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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Chris on April 15, 2018, 11:01:51 PM
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Hey BT family.. can anyone recommend a good Revelation commentary, either online or in print? I know Mike Vinson has one on his site but Ray said it was poorly written and full of errors.
Revelation is by far the most difficult book for me to understand, so I would appreciate any help with this.
Thanks and peace to all
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Might I suggest the Holy Spirit, it comes Highly recommended ;)
Seriously though, since most theologians believe Revelations is literal, I'm not sure one exists.
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Might I suggest the Holy Spirit, it comes Highly recommended ;)
Yes of course, but that same Holy Spirit also tells us: there is safety in a multitude of counselors (Proverbs 11:14)
I have learned more from Ray and the people on this message board than I could ever have learned studying by myself.
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Chris, these may help.
The “Lake of Fire” Series
Part I
The Book of Revelation is a Book of Symbols
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
1. Five general scenarios
2. Three false assumptions
3. Literal or symbolic?
4. Biblical figures of speech
5. Parables are not literally true stories
6. Making the simple complicated
7. Keeping the simple, simple
8. Physical fire versus spiritual fire
9. God is this lake of fire?
How Hard Is Getting Saved
This article has some great stuff as well.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
You can’t understand this book. Scholars have poured over this for millions of hours. They cannot understand this book. This book is SPIRITUAL, these are spiritual words, these are symbols. They are all the same. It’s not as hard as we thought when God opens it up, it takes on a simplicity.
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May not be time yet:
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
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May not be time yet:
Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
I don't feel wise enough to understand all these things.
10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
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Revelation is not for the young in spirit.
Only Jesus can unlock the meanings in that Book to one of His individual Elect.
All of the symbols in that Book are explained in other Scriptures.
Line upon line, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.
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I found this thread, where Kat expounds on Danial 12:9:
Dan 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
v. 9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
v. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
There it says "the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end," but in Revelation it says "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand." So we can begin to see when or what time is this speaking of.
Heb 9:26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
v. 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
During the old covenant times it was not the time of the end, because that wasn't until Jesus brought the new covenant "in these last days" and "last times for you who through Him believe in God"... the time of the elect. For all believers down through the centuries, Christ's sacrifice is bringing the last times for those in Him... the elect are being prepared during their individual lives ever since Christ came, living and then waiting in their grave until Christ returns. Then their life will continue at their resurrection into the kingdom.
So that's why the saying in Revelation are open for all the elect in the new covenant times. And that's why it was "closed up and sealed till the time of the end" from the OT prophets and patriarchs... they could not be elect, because it started with Christ's first appearing in the flesh. Nor could they understand what had not happened yet.
The believers can understand these things now because we have the knowledge of the truth. The church believes those verses you referred to are saying that a person fate is sealed at the death... if a person was unjust or filthy, they would continue in that state forever, as would the righteous. Only a blessed few have their eyes open to these truths now.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16649.msg150850.html#msg150850
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I found this thread, where Kat expounds on Danial 12:9:
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So that's why the saying in Revelation are open for all the elect in the new covenant times. And that's why it was "closed up and sealed till the time of the end" from the OT prophets and patriarchs... they could not be elect, because it started with Christ's first appearing in the flesh. Nor could they understand what had not happened yet.
The believers can understand these things now because we have the knowledge of the truth. The church believes those verses you referred to are saying that a person fate is sealed at the death... if a person was unjust or filthy, they would continue in that state forever, as would the righteous. Only a blessed few have their eyes open to these truths now.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16649.msg150850.html#msg150850
I must not be a believer because I cannot say much with certainty about hidden end times facts.
But if this is known to the elect now then it must have also been known to the elect for the last 2000 years. There must have been many thousands of people with all this understanding in 2000 years.
You'd think a few of them would have written it down somewhere? The printing press was invented in the 1400's. Should be more than a few books don't you think?
And YouTube should have more than a few inspired videos? We've had the Internet for over thirty years.
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Good points Dennis.
Thinking on all Ray was inspired to teach, he didn't feel writing a commentary on Revelations was more important than other things he wanted to cover. If it had been important to God for all these things to be revealed, he would have made it so. Just my thoughts.
Ray, I already ask you a question in another e-mail which I hope you answer.But a comment is, I,d like to see you write a thing on how and what the book of revelation is in your view and what will happen and what it all means by your view of it. It may help alot of people see some truth for once as compared to what their being taught in churches now. Like is the symboles literal or synbolic,etc.Seals,Trumpets,bowls,beasts,number of the beast,etc.I believe you get the idea. I think you should write it! Thanks,God Bless,Jeff
Dear Jeff:
I have had some ask me to explain Revelations to them in an email. I will be covering portions of Revelations in my Lake of Fire Series. As for a verse by verse commentary, that will have to wait awhile, as I have other more important subjects to yet cover.
God be with you,
Ray
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3623.msg27087.html#msg27087
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that will have to wait awhile, as I have other more important subjects to yet cover.
Speaks for itself.
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I found this thread, where Kat expounds on Danial 12:9:
...
So that's why the saying in Revelation are open for all the elect in the new covenant times. And that's why it was "closed up and sealed till the time of the end" from the OT prophets and patriarchs... they could not be elect, because it started with Christ's first appearing in the flesh. Nor could they understand what had not happened yet.
The believers can understand these things now because we have the knowledge of the truth. The church believes those verses you referred to are saying that a person fate is sealed at the death... if a person was unjust or filthy, they would continue in that state forever, as would the righteous. Only a blessed few have their eyes open to these truths now.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,16649.msg150850.html#msg150850
I must not be a believer because I cannot say much with certainty about hidden end times facts.
But if this is known to the elect now then it must have also been known to the elect for the last 2000 years. There must have been many thousands of people with all this understanding in 2000 years.
You'd think a few of them would have written it down somewhere? The printing press was invented in the 1400's. Should be more than a few books don't you think?
And YouTube should have more than a few inspired videos? We've had the Internet for over thirty years.
But there are many books and many YouTube videos by people who believe they are the elect. How do you know if they are the elect? How do you know you are one? Every person in every denomination in every faith believes they are among the chosen.
When it comes to my faith, the bottom line for me is.. would I ever be satisfied with someone else’s interpretation anyways? I say no, lest I fall into the trap of following a man by esteeming his interpretation over the voice of the spirit within myself.
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But there are many books and many YouTube videos by people who believe they are the elect. How do you know if they are the elect? How do you know you are one? Every person in every denomination in every faith believes they are among the chosen.
But that's the point - According to that post you should be led to the truth if you are one of the elect.
The believers can understand these things now because we have the knowledge of the truth.
"Now?" It may not be the "end times" yet.
I'm always reminded what my (now dead) mother-in-law said: "Everyone thinks they are living in the end times."
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Hi Dennis,
Did the apostles know - in their day that they were of the elect? It seems hard to believe that they were in doubt of their future when they even had contact with The Messiah Himself and you would think that the topic would have come up to assure them that they were OK, as part of the first resurrection. Where as for me I do not know.
As for the end times- I have been looking at this issue for some 50 years - but I think we are getting closer - that is all I can say and as far as I will go without making a total fool of my self!!!
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1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
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amen to that last post Dennis.
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Hi Dennis,
I am not trying to debate this topic with you - so do not misunderstand as it is so easy to do when texting. And in no way do I intend any abrasiveness toward you. I just want to understand a very important salvation/resurrection concept that affects us all.
So in your studies Dennis what would a definition of a castaway be, so in this case the text ICor. 9:27, Paul could avoid being one at ALL COSTS?!!! Would Jesus have given him (Paul) His close and dear apostle this information. Just like when you were taught to drive a car - that going up over a curb and driving down a crowded sidewalk was a, CASTAWAY driving infraction, BIG TIME. We all know, no driver of an automobile is perfect just like Paul points out that no human is perfect in Romans ch 7-8. We all realize as well that God is in control and all human works and events are predetermined and controlled completely by Him.
But what the issue here is, can a human or could Paul determine and understand behavioral limits like being a castaway. Just like driving down a crowded sidewalk with your automobile? Was Paul privileged in His close relationship with Jesus to grasp such a principle?
John
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I did not take it as a debate, sorry if it came across like that.
Concordant:
1Co 9:27 but I am belaboring my body and leading it into slavery, lest somehow, when heralding to others, I myself may become disqualified."
Strongs Castaway definition: G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
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Hi Dennis,
Did the apostles know - in their day that they were of the elect? It seems hard to believe that they were in doubt of their future when they even had contact with The Messiah Himself and you would think that the topic would have come up to assure them that they were OK, as part of the first resurrection. Where as for me I do not know.
As for the end times- I have been looking at this issue for some 50 years - but I think we are getting closer - that is all I can say and as far as I will go without making a total fool of my self!!!
Hi Johnny,
None of us can know with certainty if we are one of God's elect, and for me that is a blessing☺
When I think of Paul, and his experience on the road to Damascus, his miraculous transformation is a testimont to how God wills all in our lives, as to what our purpose will be in his plans. When he wills something for us it will not be from our own doing, but we can see and feel him working in us as Paul surely did. Maybe these scriptures will help.
Paul wrote this letter to the church at Philippi, while he was in prison.
Philippians 3 New International Version (NIV)
3 Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision,we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a]Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to knowChrist—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
It sure looks like Paul understood because it was God's will for him.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Acts 20:22-24
22 “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
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2 Peter 1:21
For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human,
spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Being carried along, persuaded, inspired, compelled, made by the Holy Spirit
is the only way to understand the deep symbolic mysteries of God.
In Christ Pamela
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Hi Pamela and Wanda,
It is a challanging and humbling topic about who are the elect. I think the consenseus is that there are doubts as to those that will be chosen to be resurrected at Jesus's return as His elect? And certainly we are mostly convinced that Pamela will not be chosen - that is for sure! She is such a bad women that there is little hope for her.
Before I go any further with my bad sense of humor - I truthfully must say that I have had the honour to meet Pamela as she lives very close to me here in Nova Scotia , Canada. I really wanted to have a friend who had similiar understandings of the Holy Texts and God gave me The One and Only Musterseed. She is a great human being with a lot of wisdom and sincerity.
So this brings up the subject and good question as to who would be resurrected if not the apostles?! Who else was put throught such a hugh amount of trails and they got the word out there in text form for all of us today. And when you meet someone like The Musterseed who is truly a beautiful person with her own trails she is overcoming - doing a great job - why would she not make it? I just wanted those that are reading this thread not to consider it a debate but just looking at this topic to see perhaps that the great sacrifice the apostles made were maybe motivated by the realization and hope of their resurrection.
Johnny
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Interesting question Johnny, because I had just finished reading an older thread I thought you might find helpful. It is chock full of spiritual wisdom on this very subject.
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3957.0.html
Nice sense of humor by the way, and I completly agree with you about our sweet Pamela, she is a wonderful blessing.
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God knows who His Elect are. The Scriptures say He selected them before creation, and they are not going to change.
But in the larger sense, it does not matter. God is going to save everyone. No one will be left out.
God is not a respector of persons. He loves all of His kin.
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Your too funny John. Thanks for the kind words, you too Wanda.
When I first joined the forum I thought everyone here was the Elect and who knows
what Is in store for all of us. Like JFK said, God knows.
All Praise and Glory to Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. All eyes on Him. Pamela
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Hi Wanda and Pamela and John etc. etc.
The thing that I choose to focus upon in this discussion is that God doesn't make mistakes and God doesn't fail in carrying out His will.
So IF you or I am one of the elect then it doesn't matter whether we cooperate fully with God or not. Our will power is not the crux of the matter.
It is not about us or what we do or how well we do it. If we miss the mark a little bit God will finish the job. God will finish His work in us!
So then, for the time being, in my own heart and mind, I am not concerned and don't worry over things that are in God's capable hands.
PLUS I'm just too old at this point in my life to try to figure out more than God has given me to understand.
I get up in the morning, have my coffee and chat with my better half for a couple of hours then sit back to meditate on all my concerns until I fall asleep in my big recliner and then I wake up and go to the Gym for my exercise and to watch all the youngsters build muscles and embarrass me by comparison.
Life is too much fun to worry over spilt milk.
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I'm at work and don't have esword with me, but there is a very comforting portion of Scripture that says a lot about how we can "know" the answer to this question. It's all about growing in love. I can tell you--this is either happening or it isn't. And there ain't no faking it.
Beyond that, He gives "power" to become children of God even to those that believe on His name. How does a person believe on a name?
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Beyond that, He gives "power" to become children of God even to those that believe on His name. How does a person believe on a name?
I've asked that question many times myself Dave.
Ray talks about it a little near the end of this video: https://youtu.be/nyw60TBhQJo (https://youtu.be/nyw60TBhQJo)
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Can it be this simple, or am I not seeing the deeper meaning?
For me, it's what the name represents and the power of the one who gave it. But mostly I associate the name with great love.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Acts 4:12
There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”
John 5:43 I have come to you in My Father’s name…
John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name…
John 17:11 Holy Father, you have given me your name…
John 17:26 And I have declared to them Your name…
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Hi Wanda,
That was a good site from KAT focused on the plight of the apostles. What they had to face physically and emotionally was without equal. And perhaps this information in a way helps to support the relevance of a first resurrection for the apostles. It is hard to imagine that they would not be in the first resurrection. Question is, did they know this while they were alive - or was it important to them. Maybe they were so mission orientated that was not part of their thinking at the time. Although Paul said that he wanted above all things to be part of the OUT-Resurrection (I forget the text number).
But for the rest of us Romans 7 and 8 is more what we experience. Although Paul referred to himself as a wretched man at his core, Rom 7:24. And that there was, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the DISIRE to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out," Rom 7:18. We see here in everyone of us how our actions because of our sinful nature are TAINTED with imperfection - and that is why we need a Messiah. I have never met a perfect human being. Although I accept Jesus as being perfect and without sin because- He had the power without limit to do so from His Father.
In the resurrection it seems we will be putting on incorruption (only at that time) as a very necessary step to our change I Cor 15:42. I myself - am not looking for any high position. Having age lasting life and having friends like you people would be fantastic. We will have some great conversations, indeed! But the apostles are without question slated for the greatest positions although they will be positions of servitude. IMHO
Johnny
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Hi Wanda,
I just missed your reply 27 - that is certainly the key to all things is the virtue of LOVE I Cor 13. Great Stuff!!!
Johnny
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Jesus is perfect and without sin because He is Almighty God.
His name in Hebrew is Yahweh, which is the third person singular of the verb "to be". It means "He is coming". When He comes, He brings salvation.
The Apostles may or may not be the greatest in the Kingdom. Jesus will decide. Jesus said the first will be last and the last will be first.
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Hi John from Kentucky,
I thought Jesus had His Father to help Him as Jesus could do nothing WITHOUT HIS FATHER - John5:19, John5:30 - I am confused!
Johnny
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Johnny, what Paul says in 1 Corenthians 4 (whole chapter) but not included; pretty much states his case about how he views himself and salvation.
4 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
9For it seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage of the world—right up to this moment.
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Hi Wanda,
So well pointed out by you what Paul's perspective was on his commission. The summation is at the end when God evaluates all these things. They were truly a sacrifice for us all - all people!!! Great insight Wanda!!!
Johnny
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Hi Wanda,
So well pointed out by you what Paul's perspective was on his commission. The summation is at the end when God evaluates all these things. They were truly a sacrifice for us all - all people!!! Great insight Wanda!!!
Johnny
Such humility Johnny. It's enough to make me cry. I can't believe we will one day speak with these loving brothers. Hope is a beautiful thing.
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Hi Wanda and Pamela and John etc. etc.
The thing that I choose to focus upon in this discussion is that God doesn't make mistakes and God doesn't fail in carrying out His will.
So IF you or I am one of the elect then it doesn't matter whether we cooperate fully with God or not. Our will power is not the crux of the matter.
It is not about us or what we do or how well we do it. If we miss the mark a little bit God will finish the job. God will finish His work in us!
So then, for the time being, in my own heart and mind, I am not concerned and don't worry over things that are in God's capable hands.
Great perspective Bob.
With age and God's truth, comes peace, joy and contintment. Who could ask for anything more.
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a comment, if i may chime in. within the past year, or so, i have come to accept that to be, is to be blessed. it does not mean that our experience may not be without trouble. an example, in the past five years i have lost my site (2014), developed severe GI issues (2015), lost part of my right foot (2016), severely fractured my left foot, ruptured my left achilles tendon, nearly lost my left foot due to a flesh eating bacteria (2017, and am still fighting to keep it), nearly died from critically low hemoglobin, and been diagnosed with congestive heart failure, likely a result of the activity dealing with the flesh eating bacteria (2018). i have become isolated from family and friends over one thing or another, and have had my reputation in many spaces trashed. within all of this, The Father's mercy abounds. it strikes me that, if He has given us the breath of life, He will become all in all with us, and that means every body. those that He designates for sonship have a special place in His economy, that is for certain. it has nothing to do with us, it is all of Him, but whether we are so designated or not, to have been given the opportunity to be is such a blessing. it will be unveiled, and when it is unveiled, all will bow at the dais of The Creator for His mercy, His compassion, His wisdom, His power...
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Eph.3:16:17
I pray that out of His glorious riches He May strengthen you with power through His Spirit
In your inner being so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. and I pray that you
being rooted and established in Love, May have power together with all the Lords Holy people
to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the Love of Christ and to know this Love that surpasses knowledge— that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
Eph.6:24
Grace to all you Love our Lord Jesus Christ with an undying Love.
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Hi yello62,
That is an incredible story for a life experience that is full of a lot of stress. But this story as well as all of our stories has a good ending, nothing in this physical life has a really good ending. Only with the exception of the resurrection.
Your sir are a true brave hero - to hang in there with the strength you have. You have said well "The Father's mercy abounds"!!! It is all of Him - he puts us through so much in this fragile physical state. What you have been taught by this experience is breath taking. We are clay in His hands - all this so humbling in a healthy way! Look at the encouraging words of Paul - here II Cor chapter 4:1~17.
John
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Johnny,
I often times hesitate to tell folks my story because I don't want any misunderstanding. As I tell folks, I don't want to under emphasize the difficulty, because I do not want to diminish that which The Father is doing, nor do I want to over emphasize the difficulty, because I do not want make things worse than they are and put the emphasis on me. They are bad, to be certain, but this experience is intentional, for me, and for those around me. We have been designated, and my place in His economy requires this to occur. Trust me when I tell you that I have been pressed during this, but, He has always provided that which is sufficient to endure. I am grateful for the mercy that has been extended, and look forward to the time when we are no longer in the corruptible... MAN, do I look forward to that time :).
Tony
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Hi Tony,
An experience like yours is an encourgment to others I believe. Maybe you could share your story in Testimonies, it is the good that comes from such experiences that matters.
I posted my own for no other reason, but to bring glory to God. My experience humbled me in a way nothing else could. When it was behind me, this scripture spoke to me in ways I'm still grateful for.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
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Wanda,
I will do that. Just left the office of an orthopedic surgeon, and I have more to add.
Tony