bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Brenda on May 11, 2017, 03:36:18 AM
-
I found this written by KAT on 17 September 2016 - But what most cannot see is that there are two separate seeds that are in the world from this account, one of the seeds is from Adam and Eve, God's chosen and the line that would continue all the way to Christ's birth. While there is another real physical/literal seed spoken of... if you cannot see that the "serpent" was not a snake, but a living human and could only be those people living at the time Adam was formed and brought to life, then you cannot understand this.
My question here is, is Satan a man, and if so, where in Scripture do we find this description of Satan?
-
Good morning Brenda,
As far as i know, there is no account of a man being possessed by another man. Scripture shows however, that men have been possessed by demons.
Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve."
Luke 8:29, 30 "29 For Jesus had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was bound with chains and shackles, he had broken the chains and been driven by the demon into solitary places"
I don't think i read that post from Kat that you referenced, but nonetheless i'm unsure if the serpent was a man in the strictest sense. I am more inclined to believe it was a man possessed by a demon (Satan in particular).
Luke 10:17,18 "17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in Your name.” 18 So He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.…"
Would be hard to imagine Satan being a man. For one thing he would have died a long time ago. Another, as a man he would have no power to tempt Jesus. Third, it would be difficult for a man to go through the earth seeking people to "devour".
Just my 2 cents.
Stello
-
Brenda,
I don't believe Kat meant that Satan was/is literally a man; she meant the serpent/Satan entered a human, as in the Scripture Stello referenced ("Satan entered Judas..."). Also, Matthew 16:23: "Jesus turned and said to Peter, 'Get behind me, Satan!...'" Peter was not literally Satan.
-
Thank you so much for your guidance. I thought that much, that Kat was most probably just using this example but referring to a person rather than Satan. Sometimes, Satan can be very sly, trying to confuse our little brains.
-
Hi Brenda,
Also from the Strong's concordance 5172 & 5175 the word translated serpent or snake
can mean "hiss" or "whisper" or "enchanter/enchanted".
So could it be that Eve heard a whisper in her mind and was enchanted by that means to take it upon herself to disobey.
Since Satan is invisible and spiritual why did she have to "see" a serpent a physical manifestation.
Perhaps a thought just formed in her mind, put there by Satan that made her curious.
Then she thought further and heard what she took to be an answer.
Especially considering that the Bible says she was deceived whereas Adam was not deceived.
Thanks for the question, Indiana Bob
-
Hi Brenda,
Also from the Strong's concordance 5172 & 5175 the word translated serpent or snake
can mean "hiss" or "whisper" or "enchanter/enchanted".
So could it be that Eve heard a whisper in her mind and was enchanted by that means to take it upon herself to disobey.
Since Satan is invisible and spiritual why did she have to "see" a serpent a physical manifestation.
Perhaps a thought just formed in her mind, put there by Satan that made her curious.
Then she thought further and heard what she took to be an answer.
Especially considering that the Bible says she was deceived whereas Adam was not deceived.
Thanks for the question, Indiana Bob
That's interesting Bob. That is, that "serpent" can be translated as "hiss" or "whisper".
But then again, Kat was quoted as saying that there were two seeds in the garden. Two real physical literal seeds. Could that be true if the serpent was only a thought/whisper in Eves mind?
-
Brenda -
Regarding who Satan is:
I found this written by KAT on 17 September 2016 - But what most cannot see is that there are two separate seeds that are in the world from this account, one of the seeds is from Adam and Eve, God's chosen and the line that would continue all the way to Christ's birth. While there is another real physical/literal seed spoken of... if you cannot see that the "serpent" was not a snake, but a living human and could only be those people living at the time Adam was formed and brought to life, then you cannot understand this.
My question here is, is Satan a man, and if so, where in Scripture do we find this description of Satan?
Here is the teaching from Ray that may help you find what you are looking for:
https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html
Warmest Regards.
George
-
As far as I've seen so far, Ray did NOT teach the 'serpent's seed' doctrine nor the 'pre-Adamic race' doctrine. I've examined both of these along the way, tossed both aside, and would have picked up on it had Ray gotten into it.
I won't argue for or against either here.
Won't be much help to you if I can't remember the exact YouTube video (so I apologize in advance) but I do recall a YouTube video where Ray was talking about Cain and Abel and how after God exiled Cain for murdering Abel, Cain complained that anyone who found him would kill him.. I can't remember Rays exact words but In the teaching he used Cains words to show that there may have been "others" on the earth at that time... but even if there were "others" at the time of Caines exile; I suppose that doesn't mean that those "others" were there pre-Adam. Dunno.
-
https://youtu.be/2AbrPxV1uQU (https://youtu.be/2AbrPxV1uQU)
-
Hi Folks,
If the Adam that God used as the progenitor of descendants leading to Christ was not the first, how do we reconcile the blood line of Jesus the second Adam?
Were those others created as a group similar to a group of Elk or Bears or as pairs of adults but in various locations throughout the earth?
Was the male created first and the woman taken out of it for spiritual reasons or did that not matter for the others who came before?
Regarding the animal population: since they reproduce very rapidly with minimal gestation periods and rapid sexual maturity in temperate climates such as earth was near the equator why could not Adam have begun counting and naming them sometime after the first birthing season just as he is assumed to have done with his own children later in his life. After all wasn't Adam alive for some time before Eve was produced and prior to the birth of his perhaps hundreds of children, grandchildren?
-
You have problems with what Ray mentions in the above video.
Who was going to kill Cain if the only other two persons on earth were his parents? Unless you believe his parents would kill him which seems very unlikely considering their relationship with God. And if they did intend murder Cain do you think it would not be worthy to be recorded in the scriptures?
Where did Cain's wife come from?
Seth, Adam and Eve's third child is recorded.
Did Eve have other children who were not deemed important enough to be recorded?
Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Where did Nod come from? Adam and Eve's unrecorded children?
Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
But Eve was not the mother of Adam was she? And Adam was one of the living.
Perhaps something special and spiritual started with Adam and Eve that continues to this day.
If Adam and Eve lived about 6000 years ago and they were the first humans, why is there proof that people inhabited this planet 50,000 to 100,000 years ago?
-
Thanks Dennis,
I don't have an answer except to say that the Bible doesn't seem to limit Adam's progeny to a certain time frame prior to the murder of Abel by Cain.
Could it have been after each of them had extensive families and these two old guys had been competing for decades? Didn't it take quite a bit of time for each of them to learn their animal husbandry or crop skills and to build a family? I cannot find any reference to Cain's length of life, but many of that day lived for centuries and scripture doesn't say for example after two years this happened it only says what happened next that was important enough to record. Gen 5:1 says that Seth didn't come along until Adam was 130 years old, plenty of time for a large population to have accumulated wasn't it? I think we may assume that Eve remained fertile up until that event when a son that resembled Adam was produced. Gen 5:3 says in Adam's likeness.
I do realize that some events are not explained to our human satisfaction and we will have to wait a little longer to learn the whole story. :D
Thanks for your reply,
Regards, indiana bob
-
Gen 5:1 says that Seth didn't come along until Adam was 130 years old, plenty of time for a large population to have accumulated wasn't it?
Here is the first mention of Seth:
Gen 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
You would think if "God had appointed" Eve dozens of other "seeds instead of Abel" who established new cities, etc., they would have been mentioned and their descendants recorded just like Seth's descendants. Especially if any of them were male.
After this Seth is barely mentioned other than having children and how long he lived.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
Were all these other phamtom "seeds instead of Abel" that preceded Seth not "in his own likeness, after his image"?
And the above verse does not say Seth came along when Adam was 130 years old. It simply says "Adam lived an hundred and thirty years."
Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
There is no mention of these phantom children of Eve in "the book of the generations of Adam."
-
All -
Genesis 1 (KJV):
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Genesis 2 (KJV):
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
As Genesis 1 is the full Creation, and then God Rested from all his work on the seventh day - and Adam and Eve were then made after the full Creation (and after He Created Mankind) - does this mean that God continued His Work of Creation after the six days?
Kind Regards.
George
-
God put things into motion.
Grass still grows and multiplies but that does not mean God is creating grass everyday.
-
God put things into motion.
Grass still grows and multiplies but that does not mean God is creating grass everyday.
Would this apply to all living things or just some? I know Ray wrote that God does create people. Not just putting the human race into motion by creating the originals. Are humans the only living things that God creates?
From the Lucifer Hoax Paper:
ARE BABIES BORN, OR DOES GOD CREATE THEM?
Whether one is born of a woman or created directly out of the dust of the ground as was Adam, they are both "creations of God." Here is Scriptural proof that created can be applied to those born of a woman:
"But now thus says the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed you, O Israel..." (Isa. 43:1).
"...bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him; yea, I have made him" (Isa. 43:6-7).
"Thus says the Lord God concerning the Ammonites... I will judge you [Ammonites] in the place where you were created..." (Ezek. 21:28 & 30).
"Have we not all one father? Has not one God created US [ALL mankind]" (Mal. 2:10).
-
So it would seem to George's question
As Genesis 1 is the full Creation, and then God Rested from all his work on the seventh day - and Adam and Eve were then made after the full Creation (and after He Created Mankind) - does this mean that God continued His Work of Creation after the six days?
The answer would be "yes" because God is still creating (unless I'm misunderstanding what Ray wrote)... or perhaps are we still in the 6th day?
-
God has a plan:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Before the foundation of the world includes Adam and Eve.
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Everything in God's plan has and is coming true.
-
Steven, I hope I can rest your mind by saying that Ray did NOT go into any theological tangents regarding who this "serpent" was, even though he did teach that there were people before "Adam".
I've gone back and forth and here and there on this matter (an all related to it). From my perspective, it is MOST important to remember (and learn if we have not) that no scripture is it's own interpretation. I've said on this forum before that my "faith" is not in any creation "explanation". I simply wasn't there, and I have great biblical company in that. My "faith" is in Jesus Christ.
I can't trace my lineage back further than a handful of generations. Few of us can do much better. All I know is that all of "my people" were sinners, and that all but my mother are dead. I really don't care much about "Adam" or "Eve" or Cain and Abel, or Seth...or the Serpent. What they represented (whether in history or in inspired literature) is true, true, true.
It's is GRACE which is "super-abundant" over anything and everything that flowed from Genesis 3. I don't care much what anybody's "opinion" is on these matters. As long as they don't tell me that "the bible says" what the "Bible doesn't say" in support of their imaginings.
-
Largeli, I'm too busy to do a proper word study on that English translation. But let me say this with a clear head: YOU were created in the womb. The proof is that YOU are YOU and not anybody else, and nobody else is YOU. But remember that not even the heavens and the earth were created out of nothing.
YOU were also formed in the womb, as were all of us. It was the "forming" that made you what you were in the beginning. What you are now is from a different sort of forming, in measure.
"But now thus says the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed you, O Israel..." (Isa. 43:1).
"...bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him; yea, I have made him" (Isa. 43:6-7).
"Thus says the Lord God concerning the Ammonites... I will judge you [Ammonites] in the place where you were created..." (Ezek. 21:28 & 30).
"Have we not all one father? Has not one God created US [ALL mankind]" (Mal. 2:10).
Well, hasn't HE? If I could trace my lineage back to "Adam" and "Eve", I've STILL not gone back far enough, according to Scripture.
-
All -
Is Our Saviour not the Saviour of all the world; and are we sure that there are two types of mankind - and that not all mankind came from Eve?
Does Acts 17:26 refer back to a single man, the original created man?
Acts 17:26 (NIV):
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.
Acts 17:26 (Complete Jewish Bible) (CJB):
“From one man he made every nation living on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the limits of their territories and the periods when they would flourish.
Acts 17:26 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition):
And hath made of one, all mankind, to dwell upon the whole face of the earth, determining appointed times, and the limits of their habitation.
Acts 17:26 (Wycliffe Bible) (WYC):
and made of one all the kind of men [for] to inhabit on all the face of the earth, determining times ordained, and terms of the dwelling of them [and terms of habitation, or dwelling, of them],
Acts 17:26 (Philips):
From one forefather he has created every race of men to live over the face of the whole earth.
Is 2 Corinthians 5:14 referring to two types of mankind (the pre-Adamic race and those that came from Eve); and if not, does it refer only to the Adamic race - and if so, what happened to the pre-Adamic race?
2 Corinthians 5:14 (Complete Jewish Bible) (CJB):
For the Messiah’s love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead),
2 Corinthians 5:14 (GNT):
We are ruled by the love of Christ, now that we recognize that one man died for everyone, which means that they all share in his death.
2 Corinthians 5:14 (NLV):
For the love of Christ puts us into action. We are sure that Christ died for everyone. So, because of that, everyone has a part in His death.
2 Corinthians 5:14 (YLT):
for the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died,
2 Corinthians 5:14 (MSG):
Our firm decision is to work from this focused center: One man died for everyone. That puts everyone in the same boat. He included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life, a far better life than people ever lived on their own.
Does all this fit into "the sum of His Word is Truth"?
Warmest Regards.
George
-
Biblical Dates
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AnB2iXgII5U
Ray says "chronologically" which he says may not be exact due to the skipping over of generations; Adam was created about 4000 BC. That's just over 6000 years ago.
The Earth is Very Old
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2yt1MY_pJd8
Ray says that from an evolutionary standpoint mankind has been here for 50,000 to 100,000 years.
I personally do not see monsters arise from thinking about these things, even so, would I be wrong to believe that Ray wasn't afraid of whatever monsters may arise from musing these things? Of what value would my faith be if I hadn't stared a few monsters in the face?
If we're to be child like in our faith does that mean just accepting what we've been taught by others without constantly questioning and testing it all? When I think of a child I think of how children ask lots of questions and explore all possibilities. The "why?", "how come?", "what about?", "what if?" Sometimes seems to have no end when teaching a child. Eventually it gets annoying or perhaps even threatening to the adults own beliefs and the adults sooner or later teach the children to stop questioning and just conform or believe. This is especially evident in religion.. probably more so than anywhere else.
-
Cheekie, none of the translations you posted contain the word "blood" that is in the original Greek. Here, the KJV is closer. Along with two "literal" versions.
Act 17:26 AndG5037 hath madeG4160 ofG1537 oneG1520 bloodG129 allG3956 nationsG1484 of menG444 for to dwellG2730 onG1909 allG3956 theG3588 faceG4383 of theG3588 earth,G1093 and hath determinedG3724 the timesG2540 before appointed,G4384 andG2532 theG3588 boundsG3734 of theirG848 habitation;G2733
YLT Act 17:26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
LITV Act 17:26 And He made every nation of men of one blood, to live on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
I certainly don't think there are two "types" of men in the "racial" sense. Before there was even the existence of a distinction between Jews and the rest of humanity, the "sons of God" married the "daughters of man". And even after there were Jews, the lineage that produced the Messiah contained Gentiles, didn't it? Where is this alleged "pure and separate race" in all that?
As far as I'm concerned, nowhere. Act 17:25, 26 "...seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Besides, that verse doesn't say what your provided translations say. That he has "Made" of one blood all nations of men is not the same as saying "...From one man he made all the nations..." The latter is a theological assumption. I have no comment on whether or not it is "accurate". I just want to point out that it is not here in that translation scriptural.
-
Dave -
Thank you for providing this valuable information about the blood:
Cheekie, none of the translations you posted contain the word "blood" that is in the original Greek. Here, the KJV is closer. Along with two "literal" versions.
Act 17:26 AndG5037 hath madeG4160 ofG1537 oneG1520 bloodG129 allG3956 nationsG1484 of menG444 for to dwellG2730 onG1909 allG3956 theG3588 faceG4383 of theG3588 earth,G1093 and hath determinedG3724 the timesG2540 before appointed,G4384 andG2532 theG3588 boundsG3734 of theirG848 habitation;G2733
YLT Act 17:26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth--having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings--
LITV Act 17:26 And He made every nation of men of one blood, to live on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling,
I certainly don't think there are two "types" of men in the "racial" sense. Before there was even the existence of a distinction between Jews and the rest of humanity, the "sons of God" married the "daughters of man". And even after there were Jews, the lineage that produced the Messiah contained Gentiles, didn't it? Where is this alleged "pure and separate race" in all that?
As far as I'm concerned, nowhere. Act 17:25, 26 "...seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Besides, that verse doesn't say what your provided translations say. That he has "Made" of one blood all nations of men is not the same as saying "...From one man he made all the nations..." The latter is a theological assumption. I have no comment on whether or not it is "accurate". I just want to point out that it is not here in that translation scriptural.
Does it matter significantly whether the original word is blood or man? Do both, blood and man, not refer to mankind?
Warmest Regards.
George
-
I'd have to be a theologian to know if the failure to include a translation of a word in the original was a significant matter.
Not even the CLV (with the "L" standing for "literal") translates αἷμα aima blood.
CLV Act 17:26 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth...
At least they didn't insert "man" even if they left out "blood". Kinda makes me wonder why not? To make it simpler to understand? To my mind, it doesn't if the meaning is "the same". I even looked in the list of "spurious" passages to see if that one was there. It isn't, unless I messed up and overlooked it.
Maybe there's a good reason. I just don't know what it is.
-
Dave -
Thank you for checking this out further; I appreciate it:
I'd have to be a theologian to know if the failure to include a translation of a word in the original was a significant matter.
Not even the CLV (with the "L" standing for "literal") translates αἷμα aima blood.
CLV Act 17:26 Besides, He makes out of one every nation of mankind, to be dwelling on all the surface of the earth...
At least they didn't insert "man" even if they left out "blood". Kinda makes me wonder why not? To make it simpler to understand? To my mind, it doesn't if the meaning is "the same". I even looked in the list of "spurious" passages to see if that one was there. It isn't, unless I messed up and overlooked it.
Maybe there's a good reason. I just don't know what it is.
Warmest Regards.
George
-
1 Corth 15:45. And so it is written. the FIRST man Adam was made a living soul.
works for me 😀
-
The context is not about who was the first man. It's about "First comes the physical and then comes the spiritual."
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Read the rest of the verse and what comes after it.
From Ray's Twelve Truths article: https://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm (https://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm)
TRUTH NUMBER 1
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the Last Adam [Jesus Christ] was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is NATURAL; and afterward that which is SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 15:45-46).
"It is sown [first] a NATURAL BODY [a physical body which dies] ; it is raised [afterward] a SPIRITUAL BODY [which is made immortal and never dies] ..." (I Cor. 15:44).
"Who shall change our [first] VILE BODY, that it may be fashioned like unto His [afterward] GLORIOUS BODY..." (Phil. 3:21).
"If I have told you EARTHLY things [first] , and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of HEAVENLY [spiritual] things [afterward] ?" (John 3:12).
The sequence of God's plan of salvation for mankind is most important-First is the physical and then comes the spiritual.
We know Jesus is a "man" and someday we will be like Jesus the "man."
In that sense Adam is the "first man."
There is "The first man Adam" and "the Last Adam [Jesus Christ]." Jesus and Adam are not one and the same but Jesus is described as "Adam."
The word "Adam" describes both Adam and Jesus in that verse. It does not say Adam was the first human on earth. It describes Adam as the first man who will become like Jesus. And let's not forget Eve is described as "the mother of all living." They go together.
-
Thanks Dennis
Physical,,,,,,,,Spiritual
Adam,,,,,,,,,,,Jesus
OT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,NT
Old man,,,,,,,New Creature, etc
I'm getting there little by little, it's so hard.
God Bless. Pamela
-
It is hard Pamela. And it's hard by design.
The bible is full of symbols and metaphors. As Ray says: "The bible is one big parable."
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
BTW, Young's gets this right by capitalizing the word "He" because "he" is the LORD Jehovah.
Dennis
-
I agree with you Dennis, that God indeed does have a plan, and that everything in that plan will be done to the letter.
The way I see, it all through the scriptures He highlights some people that have been bad examples in FAITH and best of all God shines a light on those that have been people of much FAITH.
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR being at the top of the list.
Galatians 3:7-Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham.
Was Abraham the first person (man) to have FAITH? NO, because the scriptures tell us that Abel, Enoch, and Noah also were men of faith. (Hebrews 11)
God in his great wisdom chose to make the promise to Abram, and Abraham believed God and that started the great chain of events that lead up to THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD being made flesh and dwelling with man.
Romans 10:17-So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Joel
-
Yes Joel, and may I add ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
-
Amen Dennis!
Thanks be to God for grace, mercy, truth, and LOVE.
Joel
-
Yes Joel, and may I add ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So we have been taught and do believe, that our faith comes only as a gift from God who calls us individually and gives us to Christ to teach and protect. Yet some teach that anyone may seek after God and find God by their own efforts. So how do we explain Titus 2:11 which reads: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men"
Indiana bob
-
Bob -
Regarding Titus 2:11:
Yes Joel, and may I add ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So we have been taught and do believe, that our faith comes only as a gift from God who calls us individually and gives us to Christ to teach and protect. Yet some teach that anyone may seek after God and find God by their own efforts. So how do we explain Titus 2:11 which reads: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men"
Indiana bob
Here are other translations:
KJ21 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
ASV For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
AMP For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
AMPC For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.
BRG For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
CSB For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
CEB The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
CJB For God’s grace, which brings deliverance, has appeared to all people.
CEV God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people.
DARBY For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,
DLNT For the grace of God appeared bringing-salvation for all people,
DRA For the grace of God our Saviour hath appeared to all men;
ERV That is the way we should live, because God’s grace has come. That grace can save everyone.
ESV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
ESVUK For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
EXB ·That is the way we should live, because [L For] God’s grace that can save everyone has ·come [appeared; been revealed].
GNV For that grace of God, that bringeth salvation unto all men, hath appeared,
GW After all, God’s saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.
GNT For God has revealed his grace for the salvation of all people.
HCSB For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
ICB That is the way we should live, because God’s grace has come. That grace can save every person.
ISV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
PHILLIPS For the grace of God, which can save every man, has now become known, and it teaches us to have no more to do with godlessness or the desires of this world but to live, here and now, responsible, honourable and God-fearing lives. And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. For he gave himself for us all, that he might rescue us from all our evil ways and make for himself a people of his own, clean and pure, with our hearts set upon living a life that is good.
JUB ¶ For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
KJV For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
AKJV For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
LEB For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
TLB For the free gift of eternal salvation is now being offered to everyone;
MSG God’s readiness to give and forgive is now public. Salvation’s available for everyone! We’re being shown how to turn our backs on a godless, indulgent life, and how to take on a God-filled, God-honoring life. This new life is starting right now, and is whetting our appetites for the glorious day when our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, appears. He offered himself as a sacrifice to free us from a dark, rebellious life into this good, pure life, making us a people he can be proud of, energetic in goodness.
MEV For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
MOUNCE For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
NOG After all, God’s saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.
NABRE For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
NASB For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
NCV That is the way we should live, because God’s grace that can save everyone has come.
NET For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
NIRV God’s grace has now appeared. By his grace, God offers to save all people.
NIV For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
NIVUK For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
NKJV For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
NLV God’s free gift of being saved is being given to everyone.
NLT For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.
NRSV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
NRSVA For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
NRSVACE For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
NRSVCE For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all,
NTE God’s saving grace, you see, appeared for all people.
OJB For the Chen v’Chesed of Hashem has appeared, bringing Yeshu’at Eloheynu to kol Bnei Adam,
RSV For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
RSVCE For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
TLV For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
VOICE We have cause to celebrate because the grace of God has appeared, offering the gift of salvation to all people.
WEB For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
WE God's loving kindness has come. It is through that blessing that all men are saved.
WYC For the grace of God, our Saviour, hath appeared to all men,
YLT For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
Does it appear that all will be saved in this age of Grace; or each in the time of His own choosing?
Warmest Regards.
George
-
John 1:17 ...grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Grace is not just a 'thing' or a theological concept. He is the embodiment of grace. He IS grace, in his coming.
-
Yes George, well said and we who are called do understand.-
However what about those who have not yet heard or who died in ignorance e.g. as children?
How to illustrate in secular language to unbelievers? Not possible is it?
So when they read that passage of scripture they think it is all of them to seek God.
Indiana bob
The Word Brings Salvation
Ro 10:13 ...for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
-
Bob -
Regarding Romans 10:13-15:
Yes George, well said and we who are called do understand.-
However what about those who have not yet heard or who died in ignorance e.g. as children?
How to illustrate in secular language to unbelievers? Not possible is it?
So when they read that passage of scripture they think it is all of them to seek God.
Indiana bob
The Word Brings Salvation
Ro 10:13 ...for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Do we know for sure that this applies to all that have ever lived; including those pre Christ?
What about all the aborted children; did they get to hear The Gospel?
Does anyone of us know for sure who will be dragged to Him o Learn His Truths, and when?
We all know that He will save All.
Are there still not many who have not been reached by The Good News, in tropical and Amazonian lands?
What about the atheists, agnostics, evolutionists, Muslims, Hindus, communists, etc?
Will these not be in the second Resurrection?
Warmest Regards.
George
-
Yes Joel, and may I add ...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So we have been taught and do believe, that our faith comes only as a gift from God who calls us individually and gives us to Christ to teach and protect. Yet some teach that anyone may seek after God and find God by their own efforts. So how do we explain Titus 2:11 which reads: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men"
Indiana bob
Why wouldn't grace then teach everyone when Christ comes again as the elect are taught now?
-
Dave -
Regarding Grace:
John 1:17 ...grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Grace is not just a 'thing' or a theological concept. He is the embodiment of grace. He IS grace, in his coming.
Are you saying that Our Saviour is Grace; or have I misunderstood your statement?
Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Romans 16:20
And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Romans 16:24
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
1 Corinthians 1:3
grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:4
I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Ephesians 4:7
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
1 Timothy 1:2
unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Timothy 1:2
to Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Timothy 2:1
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Philemon 1:25
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Written from Rome to Philemon, by Onesimus a servant.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Hebrews 10:29
of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1 Peter 5:12
By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.
Revelation 22:21
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
Is Grace not similar to Faith, in that, it is The Grace of Our Saviour (in the same way that it is The Faith of Jesus Christ) - both free Heavenly gifts from above granted to His Elect by Our Heavenly Father through His Beloved Son (as opposed to our own works or efforts) ?
Warmest Regards.
George
-
Is Grace not similar to Faith, in that, it is The Grace of Our Saviour (in the same way that it is The Faith of Jesus Christ) - both free Heavenly gifts from above granted to His Elect by Our Heavenly Father through His Beloved Son (as opposed to our own works or efforts) ?
No George. Ray has a video that clearly explains Grace: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU (https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU)
-
Dennis -
Thank you for providing this link:
Is Grace not similar to Faith, in that, it is The Grace of Our Saviour (in the same way that it is The Faith of Jesus Christ) - both free Heavenly gifts from above granted to His Elect by Our Heavenly Father through His Beloved Son (as opposed to our own works or efforts) ?
No George. Ray has a video that clearly explains Grace: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU (https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU)
I have listened to the audio again.
Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.
1 Corinthians 15:10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV):
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
I note this comment on You Tube:
SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Warmest Regards.
George
-
Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.
You can say God favors us with grace. But you cannot say Grace itself favors anything. Grace is a verb and not something or someone that can bestow favor.
If I'm missing something please show me the chapter and verse.
SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Again, please show me chapter and verse where "GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR."
But I can find these words in the church: https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/ (https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/)
Proof something is a lie: "if the church teaches it, it is not true" L. Ray Smith.
-
Dennis -
Thank you for pointing these points out:
Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.
You can say God favors us with grace. But you cannot say Grace itself favors anything. Grace is a verb and not something or someone that can bestow favor.
If I'm missing something please show me the chapter and verse.
SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD. IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
Again, please show me chapter and verse where "GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR."
But I can find these words in the church: https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/ (https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/)
Proof something is a lie: "if the church teaches it, it is not true" L. Ray Smith.
I stand corrected on both counts.
Warmest Regards.
George
-
There was a time I thought of "grace" as akin to some kind of "spiritual mustard" or invisible holy water...someTHING that got "smeared" or "sprinkled" on people, after which they were "saved". Don't laugh too hard...at least I didn't think physical mustard or holy water did anything spiritually real. Now I understand "grace" is active.
For God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His Only Begotten Son...Grace.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world...Grace.
Grace...came by/through Jesus Christ.
Maybe "gracing" is a better translation, since Theologians have muddied the meaning. I don't know. Like all those pesky bible-words, it's a word first. Technically, it's a noun. But I think of it as a "gerund", from:
G5463
χαίρω
chairō
Thayer Definition:
1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
Part of Speech: verb
Does that moisten or "undry" the theology a little?
What a "gerund" is (I wasn't an English Major either, but I dig words): http://www.softschools.com/examples/grammar/gerunds_examples/95/
-
Hi Dave
You said now I understand grace is active.
Your right,,,, I read The LOF111 today.
Grace as a verb , Ray uses the word gracing also.
Spiritual mustard is good on spiritual hotdogs 😂😜😜🌭
Peace to you,,,, Pamela
-
Dave -
Thank you for providing this additional information:
There was a time I thought of "grace" as akin to some kind of "spiritual mustard" or invisible holy water...someTHING that got "smeared" or "sprinkled" on people, after which they were "saved". Don't laugh too hard...at least I didn't think physical mustard or holy water did anything spiritually real. Now I understand "grace" is active.
For God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His Only Begotten Son...Grace.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world...Grace.
Grace...came by/through Jesus Christ.
Maybe "gracing" is a better translation, since Theologians have muddied the meaning. I don't know. Like all those pesky bible-words, it's a word first. Technically, it's a noun. But I think of it as a "gerund", from:
G5463
χαίρω
chairō
Thayer Definition:
1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
Part of Speech: verb
Does that moisten or "undry" the theology a little?
What a "gerund" is (I wasn't an English Major either, but I dig words): http://www.softschools.com/examples/grammar/gerunds_examples/95/
Your Love for the root meaning of words is greatly appreciated.
Warmest Regards.
George
-
Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"
From the lake of fire series #11
"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."
"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith
-
Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"
From the lake of fire series #11
"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."
"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith
He has said that in more than one recording and in email replies. Maybe not always those exact words, but he has said it.
A quick Google search and I found these:
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0)
But perhaps you can point out some of the important truths the church teaches. Not what they say, but what they teach. Their doctrine.
-
Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"
From the lake of fire series #11
"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."
"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith
He has said that in more than one recording and in email replies. Maybe not always those exact words, but he has said it.
A quick Google search and I found these:
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0)
https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0 (https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0)
But perhaps you can point out some of the important truths the church teaches. Not what they say, but what they teach. Their doctrine.
I dont know if I can point out truths of God that are taught in church off the top of my head.. I mean if I give it some thought I'm optimistic that I could think of some, sure. But Ray is the one who made the statement that "there are numerous truths of God taught in church" not I. However I think he was probably right. He was also right that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone.
In the quote above from the lake of fire #11 Ray not only said that there are numerous truths of God taught in the church but that "there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the church."
Perhaps a new thread would serve this topic better.
-
Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.
Not ten truths. Not five. Not two. Name one truth.
Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?
It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light. Satan is a liar and the father of the lie. There is no truth in him. Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.
Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people". Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems. Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.
-
Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.
Not ten truths. Not five. Not two. Name one truth.
Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?
It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light. Satan is a liar and the father of the lie. There is no truth in him. Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.
Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people". Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems. Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.
Hey I hear ya John. But again, it was Ray who wrote it, not me. I happen to agree with him though and I will reply a little later when I have time to give it some more thought and we'all see what comes of it.
A few questions though; was Ray correct to say that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone? Was everything the serpent said to Eve a lie? Did the angel not say good things as well as bad things to each of the seven churches in the book of revelations?
-
Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.
Not ten truths. Not five. Not two. Name one truth.
Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?
It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light. Satan is a liar and the father of the lie. There is no truth in him. Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.
Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people". Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems. Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.
Hey I hear ya John. But again, it was Ray who wrote it, not me. I happen to agree with him though and I will reply a little later when I have time to give it some more thought and we'all see what comes of it.
A few questions though; was Ray correct to say that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone? Was everything the serpent said to Eve a lie? Did the angel not say good things as well as bad things to each of the seven churches in the book of revelations?
O.K. I will wait with bated breath to see one truth that the Christian Church teaches. I don't know why it takes so long. I just want to know one truth Christians teach. One truth. Give it your best shot. Please provide at least two Scriptures to support their one great truth.
In your 2nd paragraph, you ask me three questions, which I will answer in order:
1) I don't know. I do not speak for Ray. Regarding deception, it is God Who keeps the Truth from the Many, and God reveals Truth to His blessed Elect, the Few.
2) I do not believe the serpent or Eve are literal but symbolic. But from the Book of Genesis, please quote a statement from the serpent that was the Truth.
3) You ask, "Did the angel not say..." No, an angel did not speak to the Churches. It was Jesus Himself Who spoke to the Churches. Those who use Scriptures, must do so in Truth and care and humility.
-
Well ok John. We'll do it your way.. I won't speak for Ray either then. I'll let his own words speak for himself and you can wrestle with that instead of with me.
From The Lake of Fire Part XI
"However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church." - L Ray Smith... not me.
Ray by his own words which he included in His lake of fire series wanted to make himself perfectly clear... that numerous truths of God are taught in the Church.
Is that plain English enough for you? Not just one truth like you've ask for, but numerous truths.
To speculate as to what truths of God Ray was referring to would be to bear false witness for no one knows the thoughts of another man. Perhaps I'll start another thread sharing my own thoughts but I don't see the point at this time. Each person can discern for themselves whether or not they agree with what Ray wrote here. It's not for me to "teach" or "lead" anyone else's discernment.
I know what I discern regarding Rays statement and it means very little to me what another man believes. To his own master will he stand or fall.
-
Well ok John. We'll do it your way.. I won't speak for Ray either then. I'll let his own words speak for himself and you can wrestle with that instead of with me.
From The Lake of Fire Part XI
"However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church." - L Ray Smith... not me.
Ray by his own words which he included in His lake of fire series wanted to make himself perfectly clear... that numerous truths of God are taught in the Church.
Is that plain English enough for you? Not just one truth like you've ask for, but numerous truths.
To speculate as to what truths of God Ray was referring to would be to bear false witness for no one knows the thoughts of another man. Perhaps I'll start another thread sharing my own thoughts but I don't see the point at this time. Each person can discern for themselves whether or not they agree with what Ray wrote here. It's not for me to "teach" or "lead" anyone else's discernment.
I know what I discern regarding Rays statement and it means very little to me what another man believes. To his own master will he stand or fall.
It has been several days now. Surely one spokesman for Satan's great church can name one truth they teach and back it up with at least two Scriptures.
One itsy, bitsy truth. Just one. Surely there are some scriptural scholars who can explain one teaching of the Christian Church. Surely the angel of light can help out?
-
I wouldn't worry too much about what other people believe John. If you just focus on yourself you should have more than your hands full.
-
A new thread would be fine. This one has run it's course from the OP.