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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Extol on October 14, 2006, 08:44:57 AM
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JOHN 15 (CLNT)
22 "If I came not and speak to them, they had no sin. Yet now they have no pretense concerning their sin.
23 He who is hating Me is hating My Father also.
24 If I do not the works among them which no other one does, they had no sin. Yet now they have seen also, and they have hated Me as well as My Father,
25 but it is that the word written in their law may be fulfilled, that they hate Me gratuitously.
I wonder, does this disprove what Dr. Kennedy and others say about God not being responsible for Africans who have never heard?
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I would say an absolutely, heck yes!!!
Good point made.
God bless,
Gary
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Extol, here is another example:
Rom 1:18 - For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 - Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Pretty much clinches it don't you think :)
I bet Dr. Kennedy ignores this scripture too!
Love to you,
Darren
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;D ;D ;D
Arcturus :)
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It makes me wonder why they would send missionaries to those who've never heard. I mean ... c'mon ... they're safe if they don't know, but share the Gospel with them and they risk rejecting it and going to hell. If I believed that, I'd never tell anyone.
And why would Jesus want us to share the Gospel with people if, by sharing, they might be condemned to burn in hell forever? ::)
Makes no sense. But then, neither does much of what the church teaches!
Sandy
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Hi SandyFla
Good point! :)
They thinkand are indoctrinated to accept and act on believing that everyone is going to hell anyway and only they can stop it. They think that all those who don't know they bare going to hell are opportunities for them get brownie points if they do Gods job which they think God can't do anyway.... :-\
Shame! :'(
Arcturus :)
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It makes me wonder why they would send missionaries to those who've never heard. I mean ... c'mon ... they're safe if they don't know, but share the Gospel with them and they risk rejecting it and going to hell. If I believed that, I'd never tell anyone.
And why would Jesus want us to share the Gospel with people if, by sharing, they might be condemned to burn in hell forever? ::)
Makes no sense. But then, neither does much of what the church teaches!
Sandy
I read somewhere that the "great commission" was really Jesus telling the disciples to witness to the Jews- not a mandate for the general populace. What does anyone know about that???
Sandy, I always thought that too, about missionaries--No, don't tell anyone!!
gena
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Yes, that is a good point, Sandy. Never seen it like that before. ;D ;D
Extol, here is a verse that totally throws their freewill theory out the window.
(2Pe 2:10 ASV) but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise dominion. Daring, self-willed, they tremble not to rail at dignities:
That is a dangerous thing to believe that our will overpowers the will of the One who made us. Yet, they push that so hard. What is the whole purpose to the plan of God, if it comes down to our own will. I thank God that our destiny is not dependent upon the will of mankind, whew, we all would be in a heap of trouble. ;)
God bless,
Gary
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Yes, that is a good point, Sandy. Never seen it like that before. ;D ;D
Right. Don't tell them and they automatically go to heaven; tell them and they could go to hell. (Against Scripture, they believe that everyone is lost and on their way to hell.)
So why send missionaries? Their answer: Because Jesus said so.
But doesn't Jesus know that by telling them, He is allowing many of them to be condemned to the eternal fires of hell?
How stupid and mixed up do they think He is? ::)
Sandy
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The plan is that they experience how stupid and mixed up they are....just like I was once!...Shame..they are in for a painful revelation.....Ouch..
Arcturus :)
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Guys and Gals,
There has been some very interesting discourse in this thread. But I think perhaps, by whose will is being followed is forgotten.
Case in point, only God knows the true motive in ones heart (he put it there or allowed Satan) To this point, I have known some wonderful missionaries during my travels and although I might not agree with 100% of their doctrine, I cannot fault many at all in the way they extended their lives and put up with all kinds of hardship trying to preach the Word of God as they understand it, all the while caring for God's children who were often malnourished, un educated and often sickly.
Do you really think that it is Christ in us condemning such as these (looking at no-one!!) :D
Or would he show some compassion? Surely there is no comparison between missionaries and the likes of the TV evangelists. :)
I was once lost too. I believed (hoped for, prayed for) that I was doing the right thing. Why do you think that there are so many churches? It's because each has a different version of the truth.
Who knows what God has planned for all his children, least of all me. :) Anyone of these could log onto Bible-Truths tomorrow and we would all welcome them as brothers and sisters and rejoice there being here.
If I over stepped the mark, then please let me know.
Comments always welcome because I am here to learn the truth.
Love,
Darren
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Hello Darren,
You are correct and have not overstepped the mark. I believe you hit the nail on the head, my brother. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Looking to where I was, and to where God now has me, knowing full well its not from any merit on my part. We all are here, because of Him, and the future will be because of Him.
Thanks for the wake up call, brother.
God bless,
Gary
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Thanks Gary :)
May the love of God continue to shine through you.
Darren
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Want an example of the "commission"? My husband and I have this friend, a Vietnam vet who saw and did "unspeakable things" (he has said, but never discusses what these things are) and as a result is an alcoholic. My husband would tell him and this other friend about the gospels and the Bible in general, most of the time getting blown off about it. Well, after years of this, I went up to see him, mainly to see if he was still alive or did he drink himself to death, and Praise God, he was not only alive but sober, eating food, his house was clean, no booze smell, in fairy good health, and he told me he believed in Christ and read the Bible and was cleaning up his act. All under God's power (not my husband's) But he said he wasn't going to church (he's a loner, hates crowds, and five is a crowd to him!) and i said great, don't go! Read the Bible and stay out of church! But if God doesn't use us to tell others about His word (knowing only He will call them to accept Him), aren't we like the folks to whom much is given and much is expected or like the one who is taken away from even the little he has? (I don't remember the verses but these are in the gospels). Or does this apply to something else? In any case in no way did either my husband or I think "we" could "save' him. Unfortunately, he doesn't own a computer and never used the Internet...he'd definintely be interested in Bible Truths.org--snorky
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What a wonderful story Snorky :)
For sure God was in control, but don't you think that he used you and your husband as well?
Seems to me that your (you and your husband) actions may have spoken louder than words. I think we try our best to make God complicated :) I went to church for years and became more confused each time.
This is the second time I have used this Scripture in this thread (I think it is my favourite) :)
Rom 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I believe this scripture is so often overlooked. The first time I visited Bible-Truth's I knew that I had found what I was looking for. How could I know if not for the above verse. Why do peoples of every land believe in "something" supernatural?
If you think your friend is ready, print some of Rays papers and give them to him to read. I would not pressure him, but be there should he have questions. God's ways are not our ways and who could even guess what he has planned.
Thanks so much for sharing this story. I'm sure you and your husband made a difference. :)
Love,
Darren
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Guys and Gals,
There has been some very interesting discourse in this thread. But I think perhaps, by whose will is being followed is forgotten.
Case in point, only God knows the true motive in ones heart (he put it there or allowed Satan) To this point, I have known some wonderful missionaries during my travels and although I might not agree with 100% of their doctrine, I cannot fault many at all in the way they extended their lives and put up with all kinds of hardship trying to preach the Word of God as they understand it, all the while caring for God's children who were often malnourished, un educated and often sickly.
Do you really think that it is Christ in us condemning such as these (looking at no-one!!) :D
Or would he show some compassion? Surely there is no comparison between missionaries and the likes of the TV evangelists. :)
That's an issue that really confuses me, as well. I think about these missionaries and I know that there is no way I could ever (at least at this time) give up my entire way of living to live in a third world country and teach others. What a great work! Part of me couldn't imagine people like that being judged harshly. But then...
I also think about when Jesus said woe to them who travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when converted, they become twice as much a son of "hell" as they themselves. I also think about those who will do many wonderful works in His name only to be told "I never knew you."
It's also important to remember that there are missionaries in all religions - mormonism, JW, Islam, you name it. These are all people who are making sacrifices to share their faith with others. Surely all of these missionaries will not receive praise on judgment day.
I really believe that if someone is preaching untruths as though they are truths, they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom. I don't know how harsh the judgment will be, but I can't see Him praising and commending someone who, even though the motive may not have been selfish, taught a blasphemous gospel to masses of people.
I could be wrong, though.
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I also want to add something to my previous post. I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
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Joey,
I have to agree with the points you made here, what knowledge were these missionaries exposed to, what did they reject, if anything? Did they make a concious decision to put away any knowledge or possibility that Universal Salvation is real because "hell" is such an effective way of getting people to "the cross?"
What was their real (heartfelt) motivation? Was it to rack up huge numbers of "converts" like a shooting guard in a basketball game? Was it (missionary work) a requirement of their church to remain in good standing?
Or were they acting on the limited understanding the Lord has given them but still having a strong love for Him and humanity?
In most cases only the Lord and the missionary will know the answer to these questions.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joey wrote:
I really believe that if someone is preaching untruths as though they are truths, they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom. I don't know how harsh the judgment will be, but I can't see Him praising and commending someone who, even though the motive may not have been selfish, taught a blasphemous gospel to masses of people.
This is of course the million$ question. How does one know if the truth's they hold so dear are indeed true or false. As hard as I might and as much as I prayed for wisdom and understanding, I never knew, until God openned my eyes.
How can one hear the truth and turn away from it, if not by God. Is there anyone here strong enough to walk away from God, if he does not will it? This is important, becasue God is in control and everything is happening according to his will, so who are we to say that "they will have no reward for that, nor any place in the kingdom." because, they are doing and saying all that God has allowed them to see.
We should not look down on them, rather we should weep for them. How sad is it that those who genuinely believe that they have the truth, do not.
But this is not the end of it, what of: (third use) :)
Rom 1:20-
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Not a single person alive is without excuse. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead. Though they are being preached to, it does not mean nor imply that all believe in their hearts that the words are true. Can anyone say that every preacher / missionary believes every piece of doctrine without question?
Not one of us is any greater than any other by our own work. We are who we are just like everyone else, by the grace of God.
Truth is at war with untruth, ie Christ is at war with the ruler of this world, Satan. Christ will know well the motives of a persons heart. He will know that any untruth will be of Satan. Is there anyone who can resist Satan if not by Christ or God? Of course not! :)
Christ will judge everyone according to his own criteria. Does it not worry you, that Christ may look at "us" with disdain, because we didn't even try to correct the missionaries or help teach the masses the truth? Are we not worse then them?
Relax Joey, :) All is going to God's plan and all will be revealed in time.
Thanks for a very thought provoking post.
Darren
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Joey wrote:
I also want to add something to my previous post. I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
I'm not picking on you Joey :) but I am commenting on a couple of points for my benefit.
1. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error.
This kind of like taking one to the forest, but they could not see it for the trees. Whose fault is that? They didn't know what they were looking for. Just because one finds the truth, but does not see it as such; is this because of their willful ignorance or because of the will of God? Can anyone ignore God, if he does not want to be? :)
2. I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.
This is an interesting point. Should they be judged harsher than you or I, just because God did not give them eyes to see? Once again, only God knows the motives of the heart.
3. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
Once again, this comes back to whether "either" are living outside the will of God. If they are, then we are in control of our own destiny and God takes what he gets; or each are judged according to their hearts.
Lastly, do you think they are preaching "hell-fire" against the will of God? If not, then surely this a mute point, for why would anyone be judged harsher for living according to the light provided?
Food for thought. Joe, I would love to hear your take on this, because if I am wrong, I need to know. :)
Love and Godspeed to you all,
Darren
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Hello everyone
Rev 20:12,13 I also saw the dead, grat and small, they stood before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged, sentenced by what they had done, their whole way of feeling and acting, their aims and endeavors in accordance with what was recorded in the books.
13 And the sea delivered up the dead who were in it, death and Hades surrendered the dead in them and all were tried and their cases determined by what they had done according to their MOTIVES aims and works....
Motives....a good point to ponder ;D
Arcturus :)
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Romans 3
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
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MG what a wonderful pertaining peice of Scripture. :)
What do you think it has to say regarding, the discussion thus far. I ask this so that anyone new here may not get lost because they have not the understanding of Pauls words.
Thanks,
God Bless you,
Darren
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Joey wrote:
I also want to add something to my previous post. I think a lot may hinge upon how much truth had been revealed to the missionary person. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error, I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
I'm not picking on you Joey :) but I am commenting on a couple of points for my benefit.
1. For example, if a person had been shown the erroneous teachings of mainstream Christianity and yet would have no part of it, and went on to be a missionary and continued to teach error.
This kind of like taking one to the forest, but they could not see it for the trees. Whose fault is that? They didn't know what they were looking for. Just because one finds the truth, but does not see it as such; is this because of their willful ignorance or because of the will of God? Can anyone ignore God, if he does not want to be? :)
2. I think that person will be judged more severely than a missionary who had never been expoosed to the untruths being taught.
This is an interesting point. Should they be judged harsher than you or I, just because God did not give them eyes to see? Once again, only God knows the motives of the heart.
3. But I don't believe either will have a reward.
Once again, this comes back to whether "either" are living outside the will of God. If they are, then we are in control of our own destiny and God takes what he gets; or each are judged according to their hearts.
Lastly, do you think they are preaching "hell-fire" against the will of God? If not, then surely this a mute point, for why would anyone be judged harsher for living according to the light provided?
Food for thought. Joe, I would love to hear your take on this, because if I am wrong, I need to know. :)
Love and Godspeed to you all,
Darren
I understand what you're saying in both of your posts. There is no doubt that God's will is being carried out within everyone's life and deeds. However, I'm not sure how far we can take the idea of a person not being held accountable because of God's sovereignty. For example, aside from missionaries - what about murderes, atheists, fornicators, etc. Of course their deeds are all a part of God's sovereign operation, but it does not mean that they won't be judged harshly.
Another point to remember - I believe it's James who points out that those who assume the role of teachers will be judged more severely than those who are not. I would tend to believe that missionaries have assumed the role of teacher just by the nature of what they do.
Please don't get the idea that I'm trying to shut people out of the kingdom. I know I'm having a hard enough time living in a manner in which I would be fit for the kingdom. I guess it will all come down to whether or not I've been chosen. But again, I think it would be difficult for anyone who is steadfastly preaching a false gospel to enter the kingdom.
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I have a hard time with words Darren, but I'll try.
Ray says that THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST
It is God that brought me to the great falling away. He tore down my spiritual house and I was shown that my house was built on sand. I had many parts of my house still built on sand even when I found bibletruths.com. Everything I've been shown and every work that has been done in me is completely from God and I can take no credit for any of it. I like Paul am the chief of sinners. I had a zeal for God, but it was without knowledge. I learned that there is no good thing in me and for me to live is Christ only. My old man will never be good. Only God is good.
Before this happened I was teaching lies to children in Sunday School. I was trampling the completed work of Christ under my feet by begging God to save my family from hell. I was arrogant thinking I had truth that they didn't have. I was sure I was saved and they weren't. I did not have a teacher. God revealed his truth through his word. I fell on my face in repentance. I am the chief of sinners. Faith is a gift from God and I can't boast about anything that I've received through that gift of faith. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Only God can call us out. Only God can choose us and reveal the truth to us. I am no different than any missionary or any sinner. I am here because God called me out. I didn't choose Him. He chose me. It is a gift.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
ALL FALL AWAY
I showed numerous times that all: leave their first love, forsake Jesus, look back, blaspheme, build a spiritual house upon the sand, etc.
It is when John is standing on the sand of the sea that he first sees the wild beast come up out of the sea. Now the questions become: "WHEN did John stand upon the sand in HIS life? WHEN do we stand upon the sand in OUR lives?
Answer: When the spiritual house that we all build falls down with a ‘GREAT FALL.’ When (notice I did not say, ‘IF’)…when our spiritual house built upon the spiritual sand falls, WE ARE LEFT STANDING ON THE SAND OF THE SEA. We are only INCHES above the very sea itself—the masses and multitudes of humanity who do not have any knowledge of God AT ALL. It doesn’t mean that we have no knowledge of God at all at this quandary in our spiritual lives; it just means that we are no closer to God than all the humanity in the sea. Hence, we are not IN the sea, but rather standing on the SAND of the sea where out spiritual house just FELL!
And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! This wild beast will be reckoned with by all humanity sooner or later.
THERE MUST COME A ‘FALLING AWAY’ FIRST
I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God’s called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.
The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times…" That’s a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God’s plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "…and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for
"Who are you that judges another man’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).
We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:
"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!
When John’s spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
This wild beast is further identified in Rev. 13:14 when we are told this
"…beast, which had the wound [deadly wound, Ver. 3] by the sword, and DID LIVE."
He was wounded to death, but the wound was healed and he again lived. He also has a mark, and a name, and a number. What is this mysterious number that has baffled scholars, theologians, and saints for centuries? I will not give you the complete answer to this at this time, but will only show you that it is the number of mankind—humanity.
THE NUMBER 666
"Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding count the NUMBER OF THE BEAST: for it is the NUMBER OF A MAN; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six [666]" (Rev. 13:18).
Is this indeed what the Greek manuscripts of Rev. 13:18 state? No, it is not.
The Greek word used when only man is meant (always excluding woman), is aner. But the Greek word translated "man" in Rev. 13:18 is not aner, but rather the word anthropos, which means "a human being, male or female." Strong’s Concordant.
Furthermore, it is not the number of "a" anything. It is just the number of human or of mankind! Even the Revised Standard Version translators saw this and therefore, states, "It’s number is six hundred sixty-six." The number of the wild beast is not the number of "a" man, but rather the number of "man" or "mankind."
With this in mind let’s read II Thes. 2:3:
"Let no man [‘let not any person,’ RSV, ‘Let no ONE…’] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a ‘FALLING AWAY’ first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, ‘the lawless one’ ‘the one destined for destruction’ is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don’t want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
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MG, :)
Please don't think I was trying to put you on the spot. Actually, I never knew you have had time with words; truth to tell, you write fine. :)
We can do nothing on our own, all is from God. I had so much doctrine shoved down my throat, its a wonder I can still breathe. I do not know how many times I was told not to ask questions like that; or who are you to question God. The words I was being taught just didn't mesh.
But on the same hand, the teachers were all good and I believe sincere in their belief. Even to this day I will respect anyone who stands firm in what they believe even if I do not agree with them. The world of political correctness has created many who have no idea how to stand for even what is right.
MG, I do not know you other than your words; however, words speak a lot of the person and although you say that you were sure you were saved; I think that's just part of the job. :)
I firmly believe that Christ through Ray has started something that will sweep the world. The Scripture you posted is so perfect, we owe everything to God for without him we are less than nothing.
Thanks for a wonderful reply,
Much love to you,
Darren
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Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
His Peace and Wisdom to all,
Joe
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Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
His Peace and Wisdom to all,
Joe
Hi Joe,
The thing I wonder about such scriptures is whether they pertain to the overtly carnal preachers or if this includes all preachers and teachers who are in error.
For example, many of the big name televangelists are easily spotted as phonies and wolves, even by many other mainstream Christian teachers. I'm talking about people like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, etc. Their greed and corruption is easy to see, even for many other teachers and sheep who are in error.
But there are also many men who seem very humble and genuine, albeit wrong about their teachings. Men like Charles Stanley and David Jeremiah - of the times I've listened to them (which used to be often) they would often preach about being humble and Christ like, and making God the priority in our lives.
Many times I've heard Charles Stanley talk about humbling ourselves before God, relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand the scriptures, treating everyone the way we want to be treated, and obeying God in all we do. He seems to have a genuine love and concern for the congregation and for the lost. And sometimes I just wonder "How can he still be so in the dark? He seems to have a humble spirit and a great love for God. Why hasn't he been shown the error of what he teaches?"
The only conclusion I can think of is that he must have some part of him deep down inside that is somehow at enmity with God, or some type of pride that he may not even be aware of, and it's keeping him blinded and hardened to the truth. I believe he has built a multi million dollar facility called "The Charles Stanley Institute" which offers bible study courses and so forth. Perhaps his self named facility is a sign that he desires pre-eminence. I don't know. I don't want to judge the man too harshly but there must be some reason why he is still teaching false doctrines.
It's difficult to analyze how people can seem so humble and sincere and yet be so far in error.
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Joe (our wonderful Mod) wrote:
Joey,
I can see exactly where you are coming from, there are many scriptures that back up this point you are making, here are but a few, actually the entire book of Zechariah (among others) deals with this very subject.
Isa 56:11 Yea, they are greedy, dogs which can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jer 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their resting place.
Eze 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
Eze 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
Oh boy Joe, you're going to get sick of me. :-\
My question is simple. Did any of the above teach, listen or walk from the truth of their own free will?
Eph 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11 - In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Act 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
1Pe 1:2- Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Seems pretty clear to me that God knows everything way in advance. We have all shared stories of how God dragged us from our previous lives, were we any less sinners than those you mention. This is so very important, because either they were doing their own will or the will of God. Jesus had not yet died and arisen. Paul writes of the that time.
Tts 3:3-7- 3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.
- 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
- 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
- 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
- 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Here's another question :)
Who are the heirs to eternal life? Was it something they did, did they earn it? Thankfully Paul let's us in on the answer. Thnks MG for this Scripture. ")
Ephesians 2:8- For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Once again, not by ourselves but by the grace of God.
Finally (and please don't tell me this is a question I shouldn't ask) :)
Just how righteous is our God if he punishes one person harder than another, when in truth they were doing His will 100%. Will those who died prior to Christ be judged differently?
Just some loose ends that need to be tied.
Thank you Joe, :)
Darren
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The only conclusion I can think of is that he must have some part of him deep down inside that is somehow at enmity with God, or some type of pride that he may not even be aware of, and it's keeping him blinded and hardened to the truth. I believe he has built a multi million dollar facility called "The Charles Stanley Institute" which offers bible study courses and so forth. Perhaps his self named facility is a sign that he desires pre-eminence. I don't know. I don't want to judge the man too harshly but there must be some reason why he is still teaching false doctrines.
It's difficult to analyze how people can seem so humble and sincere and yet be so far in error.
I too, know many personally (from my old church), and others like Charles Stanley who seem so humble and sincere and are yet so far in error, I wondered the same thing Joey.
I agree with Darren's response and would like to add:
Rom 8:7-8
(KJV) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Deep down inside we all cannot please God, only if we have been chosen to by Him can we begin to please Him. Our natural state is ENMITY against Him. We all have pride deep inside that can only be revealed and taken away (growing process) when Jesus says so. Charles Stanley and the many like him are where God has them. They can only learn and grow if He draws them to Him.
Peace to you,
Marie
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Darren,
You wrote, "Once again, not by ourselves but by the grace of God.
Finally (and please don't tell me this is a question I shouldn't ask)
Just how righteous is our God if he punishes one person harder than another, when in truth they were doing His will 100%. Will those who died prior to Christ be judged differently?
Just some loose ends that need to be tied.
Thank you Joe,
Darren
Joey is not saying that the people being judged did the evil acts of their own free will, however, he is saying they did them. The Lord Jesus speaks of few and many stripes in Luke12:47-48 as though there are going to be differences in how people are judged.
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
The reason for the difference in the severity of the judgment is because it is what is required to make the person righteous. The more evil a person is the more severe a judgment is required to make the person righteous. The Lord is not out to get somebody. His judgment is Righteous because He's making things right.
aktikt
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Hi
To clarify and tie up the loose ends I am quoting Ray here.....
"....distinguish between God's "will" and God's "plan" to achieve His "will". God's will is live righteously. His plan, first live UNrighteously to be humbled in our utter inability to do God's perfect will. Repent of weakness and wickedness. Understand we sin vulunterily from our hearts. So it is only right and good that we should be punished and converted into the Imageo of God's Son.
God does NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN!!! God made man SPIRITUALLY WEAK. Man volunteers to sin. God does not FORCE him to sin. On God's part making man weak He has also a plan to MAKE HIM SPIRITUALLY STRONG. With God the end ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. God will RIGHT EVERY WRONG."
This explaination once and for all tied up all the loose ends for me ;D... and hope it does for you.
Arcturus :)