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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lostANDfound on March 26, 2016, 10:36:45 PM
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Just got cornered for a few hours by a pastor at a big dinner. I'm feeling a little wrung out. One of his main arguments was that the church fathers believed such and such so that's why I should. Now I'm off to go to his parents house where we're staying for another week as we're out of province right now. (Sigh)
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Interesting, I had a couple baptist come to my house today preaching the standard "hell fire and damnation" bit. They said something that I've never heard in defense of the KJV being the only perfect translation, and that was the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are perverted.
Anyway I gave them a couple of the business cards Ray had made out and wished them the best. They seemed in a hurry to leave lol.
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You guys seem to be living right. ;D
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Ha! That's pretty encouraging Dave, thanks!
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I would love to get to preach like that to unbelievers. Kinda jealous, sorta
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Lost and Found, this made me laugh. :D Just tell em the pharisees were the leaders of their day and look at how that worked out! I love conversations like that.
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Good way to respond,porter:you giving them Ray's business cards.
I also have an acquaintance who is a christian and I printed "the rich man and Lazarus" in book format and gave it to him instead of trying to argue and debate.
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Good way to respond,porter:you giving them Ray's business cards.
I also have an acquaintance who is a christian and I printed "the rich man and Lazarus" in book format and gave it to him instead of trying to argue and debate.
Yep exactly totally agree. I dont know anyone who can better explain the truths we believe besides Ray. So might as well point them to the website.
Only thing I told them was I didnt agree and even provided a couple witnesses for THEIR verses in an vain effort to show them God will save all.
lostANDfound, 99.999999% of the time they don't wanna hear the truth as we know it. So I'm (stubbornly) coming to realize it's pretty pointless to try an convince them. So now I simply give a couple verses and point them to bible-truths.com. So much easier, less frustrating and avoids arguing and debating.
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I didn't want any part in that conversation and was well aware that we would both walk away believing as we did before but he wanted to play his favourite sport of evangelizing us heretics, and he had the perfect arena with many of his fans wandering into the room to the watch the great event. I thought it was right to be ready with an answer so I answered, when he let me get a word in. My husband was so good, he sat by me, hoping to lend me some strength and show solidarity while keeping out of the conversation since we speak for ourselves regarding our faith, and our journeys and beliefs aren't identical. I did find the irony quite thick, with this pastor hiding eggs around the house moments before he tried to evangelize me. :-\
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Interesting, I had a couple baptist come to my house today preaching the standard "hell fire and damnation" bit. They said something that I've never heard in defense of the KJV being the only perfect translation, and that was the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are perverted.
Anyway I gave them a couple of the business cards Ray had made out and wished them the best. They seemed in a hurry to leave lol.
You cannot argue with ignorance. This really applies here:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
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Just got cornered for a few hours by a pastor at a big dinner. I'm feeling a little wrung out. One of his main arguments was that the church fathers believed such and such so that's why I should. Now I'm off to go to his parents house where we're staying for another week as we're out of province right now. (Sigh)
There was a guy with us a short time ago (no longer here) who asked about early church fathers believing in universalism. I showed him three church fathers who did believe and teach it:
John: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
Peter: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9).
Paul: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe (1 Tim. 4:10).
Of course I did not hear back, because it was not what he wanted to hear. It's interesting that people will disregard the writings of John, Peter, and Paul, but as soon as Polycarp or Irenaeus or Cyril talk about eternal punishment, they'll say "Look! Can't you see it?! The early church fathers believed in hell!"
It reminds me of what Ray said numerous times: "There is no verse that says God will not save all. If there were, it would be the FIRST VERSE they would use to defend their hell doctrine." Since they don't have a verse like that, they'll sometimes go to the backup plan, which is "The Church Fathers...."
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I agree Extol, The Lord sent Paul to many places preaching the Gospel, And in all the letters he wrote to the various Churches, how many times does he mention hell in all of those writings?
Joel
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Hi lostANDfound,
Dennis your right
you cannot argue with ignorance. This really applies here:
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you
I tried arguing with them , it just doesn't work! I have two christians who work for me and to them I am the false prophet. Nope I can't open there eyes, it just not going to happen. I just do not go there with them, when they try and talk to me about what they believe I just straight out change the subject and now they seem to leave it alone. Every once and awhile they say you know you need to get back into a church and I just tell them no thanks.
Michael
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lostANDfound,
I have a much better appreciation today toward your original post. The baptists came back today, but this time with the pastor! Like you I couldn't help but try give an answer, as he was asking a lot of questions. Lets just say it ended on somewhat of a sour note when as the pastor was leaving he said I should "get a KJV bible and read it". So now I too feel a bit wrung out. Blah indeed!
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You've never read a KJV bible? ;D
I'm convinced beyond unconvincing that there have been PLENTY of believers who had nothing but the KJV.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Tell him when he is obedient to this scripture, you'll happily have coffee with him to talk about how Jesus does it.
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Hi Dave, Thats great, I will keep that in mind for my self. :)
You've never read a KJV bible? ;D
I'm convinced beyond unconvincing that there have been PLENTY of believers who had nothing but the KJV.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Tell him when he is obedient to this scripture, you'll happily have coffee with him to talk about how Jesus does it.
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2Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
v. 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
v. 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
v. 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
The ministers of the church interprets the Bible with the carnal mind, and they cannot come to the truth of it, their "form of godiness" is religion, certainly not truth. They teach and believe the only thing they can know/understand... and what is so telling is that when they are shown the truth, they deny it!
Titus 1:15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
v. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
I have very little patience with anybody trying to 'teach' me heresy... they want you to hear them out, but would have very little time for your knowledge, it's not like you can get through to them anyway. And if I just listen without disagreeing, is that not like letting them think you agree with them? Nobody from the church has to explain anything they believe to me, after all I was there most of my life... I know what they believe, but they just can't comprehend what I do. I am not intimidated by there ability to quote many verses either, so I go with "from such people turn away!"
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I'm going to keep all this in mind over the next week as I am at a huge family gathering for my grandmas 90th birthday and the pastor is actually my cousin and many other relatives here are missionaries. So I'm likely to get an opportunity to practice it. 😒
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Really good sound advice everyone, and especially Kat. I really needed to hear that. I too will remember it if there ever is a next time. I can be so stubborn sometimes.
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Sorry for the double post, but I just had to share this. I was reading the paper 'Does All mean All?' again today and all throughout my reading I had this thought stuck in my head that Scripture is for the Elect ONLY. Then I came across this quote at the end of the paper I never noticed before lol.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html
BOTTOM LINE: It is not necessary; we are not obligated; it is not incumbent upon us; we do no NEED to prove our faith to the satisfaction of those who DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD! If we know it in our hearts and minds we are not obligated to prove it to these people that despise the word of God, we’re not obligated. But I teach this, of course for our benefit.
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Before this thread started I had asked God to show me if it was important to share the good news we have learned here at bible truths to those without. Bit by bit and little by little over the past few years and more so over the last few weeks, either through Scripture, or through posts made by forum members and through Ray's papers, God was telling me no.
The truths we know and love as written in the Scriptures and as expounded by Ray are not for everyone. Scripture is not for everyone. The Scriptural references and witnesses that were posted on this thread show that. And it is because like Ray said, "they cant handle the truth".
Any teaching or preaching that needs to be done, is for the benefit and for the perfecting of the Saints.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Everything written in Scriptures is all for us. Everything Ray wrote according to what God showed him is for us. I know this is probably no big deal to some of you, but it is a revelation to me. Just want to say I think (I hope) I finally understand.
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Bingo.
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Pro 9:7 He who admonishes a mocker is procuring dishonor to himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets himself a blemish."
Pro 9:8 Do not reprove a mocker lest he should hate you; Reprove a wise man, and he shall love you."
Pro 23:9 Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, For he will despise the wisdom of your words.
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Amen, Amen and Amen :)
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Sorry for the double post, but I just had to share this. I was reading the paper 'Does All mean All?' again today and all throughout my reading I had this thought stuck in my head that Scripture is for the Elect ONLY. Then I came across this quote at the end of the paper I never noticed before lol.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.0.html
BOTTOM LINE: It is not necessary; we are not obligated; it is not incumbent upon us; we do no NEED to prove our faith to the satisfaction of those who DESPISE THE WORD OF GOD! If we know it in our hearts and minds we are not obligated to prove it to these people that despise the word of God, we’re not obligated. But I teach this, of course for our benefit.
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Before this thread started I had asked God to show me if it was important to share the good news we have learned here at bible truths to those without. Bit by bit and little by little over the past few years and more so over the last few weeks, either through Scripture, or through posts made by forum members and through Ray's papers, God was telling me no.
The truths we know and love as written in the Scriptures and as expounded by Ray are not for everyone. Scripture is not for everyone. The Scriptural references and witnesses that were posted on this thread show that. And it is because like Ray said, "they cant handle the truth".
Any teaching or preaching that needs to be done, is for the benefit and for the perfecting of the Saints.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Everything written in Scriptures is all for us. Everything Ray wrote according to what God showed him is for us. I know this is probably no big deal to some of you, but it is a revelation to me. Just want to say I think (I hope) I finally understand.
I just don't see it that way. Consider Romans 10
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
So, I would like the world to hear and believe and if that means I open my mouth and preach the scripture, then I will do that.
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I just don't see it that way. Consider Romans 10
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
So, I would like the world to hear and believe and if that means I open my mouth and preach the scripture, then I will do that.
If you read a little further down you will see because of the work of the Apostles that the world has heard, but did not believe or obey.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
There really is not too many places (if any) left on earth where people havent heard of Jesus, due to the writing and distribution of the Scriptures by the Prophets and Apostles. Yet they all knew who the Scriptures were written for.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Of all the hundreds of people I've shared the truth with, not one of them has accepted or agreed with the truths we here at BT know and believe. If anything they were offended. They really do not want to hear it, believe it or do it. I have learned this the hard way. Not even my own wife believes it at this time.
The Baptist who came to my house to try and "save" me were the last ones I will ever share these truths with, unless I'm asked. And they definitely were not asking. They even used the very same Scriptures you used in defense of "sharing" the gospel. It was actually more like they were trying to stuff it down my throat.
If you have been called to preach and teach then do it. If God is with you, you will succeed. Not many are teachers, and not many should even want to be teachers IMO because teachers will be judged more severely if they mis-lead some by making a mistake. Besides, there is an "more excellent way" then teaching.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
1Co 13:1 If I speak the languages of men and of angels, but do not have love, I am a sounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so that I can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And if I donate all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient; love is kind. Love does not envy; is not boastful; is not conceited;
1Co 13:5 does not act improperly; is not selfish; is not provoked; does not keep a record of wrongs;
1Co 13:6 finds no joy in unrighteousness, but rejoices in the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1Co 13:8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for languages, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end.
Honestly, I believe there will come a time when we all will have a chance to teach the world, but right now is the time when we need to be taught. We are doing that here at BT and where ever believers fellowship.
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Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Yes, this is how Romans 10 ends. I'm thinking stretching out our hands to this disobeying people is part of how we live our lives.
As far as the whole world knowing Jesus, I really do not think so. The name of Jesus is well known, but the mission of Jesus and the truth of Jesus is not. A great deal of the world is Muslim and they do not have knowledge of the true Jesus. I don't even have to go to the Muslim world or Russia or China to tell you that people don't know the simplest things anymore about the Jesus 'story'. When Tyler Perry decides that young people do not know about Jesus so he makes a TV musical about the passion- well, really, they don't know anything. They think it's a fairytale. They know very, very little.
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Agreed octoberose. Billions have died having never heard about Jesus. Even those that have heard about Him and preach about Him, still do not actually believe and obey Him. At least it seems we agree that the name of Jesus is well known.
Hopefully God will give you better success at sharing His Word than He did for me. It certainly is possible that He will do that for you. Look at what He has done with Ray's ministry. Albeit Ray worked really hard and studied probably thousands of hours getting it right. Yet even he made the occasional mistake, but he could admit that and correct it.
Thanks octoberose, I appreciate the discussion. :)
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The whole Christian world - the many - does no 'know' Christ, they are blind to this truth and that is the way it is meant to be in this age.
Mat 7:22 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
v. 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Christ carried this out in His ministry, He was not trying to open the masses eyes, but spoke so they could not understand. Only those very few disciples were pulled aside and taught the truth.
Mat 13:13 “Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand
v. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
v. 15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
v. 16 “But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
v. 17 “for assuredly, I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
This has been the same all the way since Jesus spoke those words till now, many are called but few, very few are chosen. He already has those designated who are the chosen few and He will certainly make sure to learn these truths and that could certainly be through us.
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
I just don't see that we need to do out reach to the world in sharing this truth, God can and will bring those chosen few that He desires to know these things to Him, with or without us.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I learned something in that conversation (interrogation) with my cousin the pastor. Pastors don't like being told that God doesn't need them to save anyone. :o