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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mari_et_pere on July 30, 2007, 11:33:09 AM
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What do you all think? Someone I know witnessed some healings Sunday morning. I've always been skeptical but I don't know.........from what they told me it was pretty awesome.
Matt
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I don't know Matt. God can heal in many ways and I believe that God is bigger than we can even imagine. It makes sense to me that if He created the wonders of all we know He can heal people today. I don't think the people who say if you send me a seed of "X amount of money" I will send you an anointed cloth that will bring healing. i think that thing is just a money maker.
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Hi Matt,
The scriptures warn of these type things.
2Thes 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
v. 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
v. 11 Therefore God sends(by the means of Satan) them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
v. 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
v. 23 But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
I think it is just a part of the deception that Satan works in the church, to be very convincing.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a lamp will never more shine at all in you. And the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride will never more be heard at all in you. For your merchants were the great ones of the earth; for by your sorceries all nations were deceived.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Matt, I would have to be there to form any opinion.
God can heal who and when he wishes. I believe Ray has said he has witnessed healings himself.
But it is all of God, and if it comes from Babylon, I am skeptical.
Craig
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Time will tell if they got healed or not. Time is how to tell if a prophet/prophecy comes to pass.
But personally, I do believe God heals today, not necessarily at an altar call, but He certainly can.
I have had a couple of times where doctors have scheduled surgery for me and after prayer I haven't had to have it.
On the way to church years ago, I mentioned in the car my hands were hurting and feeling like I was wearing gloves. At the service they called up anyone who felt like they were wearing gloves....up I went, got laid on of hands, and for years they didn't bother me. Well, now I do have arthritis startin to show up in my hands. And no, I don't plan on going to a church to be prayed over. ::) I can pray for myself or ask you guys.
I had a friend who was called forward (he had cancer), prayed over, "slain", yada yada....praised God shouted "Im healed" and then died a few months later.
My friends 5 yr old grandson was prayed over by...sorry....Benny Hinn, HIMSELF :o....and still died of cancer.
God's ways are a mystery, and still, when it is your time, than thats it!
I am reading Acts in the CLNV--it is so exciting! They did lots of miracles to show the unbelievers.
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Hi Matt,
I found this email that goes into this topic of healing.
http://bible-truths.com/email10.htm#miracles ----------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Cindy:
Many assume that the statements that Jesus made to his eleven apostles on the evening of His arrest, were a blanket statement to all believers to follow, for all time. This is not so.
Jesus did do many miracles through His apostles after His death and resurrection. He promised them the gift of the Holy Spirit (Comforter), which would give them faith and power to spread His gospel message.
This came true fifty days later on the Day of Pentecost. The apostles were given the gift of tongues so that they could even speak in foreign languages which none of them had ever studied. They were able to heal the sick. And they even RAISED THE DEAD. Peter and Paul both RAISED THE DEAD.
These special miracle gifts did not follow all generations of the church. Even later in the ministry of the apostles, God began to withdraw these gifts. No one was raised from the dead in their later ministry. Paul said that "tongues would cease" in I Cor. 13. Only "faith, hope [expectation] and charity [love]" were to "NOW remain...." Some of Paul best friends and servants in spreading the gospel were sick and not healed. Paul told his dear friend Timothy, to "take a little wine for thy stomach's sake, and thine OFT [MANY] INFIRMITIES. God did NOT heal them. Do we think that Paul did not even ask?
Many in the charismatic church try to make a carnival exhibition of such gifts, but I am afraid all they do is deceive.
However, with that said, does God no longer perform miracles or healings? Yes, He does. I have seen and experienced them. Does He always heal? Does He always alleviate our problems and trials? NO. Why should we pray for God to TAKE AWAY all the things that are absolutely NECESSARY FOR OUR FAITH AND PERFECTION?
Don't neglect to ask God for EVERYTHING you feel you should have. But don't be disappointed if God allows you to CONTINUE IN YOUR TRIALS. Sometimes He removes certain trials after a period of time. We do not know when and how or even if God will do this that or the other thing, so we keep praying. I ask for STRENGTH AND FAITH to face my trials and OVERCOME my flesh. I no longer pray for God to make me HEALTHY, WEALTHY AND WISE, with absolutely no price to pay for such privileges.
This site is an answer to prayer. My understanding of the Scriptures is an answer to prayer. Everything I have is an answer to prayer. I pray for others and many times, GOD ANSWERS MY PRAYERS! But I do NOT always heal the sick through my prayers, I do not make people wealthy through my prayers, and I have NEVER raised the dead through my prayers. So don't stop praying!! And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, thank God for all that you have.
And then, don't WORRY about anything. Phil. 4:6 is a terrible translation in the KJV. Instead of "Be careful in nothing..." it should read:
"DON'T WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING..."
God be with you,
Ray
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I believe in healing. I know that my brother in law had one of his coworkers stopped breathing and was out cold. He prayed over him but nothing happened...but he decided to not give up and I guess "faught the fight of faith", took the man's hand and said "In the name of Jesus, I speak life into you" and he started breathing. I believe that sometimes God heals you, and sometimes he doesn't.
A really interesting look into healing is Henry Wright's book "A More Excellent Way - spiritual roots of disease". He's not a Kenneth Hagin (word of faith) and he's not a Benny Hinn (fall out) and he's not a "name it and claim it" either. Go to Amazon.com and look for A More Excellent Way and there should be a bunch of reviews and testimonies on there from customers.
Only problem is all he reads is King James when he quotes scriptures.
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Several years ago my Bible study leader and his wife went to Henry Wright's Pleasant Valley Church. They passed out buckets, and had most everyone vomiting up evils spirits before the service was over. The cause of these evil spirits was, of course, either generational curses (your great-great-great grandfather did something bad that you need to repent of) and having objects in your house that evil spirits are attracted to (your Star War's video and your kids comic books are devil magnets).
Nowdays, the thought that my wife and I wasted our time reading this nut's book and throwing away our kid's Pokeman cards is what makes me want to vomit.
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Steve, been there done that too!!!
Ya know you wish you knew better then, but God didn't want us to know then.
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Hi Kat, regarding:
"v. 11 of 2Thes 2 Therefore God sends (by the means of Satan) them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,"
I believe your parenthetical remark "by the means of Satan" is in error on your part. And here's why:
Quoting Ray's recent Nashville transcript, "Where Did Jesus Come From" P. 2
... Because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived (them).
Quite simply, God has His own direct hand by means of BLINDING/DELUDING His own works in this regard. Apparently, Satan has enough to do. ;)
Thanks for the AWARENESS on this, however,
Janice :)
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kat please exp;ainto me exactly what you are saying because what i read is two different things. God does heal today yesterday and he will tomorrow also when anyone is sick call the elders together to pray for you. That hasn't left this earth Jesus still heals people. Satan tries to copy Jesus to fool people in many ways Jesus still heals people. please explain to me what you mean. Peggy
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Hi Janice,
I think you might be right about that, thanks for pointing it out :)
ex2u, God certainly does still heal people. I believe we should all pray for God intervention for those in need.
But I feel that many times in the churches, that put on a great show and claim to heal so many people, this is not of God. These displays do not prove a person was healed, at that moment a person may be so excited as to think they are. How many of those are truely miraculously healed?
What are signs and wonders that lead people astray as spoken of in Mark? Is it these claims of the churches in healing? What other claims of miraculous acts do they have?
Mark 13:22 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Oblivion582, sorry if my previous post came off a bit harsh. The bucket story is true though.
The movie Leap of Faith starring Steve Martin is pure fiction but shows more truth than you might imagine. Self-proclaimed faith healers do not heal, but God does -- if it is his will and plan. The same is true for elder's prayers, the healing will come to pass only if it is Gods will. Gods spirit is the anointing oil, and comes only as He sees fit to send His spirit to heal.
God lead my wife, my sick son, and I through many experiences with "healers", not to train us but to teach us. Sometimes the hard way.
SteveW
P.S. God did heal my son! :) But in His time, at His pace, not ours or anyone elses.
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Thanks for your answers guys! Basically your collective answer is what I think of it. Healings definitely happen, but it's not as common as TBN or people in the faith movement would have you believe.
Matt
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Hi All... and Kat I was so bloomin' tired I forgot to post the verse... which is the actual reason why (and not just because Ray says so.)
2Thes 2: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Don't know if there is a second witness, will think about it. :)
Have a great day, Janice
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Matt, that is what I think too.
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Who is the actual healer?
An accurate question Zvezda. :)
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him THE FALSE PROPHET THAT WROUGHT MIRACLES BEFORE HIM, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
"And no marvel [Gk: to wonder with ASTONISHMENT]; for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: meta schematizo, transfigure -- to change the outward form or appearance, to make GLORIOUS] into an ANGEL OF LIGHT" (II Cor. 11:14). Ref : http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
All power is from heaven.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Oblivion582, sorry if my previous post came off a bit harsh. The bucket story is true though.
The movie Leap of Faith starring Steve Martin is pure fiction but shows more truth than you might imagine. Self-proclaimed faith healers do not heal, but God does -- if it is his will and plan. The same is true for elder's prayers, the healing will come to pass only if it is Gods will. Gods spirit is the anointing oil, and comes only as He sees fit to send His spirit to heal.
God lead my wife, my sick son, and I through many experiences with "healers", not to train us but to teach us. Sometimes the hard way.
SteveW
P.S. God did heal my son! But in His time, at His pace, not ours or anyone elses.
Hey its all good. If thats what happen, than I don't take it as too harsh. But yeah people don't "heal", God does. Even Kenneth E. Haggin knew that - one time he said he was running late for a healing service and there were ambulances everywhere and alot of pressure on him and while he was shaving he said "God, I didn't know there would be so many people out here" and he said he heard God say "You think you're gonna heal them?" and thats when he realized he was not the healer, but God is. Or something like that. I may not agree with some of Haggin, but I have learned from him. I believe that most people, or religions have SOME sort of truth within them. We were made in the image of God afterall.
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Oblivion,
Were we made (past tense) in the image of God... or are we being made (present tense) into the image of God?
Here is how the text read in the original hebrews:
Genesis 1:27a
"and·he-is-creating Elohim » the·human in·image-of·him in·image-of Elohim he-created»·him"
If we (humanity as a whole) are presently made in the image of God... well then of all men I am most miserable.
Just some food for thought. God's Peace.
Josh
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Ok, so God does still heal people, I just wonder if it does happen in church. If so, then who is the actual healer in those real cases that happened in church, since we know that the church is Satan’s dwelling place?
While I agree that many churches are no place to find any type of learning, why all the harsh judgement calls? I'm no one to judge. I wonder why so many others here seem to be?
I'm pretty certain Satan didn't heal them Sunday. That's silly. You know something? I think it's sad that so many hear the word "church" and automatically think "Satan", "deceived", "lie", "thief", and a plethora of other words that might not fit every single church in the known universe. What would you do if you found the best church you've ever dreamed of? Would church be a good word again?
I'm not defending EVERY church for obviously some are truely Satanic, but are all evil? Before you say yes, are you basing your answer on personally checking out every single one of them, or jumping on the bandwagon of "church is Satan's playground?" Me thinks the latter, which is silly folly.
Matt
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Amen Matt.
Tim
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I agree with you Matt. It is almost sounding like the forum is a club and puts church down . Church is put down here because people don't agree with everything in it. Not every church is the same. If we don't agree that all churches are evil will we be removed? I don't know. I don't really understand the post that made reference to "because Ray said so".
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Ray said :Many assume that the statements that Jesus made to his eleven apostles on the evening of His arrest, were a blanket statement to all believers to follow, for all time. This is not so.
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This is confusing because Ray had said that the Scriptures say : He Is , Was and Will be. " So then what determines what scriptures apply to today ?
For example Jesus talked to the disciples in the Olivet discourse of things to come. Holding to orthodox preterism - He was talking to them about what was going to happen in their generation. " This generation shall not pass away till all these things be fulfilled." And they were. In 70 A.D. Titus did surround Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed and millions died in the massacre. That was the Great Tribulation. He was not talking about something occurring in the future as the futurists think.
But I think Ray said that the preterists are 1/3wrong and the futurists 1/3 wrong as well. For His Word 'IS, Was, and Will Be." Appreciate some light in this. Thanks
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Yes we all agree that GOd is able to heal and raise the dead etc. But He doesn't raise the dead today but He heals. Why does He not do what HE did with the apostles today ? Back then Jesus healed all that came to Him. HE raised the dead and performed great works. But so those days are gone ? Many walk the fence on this one. All that came to Jesus was healed. All that come today to Jesus aren't healed. So in the church and even here we are caught in the middle not knowing if the gifts are for today. Are tongues passe ? Are the gift of prophecies gone ? These things will pass when the perfect comes but define "perfect." Is perfect the Scriptures ?
I can say that from what I have seen in Babylon is not tongues from God.And then I will be on the safe side and say - if God wants to give the gift of tongues He can do anything. BUt either they are not for today or they are. What I have heard when prophecies are spoken are not from God I don't think. I say that because when some one claims that God speaks through them in a public demonstration - it is so general and not specific. And why doesn't God speak in parables today?
But the healing I really don't know. Unbelievers are healed sometimes and don't pray. Miracles happen to he unbeliever as well as the believer. God does what He wants. He has determined beforehand so does prayer make a difference ? I pray always but sometimes I wonder if God heals or doesn't heal whether we pray or not.
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Hi mrsnacks,
Here is an email concerning the scripture in question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4095.0.html ------
Dear Robert:
You dogmatically state that Jesus certainly meant: "THIS generation," and not "THAT generation,"
proving that all the things He mentioned or prophesied HAD to happen in His day and generation
or "Was Jesus WRONG?"
Jesus gave prophesies in this chapter that absolutely did not occur in the first century AD regardless of all the unscriptural nonsense the Preterists teach. Did, for example, verse 31of this 24th chapter of Matthew occur in the first century AD: "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?"
No, no it didn't occur even as yet (2000 years later). But when it does occur, then "THIS" generation (the ONE which "shall see ALL THESE THINGS") will not pass until all things in this prophecy are completed.
Next consider your "this or that" argument. The word "This" in verse 34 is translated from the following Greek:
G3778
οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται
houtos houtoi hautē hautai
hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee
And here is what Dr. Strong says it means: "...this or THAT..." ! As in "this or THAT generation."
God be with you,
Ray
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Well it is a personal decision if someone wants to attended a church building. I do not dislike people that attend church, many of my own family do. But it is, what it is. Here are acouple of emails.
http://bible-truths.com/putout.html --------------
I can certainly identity with your situation. I have personally, as have ALL who eventually come to the Truth, gone through numerous "harlots of the Great Whore" before God opened my mind up to His spiritual Truths. There is a line in a hymn that goes: "Where could I go but TO THE LORD?"
When you find GOD, your search for the right "church" will be over!!!
I do not belong to, nor do I attend, ANY institutionalized church of men. I am, however, a member of The Body of Christ--The Church of THE LIVING GOD. And those of us that I am aware of, have to travel many hundreds of miles to occasionally fellowship together (as I did this past weekend, traveling a total of fourteen hundreds miles to gather with others of like mind for the weekend).
Sometimes our fellowship is only with Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father, but that's okay.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html ----------
Neither would I have success at such an impossible task. People ask me about "where to go to church" almost on a daily basis. They know that their church and all other churches that they know of, do not teach the truth (worse: they teach lies and heresy). And so they think that maybe I know of a church a few blocks from where their from or a few miles from their home that does teach all of the truths of God. Sorry, there is not such thing that I am aware of.
If there were churches scattered through BABYLON THE GREAT WHORE, then there would be no need for God to admonish those whom He is choosing, to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4). Are we to just come out of her spiritually, but remain good social friends with them on a weekly basis?
Church is not now and never was, a physical building to congregate in to worship God. Could all the hundreds of thousands of Israelites congregate inside the tiny little tabernacle in the wilderness? Could ALL JUDEA congregate in the tiny Temple in Jeruslem every sabbath? The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go? If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.
Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted. I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just have to keep looking.
Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus. I trully never miss, "CHURCH"! I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Everyone,
I will address some of the issues presented here as time allows, I may have to get back to it later though.
As far as healings and does it apply to all believers right now? No. Why you may ask, because the apostle's work in regard to spreading the Word of God, miracles, and traveling to the far corners of the earth are shadows of the elect and the work they will be doing with Christ in the next age, please keep in mind that the scriptures themselves are primarily for the elect.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(Verily twice, it means PAY ATTENTION!)
The greater work is yet to come, the fall harvest is a much bigger harvest than the firstfruits which were the apostles and the elect in the present (all generations) age.
Why does Jesus state that He will be telling some folks who have claimed to do great works in His name that He never knew them? I am not saying that all miracles and healings are not of God but there are some counterfeits to be sure.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Notice the word "many?")
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Have to run but I will continue later.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
PS Hi Kat I see we posted within minutes of each other once again! ;)
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Thanks Kat: I didn't know the "This" in the greek can mean this or that . But we all agree that 70 A.D. occurred and that some of what is spoken in Matt 24 has not happened yet. The thing I have with the futurist is that all that was spoken is future.
I am just wrestling with some things now.The church I have been attending I am not anymore. God has called me out. I was there as you know to be an instrument of God. Participating and expressing truths in spoonfuls. A few have been called out because God has used me. Now the door is closed. IT got back to the pastors that I was talking to a few members who were open about tithing not being biblical. There was Judas who went to the pastors. That enraged the pastor and his wife. MY wife has stopped tithing and a few others and God has continued to bless even though they have stopped tithing. And of course the leaders of the building weren't too pleased in losing a few contributers and money out of their pocket. So of course the Judas also went back saying I didn't agree with the doctrines of orthodox Christianity. So do you think I am welcome ? Of course not. They would've have me teach a class now if I paid them. And to attend would be a visit to a hornets nest.
Anyway, I have received the truth and of course what is false in me must leave. God has opened my eyes in revealing to me the
" many" mentioned are ones that have performed mighty works in His name. The many there ( majority) God said " depart from Me." HE doesn't know them ! So just because a believer is doing mighty works ( healing , prophecies, and miracles) doesn't mean God has a relationship with them. They look like sheep from the outside. But inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
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Hi Everyone,
I will address some of the issues presented here as time allows, I may have to get back to it later though.
As far as healings and does it apply to all believers right now? No. Why you may ask, because the apostle's work in regard to spreading the Word of God, miracles, and traveling to the far corners of the earth are shadows of the elect and the work they will be doing with Christ in the next age, please keep in mind that the scriptures themselves are primarily for the elect.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(Verily twice, it means PAY ATTENTION!)
The greater work is yet to come, the fall harvest is a much bigger harvest than the firstfruits which were the apostles and the elect in the present (all generations) age.
Why does Jesus state that He will be telling some folks who have claimed to do great works in His name that He never knew them? I am not saying that all miracles and healings are not of God but there are some counterfeits to be sure.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Notice the word "many?")
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Have to run but I will continue later.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
PS Hi Kat I see we posted within minutes of each other once again! ;)
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Thanks . Helpful post. I know these things you have mentioned but it does help to have the truth confirmed within me. I need to hear things twice or even more than that.
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God bless you Snacks and your family.
With love, Janice
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/KittyFreefall.gif)
Free fallin'.... ;) ;)
And......
An amen from me, Matt, as His spirits leads... :) ;)