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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: yayjesus04 on February 27, 2008, 05:53:48 PM
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i have recently felt a call to ministry but i have heard that women cant be pastors...i was wondering what everyone thinks...
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i have recently felt a call to ministry but i have heard that women cant be pastors...i was wondering what everyone thinks...
Have you studied what the scriptures say on this subject? What have are some of your thoughts on scriptures you have read and/or studied?
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yeah i have, im just interested in knowing how everyone else feels
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yeah i have, im just interested in knowing how everyone else feels
But you don't want to express how you feel on the subject in regards to what the scriptures say?
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Here is an entire chapter on the subject (from the NIV). It speaks of overseers and deacons being the husband of one wife. It does not say anything of one being the wife of one husband:
1 Timothy 3
Overseers and Deacons
1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
14Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[c] appeared in a body,[d]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
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soooo...thats about a wife...not a woman as a senior pastor...im not looking for a debate...im wondering what you think, im a bible college kid writing a paper over my calling...and anytime you write a pursuasive paper, its best to find different point of views
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soooo...thats about a wife...not a woman as a senior pastor...im not looking for a debate...im wondering what you think, im a bible college kid writing a paper over my calling...and anytime you write a pursuasive paper, its best to find different point of views
So then why are you debating?
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not debating, simply asking
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not debating, simply asking
when answered you attempt to refute what people tell you rather than taking notes for your paper. Maybe that is a minor detail but I thought I would point it out.
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you gave me scrpture on being a wife...not a pastor
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you gave me scrpture on being a wife...not a pastor
The scripture I gave you was on deacons and overseers aka pastors & preachers...a pastor or preacher is an overseer correct? And the scripture states that one is to be a husband to one wife. So in turn, they would conclude a man since woman do not have wives.
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1 Timothy 2:11-12 KJV Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
NIV 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
NKJV 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
NLT 11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
ESV 11Let a woman learn quietly(T) with all submissiveness. 12(U) I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
ASV 11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
1 Timothy 3 :1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop,[a] he desires a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
episkopos
ep-is'-kop-os
From G1909 and G4649 (in the sense of G1983); a superintendent, that is, Christian officer in general charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): - bishop, overseer.
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
The role of a senior pastor in a Church is that of Shepherd, it his duty to teach. Paul ties the words Pastors and teachers as almost one in the same, part of the same train of thought.
Epheisans 4;11 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
Notice here how Paul separates the words apostles, prophets and evangelists, yet pastors and teachers are tied in the same phrase as one in the same. Pastors teach, preach to, and shepherd their congregation.
Hopefully these scriptures will help you.
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Hello Everyone,
This is a subject in which I venture minimally, it looks as if David has covered the scriptures quite thoroughly that pertain to the issue at hand. I will only add some information relating to the Greek words Diakonos and Diakonoi, realizing this doesn't pertain to overseers(Episkopos-Bishop) or Presbyter(Older man or Elder), mislanslated Priest. Diakonos(Minister in a non-technical sense) literally means " one who is dusty from running in the service of others". EXP-Rom.16:1(Phoebe); 2Cor.3:6(ministers of a covenant). Diakanoi(Deacon or Servant) means Assistants to the Overseers(Episcopos) and Elders(Presbyters) in aiding the congregation in a technical sense. EXP-1Tim.3:1-10(Qualifications of a Deacon) and mentions being a Husband of one Wife(verse 2). Apparently their isn't anything more to contribute to this Thread, since most of it was already covered.
Your brother in Christ, Samson
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Some scriptures show God's approval of his daughters and handmaidens to "prophesy" 4395 propheteuo (prof-ate-yoo'-o); from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: KJV-- prophesy. Whether God would have the female speak with inspiration is His working and not ours:)
Mary spoke with great inspiration in Luke 1:46-55, (as well as Elizabeth). Other than John, those who were with Jesus at the cruxifixion were women. There are several other outstanding women of inspiration and authority mentioned in the scriptures that God found favor with. To be a pastor, teacher, or hold any office is God ordained. True men of God will know who God has chosen without respect of persons and as noted, the scriptures give great examples. Who would want to be in any position of leadership in the churches of Babylon where you have to subscribe to a traditional belief system and where there would be no one able to discern who God has truly chosen at all?
Acts 21:8-9
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.(KJV)
Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(KJV)
Rest in the Lord.....wait patiently for Him,
Barbara
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Some scriptures show God's approval of his daughters and handmaidens to "prophesy" 4395 propheteuo (prof-ate-yoo'-o); from 4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: KJV-- prophesy. Whether God would have the female speak with inspiration is His working and not ours:)
Mary spoke with great inspiration in Luke 1:46-55, (as well as Elizabeth). Other than John, those who were with Jesus at the cruxifixion were women. There are several other outstanding women of inspiration and authority mentioned in the scriptures that God found favor with. To be a pastor, teacher, or hold any office is God ordained. True men of God will know who God has chosen without respect of persons and as noted, the scriptures give great examples. Who would want to be in any position of leadership in the churches of Babylon where you have to subscribe to a traditional belief system and where there would be no one able to discern who God has truly chosen at all?
Acts 21:8-9
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.(KJV)
Acts 2:17-18
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(KJV)
Rest in the Lord.....wait patiently for Him,
Barbara
Is a women prophesying the same as being a bishop or a pastor? I didn't see that in the epistles that Paul wrote on being a bishop or pastor. He stated a husband of one wife. Paul was not encouraging one to be an overseer in a corrupt church system but as one over true believers. Paul didn't talk about an overseer for nothing or in vain. Obviously it had some kind of importance.
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Here are a couple of emails on this subject.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2144.0.html -----
The answer is quote simple:
"IN CHRIST" there is no "male or female." But, IN THE FLESH there still is male and female, otherwise homosexuality would not be a sin. Can you see how silly that approach to this Scripture would be?
We are still in physical bodies and we are still male and female, and as such the man is the head of the woman just as Jesus is the head of the Church. And as such, Paul did not permit women to preach or teach in the congregation. However, there are many situation in which women can teach: to their children (both girls and boys); on the telephone, in letters, in group discussions, etc. I believe their teaching is just pretty much limited in the area of not getting in front of an assembly of men and women and being featured as the main speaker or teacher. Not that she might not be able or qualified, but rather it is a matter of subjection to authority. I have never done a long study on this subject, but I have read several papers by those who have, and most of them are shot through with theological holes.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2018.0.html -------
Dear Mr. Jackson:
Certainly women are able to declare God's Truth, as you state. It is also true that those baptized into Christ are, "...neither male nor female...IN CHRIST." (Gal. 2:27-28). But we are also still IN THE FLESH, and in the flesh, we are indeed male and female. If the statement that IN Christ there is no "difference" between male and female, then homosexuality would be perfectly fine. Can you not see the problem here with thinking like that?
When Paul instructed the early Church that women were to keep silent in the Church, it was not just a "Jewish custom and tradition." Here is another declaration from Paul concerning men and women still in the flesh: "But I would have you know, that the Head of every man is Christ, and the HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; and the Head of Christ is God" (I Cor. 11:3). This statement is not "custom and tradition.
When Paul says: "Let your women keep silence in the churches...." (I Cor. 14:34) it is not custom or tradition, but rather "...the things I write unto you are the COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD" (Verse 37).
Also understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. Yes, both are called "the sons [some times children[ of God," but this is often used as is "Adam" and "man" in the Genesis when really referring to "humanity" in the Hebrew.
When God "receives us unto Himself," are we all "males?" "Masculine?"
Notice what the Scripture tells us: "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be My sons AND DAUGHTERS, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 6:18).
God be with you,
Ray
p.s. But for the reasons of authority mentioned above and other reasons too numerous to cover in an email, God has ordained that women are not to be the teachers in formal meetings of the congregations.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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That's exactly what I was thinking and attempting to state...thanks for the emails Kat
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Just to clarify, I was sticking strictly to the question asked about a woman in the role of a Senior Pastor and hopefully providing scripture that pertained to that issue.
I see nothing in scripture which would disalow or stop women as evengelists or prophets. It was Mary who'm our Lord chose to reveal himself to and to report the good news that our Lord and Savior is risen. In each Gospel account it is the Women who are first aware of Christs resurrection, and it is the Women who are instructed by the Angel and the men in white and shining garments at the tomb, and by Jesus Christ himself to take the good news to his disciples. If Christ had not intended for Women to have a fully active role in spreading the Gospel, then this would not be so. However, it is men that are commitioned with the role of Bishopry, Pastors, teachers and eldership in the Church.
Pauls instructions to me seem to pertain strictly to Womens role in the Church and in the home.
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Certainly there is a difference in leadership, authority, and spiritual gifts:) Why would anyone desire to be in a position of authority when there are more charitable paths to follow? Man does appoint women to the ministry in some traditional churches. Some desire to be in authority over those belief systems, believing their own desire to be the Lord's calling. The will of the Lord for His purpose, I suppose..........................He is working His perfect love in so many ways that we do not understand. Is this website a local congregation?
43951 Cor 14:1
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
(KJV)
Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
Is a women prophesying the same as being a bishop or a pastor? I didn't see that in the epistles that Paul wrote on being a bishop or pastor. He stated a husband of one wife. Paul was not encouraging one to be an overseer in a corrupt church system but as one over true believers. Paul didn't talk about an overseer for nothing or in vain. Obviously it had some kind of importance.
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In Christ (THE TRUE CHURCH), we're all ministers.
- 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
- Galatians 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
If you get a chance, read the whole chapter 12 of 1st Corinthians about the hand, the feet, the ears, and the eyes. In this world, we (THE TRUE CHURCH) are extensions of Christ as members of His body wired by and through the His Holy Spirit.
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Hello Bradigans,
I briefly mentioned in my Post the distinction between Diakonsos(Minister or Servant) in a Non-Technical sense, literally meaning one who is dusty from running in the service of others, Exp was Phoebe, Rom. 16:1 contrasted with Diakonoi(Deacon), minister in a technical sense as described at 1Tim. 3:1-10(Qualifications of a Deacon mentioned their, a Husband of one Wife, assisting the Elders(Presbyters) or Overseers(Episcopos), usually rendered "Bishop".
Your brother in Christ, Samson.
P.S. I think that in parts of Christendom, Diakonos and Diakonoi are used interchangeably, but their seems to be a distinction between the two.
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you gave me scrpture on being a wife...not a pastor
The scripture I gave you was on deacons and overseers aka pastors & preachers...a pastor or preacher is an overseer correct? And the scripture states that one is to be a husband to one wife. So in turn, they would conclude a man since woman do not have wives.
Paul did not have a wife either. Would this conclude he is not an exceptable overseer?
Bill
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Having thought about this for some time myself,And seeing and hearing several females on tv and radio. I wondered too about women teaching. But I have come to learn and truly believe that God is incharge, his will be done in our lives. Search your heart, is it for others or, yourself. God will provide the answer for you. If it is his will for you, you will succeed, if not you will fail. Z
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To all,
This is just my thinking and I feel there is much support in the Bible that a woman's teaching role is to be limited. The word Pastors is mentioned only one time in the New Testament. I personally feel there may be many Pastors within a single church. Senior Pastor seems to me an elevation that I don't feel is Biblical. Having come out of the church system I feel we need elders, deacons and overseers who are qualified to teach. However, their teaching should be more by example than enticing words. The whole pastor system is basically trading a priest for a pastor and all the ills incumbent with the denominational, institutional and organized church system. When I came out of the church system I had a pastor that I loved and I still do. However, he was so theologically attached to the church system and man made traditions that GOD dragged me out completely. I praise GOD for this. Now I am not in bondage to the Babylonian system and can worship in spirit and in truth.
Having digressed from my main point concerning women as pastors, I will try to wrap up my thoughts. I think we all are ministers both men and women. It is my personal belief that I find more women that are truly committed to Christ than I do men. They are perhaps better equipped than men to teach and certainly have a most important role to play in teaching their children and other women. My daughter and I often disagree over this subject and I respect her arguments. However, as GOD is over Christ and CHRIST is over his called out one's so is the husband over the wife. I think Paul, directed by GOD"S SPIRIT, had a purpose ordained by GOD to limit the role of women. I could argue my reasons for my thinking but doubt they would be constructive in this discussion.
Phil3:10
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Either you believe the scriptures or you don't. The beast doesn't want to relinquish his power and this is a battle not just fought by the men, but by the women as well. What kind of independant women wants to be subject to her husband anyway? Subject.. what a nasty word right? I'm independant and free and i don't need him crys the beast!
God bless,
Alex
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The origininal question
I have recently felt a call to ministry but i have heard that women cant be pastors...i was wondering what everyone thinks.
What a Nicolation statement.....we are ALL called.....the problem is that many called fail to follow the TRUE SHEPARD and willing submit to clergy and the tradtions of men.
Those who now hear the voice of Christ...... take up their cross and follow Him and die daily.....we are brethern ...no leaders here. :D
Therefore the question is irrelevant....the servant.... serves....If you are humble and do the job well you are acting as a junior shepard...You are not in charge, you are not the source of information, you are still just a sheep yourself.
Mat 23:8 KJVR) But be not ye called Rabbi (Teacher): for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
(Mat 23:9 KJVR) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
(Mat 23:10 KJVR) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
(Mat 23:11 KJVR) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
(Mat 23:12 KJVR) And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(Mat 23:13 KJVR) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
If you understand that the bible is a parable...then the gender thing is too.....study on it. The many called who become the laity in the church are foolish women with itchy ears. ::)
Did women serve....absoloodle....look how they are mentioned in the scriptures. They supported Jesus and the apostles....mostly nameless except for a few.
Beloved
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The origininal question
I have recently felt a call to ministry but i have heard that women cant be pastors...i was wondering what everyone thinks.
What a Nicolation statement.....we are ALL called.....the problem is that many called fail to follow the TRUE SHEPARD and willing submit to clergy and the tradtions of men.
Those who now hear the voice of Christ...... take up their cross and follow Him and die daily.....we are brethern ...no leaders here. :D
Therefore the question is irrelevant....the servant.... serves....If you are humble and do the job well you are acting as a junior shepard...You are not in charge, you are not the source of information, you are still just a sheep yourself.
Mat 23:8 KJVR) But be not ye called Rabbi (Teacher): for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
(Mat 23:9 KJVR) And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
(Mat 23:10 KJVR) Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
(Mat 23:11 KJVR) But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
(Mat 23:12 KJVR) And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
(Mat 23:13 KJVR) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
If you understand that the bible is a parable...then the gender thing is too.....study on it. The many called who become the laity in the church are foolish women with itchy ears. ::)
Did women serve....absoloodle....look how they are mentioned in the scriptures. They supported Jesus and the apostles....mostly nameless except for a few.
Beloved
Amen sister! =] <3
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I believe the problem nowadays is everyone wants to be noticed. They're seeking the accolades of men (theological degrees) rather then the approval of God. Folks will compromise God's word to be noticed and commended in a local assembly they call church.
- John 12:43 - For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Don't be concerned about being noticed by the hypocrites. Have you ever experienced God's Spirit? Ministry in THE CHURCH (Mark 14:58, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 Peter 2:5) can take many forms, but Paul stressed certain guidelines when it came to the local church as Ray, James, Samson and a few others explained. The local church has been compromised. They allow everything. By and large, I believe Christ's Spirit is no longer in there. This is why God is and has called His children out.
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I was just thinking about the bible being one parable and considering that "woman" represents the carnal nature of man. If it be so, then it would
be expedient that the "carnal" keep silent, whether male or female. Likewise, the spiritual "man" should be given a voice to proclaim the truth Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father. That certainly takes the statement by Paul to a higher level.
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
I daresay if a true woman or man of God is called God to minister the absolute Truth to a carnal belief system, they should have the covering of Jesus Christ over the head of their spiritual man. It is the carnal nature that seeks to silence the truth and even persecute and kill the messenger. Even the thought of such a calling should cause the heart to fear and tremble. Do nothing to please the beast, but seek only to please God. Let the desires of your heart be His desires :) The Lord's will be done....go with God.
1 Cor 2:2-4
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Eph 6:5-7
5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
(KJV)
Rest in the Lord,
Barbara
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It doesn't concern me if women or men are pastors.