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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: David on March 08, 2008, 05:33:36 AM
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This thought occured to me yesterday after pondering a recent "conversaton" with a member of a local methodist Church.
If the garbage of eternal hell were real, then the chances are this would mean eternal misery and torment for everyone!
Surely every Christian in the world has a family member, loved one, close freind etc that is not a Christian. I know from my own experience that in the UK, most Christians have several family members that do not believe. The UK right now is becoming more and more secular, and the Government, media and education system is actively encouraging secularism in society.
This being so, the Hope that the mainstream Church is offering is a false hope. How can anyone rejoice in heaven for all eternity knowing they have a brother or sister, mother or faher, husband or wife, son or daughter burning and being tormented in hell for all eternity?
I think there is more to what Paul said in 1Cor 15:32 If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
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David,
I agree with you. But some people don't! This is how they explain this:
"And when the smoke of their torment rises up for ever, it will rise up to God's glory. When we recognize this we will not want anyone of those who are in Hell in Heaven. But we will praise God and give Him honour for his righteous judgment." (translated from Norwegian) (excerpt from a Norwegian Christian website).
The title of the article was: "Will we miss anyone of those who are not in Heaven?" Believe it or not, that is what they believe will happen...
If it wouldn't be eternal misery for them, then it would be eternal double standards! They would feel NO mercy, seeing the "smoke of their torment" rise up for ever. What an evil scene...
God bless you,
Eirik
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I was taught that God would wipe their memory from our minds. We would not remember them at all.
They used this scripture to back up that teaching.
Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
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Yes Misery indeed for all as how could we possibly view God as a sovereign God whereby all things would not be possible for God.
The power of God would be no more than a human effort at exterminating evil from existance from those it inhabits. Instead, evil will perpetually exist along side the righteousness of God forever.
I am so full of joy that we have a larger hope and that our God will accomplish the work of destroying the works of the Devil and that none of his (Devil) works will perpetually survive eternity.
Praise God for His knowledge and understanding and wisdom to see Him as the King of Kings. The concurring Christ, triumphant.
God Bless, Dave
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I am so full of joy that we have a larger hope and that our God will accomplish the work of destroying the works of the Devil and that none of his (Devil) works will perpetually survive eternity.
Praise God for His knowledge and understanding and wisdom to see Him as the King of Kings. The concurring Christ, triumphant.
God Bless, Dave
Larger Hope
All I can say is a big AMEN to that!! ;D
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And when the smoke of their torment rises up for ever, it will rise up to God's glory. When we recognize this we will not want anyone of those who are in Hell in Heaven. But we will praise God and give Him honour for his righteous judgment."
Sickening is what it is. God in his glory will allow people who think like this in heaven???? Yet he will do nothing for those in hell.
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I remember 2 1/2 years ago, personally telling God that I would not want to exist (period) in some glorious afterlife while billions of others suffer in some hell. That night I found an article with the title "Exposing Those Who Contradict".
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Good Post David,
M.G. made a good point about God wiping out the memory of these things,(Isaiah.65:17), thats' what I was taught in my former Religious persuasion, in my case it was the Annihilation, preferable to conscious Eternal Misery or Torment, but still not a happy ending for most of Mankind. Theologians will argue that the Greek Work PAS translated ALL doesn't necessarily mean Everyone, but can be MOST or MANY, yet if you analyze it, even if the Greek World PAS meant MOST or MANY in these Scriptures(1Cor. 15:22-28; 1Tim.2:4; 1Tim.4:10 & others), they(the theologians) would still be faced with the problem of their belief that most of Mankind will receive some form of Eternal Misery, their MOST interpretation PAS would still be illogical with this in mind.
M.G., all of us, including me, would need to have our memory wiped out if God had in store for us if what most of Orthodox Christianity has planned for most of Mankind would end up coming true. Its' too terrible to imagine such a prospect, we can be Thankyou That Our God is Love and really is The Savior of The Whole World.
Your Brother in Christ, Samson.
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If we had our minds wiped out, what could possibly be the reason for our life now? Playthings for God? I don't think so. To believe in the doctrines taught by man, it is imperative that you check your mind at the door, because the hole they've dug for themselves is insane.
Craig
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Like I've said before: Hell-Mongering Babylonians
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Samson, Ray has an audio and transcript on the word all. I am not sure if Ray mentions this in that and I intend to listen and read the transcript again to see. But if I am not mistaken when the bible is talking about ALL (of a group of certain people) I believe it mentions the group by name in the passage.
I seemed to have noticed that verses where ALL is talking about mankind the "context" of the verses either mentions mankind specifically, or it is talking about an event that God intends for everyone no matter what. Such as repentance.
I do not know this is in every case, but Ray is correct in his teaching about it that the word ALL on its own cannot cause a truth of universal salvation.
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How can anyone rejoice in heaven for all eternity knowing they have a brother or sister, mother or faher, husband or wife, son or daughter burning and being tormented in hell for all eternity?
Well, just for the sake of argument, God's gonna "wipe all tears from their eyes."
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How can anyone rejoice in heaven for all eternity knowing they have a brother or sister, mother or faher, husband or wife, son or daughter burning and being tormented in hell for all eternity?
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If we have free will, then they choose to rejoice about eternal misery.
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Yes Phazel,
I listened to that Audio which discusses the word All(PAS) by Ray and he mentioned that the word ALL on its' own accord wasn't enough to cause belief in Universal Salvation by itself, as expressed in your last paragraph of your second to last Post. He mentioned that they use the word ALL inconsistently, exp- All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, in that Scripture they(Theologians) interpret PAS as everybody, but in Scriptures where it mentions saving everyone, they interpret PAS as MANY or MOST. Translators seem to pick and chose how they want something to be understood and rendered to suit their purpose and like Ray says, they use their CONTEXT justification to accomplish their goal. After finding out that LATIN corrupted some of the original greek words and their meanings, they couldn't fool me anymore.
Peace be to you, Samson.
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They believe they choose God. This is how they solve the question of God being just and loving all. They believe that God sits by helplessly hoping we will choose him. This is how they justify God sending most to hell for eternity. This is how they justify exalting themselves above others.
They believe they have the power to choose or reject God.
This makes them the "god" of their own salvation.
2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Eph. 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are HIS workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
They believe they have saved themselves by their own choice so now they exalt themselves above others who they believe reject God by choice. They despise others because they exalt themselves above all so they rejoice in the lie that others will be eternally tortured in their man made hell fire. If they aren't rejoicing they are suffering great emotional pain believing a loved one is being tortured.
Luke 18
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Matthew 23:
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
Philippians 2
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
This is the good news!
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God's gonna erase our memeries so that we won't remember that the scriptures call Him a God of Love who will save all mankind.
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If we had our minds wiped out, what could possibly be the reason for our life now? Playthings for God? I don't think so. To believe in the doctrines taught by man, it is imperative that you check your mind at the door, because the hole they've dug for themselves is insane.
Craig
That's a great point Craig. Our God is a God of purpose. We are here to learn, and we'll take those lessons with us, and one lesson is to love our enemies, and we'll delight to see the day that all mankind will be reconciled to God.
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You know the thought has occurred to Me that if the apostle Paul believed in an everlast torture chamber for the vast majority humanity, would He really have been able to say this?
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Surely He couldn't say that if most of humanity was going there?
Why, just because He wouldn't He'd be a heartless, selfish selfish excuse for a humanbeing would He not?
Wouldn't that in itself be an attitude worthy of death and Hell?
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If God wipes out our memories, then what is the purpose of 1 Timothy 2:4who will have all men to be saved, and come unto the knowlege of the truth. ??????? What use is the knowlege of the truth we are all learning day by day in our lives if God wipes it from our memory?
And, another point that to me is a window into the depraved mind of the carnal Christian. Even if God will wipe out any memory of this life etc, well that hasn't happened yet. Do these people seriously sit in their Churches knowing their son or daughter might burn in Hell forever thinking "its OK, cuz I won't remember any of it anyway". My mind cannot even ponder such a thing for very long. its just too sick.
In Britain, according to the official figures, for every Christian that marries and has children, there's a 90% chance their children will remain unconverted atheists for life. There are aproximately 6,000,000 Christians in the UK, out of a population of 60 million. That means according to their doctrine, 90% of British kids wind up in hell. Nice thought :'(
Everything they come up with, lie after lie.
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I've always been told that God won't erase ALL of our memories - just the memories of those who lived and ended up in hell. It will be to us as if they never existed.
If you think about it, that's totally ridiculous. Men will remember being fathers without any assistance from women. Children will remember being raised without adults. All the "saved" will live forever with large portions of their memories erased. Ask any amnesiac how comfortable THAT is!
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I've always been told that God won't erase ALL of our memories - just the memories of those who lived and ended up in hell. It will be to us as if they never existed.
If you think about it, that's totally ridiculous. Men will remember being fathers without any assistance from women. Children will remember being raised without adults. All the "saved" will live forever with large portions of their memories erased. Ask any amnesiac how comfortable THAT is!
Good point Sandy...........and another thing about this erasing the memory garbage, if Christ and his saints are to judge all those that end up in Hell, how are the saints to know what we are judging, or how??
By suggesting such a thing that God will wipe out our memories of our loved ones that are in hell, they actually add a new dimension of depravity to the God they believe in. The concept suggests that God is going to with his people all the time keeping it a secret that he's tormenting and torturing billions of people every second for all eternity. It would be like a man murdering a womans husband, never being caught, then seducing her and marrying her, all the time knowing what he did. I wonder if any of them realise just how sick their minds are.
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This thought occured to me yesterday after pondering a recent "conversaton" with a member of a local methodist Church.
If the garbage of eternal hell were real, then the chances are this would mean eternal misery and torment for everyone!
Surely every Christian in the world has a family member, loved one, close freind etc that is not a Christian. I know from my own experience that in the UK, most Christians have several family members that do not believe. The UK right now is becoming more and more secular, and the Government, media and education system is actively encouraging secularism in society.
This being so, the Hope that the mainstream Church is offering is a false hope. How can anyone rejoice in heaven for all eternity knowing they have a brother or sister, mother or faher, husband or wife, son or daughter burning and being tormented in hell for all eternity?
I think there is more to what Paul said in 1Cor 15:32 If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
I have to give you a partial amen. I'm not certain how the verse you referenced is in reference to the rest of what you said. Could you clarify?
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This thought occurred to me yesterday after pondering a recent "conversation" with a member of a local Methodist Church.
If the garbage of eternal hell were real, then the chances are this would mean eternal misery and torment for everyone!
Surely every Christian in the world has a family member, loved one, close Friend etc that is not a Christian. I know from my own experience that in the UK, most Christians have several family members that do not believe. The UK right now is becoming more and more secular, and the Government, media and education system is actively encouraging secularism in society.
This being so, the Hope that the mainstream Church is offering is a false hope. How can anyone rejoice in heaven for all eternity knowing they have a brother or sister, mother or father, husband or wife, son or daughter burning and being tormented in hell for all eternity?
I think there is more to what Paul said in 1Cor 15:32 If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
I have to give you a partial amen. I'm not certain how the verse you referenced is in reference to the rest of what you said. Could you clarify?
Put simply, if the dead do not rise either in the 1st resurrection to rule with Christ, or in the 2nd resurrection to judgement and then salvation, but are transcended instantly to either heaven or hell, then there is no hope for anyone. Because of all those transcended to heaven, they will know many that are burning in hell, most probably someone they loved deeply in their physical life on earth.
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Hi David,
I agree (as the church teaches they're all going straight up to heaven at death), how could they be truely happy there knowing a loved one, not only didn't make it to heaven, but is in torment forever ???
That Scripture is hard to grasp unless you understand why Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 15:32 IF the dead do NOT rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
If you go back a few verses you can see what he is talking about, there were those who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
I hope this will give some a better understanding of that verse :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi David,
I agree (as the church teaches they're all going straight up to heaven at death), how could they be truely happy there knowing a loved one, not only didn't make it to heaven, but is in torment forever ???
That Scripture is hard to grasp unless you understand why Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 15:32 IF the dead do NOT rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
If you go back a few verses you can see what he is talking about, there were those who did not believe in the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
v. 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
v. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
v. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise.
v. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
I hope this will give some a better understanding of that verse :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks Kat, great scriptures.
I think these scriptures strike at the very heart of the false doctrine of instant transcendence at the point of death that is in the Church.
A scripture that for me is extremely profound that witnesses to these scriptures is Romans 8:38-39. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The Church teaches that if you die without knowing Christ, too late and tough luck, you burn forever. And yet Paul teaches the total opposite here and the first thing he lists that he believes cannot separate us from the love of God is death. The Church rationalises it by saying it only means those that believe..........but then they just don't realise that each time they say a scripture is just for them, or not for them, or has a context pertaining to a time or group of people, they throw the Bible in the trash. If any one part of it is not for all today, then none of it is.