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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Hellisfake on November 20, 2016, 12:50:04 PM
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Hi everybody! Here is a question for you:
Could Jesus come today, or is it something that has to take place before he can come, something we can be aware of?
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Hellisfake
I think he is here now, how else can we explain everything that's happening in the world. He runs everything.
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Jesus Christ said he would come like a thief in the night. He won't give any clues as to his coming. I think Ray said somewhere that every generation of believers since Jesus ascended to heaven has always thought Jesus would come back in their own lifetime.
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Hellisfake
I think he is here now, how else can we explain everything that's happening in the world. He runs everything.
Ofcourse he is here right now, but iam talking about hes second coming, when he will set up his kingdom on earth.
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Jesus Christ said he would come like a thief in the night. He won't give any clues as to his coming. I think Ray said somewhere that every generation of believers since Jesus ascended to heaven has always thought Jesus would come back in their own lifetime.
But Paul said that: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thes 5:4
According to Paul, Jesus arrival will not surprise us?
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Jesus Christ said he would come like a thief in the night. He won't give any clues as to his coming. I think Ray said somewhere that every generation of believers since Jesus ascended to heaven has always thought Jesus would come back in their own lifetime.
But Paul said that: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thes 5:4
According to Paul, Jesus arrival will not surprise us?
Because we are always watching and not slumbering. That doesn't mean we can know the time or day though. It just means that when He does appear, we will be waiting, and thus not taken by surprise.
Mark 13
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
So we watch and wait, God willing, and God willing He shall appear soon.
God bless,
Alex
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Jesus Christ said he would come like a thief in the night. He won't give any clues as to his coming. I think Ray said somewhere that every generation of believers since Jesus ascended to heaven has always thought Jesus would come back in their own lifetime.
But Paul said that: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" 1 Thes 5:4
According to Paul, Jesus arrival will not surprise us?
y
Because we are always watching and not slumbering. That doesn't mean we can know the time or day though. It just means that when He does appear, we will be waiting, and thus not taken by surprise.
Mark 13
34 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
So we watch and wait, God willing, and God willing He shall appear soon.
God bless,
Alex
So the future for the beliver is like a blank paper, no signs, no unfulfilled prophecy, no event we haft to wait for before he can come. Just be ready. Iagree with you. Thats the way God want it to be, so we dont have rong focus on something, else but the Lord.
Thanks for your reply:)
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Although we don't know the date or hour, I think there are many things happening to indicate
The social, racial. Religion, police state, surveillance obsessed, rumours of wars, hate crimes, passing disgusting laws, cash grabbing, corruption in government, etc. And I'm just talking about Canada. I believe the Lord is opening up the eyes of many and exposing much corruption. There is a lot of evil out there and Ray speaks about it in his paper on Tophet and Molech In Hinnom.
Coupled with his paper on the two towers, he is giving us a lot of information .
World wide deception is a necessary part of Gods plan.
Matt 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive
[if possible] even the elect. If .... a tiny powerful word.🙏🏼
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In all of those ways, there have been worse times, and certainly worse times elsewhere at some points in History. There may be worse times ahead, or there may be better times. There are also worse times for some while being better times for others. The sea of Humanity is raging. Raging seas are not worse and worse and worse. They are raging. Waves can only be compared to waves. I know this isn't a popular message. Lord knows, I've been told all my life that the world is getting worse and soon to end. People love their doomsday. Who am I to argue? He said He'd calm the waves. I'm looking forward to that.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
If you haven't fallen away and it hasn't been revealed to you that you are the "man of sin" and the "son of perdition", then don't look elsewhere for the sign of His coming.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
Understand, I don't expect the world to behave differently. I expect it to "rage" until it is quieted.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
I don't even expect the "church" to behave differently, though many do--primarily those who aren't too deeply set in their "religion".
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh (Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like) with the affections and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
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So, can we say, yes, He can come today?
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He's been coming today for His few for 2000 years.
Act 17:31 ...he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness (He's not now judging the world) by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
That "day" could be today. If anybody thinks otherwise, I'm not going to argue.
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So, can we say, yes, He can come today?
Sure. He can come for you or me today and kill us in death. Dwelling on all the other fru fru I'm not sure is productive. Kind of like debating about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Ray said that his thoughts on when the end of the world would be changed after 9/11
WHEN IS THE END OF THIS WORLD?
Over the years I have been asked many times whether or not I thought the end of this world was near and the coming of our Lord was at hand? This question is usually asked with reference to some recent happening in the world, such as a war or rumor of wars, bad weather, famine, a new potential disease epidemic, some huge earthquake, volcano, hurricane, or a tsunami. These events are general, and have been with us for thousands of years. So my answer was always pretty much the same: "No, I do not believe that the end of the world is near, but certainly "…now our salvation is nearer than when we believed" (Rom.13:11). But that all changed on "September 11, 2001." This to me was not a "general" catastrophic happening as has been witnessed time and again, but this was a very specific catastrophe unlike anything before it.
He also wrote that salvation for the human race would only come after a great slaughter of humanity, that if it weren't for God shortening those days no flesh would be left.
Is this 'great slaughter of humanity' something that could happen after Jesus returns? Or does this have to happen before? I assume this is a physical slaughter because of the use of the word 'flesh' is that accurate?
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In regards to unfulfilled prophecy and also Dave talking about the raging sea... does anyone have thoughts on Isaiah 17?
17 A prophecy against Damascus:
“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
4 “In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
the fat of his body will waste away.
5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,
gathering the grain in their arms—
as when someone gleans heads of grain
in the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,”
declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles[a]
and the incense altars their fingers have made.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.
12 Woe to the many nations that rage—
they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar—
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.
As we know today Damascus is a city so has this prophecy not been fulfilled? Or perhaps there's a spiritual meaning and fulfillment that has passed?
Is it interesting that Damascus is today the focal point of tension between world nuclear super powers and rumors of war?
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largeli -
Interesting Scripture:
In regards to unfulfilled prophecy and also Dave talking about the raging sea... does anyone have thoughts on Isaiah 17?
17 A prophecy against Damascus:
“See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.
3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
4 “In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
the fat of his body will waste away.
5 It will be as when reapers harvest the standing grain,
gathering the grain in their arms—
as when someone gleans heads of grain
in the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,”
declares the Lord, the God of Israel.
7 In that day people will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.
8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles[a]
and the incense altars their fingers have made.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,
11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.
12 Woe to the many nations that rage—
they rage like the raging sea!
Woe to the peoples who roar—
they roar like the roaring of great waters!
13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.
14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.
As we know today Damascus is a city so has this prophecy not been fulfilled? Or perhaps there's a spiritual meaning and fulfillment that has passed?
Is it interesting that Damascus is today the focal point of tension between world nuclear super powers and rumors of war?
There is a lot of misinformation on what is truly going on in Syria today.
It may be that Syria is an integral part of His Plan against the wickedness of mankind - and I am sure that He has some of His Elect living on the land of Syria.
I wonder if mankind will take notice of His Word, if Damascus becomes no more a City.
Kind Regards.
George
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He's been coming today for His few for 2000 years.
Act 17:31 ...he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness (He's not now judging the world) by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
That "day" could be today. If anybody thinks otherwise, I'm not going to argue.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Acts 1:9
There will be a day when we can see him coming, Physically! And that day is a special for day for the whole world, a day when the last trumpet shall sound. And it is a day that only happens once.
According to Ray, it can not happen tomorrow
"He also wrote that salvation for the human race would only come after a great slaughter of humanity, that if it weren't for God shortening those days no flesh would be left". quote
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How many Trumpets will sound before the last one? What happens when the last one sounds?
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Matthew 24:30-33
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
1 Thess 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I do believe our God can make His appearing at any time. With the prophecies regarding Syria, and other such, I do not know. I know there are the many who make great ends and speeches on these matters. I used to be taken in by them before the Lord opened my eyes and gave me ears. They no longer seem right to me now. The coming of Jesus will be as in the days of Noah. This I know most certainly as He said it. They will be doing as they all have done and then the flood comes upon them suddenly, as a thief in the night, but we will be watching and waiting for Him so when He does return, we will not be ashamed (God willing).
God bless,
Alex
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(BBE) Because in those days there will be great sorrow, such as there has not been from the start of the world till now, or ever will be.
(CLV) for then shall be great affliction, such as has not occurred from the beginning of the world till now; neither under any circumstances may be occurring."
(Darby) for then shall there be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be;
(DRB) For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be.
(KJV) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(LEB) For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will happen.
(LITV) For there will be great affliction, such as has not happened from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever will be.
(Murdock) For there will then be great distress, such as hath not been from the commencement of the world, until now, and will not be.
(YLT) for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
Right or wrong, here's how I read that verse:
(BBE) Because in those days there will be great sorrow, such as there has not been from the start of the world till now, or ever will be (such as there has been from the start of the world till now).
Sorrow/affliction such as had not been from the beginning until Jesus spoke these words, and will not be such as has been from the beginning until Jesus spoke these words. In other words, the type of affliction/sorrow seen from the beginning to "now" will not be.
Is it a different type of affliction/sorrow that "will be"? Yes, I think so. And I go beyond this passage for "witness".
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. (How long have they been going on?)
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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How many Trumpets will sound before the last one? What happens when the last one sounds?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is what will happens. But what i do not quite understand, is that the Bible seems to say two different things. It will be a greatslaughter of humanity, that if it weren't for God shortening those days no flesh would be left, or,
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark"
This two seems to contradict each other, Noas days, like a ordinary day, or a time with a great slaughter? Cant get this to fit?
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Hellisfake -
Hi everybody! Here is a question for you:
Could Jesus come today, or is it something that has to take place before he can come, something we can be aware of?
I understand that there are currently two (2) kingdoms in the Heavens and on the Earth; the kingdom of Satan and his demons and messengers - and the Kingdom of Almighty God whose King of kings and Lord of lords is Jesus Christ.
Jesus Himself stated that the kingdom of Satan cannot prevail against the Kingdom of Almighty God.
His Elect must remain in Him; and that is the only way that His Elect will know when He will Return - as His Holy Spirit will confirm (to His Elect) that future time, when it is at hand; and He Will change His Elects Bodies into Spiritual Bodies - so that His True Church (of The Living and the Dead in Christ Jesus) can join Him in the Clouds.
Jesus Himself stated that only Our Heavenly Father knows the time of His Return.
With regards to the state of things - I believe it is very difficult to try and determine how close to His Return we are - and mass deception has always been with us throughout this Age of Grace - as Satan is a liar, a thief, a murderer, a deceiver and evil.
Mankind did not follow Almighty God in Noah's day, nor in any other day - except for those He touched (inspired) in the Old Testament or Called Out (His True Church in the New Testament).
Kind Regards.
George
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How many Trumpets will sound before the last one? What happens when the last one sounds?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is what will happens. But what i do not quite understand, is that the Bible seems to say two different things. It will be a greatslaughter of humanity, that if it weren't for God shortening those days no flesh would be left, or,
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark"
This two seems to contradict each other, Noas days, like a ordinary day, or a time with a great slaughter? Cant get this to fit?
It will be like in the days of Noah... in the days of Noah they were eating, drinking, marrying etc. but they were also exceedingly evil weren't they? So isn't it possible that when the Lord returns we (humanity) will be going about as if all is normal, eating, drinking, marrying... and being exceedingly evil and not realizing how evil we are? Or recognizing a great slaughter when we see it?
Or perhaps the great slaughter has been happening for hundreds or thousands of years already?
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How many Trumpets will sound before the last one? What happens when the last one sounds?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That is what will happens. But what i do not quite understand, is that the Bible seems to say two different things. It will be a greatslaughter of humanity, that if it weren't for God shortening those days no flesh would be left, or,
"But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark"
This two seems to contradict each other, Noas days, like a ordinary day, or a time with a great slaughter? Cant get this to fit?
It will be like in the days of Noah... in the days of Noah they were eating, drinking, marrying etc. but they were also exceedingly evil weren't they? So isn't it possible that when the Lord returns we (humanity) will be going about as if all is normal, eating, drinking, marrying... and being exceedingly evil and not realizing how evil we are? Or recognizing a great slaughter when we see it?
Or perhaps the great slaughter has been happening for hundreds or thousands of years already?
Yea, you made a good point, much of evil living, and usual living. I must content myself with that answer, Thank YOU :D
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Evil=H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
This is the same "evil" that is in the fruit of the tree.
There is no moral bias to the word.
Here's this verse from "concordant" versions of this verse..
Genesis 6:5
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the evil of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but evil all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.
Try this: Just take the first five "definitions" (excluding 'evil') and read it that way.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the bad of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but bad all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the adversity of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only adversity.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the affliction of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only affliction all the day long.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the calamity of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but calamity all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the distress of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only distress.
Small wonder Noah built the ark. :) Sounds like several things it's good to be saved from, if I lived in the days of Noah. I'd want to get away from that too, especially if the thoughts of my heart were true, honest, just, lovely--in other words, GOOD--or at least I wanted them to be. Come to think of it, I DID want them to be almost nine years ago. Somehow, despite all my "sin" and "wickedness", He's been my Ark.
Of course God completely failed to wipe out sin and wickedness (the KJV and it's 'followers' choices of words) from the face of the land by drowning all those folks. According to most, that was His purpose. The ark had barely landed before Noah and crew were at it again. On to Plan C?
Or maybe I'm just being cryptic and pedantic again.
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Dave -
Thank you for sharing this about 'Evil':
Evil=H7451
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
This is the same "evil" that is in the fruit of the tree.
There is no moral bias to the word.
Here's this verse from "concordant" versions of this verse..
Genesis 6:5
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the evil of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but evil all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the evil of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only evil.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the evil of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the day long.
Try this: Just take the first five "definitions" (excluding 'evil') and read it that way.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the bad of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but bad all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the adversity of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only adversity.
(LITV) And Jehovah saw that the affliction of man was great on the earth, and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only affliction all the day long.
(CLV) And seeing is Yahweh Elohim that much is the calamity of humanity in the earth, and every form of the devices of its heart is but calamity all its days.
(LEB) And Yahweh saw that the distress of humankind was great upon the earth, and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was always only distress.
Small wonder Noah built the ark. :) Sounds like several things it's good to be saved from, if I lived in the days of Noah. I'd want to get away from that too, especially if the thoughts of my heart were true, honest, just, lovely--in other words, GOOD--or at least I wanted them to be. Come to think of it, I DID want them to be almost nine years ago. Somehow, despite all my "sin" and "wickedness", He's been my Ark.
Of course God completely failed to wipe out sin and wickedness (the KJV and it's 'followers' choices of words) from the face of the land by drowning all those folks. According to most, that was His purpose. The ark had barely landed before Noah and crew were at it again. On to Plan C?
Or maybe I'm just being cryptic and pedantic again.
Although 'Evil' has no moral bias, the way I understand 'Evil', is by the intent of the heart of the one doing the 'Evil'.
God's intent is to do 'Good' with 'Evil' - as was the case of Joseph and his brothers who meant to do Joseph 'Evil' - but God meant it for 'Good' for Joseph's family, and many others on the land.
I believe that any man, woman or child who commit 'Evil' are guilty of 'Sin' - as only God can use 'Evil' for 'Good'.
Although 'Evil' has no moral bias, is 'Evil' not the opposite of 'Good'?
Are we not Commanded to not return 'Evil' for 'Evil', but to overcome 'Evil' by doing 'Good'?
Warmest Regards.
George
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George, Paul said he did the "evil" even when the intent of his heart was to do the "good". Some people take that to mean Paul was some sort of moral degenerate with a multiple of sins in his life. No. They don't understand the difference between "evil" and "sin". And how can they? They don't understand what EVIL is and barely understand what SIN is. They are only able to think "theologically". If they have had "experience" of the difference, they don't even know they have had it.
I can't achieve deeper understanding until I can get basic understanding. That means, I need to know what the inspired words mean, not what certain translators thought they meant. I'm told in Scripture to search and see if "these things" be true. I do this most readily and eagerly when I hear the same verse being brought up as proof-texts for some 'belief' or doctrine.
I not only prefer to think that the "alternative" translations are better, but they also have the added benefit (besides being more "concordant" and accurate) of matching so much other scripture in the New Testament, and in my experience with the world. Ray quoted the poet in one of the videos Dennis posted recently: Most men live lives of quiet desperation. Most men do not live lives of unending wickedness and plots to commit more all day long.
Now, maybe the people of Noah's time did...but this verse does NOT say that, so I choose NOT to assume they did. However, most men do live lives of adversity, affliction, and at least periodic calamity--and all live lives of fear of the same and struggle to avoid the same in their minds and hearts. These things are on many men's minds constantly all day, every day. Why? Because they have no hope, and no faith--at least not in anything spiritually solid. They lack the fruit of the Spirit because they lack the Spirit, to whatever degree they do.
If "salvation" doesn't change this, then what good is it? Right now, "salvation" for me means having the hope and faith to "build the ark". He'll save everybody, though most will be "slaughtered" first. And if life is nothing but adversity, affliction, and periodic calamity, with constant fear, worry, and carnal amelioration of the same all the live long day, every day, without hope or faith, then what is the big deal about physically dying?
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Hi Dave,
Well said and helpful.
Thanks for expounding those ideas once again.
Indiana bob
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Dave -
Thank you for this clarification; and for pointing out that there is a significant difference between 'Sin' and 'Evil':
George, Paul said he did the "evil" even when the intent of his heart was to do the "good". Some people take that to mean Paul was some sort of moral degenerate with a multiple of sins in his life. No. They don't understand the difference between "evil" and "sin". And how can they? They don't understand what EVIL is and barely understand what SIN is. They are only able to think "theologically". If they have had "experience" of the difference, they don't even know they have had it.
I can't achieve deeper understanding until I can get basic understanding. That means, I need to know what the inspired words mean, not what certain translators thought they meant. I'm told in Scripture to search and see if "these things" be true. I do this most readily and eagerly when I hear the same verse being brought up as proof-texts for some 'belief' or doctrine.
I not only prefer to think that the "alternative" translations are better, but they also have the added benefit (besides being more "concordant" and accurate) of matching so much other scripture in the New Testament, and in my experience with the world. Ray quoted the poet in one of the videos Dennis posted recently: Most men live lives of quiet desperation. Most men do not live lives of unending wickedness and plots to commit more all day long.
Now, maybe the people of Noah's time did...but this verse does NOT say that, so I choose NOT to assume they did. However, most men do live lives of adversity, affliction, and at least periodic calamity--and all live lives of fear of the same and struggle to avoid the same in their minds and hearts. These things are on many men's minds constantly all day, every day. Why? Because they have no hope, and no faith--at least not in anything spiritually solid. They lack the fruit of the Spirit because they lack the Spirit, to whatever degree they do.
If "salvation" doesn't change this, then what good is it? Right now, "salvation" for me means having the hope and faith to "build the ark". He'll save everybody, though most will be "slaughtered" first. And if life is nothing but adversity, affliction, and periodic calamity, with constant fear, worry, and carnal amelioration of the same all the live long day, every day, without hope or faith, then what is the big deal about physically dying?
Unfortunately, this does not help my understanding; and I very much would like to know, so I can improve my understanding.
If I understand you correctly, it appears that you are saying that Paul proved that 'Evil' in itself is not 'Sin' - yet I understand that without 'Evil' there can be no 'Sin'.
I understand that Paul was referencing the 'Law of Sin and Death' in his body, which is rooted in 'not doing Right'.
Perhaps I have misunderstood the whole thing about the single 'Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil' - in that, 'Evil' in itself is not the opposite of 'doing Good'?
When I have suffered 'Evil' through no fault of my own, was I suffering 'Sin'?
When Ray taught us that in order to appreciate 'Good' we must experience 'Evil' - was that not a comparison of opposites?
Does 'Salvation' not free us from 'Sin and Death'?
Did Jesus Himself not suffer 'Evil' at the hands of Jews, yet did not 'Sin' (against God)?
Did not Joseph's brothers do 'Evil' against him (and therefore 'Sinned' against God's Law); which God Himself used for 'Good'?
When anyone of us commits 'Sin' - is that not something that we are accountable to God Himself; and only God Himself (as 'Sin' is not against other people, but against God's Law)?
When we do anything that is not 'Right' to other Men, women and children - are we not doing them 'Evil' (and not doing them 'Sin'); and does not God count this as 'Sin' (against His Law)?
Are His Elect in this Age of Grace not being 'Judged (Chastised)' by Him, in order to get to the point whereby His Elect will always choose to do 'Good' rather than to do 'Evil' - to be like Him - and is that not why His Elect are to 'Have The Mind of Christ' who did not 'Sin' - and did 'Good' and not 'Evil'?
Perhaps if you provided your preferred definitions of both 'Evil' and 'Sin' this would assist me in understanding if we are in agreement, or if I am in error.
Kind Regards.
George
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My personal view is that ALL THE ELECT in Christ (that have not fallen away yet) must Fall away first before JESUS returns to Earth. I found this from Kat's previous posts .... Here then is what must be accomplished in your life before you die:
“Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness, and the work of faith with power: THAT the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be GLORIFIED IN YOU [IN YOU], and YE IN HIM, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ" (II Thes. 1:11-12)!!
How then does our Apostle Paul tell us this MUST be accomplished? What must happen? What must we do? Or rather what must Jesus do IN US? Here is the Scriptural answer:
"Now we beseech YOU, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that THE DAY OF CHRIST [The Day of the Lord] is at hand [FOR YOU...].
Let no man deceive YOU by any means: for that day shall not come [TO YOU…] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST [BY YOU…], and the man of sin be revealed the son of perdition [IN YOU…TO YOU…]; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped [IN YOU…]; so that he as God sits in the temple of God [‘which temple YE ARE’ II Cor. 6:16] showing himself that HE IS [YOU ARE/I AM] a god.
Remember ye not, that when I was yet with YOU, I told YOU these things?
And now ye know what withholds [is restraining, is detaining—‘the falling away FIRST’] that he [‘the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition’—YOU…] might be revealed in his time [in YOU and TO YOU—individually, not collectively] in his time [‘his {particular} time’]—FOR YOU and FOR ME and for ALL BELIEVERS IN ALL GENERATIONS UNTIL JESUS COMES TO US ALL, COLLECTIVELY, AS THE MANIFEST SONS OF GOD]."
Long before Jesus can have a COMPANY of manifest SONS and DAUGHTERS of God, there has to be individual begettals by the Holy Spirit of God in chosen individuals in every generation leading up to the coming of the Lord at the end of this age.
"For the mystery [secret, hidden truth] of iniquity [lawlessness] does already work [‘is inwardly working’ The Emphasized New Testament: A New Translation (J. B. Rotherham)]: only he who now let’s will let [‘only he who restrains will do so’], until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked [Lawless One] be revealed IN [IN YOU] and TO YOU, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming; even him [not original], whose coming [the man of sin called son of perdition IN YOU] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders" (II Thes. 2:1-9).
The Day of the Lord is not fulfilled until the end of this age [Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21].
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Hi folks,
Seems as if all of society is afraid to die especially in some gruesome manner. It also seems that having to be the executioner is a repulsive idea and understandably so.
= =
So I'm asking from the perspective of an old man of 81 who has seen a lot of death of friends and relatives and learned that many old people who have suffered in life are truly ready to accept death as a release from suffering and whether God is not truly being merciful to end the life of disobedient people, even whole populations when God knows their suffering from an intimate perspective.
Just thinking about it I wonder if we would view death differently if God had just put the whole population to sleep, removed His life force from them and then sent the Israelites into the area to bury them.
In other words, no killing of men, women and children by the people of God so that they, God's people didn't have to see the blood and hear the cries of anguish and fear and learn the hard lesson of the consequences of disobedience.
= =
What if God just inspired the leaders to gather the disobedient people together and have them migrate to another area hundreds of miles away where they could live out their existence and then the people of God would just move into a ready made city with no personal effort and without having to trust God for their safety.
I wonder whether we are making too much out of a person's life being cut short.
e.g. "they were too young to die" or their family will miss them so much and may grieve for years and not be able to cope with life apart from their loved one. Aren't these the thoughts and concerns of people who "know not God"?
It may be helpful to consider that God knows what is best for us and if we are sinning to our own hurt and learning habits that will make our lives unbearable such as drugs and crime and other unfulfilling experiences, that it is better to be put to sleep and then brought back when society world wide is under the loving control of our Lord Jesus.
That is what I would prefer for myself or my family members.
Indiana bob
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Brenda and Bob. Excellent.
George, if I were translating the word most often translated "evil", I would translate it "Bad". I'd prefer Bad to Evil because Bad carries much less theological baggage. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Both are simple enough for children, yet broad enough to allow the passages in which they are found to indicate "in what way good or bad" or "how good and bad". And they are flexible enough to let growing people actually recognize the difference without religio-speak as they live their lives and experience both.
Now then. I'm a word kinda guy. That's how I think, and how I study. But I know the warning against undue strife over words. Sometimes, however, there is a spot for DUE strife over words. Take away ALL emphasis on "words" from Ray's articles, and they would turn into Ray's pamphlets. :D
OK, imagine you're me for a moment at this very moment. You want very much to communicate something that you know to be good, but you know that this will cause some confusion and turn people away because you're not able to articulate it precisely enough for a web-forum. Confusion is bad. Turning people away is bad. I don't want to do that or have that be result of what I do.
If you can successfully imagine that, then you have a good idea what Paul was saying about his own DOING, and a far better idea than most theologians, arm-chair or professional.
The GOOD that I would do, that I don't do. The BAD that I would NOT do, that I do. Because I'm just me, too weak, un-gifted, and lacking. What a mess. Who can deliver me from this body of death?
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Bob -
You raise a very interesting Perspective of death, and the fear of death:
Hi folks,
Seems as if all of society is afraid to die especially in some gruesome manner. It also seems that having to be the executioner is a repulsive idea and understandably so.
= =
So I'm asking from the perspective of an old man of 81 who has seen a lot of death of friends and relatives and learned that many old people who have suffered in life are truly ready to accept death as a release from suffering and whether God is not truly being merciful to end the life of disobedient people, even whole populations when God knows their suffering from an intimate perspective.
Just thinking about it I wonder if we would view death differently if God had just put the whole population to sleep, removed His life force from them and then sent the Israelites into the area to bury them.
In other words, no killing of men, women and children by the people of God so that they, God's people didn't have to see the blood and hear the cries of anguish and fear and learn the hard lesson of the consequences of disobedience.
= =
What if God just inspired the leaders to gather the disobedient people together and have them migrate to another area hundreds of miles away where they could live out their existence and then the people of God would just move into a ready made city with no personal effort and without having to trust God for their safety.
I wonder whether we are making too much out of a person's life being cut short.
e.g. "they were too young to die" or their family will miss them so much and may grieve for years and not be able to cope with life apart from their loved one. Aren't these the thoughts and concerns of people who "know not God"?
It may be helpful to consider that God knows what is best for us and if we are sinning to our own hurt and learning habits that will make our lives unbearable such as drugs and crime and other unfulfilling experiences, that it is better to be put to sleep and then brought back when society world wide is under the loving control of our Lord Jesus.
That is what I would prefer for myself or my family members.
Indiana bob
I am no longer afraid of death, as I know it is not the end of me - but I used to fear death for my family and myself.
Your points are all very valid, and from my perspective, all Scripturally sound.
Offcourse, He is Our Loving Heavenly Father, who always knows what is best for each and everyone of His Children, including the disobedient and wicked ones - and He shares all our suffering and pain with us, each step of the way.
Thank you for sharing this with us.
Warmrest Regards.
George
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Dave -
Thank you for articulating your thought process so well; as you do most of the time, apart from when you deliberately use 'cryptic language' in order to make us think a little deeper:
Brenda and Bob. Excellent.
George, if I were translating the word most often translated "evil", I would translate it "Bad". I'd prefer Bad to Evil because Bad carries much less theological baggage. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Both are simple enough for children, yet broad enough to allow the passages in which they are found to indicate "in what way good or bad" or "how good and bad". And they are flexible enough to let growing people actually recognize the difference without religio-speak as they live their lives and experience both.
Now then. I'm a word kinda guy. That's how I think, and how I study. But I know the warning against undue strife over words. Sometimes, however, there is a spot for DUE strife over words. Take away ALL emphasis on "words" from Ray's articles, and they would turn into Ray's pamphlets. :D
OK, imagine you're me for a moment at this very moment. You want very much to communicate something that you know to be good, but you know that this will cause some confusion and turn people away because you're not able to articulate it precisely enough for a web-forum. Confusion is bad. Turning people away is bad. I don't want to do that or have that be result of what I do.
If you can successfully imagine that, then you have a good idea what Paul was saying about his own DOING, and a far better idea than most theologians, arm-chair or professional.
The GOOD that I would do, that I don't do. The BAD that I would NOT do, that I do. Because I'm just me, too weak, un-gifted, and lacking. What a mess. Who can deliver me from this body of death?
All of what you have scribed above, is true - and I agree with all that you have said - including how meticulous Ray was with the true meaning of words.
I am grateful to know how considerate you are not to confuse - yet you have a strong desire not to mislead us.
I fully understand the physical and spiritual significance of Paul's inspired words about himself and each and every one of us - and it took me a lot more than five (5) minutes to get His Understanding of these (His) Words.
Your choice of word to replace 'Evil' with 'Bad' has impact - but unfortunately being 'Bad' today is not so easily understood, anymore than being 'Evil' - hence the dilemma we have.
If I may, I believe, you and I (and I think all of us on this Forum) do in fact agree, at least on the following being True:
1. We should all know that 'not doing Good' to others is contrary to God's Law and Commandments on how we live our daily lives.
2. When anyone of us 'Sins', it is 'not doing Good' - as we break His Law on how we should live our daily lives.
3. God can use 'Evil' from our perspective - to do 'Good' (as indianabob pointed out in his Post on this Thread) from His Perspective, by ending say, a long suffering drug addict's life - to end their pain and suffering, as well as that experienced by their loved ones.
But, without us going through every word translated 'Evil', it is not clear to those 'Without His Knowledge' to understand exactly what any particular Scripture really means when 'Evil' is used (and that is why I always look at the heart desire of anyone doing 'Evil' or 'Bad' - like stealing bread to feed your family is wrong (as we should not steal), from God's Perspective, who judges us all according to the desires in our hearts, this is not classified as 'Evil'.
For example, take:
Revelation 2:2 (KJV)
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
I understand this to mean that the 'Angel at the Church of Ephesus' tried those calling themselves Apostles in the congregation and found them to be liars and 'Evil' as they pretended to represent His Gospel but were not His Apostles; and the 'Evil' (or 'Bad') here, to me, means that He Revealed to the 'Angel at the Church of Ephesus' that those Apostles were false with 'Evil' intent in their hearts to deceive the congregation.
I am very pleased that we have had this exchange of Posts, so that we can all reflect on His Truths for ourselves and gain greater Understanding.
And I hope I have not caused any confusion with my Posts.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Thank you Indianabob. I have been meditating on your words and find them to be very wise and healing. I really needed your reminder.