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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: keys2heaven on March 14, 2007, 05:05:19 PM

Title: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: keys2heaven on March 14, 2007, 05:05:19 PM
I renounced my membership in the Nazarene church a little over a month ago. One of those reasons is that I don't agree with the doctrine of tithing that is a staple of many, if not all, of today's big denominations. Our family still attends and, as of yet, have not felt the need to physically leave. The church has a website that includes discussion boards. One of the members started talking about tithing and soon the pastor gave his views on tithing. I know this has been covered extensively and please don't flame me for posting this. I'm posting what the pastor stated in reference to tithing below. He does mention some things that I don't think Ray covered in his series and wanted feedback on this. I'll highlight these areas in red to make it easier to see and save space in this post.


<<BEGIN>>
I want to share with all of you a little more background about giving/tithing etc.

Both Old and New Testament contains numerous teachings about tithing, sacrificial giving and offerings.  On more than one occasion, Israel neglected to tithe and the Levites left the sanctuary for the fields in order to support themselves by tilling the soil as a result the sanctuary fell in disrepair.

Reforms took place under Hezekiah ( 2 Chronicales 31:5, Nememiah (Neh. 13:12 and Malachi (Mal. 3:8, 10) so that the people gave their proper tithe, the sanctuary was restored and the priests and Levites were able to give themselves wholly to the Law of the Lord once again.  

At the heart of tithing is the idea that the earth is the Lord and all that is in it. (Ps. 24:1)  By giving a tithe we acknowledge the Lord's ownership of the land and produce.  Thus Judah was robbing God (Mal. 3:8-10) not of material things since they already belonged to God but of the recognition that indeed these things were His exclusively.  in that thought - when one does not give what God has already given them - - - it is failure on our part to give God credit, praise and honor for providing for us.  Our job, our health, our home, etc. all come not from ourselves but from God.  Tithing is seen as a means of saying thanks to God for His generosity (Gen. 28:20-22)

In reality the giving of tithe helps involves all of us in God's redemptive work. 

Some conclude that because the word tithe is not found in the New Testament - - that this means one does not have to give.  What is interesting is that as Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount examined the Law - he raised the bar or standard if you will - in each circumstance.  He often said - you have heard it said - but I say to you - - - and then He shared the kingdom principle.  This certainly seems to me to be a strong indication that Jesus woudl not advocate a reduction in one's acknowledgement of our thanks to God or our need of being a part of God's redemptive work in the universe.

Today we give

Because we are aware that we are God's slave or servant (Romans 6:16, I Cor. 7:22, Eph. 6:6, I Peter 2:16.

Because our possessions are not our own or to be used as we may like. ( I Cor. 6:20)

Because as a good steward we are charged with handling the master's goods and that we will have to give an account for what we have done with what we have been given.

We also give because of the model of Jesus ( 2 Cor. 8:9) and the power of God's Spirit within us. 

As a result the giving that comes today is not to be done with reluctance - - or by feeling forced to give - - -nor is it limited to one's tithe - - Rather, it is to be done cheerfully, voluntarily, systematically and with open-ended generosity (I Cor. 16:1; 2 Cor. 9:6-9)
<<END>>

Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on March 14, 2007, 05:54:50 PM
keys2heaven,

  Thanks for sharing this with us.  I really enjoyed reading it.  I am confused at the end of it though and wanted some clarification.  I have no problems with offerings, but is this advocating tithes or not?

  Thanks.

  Sincerely,




  Anne C. McGuire
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: keys2heaven on March 14, 2007, 06:02:15 PM
I can't and won't post all of the discussion here. But, yes, the posts leading up to this were all on the topic of how "tithing" allowed God to bless them and wa a test of their faith. I read the pastor's post as reinforcement for the doctrine of "tithing". I am bothered by his statement of tithes being in effect before the Levites started taking tithes. Can someone explain what he is saying in this?

There also seems to be a lot of assumptions in his post. He mentions this "What is interesting is that as Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount examined the Law - he raised the bar or standard if you will - in each circumstance.  He often said - you have heard it said -but I say to you - - - and then He shared the kingdom principle". O.K., but how does this relate to tithing? I see no supporting scripture to back up this statement as it relates to tithing. Is this just his opinion?

So, is this the philosophy of most pastors; to use scripture out of context and then give generalized opinions in order to reinforce unscriptural concepts?
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on March 14, 2007, 06:06:11 PM
keys2heaven,

  Thanks for that clarification.  That really helped.  Thanks for the promptness that you showed in posting this post.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: hillsbororiver on March 14, 2007, 07:05:33 PM

So, is this the philosophy of most pastors; to use scripture out of context and then give generalized opinions in order to reinforce unscriptural concepts?


Yep.

Everything "Christianity" teaches is out of context with;

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they
are life
.

The following is from 'Tithing Is Unscriptural Under The New Covenant'

Objections to my paper range from simply quoting the prophet Malachi sent to the priests and nation of Israel: "Wherein have we robbed Thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse…." While others who can find absolutely no Scriptural authority for Christians to tithe, invent clever little doctrines like this:

"Tithing was a form of worship to God, and since we still worship God, we must still tithe."

I will answer this one in one sentence: Since burnt offerings were a form of worshiping God, and since we still worship God, must we still offer burnt offerings to God? ... Ridiculous.

Part II of this paper covers the Malachi prophecy more thoroughly as it concerns the subject of tithing.


http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on March 14, 2007, 07:19:48 PM
Joe,

  I really, really, enjoyed reading the paper on tithing by Ray.  That was truly a liberating paper, I never feel guilty that I do not tithe, becuase I could not afford to tithe.  I cannot tell you how many times, my heart would sink becuase I could not afford to tithe and I did not tithe.  I never felt so judged when week after week the plate would be passed, and I would pass it down, and feel my fellow congretants judging me and not thinking that I was in God's will and such.  It finally wore me down so much, I would leave during the tithing part of the service and if I had to stay in the room, I would not touch the plate but refuse to take it.  I had never felt so much shame and guilt in my life when the pastor would repeat and say, how can you expect blessings in your life, when you do not give to God week after week, and this would be said with him looking into my eyes and shaking his head.  I never felt so embarassed when called down like that.

  I am so thankful to Ray's paper, becuase I am liberated and now can enjoy giving offerings when I can.  God knows my heart and it is so nice to stand no longer condemned for my inability and unwillingness to tithe.

  My heart goes out to the elderly and poor people who are tithing so much and to see themselves in their bondage choking out their very life makes me thankful that I never descended that far.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Jennie on March 14, 2007, 09:16:54 PM
I think it is the place of your heart in the giving instead of thinking about the "have to" of tithing. You can give in many ways not just money.
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: gmik on March 14, 2007, 09:44:32 PM
Exactly.  Why do people think we aren't a giving, loving people, because we don't "tithe".  That doesn't mean we don't help when we can.  I used to have the awful mindset of after we have given our tithe, buddy, I am not giving another red cent!!  My hubby's aunt needed some help, monthly, but it was too hard.  Now, we give her cheerfully and lovingly every month.  Guess what??  Now we have an actual relationship w/ her-phone calls, mail etc.  We even went to see her over Christmas and normally we would not have.

One of my awful memories is that my father in law couldn't afford a "nice" nursing home when he got alzheimers. With the money we gave to those bling-bling pastors we could have helped HIM out!  What a blindness we had in babylon.

I just got an e mail from someone very close to me accusing me of being a lazy, ne'er do well, since I don't believe in tithing!!  They have no clue what I do or don't do-just assuming that no tithing equals no giving!  I am not responding to them at this time. We'll see.  One time I would have been so hurt!!!  Now, I feel bad for them and pray that God will lead them.
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: rrammfcitktturjsp on March 14, 2007, 09:48:10 PM
Gena,

  Ahh, that's a cute picture.  How sweet.

  Sincerely,



  Anne C. McGuire
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: gmik on March 14, 2007, 10:01:49 PM
Thanks! :D
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Kat on March 15, 2007, 01:35:11 AM

Hi keys2heaven,

Quote
I am bothered by his statement of tithes being in effect before the Levites started taking tithes. Can someone explain what he is saying in this?

Gen 4:3  And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD.
Gen 4:4  Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering,

These offering might be the precursor to the tithe he was referring to.  But it you will take notice that these offering were of the produce and flock.

I have the first 2 scripture that were in your post, and all others I could find to show what the tithe was in the OT.  Something that you will notice here, in these scripture that show what should be tithed, is it's produce of the land and of the flocks.  All scripture that refer to tithes is talking about produces and flocks, and none ever memtion money as a tithable commodity.

2Ch 31:5  And as the command spread, the sons of Israel brought plentifully of the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field. And the tithe of all things they brought in abundance.

Neh 13:12  And all Judah brought the tithe of the grain and the new wine and the oil into the treasuries.

Lev 27:30  And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD's.

Lev 27:32  And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock,
Deu 12:17  You may not eat within your gates the tithe of your grain or your new wine or your oil, of the firstborn of your herd or your flock, of any of your offerings which you vow, of your freewill offerings, or of the heave offering of your hand.

Deu 14:22  "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

2Ch 31:5  As soon as the commandment was circulated, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of grain and wine, oil and honey, and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything.

Neh 13:12  Then all Judah brought the tithe of the grain and the new wine and the oil to the storehouse.

And one from the NT even, still speaks of the produce.

Luk 11:42  "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

The other scripture he used is simply stating to bring in the tithe, which would have been well known to be of the land and flocks, as the scripture prove.

The tithe in the churches is the preacher's bread and butter and of course they have been taught it is right and believe it should be your money and will push their manmade tradition with gusto.

Hope this helps  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: keys2heaven on March 15, 2007, 12:48:07 PM
Thanks Kat,

So, when the pastor says "By giving a tithe we acknowledge the Lord's ownership of the land and produce", how can he or any church rationalize that by giving a tithe in the form of money we are acknowledging the Lord's owership of the land and produce when those tithes were on "land and produce". It seems like a huge leap to me. When did it become popular to make this assumption and why do pastors or any church say things like this. It's a huge guilt trip to put on people. So, if members don't tithe but "give" they aren't acknowleding the Lord?
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Kat on March 15, 2007, 01:07:56 PM

Hi keys2heaven,

I think you are seeing it now.  It's so messed up.  The tithe was of the produce of the land, but the church has just converted that over to your money, how convenient for them.   But the scripture gives no such example of that. 
Now you can give an offering, but that is your own decision how you spend your money.
That would just be supporting the church and their false religion to me.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: GODSown1 on March 19, 2007, 10:06:46 PM
Hey alL
        WelL! to me GOD doesnt want ur money! He wants ur Heart! & Soul, to me He just wants us to LOVE! Him & all others as We would want for ourselves, I really beleave that GOD! doesnt want our money He can get that wheneva He wants, well thats my Opinion n e way lol!
                           muchLOVE!! Pera

 I dont like it wen people place GOD in a class, HE is the Creator!!! & He says what He wants in return LOVE!! & all to LOVE all
    Takecare!!!!
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: GODSown1 on March 19, 2007, 10:11:36 PM
Hi Anne
           To me U answered it, GOD! isnt a GOD! that will make U feel as U have for not giving Hes the GOD of LOVE!

    muchLOVE!!!! Pera
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: GODSown1 on March 19, 2007, 10:16:40 PM
Hi Gena
          Yep U said it also GOD! would perfur U to Give to the needie, NOT! to a big massive building so that it get bigger lol! Well again thats just my Opinion haha!
                                             muchLOVE!!! Pera
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: gmik on March 19, 2007, 10:55:22 PM
Pera, yes that is just what the world needs....yet another million dollar church-building.....NOT!!

To care for the widows and orphans is true religion!!
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: GODSown1 on March 20, 2007, 01:18:00 AM
lol! Amen to that sister!
much muchLOVE!! Pera
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Bev on March 20, 2007, 04:18:35 AM
Quote
I never felt so judged when week after week the plate would be passed, and I would pass it down, and feel my fellow congretants judging me and not thinking that I was in God's will and such.

This is how organized christianity operates. By peer pressure and by putting you on the spot. I believe this is robbing folks, because you're manipulating them to do things against their will. 2 Timothy 1:7 - For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. Making one feel self conscious among peers I believe is putting you in fear or insecurity. They're clever cats out here.   
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Bev on March 20, 2007, 04:23:14 AM
Quote
I just got an e mail from someone very close to me accusing me of being a lazy, ne'er do well, since I don't believe in tithing!!

This question is for everybody because I honestly need to know. Did Jesus or any of the apostles ever believe in or require a tithe?
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: josh on March 20, 2007, 10:33:52 AM
Bev,

This might portion of "Tithing is Unscriptural Under the New Testament Parts II" may help in answering your question... you can find the rest of the paper on the main page of Bible-truths.com...

JESUS CAME TO FULFILL THE LAW, NOT TO RELIVE THE LAW

Christians believe that Jesus came to FULFILL the Law of Moses by RELIVING the law of Moses in His own personal life. He assuredly did not. This is an entire study of itself, however, I want to prove to you from the Scriptures that Jesus did not concern Himself with Tithes and Taxes, and restrictions of the Law of Moses.

THE TEMPLE TAX


Not only did Jesus not tithe, because He was a carpenter and carpenters were not obligated to tithe, but neither did He pay the Temple tax, which was commanded by the Law of Moses for all men in Israel to pay annually. Of the 613 laws of Moses, this is Law # 404:

"This they shall give, every one that passes among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs): an half shekel shall be the offering of the Lord.

Every one that passes among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the Lord.

The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls.

And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle [in Jesus’ time, to the Temple] of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the Lord, to make an atonement for your souls" (Exodus 30:13-16).

Jesus Christ did not pay this yearly tax to the Temple, for the same reason that Jesus did not keep the Sabbath day commandment. Jesus Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, (Matt. 12:8). And likewise, Jesus is not only Lord of the Temple, Jesus is the Temple,

(John 2:19). And, furthermore, Jesus was the Lord to Whom Israel gave the half shekel as an offering. Jesus does not need an atonement for His soul; Jesus Christ is the Atonement, (Rom. 5:9-11).

Notice this remarkable story of the only time the temple tax came up in the ministry of Jesus. Most Christians will never hear an explanation of these verses as long as they live! These verses are highly incriminating to those who teach the tithing of money to the Church:

"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Does not your master pay tribute [Greek: ‘pay the double drachma’ which was the exact amount of the annual Temple tax]?

He says, Yes [Peter was embarrassed and apparently not honest with his answer]. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him [Greek: ‘prophthano,’—‘to get an earlier start of,’ ‘forestalls’ or ‘anticipated him’], saying, What do you think, Simon? Of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute [taxes]? Of their own children [sons] or of strangers?

Peter said unto Him, of strangers. Jesus said unto him, THEN ARE THE CHILDREN FREE.

Notwithstanding, LEST WE SHOULD OFFEND THEM, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first comes up; and when you have opened his mouth, thou shall find a piece of money [Gk: ‘statar’ –the exact temple tax for two]: that take and give unto them for Me and thee" (Matt. 17:24-27).

What an amazing story! What a telling teaching truth from Scriptures we have here! No wonder most Christians have never heard this Scripture explained in Church.

The reason Peter said "yes" to the tribute collector is because it was embarrassing to Him to say, "NO, my master does NOT pay temple tax." It was such a small amount of money (less than a dollar). But now Peter has to go into the house give Jesus an appraisal of what just happened. Jesus being merciful to Peter does not reprimand him for not being honest with the tribute collector, but rather, cuts him off [forestalls him] before he can speak and saves Peter the embarrassment.

The point is this: Jesus did not pay temple tax because Jesus is the King of the kingdom. And if the children are free, certainly the King Himself is free.

Might I add that, neither did Jesus stone or condone others to stone, the woman caught in the very act of adultery even thought the Law of Moses demanded it:

"And the man that commits adultery with another man’s wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer AND THE ADULTERESS SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH" (Lev. 20:10).

Now then, did Jesus come to "fulfill" this Law of Moses by living, teaching and carrying out that law? He surely did not. He rather said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." (John 8:7). If we are to believe that "fulfilling the law" of Moses can only be accomplished by living, teaching and enforcing the law of Moses, then something is wrong with that theory because Jesus obviously did NOT carry out many commands of the law of Moses in His own life!

The theologians have debased the New Covenant as being nothing more than the Old Covenant, with a few added twists. Jesus "fulfilled the law" not by adding a few spiritual twists to it, but by keeping a MUCH HIGHER SPIRITUAL LAW that actually contradicted much of the letter of Moses’ Law.

One doesn’t need a physical law of the letter chiseled in stone, to "keep the sabbath" when he has entered into "God’s SPIRITUAL REST" in his heart.

One doesn’t need a physical law of the letter to "swear by His name" when in his heart his desire is to "swear NOT at all."

One doesn’t need a physical law chiseled in stone telling him "thou shalt not commit adultery" when in his heart he no longer "even looks on a woman to lust after her."

One doesn’t need a physical law telling him to "HATE his enemies" when now in his very heart, he "LOVES his enemies."

For you newcomers to the world of theology, LOVE is lot different than just putting a spiritual twist on HATE. Not swearing at all is more than putting a spiritual twist on the commandment TO SWEAR. Am I going too fast for anyone?

And neither did Jesus take the commandment to "bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse" and spiritually twist it into "bring ye all the money into the pastor’s bank account."

And so what is it that Jesus is teaching us with regards to money? Simple, neither the king nor his children pay tax—any tax (including even Temple tax)! "…then are the children FREE." Need I remind anyone that we are the children of God’s kingdom? And neither our King, nor we, pay taxes or tithes to our own kingdom.

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He [Jesus] IS, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 1:17).

And so the reason… the only reason, that Jesus paid this tax was, "…lest we should offend them." Not because it was a LAW OF MOSES and Jesus had to keep the law of Moses, but only because, "…lest we should offend them."

Furthermore, where did Jesus get the money (the very small amount of money) to pay this temple tax so as to not offend them? From His own pocket? From the treasury held by Judas? From Peter’s house? No. He had God provide for it in a fish from the sea. Jesus did not even deign to pay this tax from His own money. And say, did you notice that Jesus paid for Himself and Peter only? He did not even pay for the other eleven.

Do you suppose we are sinning if we follow His steps by not tithing? Should we follow His steps, or commandments of the clergymen?

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that we should follow His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).[/color]

Hope this helps.

God's Peace.
Josh
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Jennie on March 20, 2007, 12:26:29 PM
I wonder how this life would be if we helped others instead of waiting for a church or the gov't or what have you to help those in need. If I knew that someone needed a coat and I had 2 if I gave it without question. How many coats can you wear at once? I think we as followers of Christ miss the mark on this one most always.
About the tithe.... a little bitty church I went to when I was young did take up an offering. The church was so little that 3 little churches shared the 1 preacher. He was a very good man, kind and loving to all. After the sermon he left to go to the next church. Then we had Sunday School or Bible study whatever you want to call it, a small group time. As most know we were very poor when I grew up. Poor to the point that I picked up grocery bags of pine cones from the yards of rich folks. They didn't want their yard men to mow over them and they would give you 10 cents for a bag full. I did this often to help buy food for us. My Momma always gave me and my brother a dimes each to put in the Sunday offering,. She gave 25 cents. One day one of the teachers( the one that taught my Momma's group, took the plate around the room. Momma put in her quarter and he started going offf on her in front of everybody. He was saying that she didn't love God the way she should and was making a mockery of the sacrifice of Jesus by saying that she must think the sacrifice wasn't worth more that a quarter. This went on and on for some time. Fortunately her brothers were there and got her out of there. My Momma was a gentle soul, quiet and easily embarrassed. She was giving all she could. The preacher wasn't at fault but I think that man surely was. The uncles got Momma out and went back and had words with this fellow. She never got over thst , it hurt her do bad.
That's not to say that everybody is like that man but many are and that is hurtful and wrong. Jennie
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Flipper on March 20, 2007, 02:26:28 PM
The best is when these pastors bring up the Malachi verses "How ye rob God . . . in tithes and offerings"   

I wonder how many have flipped back to chapter 2 to see just WHO God was addressing!



     
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: keys2heaven on March 20, 2007, 06:26:24 PM
I had to sing with the praise team this past Sunday. My wife was running the powerpoint and lyrics from a room that overlooks the sanctamasium. When I was done singing, I went up and sat with her. The room is also used for recording of the services and a couple of the chuch members were in there helping with that. Anyway, to be truthful, I blanked through most of the sermon. But, when I looked up again, there were offering plates put around the edge of the platform. People were going up and putting yet more money in those plates. Mind you, the "offering" had already been taken.

Apparently, the sermon was about what our purpose is and related back to finishing up the new ministry center which has been 3 years in the works. I guess they still need $15,000 to finish up the building (furnish the inside). Of course, when they were building the new ministry center, the construction budget went over and they came to the congregation for that amount. Then, just last month, it was only $400 that they needed to finish, and they came to the congregation for that. Now this. The pastor ended his sermon by stating that if you feel led by God to give, then give. If you don't feel led by God, then don't give. How I truly dislike the public display of money giving.

In between services, I asked one of the members that was in the room working with recording how "tacky" I thought passing the plate was. I stated why not just put a drop box at the back door and people can drop off their offering on the way out. I said this to see what the response would be. She told me that they tried that once and nobody gave. I guess most parishoners are so conditioned to "passing the plate" that they don't know what to do if there is no plate.

On a side note. I wrote to one of the parishoners offline about the topic of tithing/giving that was being discussed on the chuch forums and led to this post. This individual stated that they had never heard a good excuse not to give/tithe. So, I gave them some info about the tithe as Ray teaches. Funny thing is that this person's father is the church treasurer. However, I never heard back from this person after writing to them.

Well, while I was sitting next to my wife after singing on Sunday, this individual's father comes up to where we were sitting to find me. I though "Oh boy, he must have been shown what I wrote and want to have word with me about tithing". Actually, he came up to complement me on singing and told me I needed to do some more solos, but it made me nervous. I still don't believe that was his real purpose. I wonder what he would have said if I was alone.

Oh well, the saga continues....
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Bev on March 20, 2007, 11:17:25 PM
In Medias Res,

Thanks. What you shared was truly a blessing. it prompted me into reading the rest of Ray's articles (both parts) on tithing. He is really sharp, and definitely being used by THE HOLY SPIRIT. I use to always wonder about Matthew 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Ray puts it in perfect perspective and now I can kind of understand why Jesus said in Luke 16:16 - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. Thank you much for sharing this with me. It truly has opened up my eyes to some things.

IN CHRIST,


Bev
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Flipper on March 21, 2007, 12:43:30 AM
Wow that is awesome!  I have been searching High and Low for that line of demarcation between LAW and GRACE

 
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: josh on March 21, 2007, 02:05:11 AM
My pleasure Bev. Glad to help anytime.
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: Bev on March 21, 2007, 10:23:56 AM
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Wow that is awesome!  I have been searching High and Low for that line of demarcation between LAW and GRACE.

Flipper, I'm not completely certain of what you're referring to but as far as grace is concerned Galatians 5:5 says - For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

THE SPIRIT speaks on this forum.
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: keys2heaven on March 27, 2007, 05:30:16 PM
Since posting this thread, the past two Sunday's have really led me to believe that God is getting my attention. Tithing has been a hot topic and, in fact, our assistant pastor came out and stated point blank to the congregation that he wanted to talk about the SCRIPTURAL basis for tithing.

I was walking off of the platform after singing with the praise group when I heard him say this. A part of me wanted to stop right there and state emphatically before the congregation that there is no such SCRIPTURAL basis for new testament believers to tithe. It amazing. Everything I once believed is a lie and I bought it...hook, line and sinker.

Another note. On Sunday evenings, we have "small groups". Kind of like an informal Bible study. The last one we attended, which was fall of last year was when I first discovered this site. I had just finished reading Ray's commentary on the myth of free will. It turns out that the lesson that evening talked exclusively about free will. I tried to put into words what I could gather from Ray's teachings. But, I ended up making a few people upset. They pulled out all of the typical rhetoric that Ray uses as examples in his lessons.

Well, my wife convinced me to go to our small group this last Sunday. I told her that she needed to understand that I have my own beliefs about certain things and that they don't line up with what most church doctrine's teach. I told her that if anything came up that I didn't believe in, then I would probably be very silent.

Wouldn't you know. We get there and the lesson is on FREE WILL. I couldn't believe it. It was like God was saying, "Ha! Got you good." and was causing the circumstances so that I WOULD have to speak up. Well, I did a much better job of presenting what Ray taught. There were a few heads that shook when I stated emphatically that I believe that there is no such thing as Free Will or Free Moral Agency or the like. It was a very lively conversation and I was able to use scriptures to start making my points. It was at that point that some people actually grew silent and opened up their Bible to make sure I was saying what the Bible said. I was.



I still need to read over all of this about a gazillion more times and thoroughly commit it to memory. I want to be able to instantly give an answer for any question or argument that could come up about free will. But, I want to thank Ray for doing SOOOOOOOOOO much of the ground work for simpletons like myself. I do owe Ray a huge debt of gratitude.
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: dogcombat on March 28, 2007, 11:02:51 AM
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It was at that point that some people actually grew silent and opened up their Bible to make sure I was saying what the Bible said. I was.

Once people start to actually READ their bibles, they would see a ton of honey flavored heresy being shoved down their throats by Christiandom's traditions.

Ches
Title: Re: Pastor's view on tithing
Post by: GODSown1 on March 29, 2007, 02:32:48 AM
Hey hows it keys2heaven,
                                   I just want to say to U, I know exactly what ur saying, especially the bit on U know the answer but! just dont really no how to put it, scripticially etc... Becoz I hav a new found friend say to me, "STOP" I dont want to hear anymore U are being Deceived! by Ray & whomeva follow the same teachings, I just replied, NO! U are being Deceived, But! I couldnt really Xsplain myself properly!, but we are still friends lol! becoz I LOVE him az a brother anyway as I know GOD! will lead him to the Truth sooner or later, & he was the guy that GOD used to guide me! to Him (from the darkness to the Light) aw! I was reading him the Hypocrites, Snakes one lol!, I just know!! to just keep strong, as its GODS Plan anyway!,
                                     muchLOVE!! Pera