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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on October 08, 2014, 11:00:29 PM
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After reading when the towers fall by Ray, I’m convince Isis is a club in the hands of God. We are a Christian nation but we are not Christ like are we !
I use to think judgement is on the house of God first, which it is but America and Europe are the house of God, we are Israel.
I use to think the house of God was individuals , the elect who are being judge and who are going through the lake of fire.
What is happening in America is God’s judgement on His people.
"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).
"A SINFUL NATION, a people LADEN WITH INIQUITY, a seed of EVILDOERS, children that are CORRUPTERS: they have FORSAKEN THE LORD… they are gone away BACKWARD… the whole HEAD IS SICK, and the WHOLE HEART FAINT. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO SOUNDNESS IN IT" (Isa. 1:4-6).
"CRY ALOUD, SPARE NOT, LIFT UP YOUR VOICE LIKE A TRUMPET, AND SHOW MY PEOPLE THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS, AND THE HOUSE OF JACOB THEIR SINS" (Isa. 58:1). :(
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Interesting question,
Who are God's people?
Who are gentiles?
I note that the apostle Paul was restrained from taking the gospel to the East into Asia, but instead was led to Rome which eventually led to Europe and then to America and nations that were colonized by Europe/Britain.
So was this intentional that Asia, for the most part, did not receive evangelicals for all those centuries since Paul?
I thought that gentiles included anyone who was not a Jew.
Just wondering how it was that the "church" developed predominately from Rome toward the West. The new world.
Bob
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I don't think America has anything to do with Gods people, God says that the love of money is the root of all evil. So what did Christians do? They put IN GOD WE TRUST on pennies, and now they are the most powerful, riches nation in the world and they give God the credit for it, Something don't smell right with this!!
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Hello Bob
Below is from when the towers fall by Ray.
"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect [God is not contradicting here]. For they are NOT all Israel, which are Israel. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children, but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the FLESH, these are NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: but the children of the PROMISE ARE counted for the seed" (Rom. 9:6-8).
Yes, God intended from the beginning that the TRUE JEW, the SPIRITUAL JEW, the TRUE SEED of Abraham, the TRUE HEIR to the promises was to be the GENTILES!
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Hello Ricky,
take a few minutes and read , when the towers fall.
By Ray,
THE UNITED STATES AND EGYPT IN PROPHECY
If the United States is the primary nation among those making up the "Great House" of symbolic Israel, then we must see evidence of her going to the nations rather than to God for defense from her enemies. But surely as great a nation as the United States would not be involved in so insignificant a nation as today's Egypt, would she? Does the United States...
"…carry their riches upon the shoulders of young donkeys, and their treasures upon the humps of camels to a people [Egypt] that shall not profit them" (Isa. 30:6)?
From: CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR, (April 12, 2004).
Top recipients of US aid each year
Iraq - In 2004, it will become the largest recipient of US aid, receiving $18.4 billion.
Israel - The largest recipient of US largesse in 2003, getting $2.1 billion in military aid annually; $600 million in economic aid.
Egypt - Out of a US foreign aid budget of about $14 billion in 2003, Egypt was the second largest recipient with $1.3 billion in military aid; $615 million for social programs.
SOURCE: COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS
"Most Egyptian economists and businessmen, however, agree that few positive economic reforms have occurred. "
"Tarek Heggy, the former head of Shell Oil in the Middle East, and a prolific writer on Egyptian society: ‘I am not aware of much economic reform.’"
"’US AID has been ineffective at changing economic policy here because CAIRO KNOWS THAT IN THE END IT WILL GET THE US MONEY REGARDLESS OF ITS ECONOMIC POLICY,’ according to Walker, who since leaving the State Department has become head of the Middle East Institute in Washington. ‘Egypt remains as anti-investment as it has ever been because WE HAVE NEVER MADE OUR AID PROGRAM CONDITIONAL,’ says Walker." (CAPS are mine)
And what did God say through Isaiah? What did God call Egypt?
"Their strength is to SIT STILL."
Moffett translates it:
"Dragon DO NOTHING,"
Living Bible,
"Reluctant Dragon" (Isa. 30:7).
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The blind leading the blind.
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Hello J from K,
I hear if the blind leads the blind, both end up in the ditch, why don’t you elaborate further so that we may see?
Don’t you see the hand of God in the news ? America is in decline from what I see and hear, you cannot tell me there is not something horribly wrong with America these days.
America is corrupt from the heel to the head, I don’t see any soundness in America whether it’s a decision from the supreme court to the white house, from the white house down to the homeless man on the street.
One would have to be blind not to see America in decline, America is consumed with greed and lust, her feet are swift to shed blood abroad, there is no soundness left in today’s America .
But when you see the flag of Isis flying over the white house maybe then you'll believe God is passing judgement on America for turning her back on God. >:(
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I agree with Rays assessment and interpretation of prophecy in the towers paper. I also agree with Ray that prophecy is dual meaning it can show spiritual truth as well as physical truth. So when you say you 'used to' think the house of God was individuals, I hope you don't mean that now you don't think that anymore because of what Ray showed in America being the house of God.. It's both..
As far as Isis being a club in His hand.. We shall see but if it is then it has yet to be used to punish America. All Isis has done is antagonize and threaten America.
Something to think about. Tsar Bomba is a nuclear bomb that was tested by the Russians in the 60's. It is the largest nuke to ever explode. Take both nukes that America dropped on Japan and combine their power into one bomb. Think about that for a second. The two atom bombs that were used against Japan.. All that power in one single bomb instead of two separate bombs... Now multiply that one bomb by 1,500... That's one thousand five hundred. That is what Russia has. Another way to consider the power of the Tsar Bomba is to consider every single bomb that was used in the entire world during World War II.. Every single bomb in WWII. Multiply that by 10 and put it in one single bomb. Wrap your head around that!
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Hello Largeli,
I also agree with Rays assessment and interpretation of prophecy in the towers paper, God has given Ray much wisdom , I also believe prophecy is multi layered as well.
I’m starting to see that America and Europe are indeed the house of God but not all in the house of God are the elect of God.
I don’t believe America is going up in flames by way of bombs, I think this virus know as ebola is going to spread like wildfire.
Like Ray said , once there was more right with America than there was wrong with America but today there is more wrong with America than there is right with America.
I was once lead to believe that everything is only spiritual and not physical but that to me is being blind, first the physical then the spiritual but its both not just one.
People in Europe know more about what’s going on in America than most Americans do but that is not to the shame of American’s because our news media no longer reports the news, it’s mostly propaganda.
Also I should like to say, if your right about the Tsar Bomb, I pray the first one goes off over my head because the after math of something like that tells me I’m better off dead.
I don’t see America repenting of her sins nor Europe in fact both are getting worse not better because we are sick from the heel of our feet to our head, we have corrupted ourselves before the face of God. :(
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I think we need to steer this forum back into the right direction.
Judgement is here and has been here;
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Matthew 4:1 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
While we all appreciate and take very seriously what ray has written, worrying, speculating, or discussing this matter any further can do us little good. Does anyone have any extra revelations to add to what the scriptures have already declared? To what ray has written?
I would remind the forum of what we are admonished to do:
Php 4:8-9 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Titus 2
1-13
But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Romans 8: 28"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God."
2 Timothy 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
And probably the most relevent piece for our discussion here:
1 Thessalonians 5: 1-28
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
Rejoice evermore.
Pray without ceasing.
In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
Quench not the Spirit.
Despise not prophesyings.
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Brethren, pray for us.
Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.
I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
God bless,
Alex
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Hello Alex,
Maybe it’s just now I’m seeing God’s judgement through Ray’s writings on America but what new revelation are you looking for ? I have none to offer to anyone ....sorry.
I’m just eluding to what I believe Ray was talking about in when the towers fall, I don’t see where God was judging America 100 years ago, maybe God’s judgement has been going on in this country since the 1960's but in any case its evident.
I see God as the cause of good and evil, who raises nations and tears them down. And Ray felt America is seeing or witnessing the judgement of God on this nation and so don’t I.
Do you feel Ray was speculating when he wrote when the towers fall so people would worry ?
I thought this forum was to discuss what Ray wrote about Alex, so why do you say discussing this matter would do us little good ?
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
When Peter wrote 1 peter 4: 17 America did not exist as a nation so did God pass judgement on a nation that did not exist ?
I think anything Ray wrote about is worth discussing.
Rick, regardless of what ray wrote, I think we are going in circles with this type of discourse. Why did we need to start a new thread on it? Wasn't there a thread that had veered into this subject and in which others were discussing it? We might be confusing newcomers by focusing on material that is rather heavy and in which there is not complete unity of mind amongst the brethren. Its a very complex subject in my humble opinion with many scriptures that need to be accounted for in order to understand the whole. I don't know if anyone possess that complete knowledge yet.
Again, I think ray's paper was important, but what can you do now with a second thread on this subject when one is currently being used for such discussion? I'm not saying I disagree with ray on this matter but I also don't think that dwelling upon it and making it a focus of our minds will bring us any closer to Christ. It may even cause some to be anxious or fearful.
To answer your question: I believe ray did the best he could in earnestness with what he understood by the grace of God.
God calls those things which are not as though they were. We are the house of God and this judgement has been going on since Christ ascended to His Father.
If you feel this is edifying and good for the growth of your brothers and sisters then continue the discussion. I just hope we don't cause any unnecessary fear or confusion among other members with a subject that is so very complex and in which I feel that there is not consensus amongst our brothers and sisters.
God bless,
Alex
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Hello Alex,
I was not aware of a tread that veered into this discussion, when you say we might be confusing new comers on material that is rather heavy, what comes to mind is this politically correct stuff.
As you know Ray has many detractors ,and everything Ray wrote about is very controversial to the many but is it to the few ?
Now I hear on the news that American born people are joining Isis but what blows my mind is this,
"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there if none beside Me. I AM THE LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL [Heb: ra--#7451, ‘bad, evil.’ Same word translated "evil" 442 times in the Old Testament]." (Isaiah 45:6-7).
"Out of the mouth of the Most High proceeds not EVIL and good?" (Lam. 3:38).
"…and experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Old Testament).
"…I [the Lord] will raise up EVIL against you out of your own house…" (II Sam. 12:11).
"…I [the Lord] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great destruction" (Jer. 4:6).
"…thus said the Lord, Behold, I frame EVIL against you, and devise a device against you…" (Jer. 18:11).
"…so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until He have destroyed you from off this good land… (Josh. 23:15).
"What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive EVIL?..." (Job 2:10).
"…shall there be EVIL IN A CITY [New York City?] and the LORD has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
When I see these things that were Prophesied long ago taking place in our times it gives me much faith in our God .
Everyone should be encouraged and not discouraged seeing prophesy happening before our own eyes.
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How many people that read "when The Towers Fall" took it to heart, saw the attack on the WTC as God bringing judgment on the USA, and have repented before God? Only God knows.
How many truly repented in the days of old when God sent many prophets to warn the nation of Israel of impending judgment? Again, only God knows.
The world is full, and especially the United States is full of prophets speaking smooth sayings.
Ray, in my opinion, once again did a good job in, "Exposing Those Who Contradict" Ray said "The unseen hand of God built America, and God can take it away."
Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem, (JerUSAlem) no doubt that was a hard pill to swallow in that day.
Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
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Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
This above is the key -I agree with JFK in relation to the rest...
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Alex why do you suppose Ray wrote that paper in the first place.. Or put it on the home page of the website and had a big picture (the ONLY picture on the page btw)to reference it if he didn't want people to discuss it? On the contrary I say that picture and article is unavoidable to any new comer. So let's not treat it like the elephant in the room that most people wish would just go away..
While I agree that focusing on the "how" or "by what means" judgment will manifest in future events is running in circles and not fruitful, I don't see what Ray wrote as cause for anxiety or fear. I don't think Rick does either. I see it as cause for hope and joyful anticipation. Why would anyone fear our Fathers righteous judgment? Don't we all agree that His judgment produces perfection in us? Why would anyone fear that? If folks read it and feel fear and anxiety then they should bring it to The Lord and address it rather than avoid it. Fear has to do with punishment. Perfect love casts out fear. The day of The Lord will be a terror for some but it should not be so with His elect.
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Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
This above is the key -I agree with JFK in relation to the rest...
Hello Ian.
How can you say the above is the key? That scripture is future tense, God’s judgements are not in the earth at this time !
When God’s judgements are in the earth, then the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness. We know the inhabitants of the earth are not learning righteousness at this time.
Again, no man shall say to another man know the Lord for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. Well, right now the knowledge of the Lord does not fill the earth.
These scriptures will be fulfilled in the future after the resurrection, some scriptures have been fulfilled already others are being fulfilled and the rest of them will be fulfilled after the resurrection.
And I agree with Largeli when he wrote, ( why do you suppose Ray wrote that paper in the first place ? )
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Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
This above is the key -I agree with JFK in relation to the rest...
Hello Ian.
How can you say the above is the key? That scripture is future tense, God’s judgements are not in the earth at this time !
I didn't , blame Jesus - john 12 v 31
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really???? hey mods, where the heck is the lock button. this thread has gone wayyyyyyy beyond discussion. it is now outright debate.
claudia
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Hello claudia,
Thanks, but I don’t mind, anyways, you know all things are of God, that is to say all things work together for good to those who love God.
God Bless you Claudia. :) :) :)
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Friend Rick,
Perhaps I'm not understanding your statement that judgment is NOT in the earth at this time. Do you include the judgment that is being exercised among God's chosen??
I do think that the called and chosen are being judged now.
Do you agree or have a better answer.
Sincerely, Indiana Bob
Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
This above is the key -I agree with JFK in relation to the rest...
Hello Ian.
How can you say the above is the key? That scripture is future tense, God’s judgements are not in the earth at this time !
When God’s judgements are in the earth, then the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness. We know the inhabitants of the earth are not learning righteousness at this time.
Again, no man shall say to another man know the Lord for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth. Well, right now the knowledge of the Lord does not fill the earth.
These scriptures will be fulfilled in the future after the resurrection, some scriptures have been fulfilled already others are being fulfilled and the rest of them will be fulfilled after the resurrection.
And I agree with Largeli when he wrote, ( why do you suppose Ray wrote that paper in the first place ? )
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Rick ,the title of the thread is spot on,
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Like I tried to say in the other thread, the removal of the ways of the "Prince of this World"in you and I - this happens by judgement.
Dont worry about ISIS (signs) or rumours,explosions,tsunamis etc these things MUST happen.
I believe you are being called out, its a hard road,however the more you are caused to take his yoke,the lighter it gets,or the more the ways of this world are removed from you and I (call this "armageddon" if you like) the lighter the load.Then Jesus becomes Lord of you, you are no longer the (slave) son of perdition, but rather you become a Son of God. (heir)
God is BECOMING your/my, Father.
John and Daniel were extremely perturbed at this vision of transition (so was Jesus)
"Father if it be your will, take this Cup..."
Bless you
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Hello Ian,
yes, in that respect are God’s judgement in this world concerning the elect only. :)
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Rick:
Well, God caused 9/11 to happen, and then 7 years later He caused "The Great Recession" to happen as well. Perhaps next year, the next 7 year time frame, something else may happen? I don't doubt that the Lord will bring more evil on this country as a whole for its corruption. Sad, but as God's children, we have hope that others do not have.
Dean
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I believe God's judgments are in all the earth, but not to the great extent they will be in the future.
1st Chronicles 16:14 He is the Lord our God; his judgments are in all the earth.
Psalms 105:7 He is the Lord our God: his judgments are in all the earth.
Joel
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Hello Bob,
I do believe God’s judgements are in the earth at this time for the elect ,the few but not the many during this age, this is my understanding according to Ray’s papers. :)
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Hello Dean,
I definitely agree with your statement that we have hope that others don’t but only in respect that others don’t know that God subjected all in hope.
As you know God is no respecter of persons and so what God is doing for His elect in this age He will do for all others in the next age to come. :)
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I have a ?, How many people here on B.T. believe they are the elect?.
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Hello Ricky,
As I look at my life, I would say, thank God there is no hell, I’m thankful just knowing some of God’s truth and tender mercies towards me. :)
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John 3.16 proves there is no such a place for Hell to exist, ALL will be Saved. Means, there will be nobody to put into Hell. So God would not have created such a place and waste all that heat for no reason.
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Amen Ricky---------Amen :) :) :)
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We can see how fast Ebola spreads like wildfire, if ISiS and Ebola are part of Gods judgement upon America, how is it possible to stop ISIS from shipping Ebola over to America, this could be done in many different ways, many times over. Ricky
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Hello Ricky,
I think its fascinating tying Rays paper when the towers fall with things going on in the news and although its like Largeli said we can go around in circles with it, its still fascinating to me to see how God is bringing this nation down before our eyes, Ray felt this nation is the house of God and so don’t I.
I go to many different news sources trying to get the truth to what is going on world wide and this Isis seems to be a force that is growing by the day, I hear from one news source Isis left a sign on the white house fence saying we are here and also in many other major cities throughout the united states.
I just think again its fascinating reading Rays papers and seeing what Ray was talking about and seeing Gods judgement happening before my eyes, and this ebola is in more than one state by the way also our government refuses to close its borders.
We now have tuberculosis and other diseases here that had not been here for decades, it appears that everything is coming undone in this country and last week I heard on the news some guy took a couple of shots at the white house and another guy actually made his way into the white house and took half a tour for himself.
No, we don’t really know how God is going to bring America to its knees but I do see something brewing all around me.
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Hi Rick, I think His judgements may have been here for quite some time now. Bible says if you live by the sword,{ meaning weapon}, you will die by the sword, the USA lives by the gun. As for these so called pastors, the sword they live by is their tounge .
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Lions, and Tigers, and Bears! Oh my! ::)
The statement that "this nation (the United States) is the house of God".
Where are your two witnesses? Where are the two Scriptures that clearly state that? If you do not have two Scriptures, then you are teaching a falsehood.
Two Scriptures. Not two Scriptures and you tell me what they mean. Two Scriptures that stand on their own and state that the United States is the house of God.
I'm holding my breathe........... :'(
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J from K,
Please don't hold your breathe, you only need to read when the towers fall by Ray and believe.
snippets from when the towers fall, by L Ray Smith,
SEPTEMBER 11, 2001
And lest we get puffed up in the realization that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are indeed the "ISRAEL OF GOD" in prophecy, let us not forget that God’s Church is made up of the "MANY called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 22:14 & Matt. 7:21-23).
And so, although Isaiah 30 speaks of physical, literal Egypt and Judah, and both these nations fulfilled the prophecy of Isa. 30:10-7, this is not, however, the main fulfillment of Isaiah 30 at all. And how can I say that? Because Isaiah 30:8 dates this prophecy to a far distant future fulfillment. Therefore all these symbols were for a future yet unfulfilled event.
We know that Judah went down bearing gifts to Egypt for her to be an ally and protect her against the northern kingdoms, but the real fulfillment is for a larger symbolic Judah and Egypt.
THE UNITED STATES AND EGYPT IN PROPHECY
If the United States is the primary nation among those making up the "Great House" of symbolic Israel, then we must see evidence of her going to the nations rather than to God for defense from her enemies. But surely as great a nation as the United States would not be involved in so insignificant a nation as today's Egypt, would she? Does the United States...
"…carry their riches upon the shoulders of young donkeys, and their treasures upon the humps of camels to a people [Egypt] that shall not profit them" (Isa. 30:6)?
The following chart shows the US foreign aid to Egypt:
NO OTHER TOWER OR WALL COLLAPSE FITS ISAIAH’S PROPHECY
Continuing Isaiah’s prophecy:
"Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach [Heb: perets—‘a break, breach, breaking forth, gap’]
ready to fall [Heb: napahl—‘to fall, cast down, cease, die, fail, fall down, be judged, overthrow, overwhelm, perish’]
SWELLING OUT [Heb: baah--Margin, ‘bulge’]
in a HIGH wall [Heb: sagab—‘lofty, inaccessible, safe, strong, defend, exalt, excellent, high, to be too strong’]
Oh when oh when will people just believe God gave Ray so much understanding. :)
Even Lions, and Tigers, and Bears believe Ray !
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I knew you were a false teacher. I asked you for two Scriptures in support of your statement that the United States is the house of God. Of course, you could not produce them.
Below is something else Ray said. Do try and understand it.
TRUTH NUMBER 6
[A] "…that in the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES every word may be established" (Matt. 18:16).
"…In the mouth of TWO OR THREE WITNESSES shall every word be established" (II Cor. 13:1).
[C] "And I will give power unto my TWO WITNESSES…" (Rev. 11:3).
This particular law of Scripture is constantly violated. We are to have at least a second witness to establish a Scriptural truth or doctrine.
Unfortunately, the Church does not follow this truth of God in establishing doctrine. Truth be known, orthodoxy has not even one witness to support any of their doctrines! Example: The Scriptures tell us that man is "mortal," not "immortal." They teach that man’s soul is immortal. Where do they have a Scripture to support this claim? No Scripture—no witness. Where is their second witness to this claim? No second witness. They will not be encumbered with Scriptures to support their damnable heresies and lies.
God told Adam if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die: "And the Lord God commanded…you shall surely die." (Gen. 2:17). Theologians teach that, "once we are born, we shall NEVER surely die." Say, doesn’t that sound like the very same thing the lying serpent told Eve? Check it out:
"And the serpent said unto the woman, ‘Ye shall NOT surely die"
Can we all agree that the phrase: "shall NOT SURELY die" is a contradiction of the phrase "SHALL SURELY die"?
Does the Church teach what God said or what the serpent said? Why would you prefer to believe what the serpent said rather than what God said? Am I going to fast for anyone?
So do souls actually die, or are they immortal? A "soul" in Hebrew is a "nephesh." Does the Church have "two witnesses" that souls do not die? They don’t have even one. Well then, do we have two witnesses that tell us plainly souls do die?
Yes we do:
"…the soul [Heb: ‘nephesh’] that sins, it [the soul, the ‘nephesh’] shall die. (Say, isn’t that exactly what God taught us back in Gen. 2:17? Of course). (Ezek. 18:4). Doesn’t this then contradict both the lie of Satan and the Church?
"The soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE" (Ezek. 18:20).
Jesus tells us in parable of two great witnesses:
"Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure, NEW AND OLD" (Matt. 13:52).
What "new and old" treasures do "scribes" preserve for us regarding the "kingdom of heaven?" Why the NEW Covenant Scriptures and the OLD Covenant Scriptures, of course. And both the Old (Deut. 17:6 & 19:15), and the New (II Cor. 13:1 & Matt. 18:16) command that we must have two witnesses to establish every Word of God.
I will keep this truth short, as it overlaps with the next spiritual truth # 7 which requires that we compare and match spiritual with spiritual.
The next time your pastor mentions "immortal souls," "Christians going to heaven," "Jesus being in hell for three days," "not all men will be saved," "Christian tithing," "consciousness in death," "resurrection of the body," "parables make the teaching clear," "man’s will being free and independent of God," and dozens of other such nonsense, ask him to give you two Scriptures to support each of his unscriptural heresies.
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Easy John.. No need for accusing someone of being a false teacher. Rick isn't bringing his own teaching, he is discussing what Ray wrote. This is a place for that isn't it? A place to discuss Rays writings and what we've learned from them?
Ray is the one who said that America is the Israel of God. You can disagree with it but if you think Ray was a false teacher then why are you here?
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Easy John.. No need for accusing someone of being a false teacher. Rick isn't bringing his own teaching, he is discussing what Ray wrote. This is a place for that isn't it? A place to discuss Rays writings and what we've learned from them?
Ray is the one who said that America is the Israel of God. You can disagree with it but if you think Ray was a false teacher then why are you here?
I am not accusing just stating a fact. A Scriptural Truth must be supported by at least two Scriptural witnesses.
In his first post, Rick stated that America and Europe were the house of God. Later, he stated this nation (United States) was the house of God. I asked for the two Scriptures in support of the statements made.
Neither he or you are able to provide the two witnesses. Thus, the statements are weighed in the balance and found wanting. As always, false teachers just squirm when their errors are pointed out. The Spirit of God cuts like a sharp sword, like fire, ouch!
P.S. If you guys truly are interested in knowing who are the Israel of God, see Galatians 6:16.
If you really want to know the Seed of Abraham and the true descendants of Abraham, then read intently Galatians chapter 3. The one that starts with, "O you dear idiots of Galatia" (Phillips translation). ;D
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I don't think Rays towers paper is categorized as 'scriptural truth' in the first place. I'd categorize it as 'prophetic interpretation'. So your accusations are misguided.
Again , Ray is the one who wrote that the Christian democracies of America and Europe are the Israel of God. Your accusation of 'false teacher' falls on THE TEACHER. Ray.
I don't believe Ray was a false teacher nor a false prophet.
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I have a ?, How many people here on B.T. believe they are the elect?.
The nature of the ego would probably dictate that everyone thinks they're the elect. Everyone is right in his own eyes.
You know a tree by its fruit.
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Hello J from K,
Why do you call me a teacher , I never proclaimed to be a teacher. Anyways I only eluded to what Ray is teaching.
Why ask me for two scriptures ? This is Rays teaching not mine, the burden of proof is yours J.F.k not mine , why don’t you provide two scriptures that say America is not the house of God.
Which is greater, two scriptures or the sum of God’s word. Your argument is with L. Ray. Smith not me.
I won’t add anything more, than what Largeli had already said.
God bless you J from K. :)
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I would like to say there is coming a greater punishment on those who falsely interpret Gods word,and teach it,(and I'm not referring to this site or the folks here, as this is a discussion)
Im referring to fraudsters who initially spoke lies into us, just as the devil did to Eve, this punishment will make whatever is happening in this world look like "Peanuts". I mean, you try and swim with a huge rock attached to your neck "spiritually speaking" they will always be scheming, always finding ways to get more,never at peace,always covering up,backbiters,God haters,slanderers... never in the freedom we have.
All the speculation in this thread is exactly that - when the King takes his place on the throne of your /my heart we will see the catastrophe that is in us... he will show us these things.
To quote - 'If you believe this towers word is literal.... why do you still have eyes,hands and feet'.
Mat 18v9 Mat 5v29
All this stuff is happening in your heart,(Paul says there is a War,going on,correction.... RAGING in him)
You are instructed not to be alarmed at these rumors and war stories. He who began this work in you will complete it.
If you do what the King says , he is your Lord.("I say unto you there WILL be wars and rumours of wars and when you hear,see these things..... DO NOT BE ALARMED")
Mat 24v6,Mark 13v7
There have been plagues and wars and towers since the beginning - 6 million Jews died within 2-3 years, more than 1/2 a century ago, no tsunami or earthquake or falling towers matches that,The black plague devastated many millions, centuries ago there is no thing quite like it since.There are literally millions of people starving yes starving, right now.
Come on, if someone gained access to the white house, so did a streaker gain access to a packed rugby stadium, what is the white house anyway ?another idol/tower - fire the CIA employee responsible.
WAKE UP O SLEEPER AND ARISE FROM THE DEAD AND...
Ephesians 5:14 ;1 thes 5v6 ;2 tim 2v26
"ALL HUMANITY BELONGS TO GOD" including, Terrorists,fraudster,gangsters,imposters,murderers,rapists,molesters,politicians ISIS,accountants and anyone else i may have left out.
Ps 24v1;I cor 10:26
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Maybe the house of God is not a country, but a group of people called Christians. God did not label Jesus a Christian and made him the God of that religion, men did that. I have always believed that anything man creates, God hates. Ricky
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I would like to say there is coming a greater punishment on those who falsely interpret Gods word,and teach it,(and I'm not referring to this site or the folks here, as this is a discussion)
Im referring to fraudsters who initially spoke lies into us, just as the devil did to Eve, this punishment will make whatever is happening in this world look like "Peanuts". I mean, you try and swim with a huge rock attached to your neck "spiritually speaking" they will always be scheming, always finding ways to get more,never at peace,always covering up,backbiters,God haters,slanderers... never in the freedom we have.
All the speculation in this thread is exactly that - when the King takes his place on the throne of your /my heart we will see the catastrophe that is in us... he will show us these things.
To quote - 'If you believe this towers word is literal.... why do you still have eyes,hands and feet'.
Mat 18v9 Mat 5v29
All this stuff is happening in your heart,(Paul says there is a War,going on,correction.... RAGING in him)
You are instructed not to be alarmed at these rumors and war stories. He who began this work in you will complete it.
If you do what the King says , he is your Lord.("I say unto you there WILL be wars and rumours of wars and when you hear,see these things..... DO NOT BE ALARMED")
Mat 24v6,Mark 13v7
There have been plagues and wars and towers since the beginning - 6 million Jews died within 2-3 years, more than 1/2 a century ago, no tsunami or earthquake or falling towers matches that,The black plague devastated many millions, centuries ago there is no thing quite like it since.There are literally millions of people starving yes starving, right now.
Come on, if someone gained access to the white house, so did a streaker gain access to a packed rugby stadium, what is the white house anyway ?another idol/tower - fire the CIA employee responsible.
WAKE UP O SLEEPER AND ARISE FROM THE DEAD AND...
Ephesians 5:14 ;1 thes 5v6 ;2 tim 2v26
"ALL HUMANITY BELONGS TO GOD" including, Terrorists,fraudster,gangsters,imposters,murderers,rapists,molesters,politicians ISIS,accountants and anyone else i may have left out.
Ps 24v1;I cor 10:26
:)
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"ALL HUMANITY BELONGS TO GOD" including, Terrorists,fraudster,gangsters,imposters,murderers,rapists,molesters,politicians ISIS,accountants and anyone else i may have left out.
Ps 24v1;I cor 10:26
Hey Ian,
I don't mind you placing us accountants with those others, but putting accountants in the same category as politicians? That's a low blow man. I'm extremely hurt. :'(
JFK the CPA
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Dear Friend J f K,
Reference some accountants.
Commercial banks, investment banks, insurance companies, lawyers and CPAs and others who handle our money have in the past been lumped together as folks who skim the cream from the top of the work of the common people.
Of course we do understand that not all lawyers are like our career politicians, seeking benefit mainly for themselves, but that is the reputation they are tainted with by association in today's business world.
In reference to local & State politicians who have been accused of malfeasance the local term is "cooking the books". Of course I know that the criticism may be unfair, but we need more honest professionals such as you to dispel that reputation and encourage others to do likewise.
Just saying what came to mind. No critique intended.
I-Bob
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Dear Friend J f K,
Reference some accountants.
Commercial banks, investment banks, insurance companies, lawyers and CPAs and others who handle our money have in the past been lumped together as folks who skim the cream from the top of the work of the common people.
Of course we do understand that not all lawyers are like our career politicians, seeking benefit mainly for themselves, but that is the reputation they are tainted with by association in today's business world.
In reference to local & State politicians who have been accused of malfeasance the local term is "cooking the books". Of course I know that the criticism may be unfair, but we need more honest professionals such as you to dispel that reputation and encourage others to do likewise.
Just saying what came to mind. No critique intended.
I-Bob
I-Bob,
Please, please tell me that you did not take my previous post seriously. It was entirely a joke. A great joke I thought. If I have to explain the magnificence of the humor then it won't be funny.
However, if you took my post seriously, I will now try to give a serious response: Well, I-Bob, being the "honest professional" that I am, I am hard at work every day bringing about world peace, stopping hunger, healing the sick, and reforming women with loose morals. That is of course due to my being a wonderful Christian gentleman helping Jesus to bring about good. How is that for a serious response? Great, huh?
John
P.S. If you really took my previous post seriously, then thank you, thank you, thank you for the dose of laughter that spontaneously came forth from me.
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Here is an old email from Ray..
I don't have tapes or CD's to send out, but we have started to post some of my Home Bible studies on our Forum so that you can listen to them. Be sure to listen to this Sunday's study: "WHEN THE TOWERS FALL." I think that it will be a real revelation to many people. Some people commented on the Towes of the World Trade Center as it might relate to Bible Prophecy, but most discounted it as not being relevant for various human reasonings. I taught on this at a Conference after 9/11, but I have never made my teaching public on our site. This we will now do.
Does anyone know if there is any audio from Ray on the towers? He said in this email there was a Sunday study to listen to..
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Well John my friend,
If you are accomplishing all of that, then you could be a member of the Salvation Army who is out there among the women of loose morals, handing out tracts and trying to convince those women to get a better job and fulfill their true potential. I congratulate you for your selfless attitude in the operation of your personal "rescue mission". ;D
Just a little light humor between us boys. 8)
Kindly offered, Ole (almost 80) Indiana Bob
However, if you took my post seriously, I will now try to give a serious response: Well, I-Bob, being the "honest professional" that I am, I am hard at work every day bringing about world peace, stopping hunger, healing the sick, and reforming women with loose morals. That is of course due to my being a wonderful Christian gentleman helping Jesus to bring about good. How is that for a serious response? Great, huh?
John
P.S. If you really took my previous post seriously, then thank you, thank you, thank you for the dose of laughter that spontaneously came forth from me.
[/quote]
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"ALL HUMANITY BELONGS TO GOD" including, Terrorists,fraudster,gangsters,imposters,murderers,rapists,molesters,politicians ISIS,accountants and anyone else i may have left out.
Ps 24v1;I cor 10:26
Hey Ian,
I don't mind you placing us accountants with those others, but putting accountants in the same category as politicians? That's a low blow man. I'm extremely hurt. :'(
JFK the CPA
Ok John, i take that back - can you "sort" my tax returns as a trade off ;D
http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accountanttown.com%2Fsite%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F08%2Faccounting.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accountanttown.com%2Fsite%2Ffunny-accountant-pictures&h=320&w=290&tbnid=DgBE7zYdS-Q2FM%3A&zoom=1&docid=s9H4owHKRPoPQM&ei=KjE-VKCaD4zg7QbLsoHgAg&tbm=isch&ved=0CDAQMygQMBA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1149&page=2&start=9&ndsp=14 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Rick:
Well, God caused 9/11 to happen, and then 7 years later He caused "The Great Recession" to happen as well. Perhaps next year, the next 7 year time frame, something else may happen? I don't doubt that the Lord will bring more evil on this country as a whole for its corruption. Sad, but as God's children, we have hope that others do not have.
Dean
You're right Dean
God caused 9/11. God caused Americas politicians to recite Isaiah 9:10 the next day, and again on the 3rd anniversary of 9/11 as well. Isaiah 9:10 was ancient Israel's statement of defiance towards God for allowing ancient Israel to be attacked by her enemies... Weird huh? Why would Americas politicians declare a statement of defiance towards God? Well because God hid the meaning of this verse from them and caused them to not realize that it was a statement of defiance and rebellion towards God.
Isaiah 9:10
10 The bricks are fallen down, but we will build with hewn stones: the sycomores are cut down, but we will change them into cedars.
Not only did God cause Isaiah 9:10 to be declared on national tv for all to witness but God also caused one single tree to be uprooted at ground zero. A sycamore (just as Isaiah 9:10 says). God caused man to make a bronze sculpture of this uprooted sycamore and display this sculpture on Wall Street. Those of us who have studied Rays towers paper understand the importance of Wall Street and symbolism. God caused man to attempt to rebuild those fallen bricks with hewn stone (just as Isaiah 9:10 says) as the corner stone and God caused man to celebrate Americas "spirit of defiance" with that hewn stone.
7 years later in September 2008 God caused the recession. God caused the stock market to crash 777.67 points which is 7%. Again, the importance of symbolism. 777 points. 7%. 7 years after God caused America to be attacked, God caused the market to crash.
These things can be dismissed as insignificant but they can't be dismissed as false. I, however, agree with Ray and the scriptures that God is in control of everything. There is no wasted movement in Gods plan. Not one single atom will move without Gods control and intention.
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Hello Ian,
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but its to my knowledge what the elect are going through here and now all others will go through the same thing there and then.
God is no respecter of persons, so how have you come to feel there is a greater punishment for people who are as we, without free will?
I do agree from what I understand that the towers or mountains in one’s life are more important in being brought down by Christ but Ray does speak of the W.T.C. as being a significant date in human history, relating it with prophecy.
If one sees the hand of God moving in the physical as Ray was pointing out why look the other way is all I’m saying. :)
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Hello Largeli and Dean,
I find this prophecy Ray is speaking about in when the towers fall absolutely fascinating, I feel blessed to be a witness to these things happening.
It does testifies to me the end of the age is near, how near I don’t know but none the less this is fascinating stuff Ray has uncovered in the book of Isaiah.
We are coming into the next years as you know, 201 the towers, 2008 the famine 2015 maybe ebola. :'(
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I hate to bring boring Scripture matters up when we have all this exciting prophesy stuff.
Does anyone have at least two Scriptures concerning an Ebola epidemic in 2015?
Or, will the prophets among us be making it up as they go?
Just asking.
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Hello John,
No John, I don’t have two scriptures to show anything pertaining to ebloa but I do listen to the news and I see the writing on the wall john. No John, I’m no prophet either, so I won’t be making anything up.
I directed my comments to Largeli and Dean who believe what Ray wrote about when the towers fall as I do, From your comments on this thread I think you don’t believe Rays paper on when the towers fall and that is your prerogative, you’ll have no argument from me. :)
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Hello Ian,
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding but its to my knowledge what the elect are going through here and now all others will go through the same thing there and then.
God is no respecter of persons, so how have you come to feel there is a greater punishment for people who are as we, without free will?
I do agree from what I understand that the towers or mountains in one’s life are more important in being brought down by Christ but Ray does speak of the W.T.C. as being a significant date in human history, relating it with prophecy.
If one sees the hand of God moving in the physical as Ray was pointing out why look the other way is all I’m saying. :)
And we were getting along just fine Rick, now look what you've gone an done....
God is no respecter of persons, so how have you come to feel there is a greater punishment for people who are as we, without free will?
heres What I actually said and meant .."Im referring to fraudsters who initially spoke lies into us,meaning (it could be our sunday school teacher,1st Pastor, Moms,Dads whoever was used to sow these lies we once believed - some still believe the "twisted" version) just as the devil did to Eve,
"Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it".We however know that Christ has come to destroy these works in us and God will raise us up (resurrect) us,from these lies.
This punishment, for them that done this, will make whatever is happening in this world look like "Peanuts". I mean, you try and swim with a huge rock attached to your neck "spiritually speaking" they will always be scheming, always finding ways to get more,never at peace,always covering up,backbiters,God haters,slanderers... never in the freedom we have".
Ray does speak of the W.T.C. as being a significant date in human history, relating it with prophecy.
The relative may be Rays understanding/interpretation and Ray may have been led to relate Sept 2002 to Isaiah - The actual is Christ in us, the hope of glory. Ray did write this paper early on.
I believe (looking at later papers ) there was a significant amount of growth in the way Ray understood the scriptures,spiritually speaking.
If one sees the hand of God moving in the physical as Ray was pointing out why look the other way is all I’m saying.
The physical is most significant 1 Cor 15 v 46 however that way of thinking is put to death, Rom 6v6 - Like I alluded to, Ray matured, as are you and I maturing, thats the process.We experience a "thing" we grow ...we experience it again we grow each experience causes growth. When you have experienced something 7 times over, you are complete in him.
I MUST ad... that "thing", that you/I are being purified in,is one thing, there are many "things" in us,not all are being worked on at the same time -
I did try start a thread earlier, on the miracles Jesus (performs in us)- Notice the 1st Miracle, WE are changed from Water into Wine this is the 1st step The water of the word becomes Wine.This is relative to us who are being called...Your/My old way of thinking "WILL surely die"or if you like, the watery understanding we once had, will DIE.
Its all about you and how a loving father has you in mind He used Jesus his one and only son to demonstrate what will/has to happen to YOU - ask, he will show you.
I can write on the towers from my understanding and relate certain scriptures to prove it ... what if I told you it was an inside Job,the Towers were heavily insured just prior to the kamikaze style attack. (how did the owner know) What if I told you Oil was the target, envy,greed and the fear of not having, was the sin-
These traits do not only exist in "Americans"...There is plenty greed in South Africans,yet only 2 families in SA were devastated by this cruel deed.
To ME Ray was a type of John the Baptist - he was used to point Me in the right direction,for this I thank God .
The physical impact of this mammoth event in Sept 2002, most assuredly has more questions than answers. The destruction however,has happened (past) the loss of life since that event, with resultant wars, is even more catastrophic.
I must say, from the artist impressions,the new TOWERS look shiny and new and far,far better...
Literally speaking....,according to scripture,and, if Sept 2002 was indeed America's punishment....
When the shiny, new,clean TOWERS are completed,can we say ...Physical Americans are going to be Seven fold Worse??? >Matt 12 v45
My prayer is that The Father show us the Towers in us and that he dismantle them himself, thru Jesus, not al qaeda.
2 sam 24 v 14 - 1 chron 21 v13 Matt 10:28
May God bless you, with more spiritual understanding
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Hello Ian,
After reading your last reply I realized we walk by faith not by sight, there are always distractions along ones walk with Christ and through the distraction comes understanding as one is reminded of the truth of God rather than the lies of the wicked one.
Although 9/11 may be a significant date in human history there is nothing more significant than the towers in one's life being torn down by Christ.
And we were getting along just fine Ian, now look what you gone and done, bringing me back to the spiritual again.
God bless you my friend and brother in Christ Jesus. :)
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I realized we walk by faith not by sight,
;)
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Hello Largeli and Dean,
I find this prophecy Ray is speaking about in when the towers fall absolutely fascinating, I feel blessed to be a witness to these things happening.
It does testifies to me the end of the age is near, how near I don’t know but none the less this is fascinating stuff Ray has uncovered in the book of Isaiah.
We are coming into the next years as you know, 201 the towers, 2008 the famine 2015 maybe ebola. :'(
Hi Rick
Ya I likewise feel very blessed. Undeservedly blessed to have my entire understanding of this world turned upside down over the last few years. There is revelation in Rays towers paper that is absolutely fascinating. I feel humbled to be witnessing the things we are witnessing.
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Hello Largeli and Dean,
I find this prophecy Ray is speaking about in when the towers fall absolutely fascinating, I feel blessed to be a witness to these things happening.
It does testifies to me the end of the age is near, how near I don’t know but none the less this is fascinating stuff Ray has uncovered in the book of Isaiah.
We are coming into the next years as you know, 201 the towers, 2008 the famine 2015 maybe ebola. :'(
Hi Rick
Ya I likewise feel very blessed. Undeservedly blessed to have my entire understanding of this world turned upside down over the last few years.
Hello Largeli,
I think I understand what you mean, its awesome knowing and understanding some truth in this life.
Since I been reading Ray’s papers, life makes sense to me. It doesn’t make life easier but I have a great foundation now and I lost the attitude, life sucks then you die. I see thing in a different prospective and I believe you understand what I’m saying.
My outlook in life has change so much, even my political views have change and I’m no longer interested in voting especially in these times because I believe the care takers of this country have feet that are swift to shed blood abroad which I will take no part of.
I don’t know nor care to know if I’m one of God’s elect but what I do know is I pray for Christ’s return and reign with all the power of heaven and put down all types and forms of evil, I know evil is a necessary thing for all to become like God but I do hate evil and can hardly wait for God to discard it. :)