=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lauriellen on November 30, 2011, 12:18:19 PM

Title: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: lauriellen on November 30, 2011, 12:18:19 PM
i have been re-reading thru the lof series & in part 4 came across something that has been on my mind alot lately, specially this time of
year when there are so many pleas for donations, angel tree gifts,
food donations, charitable giving, ect...
Part 4 of lof is about the physical vs. spiritual meaning of scritpures.
Ray writes: "In other words, they take something physical (bread); magically metamorphose it into something else physical (namely flesh); and think they have comprehended and achieved something SPIRITUAL."
He talks about how the scriptures, even tho they may sound like they are talking about something physical, always have a higher spiritual meaning. so my question is, how should we live these verses?:
Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
It seems to me that the 'church' spends lots of time, energy and money doing these types of things (good works), yet Jesus says He 'doesn't know them"?
i confess that i feel guilty for not spending more of my time, energy & money doing these 'physical' good works....yet i see how many of my friends go around patting themselves & each other on the back for the charitable acts they do (leaven-puffed up?) ....its kinda a double edged sword?
So i guess my question is, does God expect us to spend the majority of our time doing 'physical' good deeds, or is there a 'spiritual' way of living these verses that is acceptable to Him?
He seems to 'call us out' of the church system, so i am leary of getting involved in anything that they do? any input?
(ps. as a footnote: I seem to have more compassion for the needy than ever before, but i also seem to be coming to see the sufferring of all people as part of Gods plan, so how do i reconcile the desire to help people with letting God work out His plan? confusing....)
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: Gina on November 30, 2011, 01:45:38 PM
I see nothing wrong with giving to those in need.  But I can't give what I haven't got because then I'll be the one in need.  ;D

Does God expect us to do physical deeds?  I suppose if that's what He's calling a person to do and equips them with what they need in order to give/do a physical deed, sure.  (Paul said, if you see a brother or sister in need and you have what they need, but you say, "Sure nice chattin with ya!  Welp, gotta run!  Have a great day!" then our faith, since it is not accompanied by good works, is as good as dead. (James 2:14-15).)

And that goes back to who is my "brother" and who is my "sister"?  Whoever does the will of your Father.  That's who.  Are those in the church, as you mentioned, giving to those in need doing the will of the Father?  I think so?

I remember Ray saying that even if you're a quadriplegic and on your back--obviously you're not in a position to do something physical to help someone, but you can still pray for others.

We have these boxes all over the cities where I live for people to give their unused items of clothes and shoes.  There's also Goodwill and Salvation Army donation stores, and that's another way to give.  I do that periodically when I can.
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: lauriellen on November 30, 2011, 02:15:43 PM
the passage i quoted above seems to be saying that we will be accounted worthy to enter the kingdom by how many good 'physical'
works we do, but the following verse seems to say that the 'physical' act of serving isn't as important:
Luk 10:38  Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house.
Luk 10:39  And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.
Luk 10:40  But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.
Luk 10:41  And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Luk 10:42  But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

i know we are to give cheerfully as we are able, but should the pursuit of physical good works be our PRIORITY?...should i be spending the MAJORITY of my time, thought & effort in physical good works or is there a deeper spiritual application to the passage in Matt 25?
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: lauriellen on November 30, 2011, 02:23:08 PM
i guess i have been taking a serious look at my 'fruit' and guess what? i don't think i have any  >:( i have this 'knowledge', but what do i do with it?....i see 'blind' Christians who give SO MUCH of themselves and i feel ashamed.  :-[ 
which brings me back to Ray's original statement.....can we 'do' something physical and get a 'spiritual' result?
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: Gina on November 30, 2011, 03:26:01 PM
Well, I remember one thing that I learned while lurking.  Someone pointed out that the fruit is the fruit of the spirit.  It's not our fruit.  I no longer  compare myself to other Christians based on what they do outwardly (for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly), but I know how you feel.  It can be confusing.  It could be that God is working on your heart to be more giving, but as I said before, I would venture to guess that you're more giving than you believe, but compared to what the system-ized church does, it would appear that you're not doing very much.  You clearly have a sincere desire to help others in need and not because it's a clear indication to those who see you helping that you have good fruit.  So maybe help them help others as God gives you the ability to?
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 30, 2011, 04:21:32 PM
Welcome to the new covenant.  As Ray says over and over in replies to emails, he (we) cannot tell you what you should be doing.  You have this much wisdom, however:  Whatever you 'do', don't do it like they do.  That's hard enough all by itself.  We're going to grow in grace (the Divine influence on the heart).  Growth requires patience and the inevitability of failures.       
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: Gina on November 30, 2011, 04:45:46 PM
I would say that a physical act can reap a spiritual result.  I mean, God does physical things for us all the time and He's reaping a spiritual result when we worship (obey) Him in spirit and in truth and grow to praise Him, not by merely saying the words "praise ya Lord!" but in actions.  I think that lending an ear to someone who is down is a great way to give.  Regardless, when we give we do it not to be seen of men, even though they may see, that's not why it should be done.  And I'm not saying that everyone in the church system who gives to others is doing it to be seen of men.  Of course not.

But think about this:  When the church does good for others, should it reap feelings of shame and guilt in the ones observing the good works, or result in praise to God? (2 Cor. 9:13)
Beauty is vain and charm is deceitful, but the woman who loves the Lord, she shall be praised.  Give her the reward she has earned, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.  (Prov. 31:31)
Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: mharrell08 on November 30, 2011, 05:20:23 PM
i know we are to give cheerfully as we are able, but should the pursuit of physical good works be our PRIORITY?...should i be spending the MAJORITY of my time, thought & effort in physical good works


or is there a deeper spiritual application to the passage in Matt 25?


John 13:34-35  A new commandment I [Jesus] give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.

1 John 4:19-21  We love Him because He first loved us. If someone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

How you treat others, saint or sinner, is how you treat God...that's sums up Matt 25. John confirms as well, you can't love God and not love your brother.

Another point is this: while not everyone is a brother or sister in the faith, we believe they will be soon right? The scriptures teach us to 'reckon' ourselves dead to sin, though we continue to sin everyday. We should, as ministers of the faith, 'reckon' those outside the faith as soon to be brothers & sisters in the faith and love them appropriately.

That doesn't mean we should approve their false doctrines. But it means we shouldn't wait until after they are of like mind to assist them. That's a big difference in how the church provides...they push their agenda and if one doesn't go along with it, the aid stops. Maybe not everyone of them, but a good majority. I've heard of classes and commitments members of a church must make before even being heard for assistance. Think and talk like them, get a hand out...if not, move on. So don't be intimidated by a church and it's members 'good works'.

Title: Re: physical vs. spiritual
Post by: River on December 01, 2011, 04:37:27 PM
Here we can see the difference in physical and spiritual.

John 4:13
Jesus answered and said to her, 'Every one who is drinking of this water shall thirst again;
John 6:27
work not for the food that is perishing,


John 4:14 but whoever may drink of the water that I will give him, may not thirst -- to the age; and the water that I will give him shall become in him a well of water, springing up to life age-during.'

John 6:53 Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you.