Doctrines),
they certainly will not allow (Them, Pagan doctrines)
anyone to sell the TRUTH (Who? us the believers, especially Ray)
to their membership (Them, Pagan doctrine)
What does that mean?
Ray did not agree or believed their religious system or doctrines, that is why he can not sell his doctrines, meaning doctrines of Ray is heresy to them.
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I don't think this is what the bible is talking about. This is end-time prophesy. Still speculation.
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Perhaps we should as far as possible, apply Ray's own study "12 principles to understanding the Word"
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Perhaps we should as far as possible, apply Ray's own study "12 principles to understanding the Word"
what are those 12 principles John?
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Hi Rito 1980,
For a good start please see the following web address.
Regards, Indiana Bob
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
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I think the mark is the scar IN their mind and when they salute, say the pledge of allegence, the trinity gesture catholics do, heil hitler etc etc os always done with the right hand, thus the scar IN their right hand, what is IN the eye is IN the heart, so why wouldn't even the same go here? If the right hand offends the pluck it from your heart. Jus sayin
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I would like to clarify the excerpt from Kat which i posted.
My understanding is...
When we no longer buy into and agree (Us the believers, especially understanding Rays writings)
with their teachings of their religious system (them, Pagan Doctrines),
they certainly will not allow (Them, Pagan doctrines)
anyone to sell the TRUTH (Who? us the believers, especially Ray)
to their membership (Them, Pagan doctrine)
What does that mean?
Ray did not agree or believed their religious system or doctrines, that is why he can not sell his doctrines, meaning doctrines of Ray is heresy to them.
I think it's more than "us vs church". It's really us vs whole world system and government. Over my life, I've seen a loss of power in the church and an increase in power in government. But the one thing that has remained constant with either in that they both desire control (the beast?). Meanwhile we have less and less liberty and freedom..
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I love it when people write in with something on their minds.... and then to see a simple answer come through... SEE... God is still leading and teaching. Have a super weekend, everybody!!
ps... just wanted to tell you all... Dennis & I come here DAILY.. just to find encouragement. It's awesome!!
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The beast is me, Hudson. I'M the one that desires control. Whether I'm 'with' or 'against' any system, to be entangled in it IS my desire to control. Jesus is Lord.
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Hudson and Dave I think your both right.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
MANY WATERS
"Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth"
sits upon "many waters" we are told in Rev. 17:1. Anciently God also referred to the nation of Babylon as, "O thou that dwells upon MANY WATERS…" (Jer. 51:13). And these many waters are explained in Rev. 17:15 as:
"The WATERS which you saw, where the whore sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
Since all of Revelation is symbolic and metaphorical language, the "sea" represents the vast sea of humanity, not the watery oceans of our planet. It is fitting that if ancient Babylon dwelled upon "many waters" that the end-time Mystery Babylon would also sit upon "waters" which are clearly defined as "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."
And just where are we told that the beast that carries the great whore comes from?
"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a [wild] beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA [the vast sea of humanity]" (Rev. 13:1).
The whore is a great church, and it sits on a wild beast (a great political system), and John, "…saw a wild beast rise up OUT OF THE SEA (Rev. 13:1). This beast does not rise up out of one particular sea, that is one particular nation or people or multitude or tongue, but out of ALL OF THEM.
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Reason I responded to this was cause I used to wonder who the other beast was.
Thanks guys great replies.
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I wasn't referring to the beast in us, Dave. But rather a 'beast' in a collective sense where man desires control over other men. Are you saying a desire to be free (or against) such systems is part of the beast in us?
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Not exactly. But I don't think getting entangled--even in opposition--with the world is being free from either this 'collective' beast or the one in/as us who wants to control things or people.
Ray said disciples shouldn't be "marching on Washington". That was hard for me to hear, because I tend to admire (at least some) people who "march on Washington" and would have been there myself if I could have been. But stepping back, "marching on Washington" means choosing sides in a debate where deep down both (even ALL) sides are 'wrong'. There is a more excellent way.
All my life up even to today I've heard people quoting Eph 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." and interpreting it to mean "we wrestle against flesh and blood in high places, flesh and blood principalities, flesh and blood powers, flesh and blood rulers of the darkness of this world".
That scripture could just as well have ended with "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood." because that NOT covers everything that follows. None of it is flesh and blood. "Places" isn't even in Scripture. The thought ends with 'high', 'celestial', 'heavenly'. Where is the 'heaven' that Ray talks about?
2Co 10:3-6 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) (what strongholds?) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
That's the "beast" I'm concerned with.
That's probably more of a reply than you or anybody else wanted, but there it is.
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No! No! Dave, actually that is exactly what I needed.
This training period is not about training others.
Not about correcting disbelief in others.
Rather it is about our individual training through the operation of God's spirit in us.
It is about sharing with those of like mind, those God has already called who are seeking us and we them.
Thanks for caring and sharing.
Indiana Bob
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No! No! Dave, actually that is exactly what I needed.
This training period is not about training others.
Not about correcting disbelief in others.
Rather it is about our individual training through the operation of God's spirit in us.
It is about sharing with those of like mind, those God has already called who are seeking us and we them.
Thanks for caring and sharing.
Indiana Bob
:)
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You guys Rock! I've been blessed. Thank you
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I think the number of his name is meant to say, the great number(multitudes) and 666 is a misrepresentation of that great number of people, a number of people showed up for the event, and its number was 666 if you will.
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Very good comments from Kat and Dennis. I am sure there is much more to learn about buying and selling and the mark of the beast. This just motivates me more to dig deeper into Scripture and follow Ray's train of thought. Good subject. Much to think about.
Joe from Ottawa
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I am glad to be in the few with this line of thought and post.
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6 6 6 = work work work or me me me and I I I
get it?
well maybe not.
For It is the a human number.....representing mans failed attempts with work after work after work and faith hope and love come from God in contrast.....or perfection from our Father. Man fails short time after time after time but the Father is 7 perfection and man falls 1 short as a beast. Our God is 1
Inspired by Ray's writings on the subject.....many years of no clue.....some foolishness by a preacher and Revelation's the book.
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A just man falls 7 times, from all the worlds 7churches doctrines, so falling away from 7 is the road to perfection, not the number 7 as perfection.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7638.0.html
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Ray said-->"Seven" in Scripture can mean complete or perfect, but it also has a similar meaning to the number 1000, which can mean "as many as there are or as long as is necessary." I say--->Sometimes it takes 1000 times to fall away from seven mistakes.