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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Harry on February 05, 2009, 08:53:58 PM
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A thought has occurred to me regardding the suffering that humanity is being subjected to by God. The thought is based on a principle that is alluded to in the bible ( Ps 90:15, Isa 61:3). I believe this a spiritual law that can be likened to the known physical law that says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. With this law in mind if the eternal phase of our existence will be governed by the temporal phase of our existence how much suffering would we want God to allow? In other words if the height and depth and breadth of our joy and fulfilment in the life to come was only limited by the sorrow and suffering that occurred in this phase how much do we want?
Harry
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It never ceases to amaze me how many different ways
a topic is approached on this forum.
Hey Harry,
Try reading this older thread, it might help you
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8705.0.html
Also Lake of Fire 15
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
Hope it helps in you understanding
Antaiwan
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Okay Harry help me out with your question here are the two quotes your referred to, can you explain more about what you mean ?
(Psa 90:15) Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.
(Isa 61:3) To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
How do these scriptures play into what you are asking exactly Are you saying only those who suffer greatly will be rewarded greatly? I do not think we get to choose that exactly.
beloved
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Since God will send the trials in our life, it is also very comforting to know that
1Co 10:13 Trial, hath not taken you, save such as man can bear; faithful, moreover is God, who will not suffer you to be tried above what ye are able, but will make, with the trial, also the way of escape, that ye may be able to hold out.
(Heb 2:18) For, in that, he, suffered when tested, he is able, unto them who are being tested, to give succour.
We are all vessels that were made to temper things differently and the Potter knows exactly what tempering is needed. .
beloved
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OK, I think I need to elaborate a little. Ps 90:15 says "Make us (God and all of humanity)glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us ( Himself and us), and the years wherein we have seen evil". First I will tell you the reason I believe that this verse refers to all of humanity. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed " That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us". Now let me add to that this fact that I'm confident we will all agree on and that is God is the source of all consciousness or in other words all consciousness stems from God because God is the only self-existent eternal being. Simply put..at one time in the past God was the only conscious being in existence. Now God made Adam and breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul and likewise Eve became a living soul...both conscious beings. [ Please bear with me and you will see where all of this is leading]. Now we know that Adam and Eve could not think a thought or have a conscious experience that God did not also experience (because God is omniscient...or all knowing). Now carry that out through the conscious existence of every person that has ever lived and you essentially have the "seed".. so to speak.. for the conscious existence in the spiritual life. Just like our physical bodies are only a seed for our glorified spiritual body (1 cor 15:37-39). Likewise the sum total of humanities conscious existence will be the seed for our spiritual eternal existence. Now take into consideration the fact that we will be made one with the father ( Who contains the sum total of humanities experience) and you will see the unfathomable height and breadth and depth of the life to come. Remembering that the sorrow and pain of this life will be "converted" into Joy and happiness there. Now the question ...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace.
Harry
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Harry"...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace."
well put
Rodger
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Harry,
Why in the Heavens you did not write it just so in the first place. ??? Even i can understand
and roll out my thinking machine again. :) I must commend you for coming out with meaty
things so early in your fellowship here; it is good to see.
george. ;D
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I'm not getting it ??? :-\
Did I miss something?
Should we desire pain and suffering then??
He will only give us what we can bear, how do I know what I can bear??
In the end when I have borne all that I could, that now equates to my Joy and Happiness??
What is my goal then? To have more than the next person?
If I am a part of the father in the end am I a lesser or greater part of the whole??
Someone help me, I think I'm losing it............ :P
I need some scripture :(
Antaiwan
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Harry,
I agree with Antaiwan...what scriptures and/or Ray's teachings can you specifically point out that support what you are saying? The purpose of this board is to discuss scriptures and/or Ray's teachings.
OK, I think I need to elaborate a little. Ps 90:15 says "Make us (God and all of humanity)glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us ( Himself and us), and the years wherein we have seen evil". First I will tell you the reason I believe that this verse refers to all of humanity. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed " That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us". Now let me add to that this fact that I'm confident we will all agree on and that is God is the source of all consciousness or in other words all consciousness stems from God because God is the only self-existent eternal being. Simply put..at one time in the past God was the only conscious being in existence. Now God made Adam and breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul and likewise Eve became a living soul...both conscious beings. [ Please bear with me and you will see where all of this is leading]. Now we know that Adam and Eve could not think a thought or have a conscious experience that God did not also experience (because God is omniscient...or all knowing). Now carry that out through the conscious existence of every person that has ever lived and you essentially have the "seed".. so to speak.. for the conscious existence in the spiritual life. Just like our physical bodies are only a seed for our glorified spiritual body (1 cor 15:37-39). Likewise the sum total of humanities conscious existence will be the seed for our spiritual eternal existence. Now take into consideration the fact that we will be made one with the father ( Who contains the sum total of humanities experience) and you will see the unfathomable height and breadth and depth of the life to come. Remembering that the sorrow and pain of this life will be "converted" into Joy and happiness there. Now the question ...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace.
Harry
This passage in bold in particular...Adam and Eve and all humanity's thoughts are carnal, fleshly. How does that prove that God once had or has carnal thoughts? To have a knowledge of evil and actually commit evil are two separate things.
Marques
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Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).
Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.
I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns. Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing. Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy. Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is). Because God is all in all. But it helps me to look at the core of the process. We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy. Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage. Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy. I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms.
Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience. Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible. Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal ) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness. Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire ) and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife). Here is the example in a nutshell. Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad. God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of the sum total of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstance and...for lack of a better example, created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Harry
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Harry,
If you state that Job 38:15-25 is a reference to what you are stating, please show us. As a matter of fact, please show any scriptures to validate what you are stating.
For instance, this quote...what scriptures are you basing these claims on?
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Harry
Also, you stated you came to the website 2 weeks ago. How do you know that all these 'matters of your personal journey of many years' are in agreement or contrary to Ray's teaching in only 2 weeks? Where are the 2-3 scriptural witnesses as well as their spiritual match (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm [#6 & 7])? These are just some of the basic things that are taught by the scriptures that Ray has taught and pointed out.
Marques
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Hi Harry,
Please interpret what I say as being said in love, with gentleness and respect (hard to infer in written conversation)...
Your question and line of reasoning is interesting, but makes me uncomfortable. It's not passing my "smell test." We've learned not to trust our own reasoning, but rather to rely on 2 or 3 scriptures that spiritually match to establish a truth. THIS is what sets Ray's style of teaching apart. I'm learning to do it myself, but it's awfully hard.
Since Ray hasn't published anything on this subject, we're on THIN ICE discussing it to such detail. Without using scriptures to find spiritual matches, I very much feel like we're just floating on THIN AIR. I suggest that we get our feet on the ground, and quickly, before anyone does or says something we'll regret.
Let me just add, Harry, from experience - do not be in a hurry to teach. I've been in that position for years, and regret so much of what I've taught others now that I know better. I praise God for keeping my mouth closed on several occasions, too!
Steve
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Hi Steve,
I think you have made some really good points. Without Scripture backing up what we say, we have no ground to stand on and it becomes a slippery slope. That's why we have a rule to not bring in your own ideas/teaching.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat, that is what makes life so much easier on this forum! We are really protected here from getting sidetracked by a lot of other teachings. Goodness knows there is enough here to study for all of us! Sticking to what Ray teaches on this forum is what it's all about! Thanks! :D We all like to give our own opinions and ideas, but we have to be careful not to cross the line into teaching! I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, it's just true!
Kathy ;)
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Hey Harry!
I want to try this again. Thanks for elaborating more ;)
If there are good points to be had I want them.
Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).
Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.
I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns. Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing.
Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy.
Why would I do that?
Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is).
Because God is all in all.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
But it helps me to look at the core of the process.
We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy.
We have this?? So our positive and negative energy is free to move about? Or our good and evil is unbounded having no limits or is it limited?
Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage.
Well you just told me to think of them as good and evil
Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy.
Now righteousness has boundaries. In what way? In who can receive it and in who cannot?
How can anything be bound in that which is boundless?
I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms.
I don't see how Job makes reference to any of these statements you have made.
I will meditate more on this one.
Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience. Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible.
On earth or in Heaven??
Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal but walking after the spirit..hopefully everyone :-) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness.
Are you comparing physical with spiritual?
Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire )
Is there an example of this in scripture?
and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife).
What is wrong with wanting pleasure? I take great pleasure in the Law of God(the spiritual Law)
I'm sorry guys I know this is going to set off a lot of wives..... just tell her to cool down..God has it all worked out...and He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think ( Eph 3:20) Here is the example in a nutshell. Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad. God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Again are you comparing physical with spiritual?
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Not really, I feel something is missing? Thanks for trying to explain your points Harry but I need scripture and there is a lot of carnal thinking going on here and I was doing some myself. I think I know what your saying but its not quite there yet. I don't see the good points people are eluding to.
Harry
Thanks for sharing
I hope you continue to do so! :)
Antaiwan
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Harry I hope that you are not feeling that we are picking on you, that is not the intent. We are challenging your thinking a bit.
Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).
Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face
I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns. Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing. Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy. Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is). Because God is all in all. But it helps me to look at the core of the process. We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy. I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job whenNow if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage. Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms.
Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience. Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible. Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal but walking after the spirit..hopefully everyone :-) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness. Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire ) and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife). I'm sorry guys I know this is going to set off a lot of wives..... just tell her to cool down..God has it all worked out...and He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think ( Eph 3:20) Here is the example in a nutshell. Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad. God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why?
Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Harry
You mention the duality of good and evil....and then state that God is all in all scripture does not exactly support that.
All the laws of mixing:, wool with linen ,milk with meat ,the scape goat etc and the warning to separate and come out show us that God who is pure good will not associate with sin and the sinful...so God is not "in" these sinners....yet.
He is workin on it
Eph 1:23 which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all,
(1Co 12:6) and there are diversities of workings, and it is the same God--who is working the all in all.
It will come to pass
1Co 15:28 Now when all the [things] are subjected to Him, then the Son also Himself will be subjected to One having subjected all the [things] to Him, so that God shall be the all in all
I am a bit confused because you define good and evil as positive and negative and then say there is no good or bad....which is this sounds like a shell game of " under which cup is the pea. Duality is what is physical.....only spiritual purity can attain oneness.
You also tend to look at all of this as for our joy.....but look at the scriptures
It is His joy that we will have Jesus being one with Father knew the plan
Heb 12:2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;
Joh 16:24 till now ye did ask nothing in my name; ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
The only way that you can recieve the same answer that jesus got is to have Christ in you..and pray the Will of the Father
Joh 15:11 these things I have spoken to you, that my joy in you may remain, and your joy may be full. Like Rays shows you got to look at the words...it says may remain and may be
Here is something you point too....
Job 38:7 In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy, It will be glorious in the end as it was in the beginning
But none of this is for us...it is for ALL for the Glory of God
He has hidden it for awhile
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of ...
He has promised it
Joh 11:40 Jesus saith to her, `Said I not to thee, that if thou mayest believe, thou shalt see the glory of God
He has shown how it will be done
Php 2:11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
and He tells us why ot was done
(2Co 4:15) For everything is for your sakes, in order that grace, being more richly bestowed because of the thanksgivings of the increased number, may more and more promote the glory of God.
Harry all of us here have these ticks in gnats in our fur and we all need to work hard to get them out (his working in us will do this) , we need to see what God is saying and not try to describe the undescribable...you speak of consciousness do you REALLY know exactly what that is? Yikes thinking about tht gives me a headache.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
All our words need to be examined, so Harry I hope you take this in the spirit given. I see what you are trying to say but I like other also see the carnal aspects that can cloud the thinking.
Rev 21:23 and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb; This is a nice peice of spiritual meat
Never the less your post sure make the heart sing thinking on these things
(Psa 150:1) Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.
(Psa 150:2) Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.
(Psa 150:3) Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
(Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
(Psa 150:5) Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
(Psa 150:6) Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD.
Praise ye the LORD
beloved
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Hi Harry,
Please interpret what I say as being said in love, with gentleness and respect (hard to infer in written conversation)...
Your question and line of reasoning is interesting, but makes me uncomfortable. It's not passing my "smell test." We've learned not to trust our own reasoning, but rather to rely on 2 or 3 scriptures that spiritually match to establish a truth. THIS is what sets Ray's style of teaching apart. I'm learning to do it myself, but it's awfully hard.
Since Ray hasn't published anything on this subject, we're on THIN ICE discussing it to such detail. Without using scriptures to find spiritual matches, I very much feel like we're just floating on THIN AIR. I suggest that we get our feet on the ground, and quickly, before anyone does or says something we'll regret.
Let me just add, Harry, from experience - do not be in a hurry to teach. I've been in that position for years, and regret so much of what I've taught others now that I know better. I praise God for keeping my mouth closed on several occasions, too!
Steve
Thanks, Steve. This is a response worth repeating. :)
René
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Alright...look guys I should have been more careful in the way that I presented the things that I wanted to share with you. I'm sure that I came across as a " Know it all" that was going to teach you guy's something. I know that is not a good way to win friends and it has a tendency to put people on the defensive......I'm sorry. I could try to answer all of the concerns that were voiced regardding the things that I wrote about. And I will be glad to if some of you really want to understand what I was trying to relate to you. Yes I will use as much scripture as I can to back it up. I can tell by the responses that what I was saying was not being understood correctly. But ...it would probably be better not to pile anymore on top of what you guys already have to digest. I know that most of you have recently had to let go of a lot of teachings that you had probably held all of your lives and it is kind of scary to be venturing into unknown territory. Our beliefs can tend to be a type of security blanket for us and it is threatening when you have too much change at one time. I'm confident that if the things that I believe are true.....we will all eventually come into it..whether it's me that shares it with you or someone else. I have read a lot of what Ray teaches and had already come to the same conclusions in my own search...although I had just very recently began to consider that all people might be saved.....Ray provided a short cut for me on that one. I'm not saying this to brag...I'm saying it so you will understand why I'm trying to run ahead...I believe there are other pieces to the puzzle that will clarify things even more for us. But.... As I said it's probably not a good idea to go there right now.
Thanx for your time
Harry
P.S. Don't worry my feelings are not hurt.. although I know I should have been more sensitive
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Hello Harry
I was trying to keep in open mind to your post,and all the responces.
but speaking for myself,it sound as if your speaking in tongues and there no to to interput
venturing to far from home "Gods word"with out supportive Scripture is dangerous to you and others.
we all must stay close to Scripture
I say this all in kindness , Walt
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Wow!!!! The Lord's will be done.....God is bringing good out of my wrong line of thinking.. As I have prayed about this whole matter I realize that all of your concerns are justified and I need to back away from this line of thinking. I'm not going to say that there isn't some truth to what I was promoting....But I'm convinced that I need to forget the whole matter...at least for now. I need to stick with the plain word of God and not think too much...but trust him to lead me into the truth. The one good thing that came of all this is the fact that my pride took a good hit....Please pray that the Lord will give me the grace to be more humble in the future. I thank all of you for your concern. I think he caused this whole thing just for this purpose. God knows I need a good dose of humbling from time to time.
Harry
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Wow!!!! The Lord's will be done.....God is bringing good out of my wrong line of thinking.. As I have prayed about this whole matter I realize that all of your concerns are justified and I need to back away from this line of thinking. I'm not going to say that there isn't some truth to what I was promoting....But I'm convinced that I need to forget the whole matter...at least for now. I need to stick with the plain word of God and not think too much...but trust him to lead me into the truth. The one good thing that came of all this is the fact that my pride took a good hit....Please pray that the Lord will give me the grace to be more humble in the future. I thank all of you for your concern. I think he caused this whole thing just for this purpose. God knows I need a good dose of humbling from time to time.
Harry
Sometimes we have to take a step or two back in order to see the big picture.When one seems to think that strong revelations have been revealed, one has a tendency to want anyone with ears to listen to our newfound wisdom's.More often than not we end up shooting ourselves in the foot,but our intentions are always seemingly good.The best advice that I could give to anyone that really cares about the Spiritual and not the carnal is to take a deep breath,sit back,and start a journey into Rays teachings with the attitude that I'm here to learn, not here to teach. I say this in all sincerity,if you want to know and understand Scripture,read bible-truths.com (http://bible-truths.com) and pray for Spiritual guidance that the will of our Father gives http:// the Grace and Faith to understand this great knowledge, in your heart and mind.The road is a life long journey and not a immediate gratification that can be understood without due diligence.
Always in the Fathers Love and Will.
Peace...Mark
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Hey Harry!
I hope your encouraged to continue here. This a great place to be.
I hope you stick with the word of God and continue to use your mind!
It will definitely be changed through this process.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
The wisdom of this world can cloud and confuse us and sometimes is downright contradictory to the word of God.
I like the way you think but dumb it down so that we all can be edified by it.
Also a lot of scripture will help in the future.
I only hope to help not harm.
It is not my intentions.
Antaiwan
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Will there be different stages of glory in heaven? Say on who has suffered more and overcome, will that person be happier?
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Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
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Judy, Harry,
Just to point out, the 3 Scriptures are not in isolation. Please also look at the text surrounding
them to get the context of what the rewards are for and whose work or increase it is.
Following the rule: no prophecy of Scripture is it's own interpretation.
2Pe 1:20 (MKJV)
knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
Mat 16:25 For whoever desires to save his life shall lose it, and whoever desires to lose his life for My sake shall find it.
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7 So then neither is he who plants anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
1Co 3:8 So he planting, and he watering, are one, and each one shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
1Co 3:9 For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God.
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He acting unjustly, let him still act unjustly. And the filthy, let him be filthy still. And the righteous, let him be righteous still. And the holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life, and they may enter in by the gates into the city.
george :).
Will there be different stages of glory in heaven? Say on who has suffered more and overcome, will that person be happier?
Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
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Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
Okay Harry I hope this stimulates you but I am not sure that the scriptures actually support this idea you posted, You cited three verse but you have to read the words and also finish the sentances
The first quote Mat 16;27
(Mat 16:24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me[/color].
then he tells us about those who do not do this during this life
(Mat 16:25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
(Mat 16:27) For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
G591 ἀποδίδωμι apodidōmi Thayer Definition:1) to deliver, to give away for one’s own profit what is one’s own, to sell 2) to pay off, discharge what is due 2a) a debt, wages, tribute, taxes, produce due 2b) things promised under oath 2c) conjugal duty 2d) to render account 3) to give back, restore 4) to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense
This is word underlined is used 51 times and in most this is not always a positive thing and I do not think it is here either. look at the following use , the same wording
(2Ti 4:14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
The next verse you sited 1 C0 3:8
(1Co 3:7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
(1Co 3:8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
(1Co 3:9) For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Can you see harry that we are not doing anything that God is not orchestrating and it is all His doing ...next line
(1Co 3:10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(1Co 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
We are more like children helping their father fix their car.
Your third quote was Rev 22;12 , you have to look who it talking to. See the line above
(Rev 22:11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
there is a conjunction here
(Rev 22:12) AND, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
μισθός misthos Thayer Definition: 1) dues paid for work 1a) wages, hire
2) reward: used of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavours
2a) in both senses, rewards and punishments 2b) of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavours 2c) of punishments
But I am wondering why people are so enamoured with being always being rewarded
If God is soverign and working in us, even the good things that we do are not of ourselves but of Him.....it all still points back to Him
Look what Jesus himself said
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the work
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.[/b]
Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is how our good works are manifested
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Even before the man believed
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
OUR WORKS ARE ALL NOTHING
act 7:41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.
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Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;).
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
I especially like this couplet
(2Ti 3:16) All Scripture [is] God-breathed and [is] beneficial for teaching [or, doctrine], for verification [or, reproof], for correcting faults, for instruction in righteousness [or, the behavior that God requires],
(2Ti 3:17) that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.
His elect are being fitted....nothing special about them. God always looks for a small group to show His Glory to the world.
No Harry I do not see anyone who is going to feel worthy of a reward then , other than His Beloved Son
Here is our position
(Luk 18:13) And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
(Luk 18:14) I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Beloved
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Amen and thanks, Rodger and Beloved. I never want to lose sight of the Truth that all is about HIS purpose. For me, I reckon if there is STILL 'envy' in 'heaven' then His purpose is not yet fulfilled.
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Harry & Judy,
It has been my understanding for several years that our reward in the Kingdom of God, if it is based on our work or our accomplishments, will just be more work. Work and responsibility for which we have been trained and are now suited to perform for the benefit of others. The main difference is that we will no longer be flesh and will be "spirit" and will never tire of "well doing" and never again need reassurance of pleasing God and our Lord, BECAUSE we will have perfect love for God and perfect trust in His love for us. WE will in effect have laid down our life for our brethren and will be eager to seek God's will in our lives continually. We will only wear a crown in order to identify us to those needing our help and support and fellowship.
The crown that God will give to each one of us will certainly be a badge of honor, but we must always keep in mind that the honor is entirely due to our God and our saviour Jesus for their work in us and not for any particular effort of our own. When a beautiful work of art such as a painting or a unique vase is awarded first prize, the badge of honor goes to the creator and not to the work of art. Of course the work of art wears the badge of honor, the crown, but the HONOR belongs always to the Creator of the art.
God is creating in us the character of His only begotten son Jesus the Christ; that is our reward.
Bob
Hi Judy,
I'm not sure if Ray has covered this issue or not.... I haven't read all of what he has written yet. I personally have read many scriptures that would indicate that our reward will be proportionate to our work . Here are a few, Matt 16:27 , 1 Cor 3:8 , Rev 22:12 . I hope these help.
Harry
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Yes Bob even the crowns will be relinquished to Our Mighty Father and Lord Jesus Christ
(Rev 4:10) fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(Rev 4:11) `Worthy art Thou, O Lord, to receive the glory, and the honour, and the power, because Thou--Thou didst create the all things, and because of Thy will are they, and they were created.'
beloved
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Thanx everyone, for clearing things up in that area......I see what you are saying and agree completely. It makes me feel much better knowing it is not dependent upon my weak and vacillating efforts to do God's will....and in fact it helps me to enter that rest of knowing He is doing with me exactly as he wills for me and I don't need to worry about anything....now, if I can just never forget it :-).
Harry