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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: chuckt on August 20, 2007, 12:01:57 PM
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i found this very interesting:
Ge 2:25
And they were both [u]naked,[/u] the man and his wife, and were not ashamed
root word;
aram TWOT - 1698
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-ram' Verb
Definition
to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
(Qal) to be crafty, be subtle (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
from the same word as naked:
aruwm TWOT - 1698c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-room' Adjective
Definition
subtle, shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible
crafty shrewd, sensible, prudent
God bless
in Yeshua
chuckt
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Boy, is that interesting all right!!
I re read both passages w/ the word "crafty" instead of naked and subtil.
Chuck, do you have any ideas of what it could mean differently than what we all think??
Why translate naked there??? :-[ er..you know what I mean!
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Hi Chuck, I was contemplating this off and on all day... and only came up with a few musings, something to the effect of, well, this doesn't surprise me. :D And thank you for your insight. Question. What do we have to deal with on this earth: Thing one, evil and thing two, our carnality (flesh/...'nakedness'?)
Our flesh/nakedness is inherently subtle/shrewd/crafty in that it causes us [for God's purposes] the three biggies: Desire of flesh and eyes and pride of life. If we all, may God favor us, stop and look at the physical world around us, let us truly stop for a moment and see the whole physical worldly world around us, dear Lord... what do we find? ... nothing much good or lasting and many limitations to put it mildly, ha!
So now then you got the whole enchilada of ... we are enveloped in this temporal charade... this subtly shrewd and craftiness of the flesh/nakedness VEILING/COVERING/and GETTING IN THE WAY of what is TRULY REAL and lasting [again, for His purposes]... of this very real impermanent unreality [I know, an oxymoron]... my point again, we are enveloped in our global system due to our flesh/nakedness.
I dunno if I'm stretching it; it may be more like I'm warping it... don't mean to... :D ho! my only thoughts for you for the day.
Peace bro,
Janice
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/HugMe.jpg)
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hi all and good day.
well scripture interprets scripture:
man was created vain and subjected to vanity not willingly, so this lines up perfectly with my word study on naked!!
Ps 89:47
Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain
Shav' TWOT - 2338a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
shawv Noun Masculine
Definition
emptiness, vanity, falsehood
emptiness, nothingness, vanity emptiness of speech, lying worthlessness (of conduct
Ro 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Mataiotes 4:523,571
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
mat-ah-yot'-ace Noun Feminine
Definition
what is devoid of truth and appropriateness perverseness, depravity frailty, want of vigour
so there are two more witnesses one from hebrew scriptures and one from greek scriptures.
and so we come to CHRIST :D ;D the one who frees us and clothes us, what a wonder plan of salvation that most donr recognize yet, may there eyes be opened may the light shine thru and may they understand the ministry of reconciliation, tis CHRIST.
God bless all
thanks for the responses to my post.
inlove
chuckt
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Hi Chuck, I was contemplating this off and on all day... and only came up with a few musings, something to the effect of, well, this doesn't surprise me. :D And thank you for your insight. Question. What do we have to deal with on this earth: Thing one, evil and thing two, our carnality (flesh/...'nakedness'?)
Our flesh/nakedness is inherently subtle/shrewd/crafty in that it causes us [for God's purposes] the three biggies: Desire of flesh and eyes and pride of life. If we all, may God favor us, stop and look at the physical world around us, let us truly stop for a moment and see the whole physical worldly world around us, dear Lord... what do we find? ... nothing much good or lasting and many limitations to put it mildly, ha!
So now then you got the whole enchilada of ... we are enveloped in this temporal charade... this subtly shrewd and craftiness of the flesh/nakedness VEILING/COVERING/and GETTING IN THE WAY of what is TRULY REAL and lasting [again, for His purposes]... of this very real impermanent unreality [I know, an oxymoron]... my point again, we are enveloped in our global system due to our flesh/nakedness.
I dunno if I'm stretching it; it may be more like I'm warping it... don't mean to... :D ho! my only thoughts for you for the day.
Peace bro,
Janice
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/HugMe.jpg)
you got it!
2Cr 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
grace to ya
euty
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WOOHOO chuck!!!
This is a revelation isn't it? you can say......Adam and Eve where created wise..........created with and unashamed of their testimony and understanding of god.............they in their own craftyness walked with god and god walked with them............unashamed unafraid of being wrong, no one to judge them as evil...ACCEPTED by the Lord as they where.
BUT THEN...........WHAT IF.............And the serpent said are you really right? Here, taste......check yourself out and compare.....
Why have us "sin" why have us be out into bondange, and to become ashamed of the knowledge of god?...........In order that we might be trained in righteousness..........but i am getting ahead of myself...............(panting happy happy joy joy)
SO then what did God do? Gave them coverings.....gave them covenant, gave them a means to rightly divide .............brought about their salvation.
Here, the origen of "one way religions" ( you must where armenni suits)
Here, the origen of trusting in the forms of men and being ashamed of our nakedness, rather than to seek god in our nakedness.
Men think this passage..........this unscientific bad evolutional theory passage.... has to do with Adam and Eve froliking in the tulpis with thier dingle dangles hanging in the dirt............NOOOOOOO
It speaks of pureness in the mind and then awareness and self conscious killing the oneness with god. OUR sin..............
Men think when god gave them covering, he was teaching them sacrifice..........and in one way or two he was....but in another way he was giveing them a guide and saying this is the example, ware these clothing....(his covenant)
Forgive me i thik i am stumbling all over the place....i maybe should have waited before responding LMAO...i rushed in NAKED.....and flashed you all !!!!!!
Justine.
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Justine,
That was great!! Thanks for the morning smile. ;D
Lisa
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Justine, that was hysterical! ;D ;D And insightful as well!
Love the way you express yourself.
Peace,
Diana
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This has been an interesting study. :)
However, has anyone noted the following, The first use of the word 'naked' in Gen 2:25 is different than the 2nd time it is used, in Gen 3:7?
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked [06174], the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked [05903]; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
The first word [06174] `arowm is given the following meaning:
1) naked, bare
Used: naked 16
While the second [05903] `eyrom is given the following meanings:
1) naked
2) nakedness
Used: naked 9, nakedness 1
I am sure there must be a valid reason why there are two distinct words for one common meaning
It would seem likely that both Adam and Even seen more than their nakedness in Gen 3:7, than they were able to see prior to the event. They began to see their self worth :(
It is interesting that the first usage of the word 'Naked' is suprisingly similar to the word translated to subtil in the King James. (as noted previously by Chuckt)
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil [06175] than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
[06175] `aruwm (very close to 06174) Yet the meanings are different
1) subtle, shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible
a) crafty
b) shrewd, sensible, prudent
Used: prudent 8, crafty 2, subtil 1
However, according to Strongs, all three words share a common root to [06191] `aram
[06191] `aram is given the following meanings.
1) to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
a) (Qal) to be crafty, be subtle
b) (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
Used: subtilty 1, crafty 1, prudent 1, beware 1, very 1
All very confusing. :)
It would appear that the nakedness that Adam and Eve were created with is the closest in form to the rendering of crafty, subtil, sly. Yet when their eyes were opened they could only see their shame of being naked (the result of sinning).
I find this study fascinating, because the way I see it now, man has for the most part totally hid himself from God, with wants, needs and desires. Yet, even more so, traditions, rituals and practices to "have" God come closer, when in fact these shrouds of self righteousness do little more than amuse God. Somehow, I see Adam and Eve's need to cover themselves as a rejection to God.
Goodness knows that I am not suggesting that we all strip off our clothes to please God :)
But are we not to strip off all the carnal desires, hang-ups, traditions, fears, etc; so we can present ourselves spiritually bare and naked before him so that God himself can clothe us. Is this not why he asks us to trust him?
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had of said: We have sinned against our God and have done wrong; we will face our punishment, but we will not hide / cover ourselves from him.
It would appear that the word "naked" has always meant more than being without clothes. :)
Well this is how I see it.,
Love in Christ the Lamb,
Darren
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Very interesting indeed, but all I can think about is dingle dangles in the dirt..... ::)
It made me lose my focus, I was laughing so hard.
Keth30
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here is the scripture: love covers a multitude of transgression pro 10:12 as I have understood as we stand naked before the Lord He covers us with His righteousness.
This new thought of Jesus covering Adam and Eve after the fall ( loosely worded ) because what happen is not what I have understood with my natural mind. I saw there being a difference in the creation of Genius1 and Genius 2 Than you go into the story, in Genius 3, the parable because Jesus is still speaking to us today and the masses. I asked that question on this forum are we Satan it was clearly answered with scriptures no but we are in the flesh apart of His nature. Jesus clothed us because of His love for humanity and I believe He takes off our ways for the same reason, his love for us. peggy
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i found this very interesting:
Ge 2:25
And they were both [u]naked,[/u] the man and his wife, and were not ashamed
root word;
aram TWOT - 1698
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-ram' Verb
Definition
to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
(Qal) to be crafty, be subtle (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
from the same word as naked:
aruwm TWOT - 1698c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-room' Adjective
Definition
subtle, shrewd, crafty, sly, sensible
crafty shrewd, sensible, prudent
God bless
in Yeshua
chuckt
Hi cuckt,
Thanks for the share. I am curious, is "TWOT" have in e-sword? Cuz, I don't have in it. Just Strong's and Brown-Driver-Briggs' did not have same definition as in TWOT.
Brett
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I like threads!
I see something interesting...I don't know if you like it, but anyway, just look on bolds relate to verses:
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Rev 3:17-18 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.
I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
Gen. 2:25 is figurative of "naked" and "not ashamed". Like when people (even Christendom) are not ashamed their naked. What this this mean 'naked' as figurative? SIN. People who are not ashamed of their sins until God revealing them (removed spiritual blinds). Like Christendom, they say "I accepted Jesus and forgive my sin" are blindness and nothing they have ashamed of there nakedness for because they support of 'free will', 'eternal tortured in Hell', and all of false doctrine they made.
What you think? ;)
Brett
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Thank you Keth30 for repeating it SO I COULD LAUGH TO TEARS AT IT AGAIN!
Thank you Justine, originally, for a variety of reasons...
:P
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here is the scripture: love covers a multitude of transgression pro 10:12 as I have understood as we stand naked before the Lord He covers us with His righteousness.
This new thought of Jesus covering Adam and Eve after the fall ( loosely worded ) because what happen is not what I have understood with my natural mind. I saw there being a difference in the creation of Genius1 and Genius 2 Than you go into the story, in Genius 3, the parable because Jesus is still speaking to us today and the masses. I asked that question on this forum are we Satan it was clearly answered with scriptures no but we are in the flesh apart of His nature. Jesus clothed us because of His love for humanity and I believe He takes off our ways for the same reason, his love for us. peggy
WWWWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
thats it!! yes tis LOVE we can have all knowledge and know all things and have faith to move mountians without LOVE we are nothing!!!
no greater love has any man cept CHRIST so we walk in him and are clothed with him ((abiding)) in him produces this same love which covers!! which in fact is HIM. Christ in us!!
AMEN.
chuckt
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root word;
aram TWOT - 1698
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-ram' Verb
Definition
to be subtle, be shrewd, be crafty, beware, take crafty counsel, be prudent
(Qal) to be crafty, be subtle (Hiphil) to be crafty, be or become shrewd
Word Origin
~wr[ from (06191) (in its original sense)
your right brett, but thats why in my op i put ""root word"" when i do word studies i look at it all.
so while its not the "same" word the root is the same and we have witness from other scriptures of man being subjected to "vanity" and so it all fits.......well for lil old me any way :o
God bless brett in Christ
chuckt
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Very interesting indeed, but all I can think about is dingle dangles in the dirt..... ::)
It made me lose my focus, I was laughing so hard.
Keth30
i do appoligise .. it is not my intention to distract.
for me knowing the words for naked and subtle brought to realisation so many things i had been struggleing with in comming to terms with my personal relationship with Jesus.
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Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
I wonder what would have happened if Adam and Eve had of said: We have sinned against our God and have done wrong; we will face our punishment, but we will not hide / cover ourselves from him.
It would appear that the word "naked" has always meant more than being without clothes.
Well this is how I see it.,
Love in Christ the Lamb,
Darren
Dear Darren,
That's what I'm talkin bout! We need not shrink in shame from our God, for we are bought with a precious price, indeed.
His Love and Light, Lisa
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yall dont think i was talking about literal cloths do you???
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Ha Ha :D Justine, you are hilarious!
Justine said:
This is a revelation isn't it? you can say......Adam and Eve where created wise..........created with and unashamed of their testimony and understanding of god.............they in their own craftyness walked with god and god walked with them............unashamed unafraid of being wrong, no one to judge them as evil...ACCEPTED by the Lord as they where.
Isn't this the same with us? Before God gets a hold of us, we also walk in our own craftiness in Babylon. Unashamed and unknowing how naked we really are. Until God shows us by taking us out into the wilderness and through many trials He clothes us in His righteousness.
Love,
Ursula
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Ha Ha :D Justine, you are hilarious!
Justine said:
This is a revelation isn't it? you can say......Adam and Eve where created wise..........created with and unashamed of their testimony and understanding of god.............they in their own craftyness walked with god and god walked with them............unashamed unafraid of being wrong, no one to judge them as evil...ACCEPTED by the Lord as they where.
Isn't this the same with us? Before God gets a hold of us, we also walk in our own craftiness in Babylon. Unashamed and unknowing how naked we really are. Until God shows us by taking us out into the wilderness and through many trials He clothes us in His righteousness.
Love,
Ursula
Yes it is indeed like us. We are adam we are eve. i dont think Jesus comes along to put a new "illusion" into us, but to bring our minds as we are out of illusion, and to make us unashamed by bringing our minds into the fulllness of his truth.
but that is a deep thought, one i may not be qualified to express at this time and esp not till i get the verese to back me up.
i keep pondering over the depth of "god being all in all"...........Christ, ruleing us, his kingdom and then giving it to god ..........so that ( or because or prooving that) god is ALL in ALL.
i cant even express it with the glory due Him. saying it seems to take away from His working.......as if .... to be growing in the truth that only belongs to god and is granted to you for knowing, and is NOT bound by Any doctrine of man, by Any religion of man, not bound by ANY philosophy of man but is his truth all in all.....and only by HIS eyes can it be seen................(eyes flutter over)
bigger than big.... more life than life...........No box can hold MY GOD, and no walls can keep HIM out.......and so even in my "nakedness" his eyes can disearn for me the truth that is HIS.
i hope i made some sence........someday as i learn more scripture i can slap a verse to it.i pray god can supply you the verses untill he lets me in on them.
(seeing it all right there in scripture is whammo big revelation for me like i never saw it before yet once upon a time i did, and then i left the church because i could not see it anymore.... the Lord walked me thru many places showing me it...and now i am learning that it was and is still right there in his word....like new treasure)
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;) some of the vereses in mind.......1Cor 1:30, 2:5-10.....
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Very interesting indeed, but all I can think about is dingle dangles in the dirt..... ::)
It made me lose my focus, I was laughing so hard.
Keth30
i do appoligise .. it is not my intention to distract.
for me knowing the words for naked and subtle brought to realisation so many things i had been struggleing with in comming to terms with my personal relationship with Jesus.
Keth I had the same reaction LOLROF ;D ;D
Justine, you don't need to apologize. After we compose ourselves we simply re read the serious stuff!!!
Its all good!!!
Chuck, great thread. Lots to study and think about.
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I was just gonna say also, no need to apologize Justine! You are a 'refresher of the saints' so to speak:
1Cor 16: 17-18 I want you to know how delighted I am to have Sephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus [and Justine ;)] here with me. They partially make up for your absense! They've [she's] refreshed me :D by keeping me in touch with you. Be proud that you have people like this among you. [The Message]
:-*
Janice
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Yes it is indeed like us. We are adam we are eve. i dont think Jesus comes along to put a new "illusion" into us, but to bring our minds as we are out of illusion, and to make us unashamed by bringing our minds into the fulllness of his truth.
but that is a deep thought, one i may not be qualified to express at this time and esp not till i get the verese to back me up.
i keep pondering over the depth of "god being all in all"...........Christ, ruleing us, his kingdom and then giving it to god ..........so that ( or because or prooving that) god is ALL in ALL.
i cant even express it with the glory due Him. saying it seems to take away from His working.......as if .... to be growing in the truth that only belongs to god and is granted to you for knowing, and is NOT bound by Any doctrine of man, by Any religion of man, not bound by ANY philosophy of man but is his truth all in all.....and only by HIS eyes can it be seen................(eyes flutter over)
bigger than big.... more life than life...........No box can hold MY GOD, and no walls can keep HIM out.......and so even in my "nakedness" his eyes can disearn for me the truth that is HIS.
i hope i made some sence........someday as i learn more scripture i can slap a verse to it.i pray god can supply you the verses untill he lets me in on them.
(seeing it all right there in scripture is whammo big revelation for me like i never saw it before yet once upon a time i did, and then i left the church because i could not see it anymore.... the Lord walked me thru many places showing me it...and now i am learning that it was and is still right there in his word....like new treasure)
Alex, that was really beautiful!
Peace,
Diana
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Diana, you mean Justine... you must've been thinking bowt Alex.
Spiritual hug!
:)
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oops, of course, sorry Justine!! I think I had just read Alex's other thread...oh boy...the signs of aging...gotta take some more gingko biloba!
Anyways, that was really beautiful Justine!!
Peace,
Diana
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Diana, I would like to thank you for giving me an insight! :) The insight is applied to this post, but the comments you made that prompted it were made in a recent thread, The Serpent in LOF P.2.
In my initial post at the beginning of this thread, I stated: What do we have to deal with on this earth? Thing one, evil and thing two, our carnality.
Your comments:
Could it be that it was Eve's own Carnal MIND that spoke to her in thoughts, instigated and fueled by the spirit satan invisibly through the spiritual realm...
as well as...
It is out of our minds/heart via the mouth that evil manifests into the physical world...we think something and it becomes a reality in the physical world when we act on it or speak it...
These have brought me to see the ONENESS of carnality and evil, and they aren't necessarily two separate concepts after all.
MANY THANKS!! :)
Janice
UPDATE TO THIS POST DATED: 9/24/07
Due to an email response of Ray that I just read, I shall refine my above statement to say: The separate concepts of carnality and evil are ONE in that they both are states of separation from God. Ho ho! Here's the Ray's email and link that shed the light that made the distinction clearer for me:
Hi Ray..just wondering, is the serpent that deceived Eve, is that the beast in us..our flesh and self?
Thanks
Beverley
Dear Beverley: No, God reprimanded Adam, and Eve, AND THE SERPENT. It would
be silly to reprimand the serpent separately if the serpent WAS Adam and Eve.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5518.0.html
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yup eve lusted before she actually ate. and for all mankind its not a question of "if" but ""when"" :o
three thng she did, being made from dirt outside the garden. the ""world""
remember they where created outside and placed IN the garden:
Gen 3:6 And (((when))) the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
chuckt