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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Craig on July 28, 2006, 09:50:27 AM
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html
I just posted an email that I believe Ray gives a great answer for the free will question.
Craig
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Thanks Craig,
Free will, is alwas a conteneous issue and you are right, Ray covers it very well in his response.
Have a great day with God.
Darren
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You, know, that is undoubtably a really, really strong argument for the lack of free will. I don't see how one can argue with that.
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Thanks Craig,
That is a great explanation. Isn't it odd how when you believe in free will, you are certain you are in charge of your own destiny (which the world tells us is the way to happiness...be your own person, chart your own future and all that stuff) and are miserable and then, when you give up that concept and learn the truth from God, you know that you are nothing without Him, that you can do nothing on your own and He is in charge of your destiny....and that brings comfort and joy and peace? At least it's been that way for me. It just struck me the difference between the two. Wow, it's absolutely amazing how exactly opposite those things are.
mongoose
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I have just read it and printed it out. How clear can you get!?
Brian
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I've read the article and I'll have to admit that I still struggle with a lot of this teaching (but not all of it). So what I'm going to say here isn't to argue...it's to ask for anwers which satisfy my questioning heart.
All quotes from Ray:
"Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 2:5).
In reading this scripture I can't help but focus on the first word "LET" which precedes getting that 'mind of Christ'. 'To let' ,by inherency, means one has the capacity 'Not to let'...doesn't it?
Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God. They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).
But in reading this in context, we have to consider the very next verse.
1CO 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth/anakrino all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
0350 anakrino: to scrutinize, i.e. (by impl.) investigate, interrogate, determine
So if we're to judge/determine all things...is that only possible 'after we did what we couldn't help but do'? If we have that freedom to judge after...don't we have it before?
What do I do with the following verse:
1CO 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
I'm not trying to split hairs here...but what's the difference between having 'the mind of God' and 'the mind of Christ'? Aren't they both 'free wills'? Doesn't scripture say Jesus had God's mind? Let's go back to Ray's first verse quoted and read it in context.
PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
So if Jesus' mind was equal to God's mind then am I to believe that God doesn't have free will either? Surely we don't believe that do we? And if we are 'to let' that same mind be in us...then how can it not be a free mind/will and yet still be the same as God's mind/will?
....And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T......The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God: "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).
Scripture, to me, seems to say that not only can a "Christian" 'will to obey out of his new nature'...but even an 'unbeliever' can will to do so out of his unregenerated nature.
ROM 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Gentiles do 'by nature'??? What nature?, surely not the old "sin nature"!!! That nature which hasn't even been regenerated, renewed, converted and hates God...Help me here. How can this verse mean what it says without them having freedom of will?
I know I asked a lot of questions here. But for me they are good questions worthy of good answers. Answers which I need to fully accept the 'whole teaching'. Please bear with me on this.
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Perhaps you should reread the Free Will portion(s) of the Lake of Fire papers;
"Free Will" DEFINED
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
"free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice. 2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."
My Meriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary/Eleventh Edition has an even more precise definition:
"free will n. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention."
It is useless to have a study on this term "free will" unless we stick to a strict, concise and precise definition of the term. As can be seen from our dictionaries, "free will" does not have for a concise or precise definition the ability to "make choices." Yet this is the way it is often defined.
Notice that our dictionaries are specific in stating that it is "FREE choice" that is the definition of "free will," rather than just "choice" alone. To be an expression of "free will," choices must also be free. Free from what? We just read it:
Free from "PRIOR CAUSES."
Free from "CONSTRAINT."
Free from "EXTERNAL CIRCUMSTANCES."
Free from "FATE."
Free from "DIVINE WILL."
Free from "DIVINE INTERVENTION."
Those who would argue for free will, however, refuse being held to these precise and concise definitions. They want the mere ability to "make a choice" to be considered an act of "free will." Well it is nothing of the kind. Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free will." This is easily demonstrated. Computers make "choices." They can make trillions of choices per second. It would take a trillion people to make that many choices in a second. All that these marvelous machines do is make choices.
Now then, will anyone contend that computers have unprogrammed and uncaused, free wills? So now we have proof that making choices is not the same as "free will."
We are not speaking of "Hal" in the Hollywood science fiction fantasy: "2001—A Space Odyssey." Computers do not have "free wills," yet THEY CAN MAKE CHOICES, but those choices are anything but free. Their choices are all a matter of PRE-programming. They cannot think and act independently of "causes." Neither can man think or do anything outside of the realm of "causes." In order for an effect to be present, there must first be a cause, and once something is caused, the effect must follow, and neither could have been prevented.
There is not one example that can be presented by scientific a method, that can demonstrate that man’s will is free from causality. Neither is there an example in all Scripture that can be shown to be the exercise of a will that is free from causality. And that certainly includes all that our Lord Himself ever thought, said, or did.
SUBJECTED TO VANITY NOT WILLINGLY
Here is another profound reason why man’s will is not and never was free. We saw that Eve was already in a state of spiritual weakness and actually committed all of the three categories of sin before she actually ate of the forbidden fruit. And the reason she was in this condition and easy pickins for the serpent, is taught us in the Romans 8:20.
"For the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] was made [put under, subordinate to, to obey] subject to vanity [Gk: ‘futility’], not willingly, but by reason of Him Who has subjected the same in hope."
WOW! What have we here? Free will? I think not. Pay close attention to the words that God inspired:
"WAS MADE"—This is an ACT or CAUSE of God: Not of man’s will.
"SUBJECT TO VANITY"—CAUSED by God: Not man’s choice.
"NOT WILLINGLY"—According to God’s will: Not man’s will.
"BY REASON OF HIM"—By reason of GOD: Not by reason of man.
"WHO HAS SUBJECTED"—Subjected by GOD: Not chosen by man.
So where is the "free" will in all this? There is no free will in all this!
Notice verse 21:
"Because the creature [Gk: ‘creation’] itself also shall be delivered from THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God."
Man was never "immortal," neither was he "incorruptible." Not before Adam and Eve sinned, nor after. This is why Paul tells us that,
"For this CORRUPTIBLE must put on incorruption, and this MORTAL must put on immortality" (I Cor. 15:53).
This is not speaking of something that happened later in the history of the human race. No, this goes back to the very CREATION of all things. It is GOD Who does the CREATING and it is GOD Who does the SUBJECTING, and man’s will has absolutely NOTHING to do WITH IT, or ABOUT IT!
If man has a will that is free from being something other than what God Himself has SUBJECTED it to, why doesn’t man just "free will" himself to NOT be subjected to futility and corruption? I’ll tell you why: Because the will of man is NOT FREE to do others things than what it is caused to do, and has absolutely NO POWER OR AUTHORITY to do otherwise, independent of God’s will and God’s choices for him. How about a Chapter and Verse on that statement? Okay:
"Then said Pilate unto Him, Speak you not unto me? Know you not that I HAVE POWER to crucify you, and have POWER TO RELEASE YOU? Jesus answered, You could have NO POWER AT ALL against Me, except it were GIVEN YOU from above…" (John 19:10-11).
Lightseeker, attempting to get the members to condense all of this into a "Reader's Digest" format in the order of your questions is not a reasonable request, reread the material and e-mail Ray any disputes you may have with his views with 2 scriptural witnesses.
Thanks,
Joe
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In reading this scripture I can't help but focus on the first word "LET" which precedes getting that 'mind of Christ'. 'To let' ,by inherency, means one has the capacity 'Not to let'...doesn't it?
Hi Lightseeker,
I understand your concering the scripture. I looked up Phil. 2:5 "Let" in e-sword with Greek is phroneo. This does not mean 'let'. I believe the translation were not correct to write "let" because the Greek manuscript in Phili. 2:5 never find "let". The word Phroneo mean 'mind' or 'think', so the translation must have added "let". But I found correct translation from American Standard Version:
Have this mind [phroneo] in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
I do not see similar as 'free will'. Hope this help you? :-\
Brett
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I reckon I've probably only spent a couple hundred hours thinking about this issue, as opposed to thousands, so Ray is probably much more enlightened. But I've been thinking recently about how God answers prayers.
Most Christians will happily proclaim all the answered prayers that God has blessed them with. But do they stop and think about how God answers prayers?
If God answers your prayer by orchestrating some event that invovles another person, did that person have free will to do or not do what he or she did to answer your prayer? If we say "God answered my prayer by this person coming into my life and helping me," then, how could that person have had free will not to help us? How could that person have had any other choice but to help us if God had determined to use that person to answer our prayer?
Can we say "that person chose to help me on his own free will" and in the same breath say "God answered my prayer by that person coming into my life and helping me?"
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thanks.
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Mat 26:31 Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'
Mat 26:33 "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."
Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.
Mat 26:69 Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."
Mat 26:70 He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."
Mat 26:71 Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."
Mat 26:72 Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74 Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,
Mat 26:75 and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.
I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times. His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do.
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Mat 26:31 Then said Jesus, "This night all of you will stumble and fail in your fidelity to me; for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK WILL BE SCATTERED IN ALL DIRECTIONS.'
Mat 26:33 "All may stumble and fail," said Peter, "but I never will."
Mat 26:35 "Even if I must die with you," declared Peter, "I will never disown you." In like manner protested all the disciples.
Mat 26:69 Peter meanwhile was sitting outside in the court of the palace, when one of the maidservants came over to him and said, "You too were with Jesus the Galilaean."
Mat 26:70 He denied it before them all, saying, "I do not know what you mean."
Mat 26:71 Soon afterwards he went out and stood in the gateway, when another girl saw him, and said, addressing the people there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."
Mat 26:72 Again he denied it with an oath. "I do not know the man," he said. Mat 26:74 Then with curses and oaths he declared, "I do not know the man." Immediately a cock crowed,
Mat 26:75 and Peter recollected the words of Jesus, how He had said, "Before the cock crows you will three times disown me." And he went out and wept aloud, bitterly.
I see no way Peter could not have denied Christ three times. His will was not free, it was determined beforehand what he would do.
That's true. Once God declares a prophecy, how could there be any possible way that anyone could choose to do something that opposes that prophecy?
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Joe,
Thank you for your lengthly response...you've have given some really good things to consider. I have read the 'Free will portions of the LOF' series, but you are correct that it was one time. The problem is, I ask myself questions concerning the teaching from beginning to end. And I have also been exposed to a similar teaching by Preston Eby titled "What do you mean man is a free moral agent". It's quite similar and was easier to accept more of it (though not all) because of his defining of 'free, moral, agent'. I don't believe that one has to completely understand a teaching the first time to get a feeling that bears witness to one's spirit as to its truth. And I do see the truth in the dictionary definiton as you pointed out.Your definition/post also eliminated 'choices' also. But I thought I remembered Ray saying he does believe in us "making choices". Am I remembering that wrong?
Lightseeker, attempting to get the members to condense all of this into a "Reader's Digest" format in the order of your questions is not a reasonable request, reread the material and e-mail Ray any disputes you may have with his views with 2 scriptural witnesses.
I admit it was a 'condensed attempt' to question the condensed quoted post which this thread was based upon. I simply asked a number of questions based on that condensed post. And I really don't want to respond to your post with another number of questions which your post raises to me. I would have preferred simple, or even complex answers, to even one of my questions. Several of which were based upon "two verses" in context which is why I asked them.
I'll end this now in the hope that you can all bear with me as I seek not, 'to win some debate'...but only 'to find a pearl of truth'.
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More from Ray on this;
> Hi, I will not add to all of the words that you must read every day saying
> millions of words of gratitude. So to sum it all up. THANK YOU SO VERY
> MUCH!!!! THANK YOU GOD!
>
> Now here is my question: Free Will i have read much of your work and
> understand that we have NO FREE will. But how far does it extend. Is God in
> control of every little move we make (i like to believe so) And if He is
> then why would he punish the wicked? Obviously not for all eternity! But
> why?? Is it not His Will that they be wicked?? Potter of honour and
> dishonour?, creator of evil, hardened pharohs heart? So why would they be
> punished? And is not the evil doctrine of hell (depths of Satan) also Gods
> will, strong delusion, NONE OTHER BURDEN etc.. IS NOT EVERYTHINGS GODS
> WILL??
> so heres one of many scriptures that confuse me on this free will subject:
>
> "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
> of heaven: but he that does the will of My Father which is in heaven. MANY
> will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name?
> And in Thy name have cast out devils [demons]? And in Thy name done MANY
> WONDERFUL WORKS? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
> from Me, ye [ye means ‘ALL of you’] that work INIQUITY [lawlessness]" (Matt.
> 7:21-23).
>
> Does not all we do the will of God? Isn't it impossible not to? Is not
> EVERYTHING IN THIS ENTIRE WORLD THAT TAKES PLACE THE WILL OF GOD!!!?? So how
> can God not alow people to enter into His Kingdom when He is the one who
> Wills them to do Good and Evil,Honour and Dishonour, INIQUITY AND SIN!!??
> Doesnt He control all? or does he onl y control some things? i am confused
> why God would not alow certain people into his kingdom if it is His Will
> that they work Iniquity!
>
> Hope you can understand my question.
> Thank you
> Humbly In Christ
> Alex
Dear Alex:
We must distinguish between God's "will" as a noun meaing His ultimate purpose and destination of things, and God's "plan" to achieve His "will." It is God's will that mankind live righteously, but it is His purpose, plan, and intention that they first live UNrighteously. The first is a necessary precursor to achieve the second. God commands men to do the impossible. This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness. And understand that God does not force us to sin. We sin voluntarily from our hearts, and in so doing it is only right and good that we should be punished for sinning. Our hearts and minds must be converted from what they are into the Image of God's Son.
God be with you,
Ray
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Here's how I see it.
If I loaded up 10 people from 10 different walks of life onto a bus and took them to a bar I would get 10 different reactions. Some would be appalled, some would be curious, some would go in but not drink, some would go in and get drunk -- the point is that if we were robots as some suggest then we would all react the same. But we are all different. If we were never tested and tried we would all never know sin, but we would also never know righteousness. That would be a robot. God gives us a wonderful opportunity to know righteousness. The only way to get there is through sin. We do have a will, but it is tried and tested constantly by our creator. WHY? Because it is the only way he can teach us about righteousness. We truly learn through our mistakes. Some of us will learn righteousness in this lifetime. Those will be in the first resurrection. The majority however will not learn righteousness in this lifetime, their sins will lead them to their deaths and ultimate judgment in the second resurrection. It is not the sins that will be judged it is our reactions to the trials and temptations. Some would argue that if God never tempted us than we would never sin. They miss the point. Our purpose here is to learn true sacrifice. How can we learn not to sin if we are never tempted to sin. So NO our wills are not free from manipulation. We are NOT free because God is always tempting and trying our hearts. It has been an amazing journey from the time I first ran across Ray's site to now! I find myself praying that my will be aligned with His. When I pray that-- it happens! That's the peace that passes all understanding. To have something horrible happen to you and know that it was part of God's plan and for a bigger purpose is sooo powerful. Not that it has been or is an easy road to travel. I feel (a little) like Jesus in the garden crying first that it all be taken away and then also that God's will be done. Knowing that God's Will will hurt and yet wanting it anyway because it will be the best possible way. Unbelievable stuff! Of course I tremble every morning. God is so powerful and I feel it every day how in control He really is and how puny it makes me feel. Yet at the same time I feel so powerful not having to "control" everything, you know? Just riding it out and letting God's breath blow me where He wants me to go. Then a storm comes in and I say "hey, God, I know that's you; I hope this one isn't too bad; help me make it through and give me your peace" And when I pray that I always get that peace and a knowledge that either "everything is going to be okay", or "hang on this is going to be tough!" Either way I get closer to God every time and that is all worth it to me! (Sorry to ramble, just having a moment) ;)
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God commands men to do the impossible. This too is a necessary precursor for man's learning. We must be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will, before we will ever repent of our weakness and wickedness.
Amen!
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I enjoyed your "ramble" tb ..........Thanks
John
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hey bobby,
i agree, we puny humans living in real time in the here and now think we have free will.
when i realized the truth of how big God is and that he holds all thngs together, ie, unseen particals.
the vastness of god is uncomprehendable.
one thing for sure, knowing this has made it easeir to understand his will and to obey him.
ill paste this again as a reminder:
We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at any given moment knew all of the forces that animate nature and the mutual positions of the beings that compose it, if this intellect were vast enough to submit the data to analysis, could condense into a single formula the movement of the greatest bodies of the universe and that of the lightest atom; for such an intellect nothing could be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes." – Marquis Pierre Simon de Laplace
God bless
chuckt
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II PETER 2:4 FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE ANGELS WHO SINNED, BUT CAST THEM INTO HELL AND DELIVERED THEM INTO CHAINS OF DARKNESS, TO BE RESERVED FOR JUDGEMENT. ABOUT THIS FREE WILL QUESTION. IF GOD DID NOT SPARE HIS ANGELS. THIS ANGELS MUCH HAVE BEEN CREATED WITH THERE OWN FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO SIN . WHY WOULD A ANGEL SIN THAT IS SPIRIT? I DIDNT THINK ANGELS WHERE CREATED TO THINK . JUST AS SATAN WAS A SPIRIT. TO ME IT SOUNDED LIGHT ANGELS WAS ABLE TO MAKE THERE OWN CHOICES APART FROM GOD. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE? ~KAREN~
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TB, that was a very thoughtful ramble! Thanks for taking the time.
Love hearing others express these raw truths--things that christianity
can't sell. The truth of these things would be quite unappealing
to the majority-- the churches wouldn't be so full.
I'll enjoy re-reading this thread to fill in for the conversation that
I can't find with any of my local friends. Even when it hurts, doesn't
the Truth just thrill your soul? Has to be God's work in us, huh?-- cuz
we would not on our own turn TO Him and see these things.
Good thread ya all!
Jayle
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II PETER 2:4 FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE ANGELS WHO SINNED, BUT CAST THEM INTO HELL AND DELIVERED THEM INTO CHAINS OF DARKNESS, TO BE RESERVED FOR JUDGEMENT. ABOUT THIS FREE WILL QUESTION. IF GOD DID NOT SPARE HIS ANGELS. THIS ANGELS MUCH HAVE BEEN CREATED WITH THERE OWN FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO SIN . WHY WOULD A ANGEL SIN THAT IS SPIRIT? I DIDNT THINK ANGELS WHERE CREATED TO THINK . JUST AS SATAN WAS A SPIRIT. TO ME IT SOUNDED LIGHT ANGELS WAS ABLE TO MAKE THERE OWN CHOICES APART FROM GOD. WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE? ~KAREN~
Hi Karen, I don't know that they had their own choices apart from God. But it sure seems they were definitely subject to err:
Job 4:18 "Behold, He put no trust in his servants; nor in His angels, in whom he put light."
Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgement of the great day."
1 Cor 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?"
Blessings,
Marie
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Good point Bobby, I found some interesting quotes on "Free will" from the philosophy/science view of the matter;
Baruch Spinoza compared man's belief in free will to a stone thinking it chose the path it traveled through the air and the spot it landed. In Ethics he wrote, "The decisions of the mind are nothing save desires, which vary according to various dispositions." "There is in the mind no absolute or free will, but the mind is determined in willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this by another and so on to infinity." "Men think themselves free because they are conscious of their volitions and desires, but are ignorant of the causes by which they are led to wish and desire." [4] [5]
Arthur Schopenhauer, concurring with Spinoza, wrote, "Everyone believes himself à priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life... . But à posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns... ."[6]
You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing.
— Schopenhauer, On the Freedom of the Will, Ch. II
I can do what I will: I can, if I will, give everything I have to the poor and thus become poor myself — if I will! But I cannot will this, because the opposing motives have much too much power over me for me to be able to. On the other hand, if I had a different character, even to the extent that I were a saint, then I would be able to will it. But then I could not keep from willing it, and hence I would have to do so... [A]s little as a ball on a billiard table can move before receiving an impact, so little can a man get up from his chair before being drawn or driven by a motive. But then his getting up is as necessary and inevitable as the rolling of a ball after the impact. And to expect that anyone will do something to which absolutely no interest impels him is the same as to expect that a piece of wood shall move toward me without being pulled by a string.
— Ibid., Ch. III
Schopenhauer's saying, that a human can very well do what he wants, but can not will what he wants, accompanies me in all of life's circumstances and reconciles me with the actions of humans, even when they are truly distressing.
— Albert Einstein, Address to the German League for Human Rights, November 1928. Credo
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Joe, that was an interesting post.
I wonder if the proponents of free-will believe they willed themselves to exist. The idol of freewill is hard for many to let go.
I liked the quote from, Ibid, chap. III. Straight to the point and simple to understand.
God bless,
Gary
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The beast is within us all.
The lifeblood of the beast is the idea of free will.
That is why it is so hard for us to accept and let go of, I know I still struggle with it.
The beast does not want to die.
Craig
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Another helpful topic!
I was at a camp meeting last night (we still have these in West Texas), and, amazingly, the preacher quoted "The Sermon on the Mount" verbatum! Anyway, regarding the section Matthew 7:21 about only those doing the will of the Father will be in heaven:
Isn't it true that ultimately ALL (including those in Lake of Fire) will do God's will? So doesn't that mean ALL will eventually be in heaven?
snorky
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I really feel that God showed me that our future is set in cement just like our past. The only difference for us is that we can't look ahead and see our future like we can look back and see our past. If God is not confined to our time line he can look at all of it at the same time. To him it is finished.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
The thing that hath been [God's view], it is that which shall be [our view]; and that which is done[God's view] is that which shall be done [our view]: and there is no new thing under the sun.
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Another helpful topic!
I was at a camp meeting last night (we still have these in West Texas), and, amazingly, the preacher quoted "The Sermon on the Mount" verbatum! Anyway, regarding the section Matthew 7:21 about only those doing the will of the Father will be in heaven:
Isn't it true that ultimately ALL (including those in Lake of Fire) will do God's will? So doesn't that mean ALL will eventually be in heaven?
snorky
Not trying to get off the topic, but where in West TX? I was born in Big Spring, lived in Coahoma.
No one can escape Gods will.
When the "free will" issue comes up in a conversation, it seems like the "free willers" throw negative stuff/evil at you trying to dispute your views. At that point I just have to take a deep breath and back away.
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(Exo 3:14) And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.
(Exo 16:4) And Jehovah said to Moses, Behold, I AM! Bread will rain from the heavens for you. And the people shall go out and gather the matter of a day in its day, so that I may test them, whether they will walk in My Law or not.
(Mat 26:26) And as they ate, taking the bread and blessing it, Jesus broke and gave to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is My body.
(Joh 6:32) Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of Heaven.
(Joh 6:33) For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.
He is the great I AM, and He is the One who comes down out of Heaven to give us life. All the glory goes to Him, we can not boast or take credit for it.
(Joh 1:12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
(Joh 1:13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
We who have received Him, which is Christ in us, were BORN of God. Not of our will, but His.
God bless,
Gary
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I am currently involved in another "Free will" topic on mainstream Christian site, and here are a couple of the points I posted:
We do have a choice whether to be vessels of honor or of wrath, but our choices are only within the confines of God's will. It is God who has chosen who will choose to be vessels of honor and who will choose to be vessels of wrath. For example:
Saul "chose" to repent, but only by way of Christ's divine intervention. He was not willing to repent. It was not Sauls "will" to repent.
What was Saul's will? This was Saul's will:
Acts 9
1And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord
Saul was no different than any other pharisee that was persecuting the disciples. In fact, Paul confessed to being the chief of sinners. But God chose to bring about a divine circumstance in Saul's life that would cause Saul to choose to repent. Saul was unwilling to repent until God changed his will by divine circumstance.
A person, a seemingly very honest seeker, also brought up the idea that if we have no "free will" in this life and everything happens according to how God has planned it, and has planned who will "go to heaven in the afterlife," then she would find it hard to be motivated or see any reason to serve him. So I replied with this:
What about heaven in the afterlife? Do you think we will have "free will" to choose whether or not to obey in the afterlife? Almost everyone says no.
If not, then what is your motivation to be there? If you think there would be no reason to be motivated to serve God in this life if there's no free will, what makes you think you'll be motivated to serve Him in the afterlife with no free will?
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"Free will" is a bogus term in and of itself. Are we free to choose our race? Our parents? Our height? What country we were born in? Our intelligence or our talents? Can our "free will" make any of us an NBA caliber basketball player?
If we were walking down a road and came to a 20 foot tall brick wall can our "free will" allow us to pass through that wall or must we turn back? Even secular philosophers recognized that although we make choices we do not make uncaused choices, that is a christian hoax.
We can choose to drive to work or take a bus or even walk, but our "free will" does not allow us to flap our arms and fly there or even allow us the "free will" not to go to work, that is if we want a roof over our heads and food on the table. Yes, food, does our "free will" give us the opportunity not to have to eat? Sure, if we want to die, doesn't sound like an uncaused choice to me.
We have limitations all around us in our lives, we can make a choice within the confines of our circumstances (who determines our circumstances?) but we do not have nearly enough power to defeat the laws of physics or gravity by our "free will" nor do we have the power to do anything outside the bounds which He has placed us in.
Joe
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"We have limitations all around us in our lives, we can make a choice within the confines of our circumstances (who determines our circumstances?) but we do not have nearly enough power to defeat the laws of physics or gravity by our "free will" nor do we have the power to do anything outside the bounds which He has placed us in.
Hi Joe,
Well put. It brought to mind:
Act 17:24-26 "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed , and the bounds of their habitation.."
It's not for all to see. I praise God that he has shown us....His will is much better than my "free"-will!
Marie
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Marie,
A big Amen! To your post.
It is amazing once our eyes have been opened to this to see how elementary it really is. Where is it written where man has this power that is reserved for God the Father only? Even our Lord did not and does not have "free will."
The point is that there are no examples in the physical world of any free will by either animate or inanimate objects, all of creation is bound by laws, both biologically and/or by the laws of physics (who is the Author of these laws?), compounding that are the unique circumstances (who sets up these "circumstances") in each and every one of our lives.
Yes, we can make choices within certain parameters but we have about as much "free will" as a ball of clay in a potter's hands.
Joe
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Good Stuff everyone. love it.
Now, I believe all this, and study it, but, like the other night trying to explain it to a friend--well I just get all tongue tied and can't remember the scripture etc etc....They get stuck on the Choose this day....my friend didn't get argumentative but I did remember Ray's article on witnessing and I sort of backed off...
Sorry to get off topic....but the more I learn about mythical "free will" the better.
Thanks all.
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Hey Jeremy,
Thanks for the scripture- I looked it up and looked at the conext from which you quote and once again it does not seem to have anything to do with pre-determination. If anything the flavor of the context seems to say that salvation is through righteousness - because those who do not have the spirit are not sons of God and the path to gaining life is by putimg to death the misdeeds of the body. See Romans chptr 8: 1-17
I have a problem with quoting scripture one verse at a time. If I remember my Bible history class correctly dividing scripture into verse and chapter is a relatively new phenomenon- and the verse and chapter divisions are under continual scrutiny by most theologians and is believed by many to convolute the original intention of the author. Another issue I have about single verse quotation is that in that format we can really make scripture say whatever we want it to.
That being said I can see your logic- In a way the process of our salvation began with God's promise to Abraham- a man God apparently chose- and has had a ripple effect from there to here.
I wonder if in our efforts to simplify we have not made things more complex- could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?
Blessings and Realness!!!
Hey guys- I think I got a bit off topic in the spiritual body seperate from flesh discussion- so I am pasting my last responce here... still getting the hang of this forum :)
Now I really have to get off here as I have a paper to write on the 'problem of evil' grrrrrr >:(
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Hi joeshrink
I know I've put about 10 years into studying free will so when I post a scripture out of context I'm doing it with the understanding that others already believe the same as I do. If there are scriptures posted in areas I'm still struggling with then I will continue to ask God and do my own research until he gives me a clear understanding.
My thought is that you would have to post the entire bible to keep everything in context, but I would encourage anyone reading to read it and study and seek God's wisdom.
could it be that both freewill and predetermination are at work in the same system and they perhaps are not as paradoxical as we think?
No
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I think about the freewill thing a lot,Its a real brain frier,somtimes I can feel the electrical currents short sercute in my mind,though I beleave that God is in control of his creation it still boggles my mind at times,but we are the clay and he is the potter,the clay does'nt say to the potter<hey I dont want to be a pot or a jar,we are just clay......jerry
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Yes, we can make choices within certain parameters but we have about as much "free will" as a ball of clay in a potter's hands.
Joe
Hello Joe,
The concept of "free will in a box" is something that I have been struggling with for some time. I recognize that God is the cause of all things but how much freedom of choice within parameters do we have?
In Genesis 1:28 man is given "dominion" over the earth. I took that to mean all things physical. In Gen 2:16 Adam was given the freedom to choose to eat from everything but the tree of knowledge.
My perspective on man's choice has always been that I wonder whether God does not interfere with any choices or limit the choices in any way with respect to our lives here on earth. In other words. If you are a drunk, it is not God's will or His doing but your own choices within the framework of the earth. The argument that a person is born predisposed to act in a certain way has always been an elusive concept to me since much of who we become depends, as you said before, on the parents and environment were born to. So much of our choices are also determined by the framework that our parents have created. Our choices are limited by what their prior choices. I have always wondered how much or detailed is the control without interference that mankind has.
I guess ultimately, the question I have is can anyone define what are the parameters of choice God has given mankind?
feat
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"Free will" is a bogus term in and of itself. Are we free to choose our race? Our parents? Our height? What country we were born in? Our intelligence or our talents? Can our "free will" make any of us an NBA caliber basketball player?
If we were walking down a road and came to a 20 foot tall brick wall can our "free will" allow us to pass through that wall or must we turn back? Even secular philosophers recognized that although we make choices we do not make uncaused choices, that is a christian hoax.
We can choose to drive to work or take a bus or even walk, but our "free will" does not allow us to flap our arms and fly there or even allow us the "free will" not to go to work, that is if we want a roof over our heads and food on the table. Yes, food, does our "free will" give us the opportunity not to have to eat? Sure, if we want to die, doesn't sound like an uncaused choice to me.
We have limitations all around us in our lives, we can make a choice within the confines of our circumstances (who determines our circumstances?) but we do not have nearly enough power to defeat the laws of physics or gravity by our "free will" nor do we have the power to do anything outside the bounds which He has placed us in.
Joe
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From Ray's "Myth of Free Will" Part A (LOF 15):
The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all.
Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.
But does man actually possess such a power? And if he does, where is the proof? Now for all who have no confidence in the Scriptures, let me say that there is absolutely no scientific proof that man has a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." If such a freedom of the will existed, it should be possible to demonstrate it. But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.
And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices
There are laws of science that men do not wish to carry over into his private and spiritual life. Why? Well, because he doesn’t like the ramifications of these laws. He does not want to admit that he is bound and controlled by laws. He wants to be "free"—free to be his own god, free to determine his own destiny, free to override the rule and dominance of God, free to rebel or free to obey, but freedom of the will at all cost.
I will admit that it is a real shock when we first come to understand that of ourselves we cannot make one "free" choice to do good. Something must cause that choice, but the carnal mind hates to be "caused" to do anything. "God gave all men free will," he shouts. God gave man no such thing. Free will is a phantom illusion that has deceived the whole world.
But how could most of the population of the entire world for the whole history of the world believe something as fundamental as "free will," if such a thing does not even exist? Well, that’s a fair question, and before I get into dozens and dozens of specific proofs that free will does not exist, let me just show you two very broad and Scriptural statements that would certainly be indicators that maybe what is popularly believed and taught is generally not true:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
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Good point Bobby, I found some interesting quotes on "Free will" from the philosophy/science view of the matter;
Baruch Spinoza compared man's belief in free will to a stone thinking it chose the path it traveled through the air and the spot it landed. In Ethics he wrote, "The decisions of the mind are nothing save desires, which vary according to various dispositions." "There is in the mind no absolute or free will, but the mind is determined in willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this by another and so on to infinity." "Men think themselves free because they are conscious of their volitions and desires, but are ignorant of the causes by which they are led to wish and desire." [4] [5]
Arthur Schopenhauer, concurring with Spinoza, wrote, "Everyone believes himself à priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life... . But à posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns... ."[6]
You can do what you will, but in any given moment of your life you can will only one definite thing and absolutely nothing other than that one thing.
— Schopenhauer, On the Freedom of the Will, Ch. II
I can do what I will: I can, if I will, give everything I have to the poor and thus become poor myself — if I will! But I cannot will this, because the opposing motives have much too much power over me for me to be able to. On the other hand, if I had a different character, even to the extent that I were a saint, then I would be able to will it. But then I could not keep from willing it, and hence I would have to do so... [A]s little as a ball on a billiard table can move before receiving an impact, so little can a man get up from his chair before being drawn or driven by a motive. But then his getting up is as necessary and inevitable as the rolling of a ball after the impact. And to expect that anyone will do something to which absolutely no interest impels him is the same as to expect that a piece of wood shall move toward me without being pulled by a string.
— Ibid., Ch. III
Schopenhauer's saying, that a human can very well do what he wants, but can not will what he wants, accompanies me in all of life's circumstances and reconciles me with the actions of humans, even when they are truly distressing.
— Albert Einstein, Address to the German League for Human Rights, November 1928. Credo
I also posted this earlier in the thread, a secular point of view on the subject.
His Peace to all,
Joe
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A person, a seemingly very honest seeker, also brought up the idea that if we have no "free will" in this life and everything happens according to how God has planned it, and has planned who will "go to heaven in the afterlife," then she would find it hard to be motivated or see any reason to serve him.
This was a question I anticipated once God gave me understanding of the free will myth. Many people struggle with what this woman shared with you so I knew I had to work out a good response. The answer that I believe God has helped work out in my mind is centered around the resurrections. The motivation to serve Him, even though we lack the free will to do so, is to make the FIRST and BETTER resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Revelation 20:6
Which I'm sure is the one for the just, not the unjust...
having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust. In this, I am exerting myself also, to have a conscience which is no stumbling block toward God and men, continually. Acts 24:15-16
Can anyone see any error in this or have I found an acceptable answer?
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I would think if we have No Free Will that motivation is not important.
If God wants us to serve him we will serve him.
Jonah wasn't motivated to serve God, but God saw to it that he did.
Jonah 1
1Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
Jonah 3
1And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,
2Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.
3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD.
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I think some of us are still caught up in the myth of the term "free will" verses "choices" free will does not apply to humanity, period. If you lose a finger using a power tool can your "free will" grow it back? If your pet gold fish dies can your "free will" restore it to life? If you do not show up for work for 2 weeks without calling in can your "free will" save your job. If you miss a mortgage or car payment for 3 or 4 months can your "free will" keep the bank from reposession?
Motivation is another story, you can be motivated to buy a lottery ticket but can your "free will" ensure you will win? You can desire (be motivated) to win a NASCAR race in a 1976 Chevy Vega that burns oil and has bald tires but can your "free will" make you successful?
We do have the capability to make choices, but the choices are severely limited by the circumstances we find ourselves in, who sets up the circumstances, who decides who our parents are, what our nationality is? Can a Chinese person born on the mainland tap into his "free will" and transform his government? No. Can this same person be motivated or desire to leave his country, face the potential perils and choose to take the risk and suffer the consequences if caught? Yes. Is this what one would call "free will?"
Faith is not "free will" it is a gift from our Lord.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
There is alot of scripture which attests to our "desires" our desires are what often times motivates our actions, who formed us? Who created the essence of our being?
Mark, I believe what you wrote about motivation is right on the money, unless He calls us though we will not be motivated to search for the treasure or seek the Kingdom.
1Pe 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Ray's papers on the free will vs. caused choices explains this much better than I am capable of doing, please read all 4 articles in regard to this issue if you still have questions please state the point you are contending from the paper.
This will be my last response to this topic.
His peace, knowledge and understanding to all of you,
Joe
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A couple more favorites.
The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps. (Proverbs 16:19)
I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)