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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Revilonivek on January 12, 2012, 06:57:59 PM
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I never noticed this till now. Paul referred Jesus as the great God and Saviour. Titus 2:13.
Thomas referred Jesus as Lord and God, John 20:28
I understand that..
so...my question is. if Jesus is the Father come down to Earth in a disguise, leading a life as a devoted follower of God. to help set an example for others to follow. doesn't this sound like hindu's belief that God sometimes come down as a follower of God to help guide others? as God incarnate as a follower of God?
My second question is this...scripture is clear that Jesus is the yahweh God of the old testament. why the brutality?approving of killing, rape of women and children of other tribes not of God. killing pregnant women, babies and young children. its not their fault. they were born in different cultures, destroyed towns and all inhabitants in it if one or two was practicing a different religion. and they treated women as property, ruling his people with an iron fist. very strict and demands blood of innocent animals to cover people's sin and soothe Gods anger and now Jesus rules with mercy and compassion in the new testament and He himself was the God of the old testament? Bible says he never changes but this is obvious he changed?
sorry about asking you guys these questions. they are weighing very heavy on my heart.
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I never noticed this till now. Paul referred Jesus as the great God and Saviour. Titus 2:13.
Thomas referred Jesus as Lord and God, John 20:28
I understand that..
so...my question is. if Jesus is the Father come down to Earth in a disguise, leading a life as a devoted follower of God. to help set an example for others to follow. doesn't this sound like hindu's belief that God sometimes come down as a follower of God to help guide others? as God incarnate as a follower of God?
My second question is this...scripture is clear that Jesus is the yahweh God of the old testament. why the brutality?approving of killing, rape of women and children of other tribes not of God. killing pregnant women, babies and young children. its not their fault. they were born in different cultures, destroyed towns and all inhabitants in it if one or two was practicing a different religion. and they treated women as property, ruling his people with an iron fist. very strict and demands blood of innocent animals to cover people's sin and soothe Gods anger and now Jesus rules with mercy and compassion in the new testament and He himself was the God of the old testament? Bible says he never changes but this is obvious he changed?
sorry about asking you guys these questions. they are weighing very heavy on my heart.
There was an email one time about this in where ray said, they are NOT easy to explain. I think he was studying the matter himself but don't quote me on this. I could be misrepresenting what ray said.
As for Jesus being His own Father, I don't think that's true. I just think that Jesus is really Jesus, that His Father is greater than Him, that He was created, that He has a beginning but His Father does not etc.. BUT in being the very image of God, The image of His Father, it makes Him the One God, one WITH God. This is how, after that long thread of "Will we ever see the Father" and after what I've learned and what Kat said, that I have reconciled the nature of the Father and the Son.
I'm sure someone else, who can probably quote ray on what you are asking, will come along and leave a timely answer. I think we all wonder about this issue... maybe ray will discuss this in his new paper if it ever comes out. lol
Those are my thoughts! Sorry I can't be of more help.
God bless,
Alex
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ok found the email I was referring about for you! Hope this helps a bit.
SRC: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13712.msg120625.html#msg120625
Hi Ray,
It's been awhile since I have emailed you so I hope your health
condition has improved or is at least tolerable.
Just a quick question/concern which I hope you will be able to help
me out with. This friend of mine, who is not a believer, sometimes in
conversation will bring up my faith. One topic I have had a hard time
defending is the Old Testament. I know God had some tough
commandaments which included some harsh and violent punishments on
people throughout the Old Testament. My friend would constantly quote
random scriptures in the Old Testament and say to me "you believe in a
God that would command this or do that?"
Ray, this is one area I haven't fully grasped enough to explain.
What happened in the Old Testament doesn't really hurt my faith but
how can I put it into prospective for him to understand?
Thank you Ray for whatever answer you can provide,
Your brother Matthew
Dear Matthew:
Thank you for your concern for my health. Actually it has gotten
considerably worse the past month. I can hardly walk now.
Concerning your "quick question," Matthew, I almost have to
chuckle. Your quick question is the single most difficult question
in all theology to answer. You say this is "one area that I haven't
fully grasped enough to explain." Matthew, there is not a teacher
or theologian on earth who has "fully grasped" this topic. No one
has an adequate answer for this question, and to even discuss
it would take fifty or a hundred pages. Certainly not something
that could be answered quickly in an email. I have some thoughts
on the subject, but nothing that I wish to discuss at this time. There
are times that we really do have to live by faith and not sight. Hope
you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello,Revilonivek
Trying to be of some help...So this is what I got.
Question:
1.Basically you are asking "HOW can God perform MIRACLES?" That really is the heart and core of your question--think about it. Obviously God can't die, that is why it was necessary for Jesus to "empty" Himself of His prior glories. But then you will ask: "But just how did He do that?" There are billions and billions of things that God has not yet told us,
Question:
2.Knowing "good and evil" is an essential part of "being like God," hence He
creates good and evil for our experience. Failure, futility, sin and death is a
part of the "knowledge of evil." It is necessary that we fail in order that we
may succeed. God did not complete his plan of "making man in His Own Image"
back in Genesis. It was merely the first stage. What we call "life" is God's
plan for "making manking into His Own Spiritual Image
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I can imagine why this troubles you. Maybe answering it is foolish, and I have no answer, but only some comments.
Jesus came as one of us-he was as much Mary's son as my son is to me. I never thought of him in 'disguise'.
In the O.T. its's taken me a while to understand that Jesus is the One relating to the people. And the sacrifice of animals laid the foundation for understanding Jesus as the Lamb of sacrifice.
What do we know about the nature of God? We know He is love. We know He is Soverign. We know His ways are far above our ways. We know He does not think as we think. In Job 38 God is speaking to Job and if he was a human being I'd say he was irritated. He said "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? All of Chapters 38 and 39 are a wonder of God and who He is and how this earth follows His plans. Then in Chapter 40 it reads, "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!". v8' "would you discredit my justice? Would you condem me to justify yourself? Finally in chap. 42, Job says to God, "Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
Remember that Job spoke those words when he was in great pain and great grief. Still, he had come to a place of praise.
So, I guess that's what I think. There are many things we don't know, and we have to trust Him.
Bless you and that little one in the picture. I love babies!
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I believe the precept of "First the Physical, Then the Spiritual" applies. I'm not handing out answers, but do some studying on the why's and wherefor's of the Law from the New Testament perspective.
Regardless of what we were raised/want to think...it's clear that God is in ultimate control of everything. There is no evil thing (and for the fourteenth time, I'm not talking about SIN, but EVIL) anywhere anytime that He has not done--directly or 'through others' in His sovereignty.
I look at the Old Testament in the same way I look at the world today. Why do these things continue to happen? The exception is, that 'these things' (the OT stories) happened as an example for believers. It is carnally minded to think we are to 'emulate' those practices literally and in the flesh today. The New Covenant is more than just a different set of Scriptures. There are PLENTY of people in this age who are still trying to live in that one. The New Covenant is Spiritual.
It is no less carnally-minded to think that the humanity God is creating is His image is off-limits to God in doing His work.
I've struggled mightily with this as well. All I can tell you is that the above is an much-abbreviated version of what I understand to date. The rest is just for me.
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I've struggled with it too many times to the point that I've just wanted to pack it in and say -- see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.
I guess it's like God's so bold to do that, you know? But see? That's precisely what makes God stand out above all the other gods.
That God takes full responsibility for all of that. "Hey! I did that!" Ya know? Wow.
He's not accountable to us. He doesn't answer to anyone. That's sometimes quite infuriating, yes? Yes!
I am personally in the process of attempting to learn to do what Ray said (like the way I worded that? lol).
He said this: I can see where people might be afraid of Him. I’m not afraid of Him anymore. I just feel, what’s the use, why be afraid of Him? He is what He is, I am what I am. I’m not going to be afraid of Him. I respect Him, I’m awe struck, but I’m not afraid, not ‘afraid.’
Is that not the coolest, boldest statement you've ever heard in the last -- well, since God began putting words in Jesus' mouth? Right?!!
After I heard that and reflected on it for a while one night, I felt my tense muscles relax a bit -- that experience was hard to forget. lol
Yeah, it's like, what's the use of being afraid? He's never gonna leave you or go some place else where we can't find Him! lol He is here to stay.
Is that what's at the heart of what's weighing heavily on you? I don't know. It was for me. It's like, 'Gee, since God did all those horrific things to those people and things, and I'm not anything grand or special, what's stopping Him from doing those same things to me or someone I love?'
Welp, God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Then, I remember thinking, wait a second, the bible doesn't tell us to think [or meditate or fix our minds] on that sad stuff, but rather on these:
Phil 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
That helps me.
Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens.... these are few of my favorite things...
...(Lah-dee-dahh and twiddle dee-dee) lol Well, you get what I'm saying.
1 Corinthians 13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. ... For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. ...
Luke 12:2 There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
You call all the ones that God killed "innocent" and some were innocent, He even said so ..somewhere...; however, we're instructed to judge..
...nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God. (1 Cor. 4:5)
Bottom line, we have to come to the point where the view of God restoring all to HEALTH (salvation) is what is at the forefront of our minds. We must (shall) be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Love and peace to you. :)
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if Jesus is the Father come down to Earth in a disguise, leading a life as a devoted follower of God. to help set an example for others to follow. doesn't this sound like hindu's belief that God sometimes come down as a follower of God to help guide others? as God incarnate as a follower of God?
Hi Revilonivek
Just a few thoughts : Belief can become RELIGION that creates followings not freedom, bondage not liberty, fear not love and darkness not light.
Man made reasoning's can make up long lines of beliefs and no actual believing...like rules and no faith, that can attract followings after man made leanings on limited understandings, fears and terrors. Take this example for instance
The Christian hell is a Christian hoax.
The Jewish hell is a Jewish hoax.
The Islamic hell is a Islamic hoax.
The Greek hell is a Greek hoax.
The Hindu hell is a Hindu hoax.
The Babylonian hell is a Babylonian hoax.
The Egyptian hell is an Egyptian hoax.
And every other hell of every other culture and religion on earth is a man-made HOAX! http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm
I see the parallel you draw, and likewise :) Humans like to follow someone, something, anything! lol They feel safe in numbers not singled out, one on One with God.
Your second question and reasoning's actually show how God defeats death. No matter what kind of death, death brings, God defeats death in all of deaths shapes, forms and features. It is death that becomes no more, not God. ;D Death is diminished to nothing, not God.
Mankind likes death. They worship death and they make death their objection to God and their judgement against God, is death.
For Christ Who is risen, Death is no more, is defeated and has no sting.
Death has no part of the Life that is Christ in you, who is raising you up.... :)
Arc
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Hi Denise,
My second question is this...scripture is clear that Jesus is the yahweh God of the old testament. why the brutality?approving of killing, rape of women and children of other tribes not of God. killing pregnant women, babies and young children. its not their fault. they were born in different cultures, destroyed towns and all inhabitants in it if one or two was practicing a different religion. and they treated women as property, ruling his people with an iron fist. very strict and demands blood of innocent animals to cover people's sin and soothe Gods anger and now Jesus rules with mercy and compassion in the new testament and He himself was the God of the old testament? Bible says he never changes but this is obvious he changed?
this is hard thing to accepted as the way that God in His perfect knowledge determined to do things. Let me give you an analogy, not a perfect, maybe not even a good one, but maybe it will help.
If I decide to make a dress and I cut out all the pieces and sew it together and then I have a dress to wear. But say the thread was faulty and when I wear it and move and put tension on the seams, they bust open. So the dress is no good for the purpose I made it, it can not be trusted to wear, because it keeps ripping open and will not cover me up.
So I take the dress and tear out all the seams, really destroy the dress and now it is a pile of fabric as it was before. But then I remake it, but this time I use good strong thread. So when it is finished I can wear it proudly with no fear that it will come apart.
Do you see what I'm saying, the comparison? Just like with the dress, all humanity will suffer death, before they can be remade.
God made mankind weak, evil even, we are not good. There is many ways that we prove this in the evil acts done to one another. So people suffer and die at the hands of one another all the time, it is a way we prove our evilness, that and countless other evil things we do. People are killed and die through some many terrible ways every day, that is true.
But there is a limit to what people can suffer, people die if there bodies are injured too much, they die and it's over. I mean that is in the design of human beings, we will only suffer to a certain degree and then we die. Now death is a scary thing for us all, but it will come to us all, that's for sure. The means that it comes is the worse part, but when it is over, that's it, no more suffering, just the sleep of death until the resurrection. So everybody has to go through this evil experience of life, then die. Well you say one death is worse than another. Okay, but the outcome is the same for all, death, the end of this life will come.
But then all that died will be raised and given a new body, but more importantly a new heart, the faulty/weak heart is gone and now they can be cleansed and made righteous.
The old faulty evil self that we have now, is a way to show us all that we are hopelessly weak and evil on our own without God's Spirit. We are doing a very good job of proving our faults (coming apart at the seams). But that is not the end, God will raise everybody back up and make it right. We must trust that He knows what He is doing.
Well that's a few thoughts I have on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Phil 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Bottom line, we have to come to the point where the view of God restoring all to HEALTH (salvation) is what is at the forefront of our minds. We must (shall) be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Excellent reminder, Gena. :) Whenever we start struggling and with "how God does things" we need to "redirect" our thinking.
René
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But there is a limit to what people can suffer, people die if there bodies are injured too much, they die and it's over. I mean that is in the design of human beings, we will only suffer to a certain degree and then we die. Now death is a scary thing for us all, but it will come to us all, that's for sure. The means that it comes is the worse part,
-Kat
Hi, Kat: I've seen you say this before, and it's so much more comforting a thought to know and believe we won't continue to suffer in dying / death as we were taught in church. Thank you for pointing that out.
The means by which it comes... ahh that's the scary part. If you see it coming, and it lingersss. Ughhh that thought just creeps me out. Like suffocating or whatever. Bleh. That's just the worst. But we don't know how we're going to die. We could die in our sleep and never see it coming. And I pray that's the way I die. Seriously. I just imagine that my death will be painless, instead of painful.
And the thought of a painful death sure makes for compassion towards other people in their dying states. Ya know? Unless you're Charles Manson or Jeffrey Dahmer.
The other thing about this topic is what a lot people are bothered by, including me:
Why does God work death in us this way? Why did He think it a good idea to make us weak and then kill us? It's like Ray said, It's a bizarre work God is doing. It's so bizarre.
And we can only dwell on that for so long before we start to go a little insane or get depressed and angry about it. And then as for me, personally, when I wasn't getting any answers that comforted me, I, like the majority of people if not all people, would go out and try to make myself feel better -- lift my own spirits, which always meant that I sinned/broke God's commands.
As for me, outside of eternal torment, there's only one thing worse than dying or death, and that's the thought that God could or never would change the way things or people are. I mean, say there was no death or major suffering in death and everyone just died peacefully in their sleep, there's still other things that can be just as tormenting that a person can go through, like mental suffering which can hurt so bad on an emotional level that people have literally thrown themselves in front of trains (happened in my old neighborhood about ten years ago) to escape that torment.
Whatever reason God chose to work death and weakness in us, it sure makes you go, huh? The church says, don't question, just accept it. But ya can't. We need answers and we need comfort and I think what you said, Kat, that there's only so much suffering in death, is about the most comforting thing I've read ever.
I'm rambling. Have a good Friday, evuhbody! Thankya, thankya ver'muchhh. ~Elvis the pelvis hehe
(I don't like the new emoticons. bleh. )
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Kat
that was very well written, IMO. truely we need it proven to ourselves, individually, and to the all of humanity, collectively, just how evil evil is. We all need to learn, see and understand, in ways that will leave permanent deep lessons, unforgetable lessons, esperiential lessons, that we will NEVER want to be evil again. At this time in Gods working with us there is nothing more important than this that God wants to deeply deeply forever teach and internalize in us. And it is so important that it must be EXPERIENCED, not just given in theory.
The wages have to be REAL. The pain has to be REAL. The effort has to be REAL. The consequences have to be REAL. Not part way. Not just half way. No full throttle, full bore. The depth of evil and height of goodness MUST be experienced to be learned.
We must also LEARN to LOVE righteousness and HATE HATE wickedness. HATE it. So here we are born, our very start in life, into loving sin, loving wickedness, because it so resonates with our inner beast, our selfish carnal nature. IT TAKES A LOT FOR US TO ABANDON THIS INNER SELFISH SOMETIMES SECRET LOVE OF WICKEDNESS. Secret because we love it so much we hardly bring it to our conscious mind and admit it to ourselves that we don't want to change, we want to persist in this way. So the temperature of the fire of consequence that we must feel, the flames, must hurt, to get out attention, and to make us ponder and weigh...
So along the way, the HIGHER things, mercy, forgiveness, grace, sacrifice, courage, fidelity, perseverance, patience, kindness, long suffering, and on and on, all these virtues, can be understood... and FINALLY DESIRED, MORE than selfishness. More than sin. More than getting our own way. More than being our own god. Making our own rules and doing what we want to do. Being our own judge and standard.
We must admit that us sinful beings DO NOT deserve immortality. The wages truly are death. When we are good and ready, when God has decided the workmanship in Christ Jesus is complete, we can be given immortality, as He gives us His Divine nature. Then yes, we can live forever. No one in the unthanktful, murderous, lying, carnal, backbiting, jealous, envious, stealing, hateful, prideful, arrogant, self serving state of carnality deserves or is entitled to anything but to the shortest probationary physical existence followed by DEATH. Thank God that through Jesus we can be rescued from the body of sin, this carnal nature, and learn to love the things and ways of God, FAR MORE than the lusts of the flesh and the pride of life, and then, through Christ, forgiven and sanctified and renewed, be remade into His glorious ways.
It has to hurt. It has to be very very real. And the beauty of all the virtues, and the beauty and greatness of unselfish pure love can be CONTRASTED with overwhelming victory over the self love of the carnal beast. There is nothing about the carnal beast that is praiseworthy, or needs to be retained. It is apt and correct that any carnal beast must feel pain and suffering commensurate with what the carnal beast is. I do not find it hard to understand at all. I just find that the pain of it is and can be, mind blowing, to be one who wants to be earthly, carnal, and selfish. So be it. Let God pour out His wrath to change us.
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Hi Revilonivek, you wrote "scripture is clear that Jesus is the yahweh God of the old testament. why the brutality?approving of killing, rape of women and children of other tribes not of God. killing pregnant women, babies and young children. its not their fault. they were born in different cultures, destroyed towns and all inhabitants in it if one or two was practicing a different religion. and they treated women as property, ruling his people with an iron fist. very strict and demands blood of innocent animals to cover people's sin and soothe Gods anger and now Jesus rules with mercy and compassion in the new testament and He himself was the God of the old testament? Bible says he never changes but this is obvious he changed?
Maybe the scriptures aren't that clear. I mean you notice that this God of the Old Testament doesn't fit what we know of Jesus. You even state it is obvious he changed and also you say also the Bible says he doesn't change. So yeah, what is going on here? I even wonder why we just surrender all thought about this and just accept it as fact because we were told it was from God, or from a book that is supposedly from God. I personally applaud you not trying to sweep it under the rug. I tend to see the Old Testament as picture of the old man and the shadow and the incomplete. The school master teaching us. And I tend to see the New Testament as the new man and the reality and the complete. The realization and the revelation of this understanding. So most importantly lets hope we don't repeat some of those brutal acts you quoted in the physical and lets hope we also don't do it spiritually in our lives. But as I always say, I don't run the show. But I'm a striving! :)
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Hi John
I love to sin. I was never forced to sin. I enjoyed every sin I ever committed and will commit.
Do you think that is the proper attitude towards sin for the follower of Christ? Or, do you think God intends for us to keep that attitude? And if that attitude is in you, do you desire for that attitude to go away?
When I do good, it is not me but God doing good through me
Can't argue with that. :)
I see nothing wrong with having sex with an unmarried woman
Someday you will. We are all to be renewed in our thoughts heart and minds. God doesn't say it is wrong just because.
God has made me to obey Him even though I don't understand why it is a sin, other than God saying so. Which is good enough for me because He leads me to obey Him.
Can't argue with that.
Also, what is this statement of yours, "Let God pour out His wrath to change us"? I don't find that God deals with us in wrath. Mostly, God has gently worked with me to change me.
Maybe the word wrath doesn't resonate with you. Because it is true the Elect of God are not appointed to be children of wrath (meaning facing eonian judgments). But this does not mean that Gods attitude towards sin and unrighteousness is watered down or weak with his chosen ones. Even as He does pity me, and deals with in LOVE, and gentleness, He has spanked me, and that spanking is very thorough and does yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
I have felt His chastisement, and it has caused me to hate wickedness and despise the sin in me...and thirst and long for righteousness. I hope that means God has received me as a son, and is dealing with me as a son. And has scourged me when necessary. His discipline hurts. But afterwards, it has such reward.
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
God has dealt with me with great tenderness and lovingkindness, and has applied a strong rod of correction, too. And it was grievous, but taught me obedience and changed my heart to do as I wrote...to love righteousness and hate sin and wickedness, and to hunger and thirst for righteousness. And yet, and yes, I SO AGREE His loving kindness and tenderness is better than life.
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Thank you all for your replies. I wanted to read all of it before I replied back.
What i can tell you is It shakes my foundation pretty much with questions.
Some of you say there are so much evil because God is trying to help us hate evil so we will turn. I would accept that but more questions spurts from that like.. Why did God approve it and sees it as righteous? There's big difference between kill and murder in the old tesatment. God gave these people the 10 commandments, and one of them is not to kill. Apparently, there's a difference. You are held responible for murder if you do not have the seal of God's approval to kill. They killed and saw it righeous because God approved it. Why does God see that killing other tribes's pregnant women, adorable babies, little children and so on is righeous? I have seen so many like this in other religions. Their gods has zero tolerance for sin and infidels. anyone who doesnt follow your beliefs and believes they deserve to die. That is the mindset of many religions. That is the thing. I am bothered by that..babies and little children as we know, are innocent, they are not evil yet. who justifies killing them just becuase they are of different tribe, different culture, different sets of beliefs. Even to this day, some in christendom, are still living in the physical, has the old testament mindset as we see today.. like Kenya. They were taught the bible by missionaries, you should look it up on you tube the horrible things they do just because they feel they are doing God service. They burn anyone who is caught sinning.. right on the spot. IT is what jews did in the old tesatment, they have zero tolerance for sin because they feel it would anger God. There are still many who are still stuck in the old tesatment mindset. I am HORRIFIED by what I saw. in Kenya, they burn their sinners ALIVE. They bind them, fuel them with gas, and set them ablaze and let others watch.. just because they stole a potato, suspected of witchcraft, and so on.. a preview of what jews used to do in the old testament..
Next question... John of Kentucky said he's happy God approved of killing innocent animals... YOu misunderstand me... Jews in the old testament do not eat their sacrfices. They just offer sacrifices to God in hopes of asking for forgiveness and soothe God's anger My question is.. if God is not physical.. doesnt eat or drink, or has need for anything physical. Why need the kill innoncent animals? how does animals blood forgive our sins.. all we do is kill innocent animals and offer sacrifices. I have read somewhere in the old tesatment they even did human sacrifice. How does blood sacrifice justify anything? they cannot eat their sacrifices. They just give it to God by slaughtering them and burning them. Its like the mayans but alot worse.. Mayans use human sacrifices more than animals.. but if you witness it back then witht he jews. you would be horrified. but they back then feel they are doing God service by slaughtering animals and offering their blood and flesh.. I just don't understand... God is not physical.
lastly.. about God.. If Jesus was the yahweh God of the old testament.. WHat he taught his people in the old testament, he told them to take sabbath seriously, to take everything seriously and has zero tolerance for sin. death is automatic if you break rules. I can see why the pharisees are the way they are.. when jesus came. He ridicluled them for taking so seriously instead of looking at the spirit of the law when JEsus himself was the yahweh God of the old testament and had zero tolerance for sin.
and other thing.. when the apostles asked Jesus to see the Father.. Jesus told them they are looking at the father.. Jesus was the yahweh God of the old tesatment, it was the God they were following. the jews considered yahweh the Father by the looks of it? HOw can Jesus be the God of the old testament if he is not the Father himself? It is a bit confusing? Is he the Father God or the Son God? Is he the Father God of the old tesatment.. scripture say NO one has ever heard or spoken or seen any shape of the Father God.. and Jesus is the God of the old tesatment that the pharisses consider the Father. Please help?
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Hi JFK,
I love to sin. I was never forced to sin. I enjoyed every sin I ever committed and will commit.
When I do good, it is not me but God doing good through me. For example, I see nothing wrong with having sex with an unmarried woman.
Fornication is just one of the sins of the flesh that we indulge in to our own shame, at some point anyway. Why is it wrong? It is an act of self gratification with no requirement for commitment for what can result, yes there can be negative consequences. But it's also a fore shadow of spirital fornication. Here are a few places where Ray speaks on these things.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.0.html --------
Sex outside of marriage is adultery and whoredom, by definition. Of course most people are guilty of that, yours truly included. But that is the fact, it is called adultery and whoredom.
Heb 13:4 Marriage (matrimony) is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled; but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
v
Notice what He contrast it with…… matrimony. The marriage institution is honorable and the bed undefiled - having sex together as a husband and wife. The word undefiled, that’s kind of a semi-negative to me, the word is pure. Why put undefiled? The word is pure. The marriage bed between a husband and wife is pure in God’s eyes. It’s pure to have sex with your wife or your mate, that’s pure.
But notice what the opposite is, if it’s not marriage, “…but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” If you are not in matrimony in your wedding bed, what does God consider you? A whoremonger and a adulterer. Now do I need to read Rev. 21:8, “All whoremongers will find their place in the Lake of fire.” Is that not clear enough there? People don’t put these things together. If you are not married, but you live together, you are a whoremonger and adulterer.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2798.msg20762.html#msg20762 ------------------
Dear Gloria:
When you say "live together out of convenience" I assume you mean that they fornicate together, but don't want to commit to a long term relationship or a legal marriage, is that correct? It's a sin. Just like any other adultery, fornication, homosexuality, etc. The only legal sex in God's eyes is "married sex."
God be with you,
Ray
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Hello,Denise
You have very good questions.And I am sure the Forum members we have here can Answer them for you!But when they do its not like we can Make you understand them.As I know that your aware of that.One thing that comes to mind for me is the Question:If God is not the cause of all these things, will it make you feel better that His not?I mean the alternative is ITS on Man.Which means God love is not enough to stop it!If the guys go in and wipe out all these people and God surely knows about it but doesnt stop them isnt He just as guilty?So God cant win one way or another?Just sayin..
They killed and saw it righeous because God approved it. Why does God see that killing other tribes's pregnant women, adorable babies, little children and so on is righeous.....was one of your questions:
Ezekiel:33:11...God takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked.
Again:WE can continue to give you Scripture on this....And say "Who is the clay to tell the potter what to do." And on... and on.
And another thing comes to mind is that Ray said... and I am paraphrasing what I think I remember what He said. "Evil has no personal bias'Evil is only evil when used by carnal man against one another.When God uses it.. its for good.Because His using it to transform us from carnal beasts to Image of the Son. Honestly,What does it matter how any of us will die?When the creator has a plan as beautiful as He has ?IF we were one of those woman,men, babies, that got wiped out..and not to be incentive...but whats the big deal if we would then Sleep a while... and then be brought back to life. With the advantage of at least eventually putting on immortality .We all have a calling and purpose and Only GOD knows fully what that is and how it will end in regards to this life!
Just some thoughts my friend,Again I am sure others will give you some more to think on!the truth.
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http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm)
TRUTH NUMBER 8
[A] "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty, etc.], upon whom the ends of the world [‘eons—ages’] are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
"Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (I Cor. 10:6).
[C] "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for OUR LEARNING…" (Rom. 15:4).
It is essential that we study the Old Testament Scriptures, for they are often the only key to the New Testament Scriptures. Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to teach the foolish Galatians the New Covenant promises. Here’s but one great example:
"Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not HEAR the law? For it is written [in Old Covenant Scriptures] that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the FLESH; but he of the freewoman was by PROMISE. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders [gives birth] to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
"But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which IS the mother of us all.
For it is written, ‘Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
"Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free." (Gal. 4:21-31).
This is not only an allegory, but it is an allegory containing many metaphors as well. An allegory is when characters or events (such as Sarah and Agar and their children) represent abstract or spiritual ideas or principles. A metaphor is when one thing is said to be something else. (such as Agar actually being mount Sinai, which then represents or corresponds to Jerusalem in bondage). It may seem a little complicated at first, but once one sees all of the aspects of the allegory explained, this principle is quite easy to understand. Nevertheless, it does require the Spirit of God to believe it. It is this very fact (that the Church does not understand or believe this allegory) that the Church continues to believe that God’s true chosen people are STILL, "the children of the bondwoman"—"Jerusalem which NOW IS" over there in the State of Israel. Unbelievable.
Denise,
The story of Sarah and Hagar is only one example from the Old Testament, but I like to view the whole thing as an allegory. As Dave in Tenn reminded us, first the physical and then the spiritual. I hate violence, I hate war, I hate even minor confrontations, so it's hard for me to read the Old Testament violence---unless I'm looking at the spiritual aspect of it. So when I read a passage like the one below, I ask myself: what spiritual lesson is there here?
Deuteronomy 7--1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
These nations have all been long dead, and a literal interpretation of this is of little value to us. But an allegoric interpretation can be very useful. The native peoples of Canaan turned to dust long ago, but I have my own Hittites and Girgashites and Amorites to overcome, and they are alive and well. Like the physical ones were greater than Israel, my spiritual ones are "larger and stronger" than me. As JFK said, it's enjoyable to sin. It's hard not to make treaties with and intermarry with the Hivites and Jebusites in my life. I've been doing it for 27 years. But even so, I live in hope, for I believe that God "has chosen us out of all the peoples on the face of the earth", and I can gladly look forward to the day when God will deliver my enemies unto me, and "destroy them totally". 8)
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very sad to say these things have always been here and the word says He order them to be done maybe this is sometimes? its' Him but do we know Jesus like we think we do? will our mind understand what our spirit know? He does kill even woman with babies and little babies and children He lets this happen all the time are these things too hard for us to think about?
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ez2u-
I take this with a heavy heart.. It bothers me greatly- others say to look at the old testament as allegories, but the point is, if it was true, it's hard to look at it as allegories. But to be frank, the old testament can teach us to move away from the carnal lifestyle, because of the destructive living they led.. making us want to be set apart... but still.. ordering women, children, pregnant women, babies, and so on to be killed just because they are of a different ethnic group and has their own cultures. kills anyone who serves another religion other than His own..Seems very intolerant and unforgiving, and had no mercy. Unless they were justifying their actions believing that God approves it? we see that all the time even now.. 9/11, Salem, Inquisition, and so on?
One thought- since we know that people existed before Adam and Eve on earth but maybe the Jewish genealogy people were the ones God created with special attention in Genesis and the rest of ethnic groups were already there and He holds his Jewish people to a higher standard and is intolerant about inbreeding in the old testament with other ethnic groups? maybe?
I have no idea... Then all the sudden, the same God, (Jesus) in the new testament tells us to be tolerant of other people and turn the other cheek and forgive..love our enemies and so on.. It's so confusing..
From observing other religions that exist.. all religions perceive their own religion as the correct one and others and anyone outside that view are infidels. if Jesus is the Yahweh God of the old testament.. He definitely taught differently now than back in the old testament. That bothers me..
I don't know...
Denise
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ez2u-
I take this with a heavy heart.. It bothers me greatly- others say to look at the old testament as allegories, but the point is, if it was true, it's hard to look at it as allegories. But to be frank, the old testament can teach us to move away from the carnal lifestyle, because of the destructive living they led.. making us want to be set apart... but still.. ordering women, children, pregnant women, babies, and so on to be killed just because they are of a different ethnic group and has their own cultures. kills anyone who serves another religion other than His own..Seems very intolerant and unforgiving, and had no mercy. Unless they were justifying their actions believing that God approves it? we see that all the time even now.. 9/11, Salem, Inquisition, and so on?
One thought- since we know that people existed before Adam and Eve on earth but maybe the Jewish genealogy people were the ones God created with special attention in Genesis and the rest of ethnic groups were already there and He holds his Jewish people to a higher standard and is intolerant about inbreeding in the old testament with other ethnic groups? maybe?
I have no idea... Then all the sudden, the same God, (Jesus) in the new testament tells us to be tolerant of other people and turn the other cheek and forgive..love our enemies and so on.. It's so confusing..
From observing other religions that exist.. all religions perceive their own religion as the correct one and others and anyone outside that view are infidels. if Jesus is the Yahweh God of the old testament.. He definitely taught differently now than back in the old testament. That bothers me..
I don't know...
Denise
Man existing outside the garden before adam an eve is, to my understanding, not to be taken as to mean any intelligent form of man, capable of knowing God, of agriculture, of reading and writting etc.. the man outside the garden, that cain came to know his wife from, was the now extinct neadrethals and other forms of humans which lead to, according to science, us homosapians. There is evidence that not only did we interbreed with these lesser "evolved" forms of humans but that we infact lead to their extinction.
In otherwords, i don't think these humans outside the garden were capable of culture as we know it etc.
Lastly, Ray has spoken about how some things are written from the relative perspective or the perspective of man, while others are written from the absolute perspective (God's perspective.) What if those parts we find so hard to understand in the old testament are actually written from the eyes of man and in so attempting to justify such horrendous and horrific events perpetrated by those in the old testament which seem to be in almost complete opposition to the Jesus we know of the new testament. Make sense?
It's always easier to say, God told us to do it and to get others to follow you then to own up to your own actions and say their was no justification for what was committed other then pure carnal madness.
I could be rambling.. but it's a thought. Ray's little portion on "Relative vs Absolute" makes me wonder about whether that applies to some of these events described in the OT and whether it was really "GOD" who commanded these things to be done or whether it was man just trying to justify his insatious carnal appetite.
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It is a little hard for me to understand how people can have such a hard time with God ordering the Amalekite nation to be destroyed when they repeatedly attacked (usually the weak in cruelty and cowardice), the Israelites as they came up from Egypt to enter into their Promised Land. Remember the counterattackon the Amalekites led by Joshua, the battle which Israel won because Aaron and Hur helped Moses hold up his rod when his arms grew tired? (From the Jewish Encyclopedia) "Amalek appears elsewhere always as an insignificant robber nation." This shows that God does not deal lightly with wicked people or nation. Yet people continue to show their dismay at God for ordering this.
What about when God sent down fire on the city of Sodom and all the inhabitants died? Or when the earth opened up and swallowed Korah all the men with him and their households? I don't hear people questioning God's actions there.
There have been wars through all of recorded history, this is the age we live in, part of the experience of evil. So when the Scriptures were being written and as with the Israelites we see how God was involved in their lives in every sorts of situations, including wars.
Do we think that God is any less involved in the situations that have happened throughout all of history? Certainly there are things that we disagree with in our human reasoning, but when I do not understand what God is doing I trust that He knows better than I. Any way just stateing my thoughts on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The above are just a few things weighing heavily on my heart.
JFK....that..."things weighing heavily on my heart" is just a mega Spirit of the Lord giving you a great BIG HUG. ;D
Denise :)
Death is overcome by God. For us too, death is overcome by the Spirit of God. Death shall loose it's sting. There is no other way. :)
Arc
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I think John from Kentucky brought up some wise historical background and some good commentary on Gods use of "evil" Notice I put evil in quotation marks, because as JFK mentioned, God does not need anyone to defend His actions, because everything He does is done not only out of justice and fairness but our of love. We, in our extreme nearsightedness, might not see or understand this, until we put on the glasses of faith. Then we can see clearly.
Now their is a whole lot of accusations floating around cyberspace on how "evil" God is not only because of the stories in the Old Testament of slaughter but what about modern life? DO we really need to go any further than our own century to see the greatest evils that mankind can do to one another? How high has the level of suffering been, for so many, in so many atrocities?
Clearly, maybe, to see that God ordered such killings, the direct connection between the suffering and God seems to up close and personal than when we look at Mao or Stalin or child molestors, who have no such direct connection, as a direct command that we can see; though they are doing what God has long ago written in the book of their lives what shall be done.
Is God evil for writing the book of their lives in that way, or in ordering the slaughter of "innocents"? Of course not. First and the least reason, is that no one is innocent. But far more than this is the overiding truth that is seen so much more clearly with the eyes of faith that GOD IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN USE EVIL FOR A GOOD PURPOSE. PERIOD.
None of us has perfect knowledge of every interaction and heart except God. None of us has perfect and loving intentions and motives that are absolutely free from any selfishness whatsoever, except God. And none of us have the ability to overturn any action, including reversing a killing and bringing to life again, except God.
Those attributes of God that I mentioned are WHY we are forbidden to use evil, and for us it is a sin; but for God it is never a sin.
God has much greater plans for mankind than three score and ten, or 2 months in the case of a baby being killed. MUCH GREATER. And this plan that includes suffering and sin and death and all that is written, is the BEST and most LOVING way to make His plans come to fruition. God will never have to give an account in any way to any human being for what He has ordained and caused. And when the final plans are complete, He will be so justified when His masterpiece is revealed that there will be only room for thankfulness, gratefulness, and AWE in what has transpired.
If your heart is troubled by thses things then your faith is low. Your faith in the goodness of God is low. Your faith in His love is low. Your understanding of the wickedness of sin is low. It must hurt to be a sinner!! Death has sting! If there was no sting in death, who would fear it? And, as sinners, we are subject to whatever death God decides we will experience.
But death will not always have a sting. Where is your faith in this scripture?
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Where indeed...
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And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: ‘to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach’] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
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And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:
"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: ‘to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach’] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).
lol In other words, it'll beat the hell out of us. (Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19)
See, where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. (Rom. 5:20)
Ouch!
Better believe it. lol
When I was a little girl and misbehaved and refused to stop, my nanny Priscilla would go to the kitchen, get a wash cloth and wet it reallll goooood. She'd ring that puppy up and just switch it real lightly on the backside of my leg just so it'd sting real good, no marks or anything. lol. That calmed me right down. haha! I'd be begging her -- No, No! Cilla! Don't, don't! Haha. By the time it was all over, we'd both be laughin. Well, sometimes. lol She "educated" me.
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there will always be evils everywhere, it doesn't matter which race you are, what ethnic group you are, evil is always there..somewhere like for example.. we see the evils with Salem, Inquisition, 9/11 and so on, you get the idea... But they don't necessarily represent the good people or the majority in that ethnic group.
talk about perspective, like the present time, for some Christians, when they see the crazy extreme Muslim terrorist group doing crazy things, doing barbaric things like decapitating heads, because of the things they believe in, like crashing into the NYC towers all because they feel God approves it. and as a consequence, another religions, some Christians, some other religions feels that that terrorist group represent all Muslims when it really isn't true. as a consequence, they take it out on other Muslims that live here in our country. There are good Muslims that doesn't necessarily agree to that view. Now, let's go back to the time to that time, without internet, no phones, no wiki, or anything...
in a person with different religion mindset, they may believe that it is easy to just wipe the whole race just to BE SURE they will never come back? there are plenty of innocent people, like for example, many groups, like BT group doesn't represent the churchanity views, but other religions, like Hindu, and Muslim may still see us as a religion under Christianity and they see the evils that some Christians does, and declare us all people evil... automatically. and declare the whole race under chrsitianity wiped.. becuase they believe and think all Christians are evil..
I'm just saying- just because some does evil, doesn't' necessarily represent all in that ethnic group. you already know any religion are intolerant of ANY religion outside their religion. That applies to all religions. It never ends. Of course I feel for those innocent people involved. My heart goes to them.
did you not know that Israelites are commanded to rape women of other ethnic group and killed in front of children.. pregnant women dashed with the sword.. babies.. young children. and of course men. Their view is to punish them severely... traumatize by doing all of that.. It doesn't matter. Think of the genocide in Africa.
John, Actually Jesus taught us to be tolerant, by telling us to turn the other cheek when they do evil to us... as in putting a stop to all the violence that has been repeated over and over throughout history.. of course Jesus constantly insulted the pharisees with the old testament mindset. they believe in stoning any one who sinned no matter what size of sin, intolerant of every sin committed. He hated that mindset very much. The difference is, he doesn't act out like murdering them or chopping off their hands, feet, ears, tongue, or eyes. He insulted them. That's a big difference. He even defended a woman from being stoned to death because the pharisees feel she sinned and deserved to die. He said for any one who is without sin can stone her, but turns out they had sin and left..
No one is good. No one. I think what Jesus wanted is an end to all religions. all it does throughout history is kill one another. I look forward to the day Jesus comes back because that would mean all peace throughout the earth... and everyone becomes one mentally when it comes to what is righteous. No more murdering, raping, chopping off limbs, no more stealing, no more of that craziness.
Denise
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Denise, let me give you one more perspective on 'seeing' the spiritual in this (and other similar) stories. The I'll shut up.
In my religious youth, I read this passage thinking "If I were God, what would I do?" I've also read it in carnal-minded hippy indignation thinking, "If I were an Israeilite, what would I do?"
But God let me live long enough and put me through experiences in His wisdom (which I still can barely fathom, even though I've lived through it) which made me a vessel of dishonor. Now I can read them and see that, spiritually, I am 'of the tribe' being destroyed.
It's foolish to imagine I am God. It's inappropriate and false for ME to imagine most of my past as an 'agent of righteousness'. I'm the one who is guilty of "sacrificing babies to false gods". Not many volunteer to die. In fits and starts, kicking and screaming sometimes (most of the time) it's become OK with me to die. That's 'turning the other cheek' too, isn't it?
God is not finished with my tribe. Even Sodom will rise again.
I can't make you 'get that'. I can just tell you what's in my heart.
Do good.
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Dave,
I think the Jews totally misunderstood the laws God gave them. They saw it as an objective list of do's and don'ts. In fact they added more to the list. Making it harder and harder to keep. When Jesus came, He really blew their minds. He made sure that to keep the law was impossible to keep. Plenty of examples in the old testament-
The bottom line is God is interested in the heart, not the outward. They, in the old testament focused on the outward too much. The point, if they look on the outward, some will succeed, others will not. The old testament were full of those stories. It does show God's love, mercy, forgiveness and so on toward those people who were still on a carnal level of thinking. They were on a objective level of thinking. rather on a subjective or personal level of thinking with God.
I realize now that God did not “sugarcoat" their lives. They were all real people like us, with failures as well as great victories and successes. But through both the failures and successes, God maintained an intimate relationship with them. THAT should give us all hope! Right? I can see that very clearly that God likes to involve Himself in our lives even when we can’t live up to the “objective” commands of God’s law or our desires for Him.
I know we are fallible and our understanding is incomplete. God's is complete. Imagine how far we've come since the "BRONZE AGE" God desired to have a personal relationship. Look up exodus 20 for one example.. it shows how people were afraid of God. No faith and wanted someone else to lead them or interpret for them instead of having a personal relationship with God like Moses did. They lived during the objective age. Now, look at us, under the subjective age and understanding more and more of God's unconditional love. and after all that we've learned...our understanding is still incomplete. We think we understand that perfect love.. which we don't. not yet anyway..
I think it's more of a heart matter, The Jews thought they were accepted by God just because they followed the "rules or commands." The new testament commandments pretty much summed up to Love God and one another. I think that is subjective because we all get to learn and experience that wonderful love. the true love. and it That was why it was hard for me to look at the old testament. I just realized now. They were objective. Not subjective.
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I realize now that God did not “sugarcoat" their lives. They were all real people like us, with failures as well as great victories and successes. But through both the failures and successes, God maintained an intimate relationship with them. THAT should give us all hope! Right? I can see that very clearly that God likes to involve Himself in our lives even when we can’t live up to the “objective” commands of God’s law or our desires for Him.
I know we are fallible and our understanding is incomplete. God's is complete. Imagine how far we've come since the "BRONZE AGE" God desired to have a personal relationship. Look up exodus 20 for one example.. it shows how people were afraid of God. No faith and wanted someone else to lead them or interpret for them instead of having a personal relationship with God like Moses did. They lived during the objective age. Now, look at us, under the subjective age and understanding more and more of God's unconditional love. and after all that we've learned...our understanding is still incomplete. We think we understand that perfect love.. which we don't. not yet anyway..
This is so cool.
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Beautiful post, Dave in Tenn. Thanks. ;)
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HI everyone,
Thanks for your answers- I appreciate you all for trying to help me understand. I feel kind of guilty for bringing out my thoughts but it is what is on my heart.. Its frustrating, I appreciate this group- it helps me think things through. I sometimes jump before i think.. I have zillions questions- one of them, deep stuff like for example, if the modern humans is really about 6,000 years..and according to Genesis it takes another 6,000 years to create heavens and earth, to the point of creation of modern humans,(1000 years here, one day up there) that's like 12,000 years total from day 1 of creation to now. Earth has already proven to be much older than that. neandrathals, dinosaurs, artifacts, existed for alot longer than that.. how do we explain all of that? I guess all in due time.
Throughout our conversations about the behaviors of the BRONZE AGE- I just realized- it just clicked- about their way of living- They perceive it as normal behavior.They perceive it as normal. something common, an everyday way of living, and they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. God only deals with us if we know it is wrong. women were treated as property because they believed that very strongly. Virgins were highly prized, that is what they covet back then. That is why it is so easy to condone a civilization that look at it as normal or typical way of life. I think God has been dealing with my heart in this area.. I think i understand now.
THanks all!
Denise
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It sure sounds like you feel a lot better, Denise. We're all in this together. :)
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Hi Denise,
I have zillions questions- one of them, deep stuff like for example, if the modern humans is really about 6,000 years..and according to Genesis it takes another 6,000 years to create heavens and earth, to the point of creation of modern humans,(1000 years here, one day up there) that's like 12,000 years total from day 1 of creation to now. Earth has already proven to be much older than that. neandrathals, dinosaurs, artifacts, existed for alot longer than that.. how do we explain all of that?
Ray has spoken on this quite a bit in conferences, here are some links.
Audio 2009 Mobile Conference
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Worship.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/YetCarnal.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Define6Days.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/DEFINETHEDAY.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ISJESUSGODPT1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/ISJESUSGODPT2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/THEGODFAMILYPT1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/THEGODFAMILYPT2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/INHERITTHEKINGDOM.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/THEONEGODPT1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/THEONEGODPT2.mp3
Here is the transcript to the 09 Mobile Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.0.html
Audio 2008 Nashville Conference
Saturday morning part #1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession1.mp3
Saturday morning part #2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession2.mp3
Saturday morning part #3: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession3.mp3
Saturday morning part #4: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession4.mp3
Saturday morning part #5: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession5.mp3
Saturday morning part #6: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession6.mp3
Saturday afternoon part #7: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession7.mp3
Sunday morning part #8A: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8A.mp3
Sunday morning part #8B: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8B.mp3
Sunday morning part #9: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession9.mp3
Sunday morning part #10: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession10.mp3
transcript links to the 08 Nashville Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat. :) I'll check them out.
I can't listen to the audio part since I have profound hearing loss. :P but I will check out the transcripts though.
Denise
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Sorry about that Denise, forgot about your not being able to hear the audios. Glad the transcripts are there :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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My answer in this question is also a question:
What is the difference between killing in the Old Testament and killing the Creator in the New Testament? Is there a difference?
For question No.1.... We know very much that all the Father has was given to Jesus and, all that Jesus has was from the Father even the Name Jesus is from the Father. Is this mean that The Father dines in Jesus and Jesus Dines in the Father? We know that in the beginning the voice is with the Father and this voice dwells in us. Therefore in that case when people see Jesus in His glory they will actually see the Father in Jesus. Remember when that disciple stoned to death saw Jesus standing at the Right hand of the Father, or was it the Father actually dines at left portion of the body of Christ? maybe my perception is wrong but there is a possibility. Forgive me for giving my opinion but that is always the things that comes out in my mind whenever i saw writings that describe Jesus and His Father.
sorry for my english, i am not well verse in English.
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Hey Denise,
I don't think any of us can say WHY God does things like he does. Or that any of us should think that He should have done it a way that is easier for us to understand with our limited knowledge. We just have to come to the point that we believe that his judgments are righteous whether we ever understand them or not. Try to think about how the end for all those babies, women and children is LIFE and peace. No one has ever suffered or died in vain. Every one suffers but our suffering isn't worth comparing with the glory that will revealed in us.
Maybe God will show you the answers to your questions some day and then you can share it with us. :)