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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: dave on November 19, 2010, 02:01:58 AM
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The Lord has me spend a good part of my study time in the first four chapters of Genesis; when I find myself not in that study, my reasoning goes to considering as to why is the answer of John 2:4 from Jesus to His mother "seem" to have a tone of less than respectful? Or am I hearing the words wrong when I read them? Also, I believe there is a deeper meaning, first, the mother of Jesus was invited(she was there) and Jesus and the disciples were invited; His mother is the one who speaks up when the wine is gone, and turns to her son, who gives the response I inquire about. Yes, I believe there is a good word to be revealed.
Joh 2:4
(ASV) And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
(CLV) And Jesus is saying to her, "What is it to Me and to thee, woman! Not as yet is My hour arriving."
(KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
(Rotherham) And Jesus saith unto her—What part can I take with thee, O woman? Not yet, hath come, mine hour.
(RYLT-NT) Jesus said to her, 'What -- to me and to you, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
(WNT) "Leave the matter in my hands," He replied; "the time for me to act has not yet come."
(YLT) Jesus saith to her, `What--to me and to thee, woman? not yet is mine hour come.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus
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Hi Micha7:9
Your question : Is there a disrespect? .... throws light to the possibility that perhaps there was no disrespect! 8)
Jesus spoke in Parables.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and My Judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but The Will of The Father which hath sent Me.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with My Father:
Carnality is at enmity with Spirit.
I agree. Disrespect, is only how the carnal mind would see this response which actually is not a response, but a disclosure that the Scriptures edify us to understand, the way in which Jesus communicated, revered, obeyed and understood His Father!
Thank you for your excellent question!
Blessings to you as God inspires you to see beyond the carnal realm of human limitation.
Arc
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Yes, I believe there is a good word to be revealed.
Micah,
I'm not sure what you mean when you say a 'good word to be revealed'. It's a judgmental question you are asking and each person's opinion will vary. And I'm pretty sure you won't find many people willing to judge our Lord's words and call them disrespectful.
Jesus told her, in layman's terms: 'What difference is this matter ('who cares' or 'why is this important') of wine between you and me? My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.' Jesus spoke the truth, which to some will always sound uncomfortable. But that does not make it disrespectful.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"
I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?
Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.
Thank you.
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"Jesus spoke in Parables. " Arc
That was the thought when was reading. Thank you for your input.
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Just like here on the forum, when you can not see the demeanor of a person, the expression of their face or hear the tone of their voice, and all the little minute details that we assess when speaking with someone, then you have the opportunity to misread the mere words you read. So I do not believe for a moment Jesus would ever say anything to His mother that was unkind. As Marques said Jesus was just explaining to her the situation, but you will note that He did do as she requested.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
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" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"
I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?
Those passages speak of Jesus gathering His disciples. They don't say He was preaching to the masses as yet. Jesus turning water into wine is thought to be His first miracle, that is the perspective I was speaking of.
Whether Jesus was talking about preaching the gospel or just His sacrifice, either way, Jesus made the point that worrying about wine is no where near important as to the job He was sent to do.
Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.
Thank you.
When I use the word judge, it's not with a direct negative connotation. It's simply means to use one's own 'judgment' to discern whether a matter was right/wrong/, good/bad, etc. We can judge a situation in a positive light.
But the fact remains, whether we say 'disrespect' or 'had a tone' or whatever, the question is still the same. It's a judgmental question: you are asking whether we think Jesus answer to His mother's questions was right/wrong, respectful/disrespectful, etc. At least, that is what I understand the question of the subject to be.
We don't know if Jesus' mother made a 'seemingly harmless question'. It only seems harmless to us because we are only given very little details of this event. There's no telling how many times she asked Him to do this. And she also knows from her pregnancy that Jesus was sent to do much more important matters than turning water into wine. And like Kat says: He STILL did it.
I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I believe you when you say you don't believe Jesus was unkind to His mother. But when you starting off asking was His words disrespectful, that led to confusion. If you didn't believe it, why even ask?
As far as whether Jesus words had more meaning than what was said, this is why the 12 Truths paper is a great guideline to follow. Yes, Jesus spoke in parables but no parable is it's own interpetation (Truth #9). We must compare Jesus' words of spirit in His response to a spiritual match (Truth #8). We need 2-3 witnesses that can attest to whatever point you believe is being made (Truth #6).
So what do you believe the spiritual message is in His response?
Marques
P.S. Please do not take my direct approach as strife with you. I think this is an interesting study, Micah. :)
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Hi micah 7:9
I appreciate your perseverance. I agree with you, Jesus spoke truthfully in the Scripture you have presented where He informs us that His Hour had not yet come.
The hour that Jesus says had not yet come, was truly as He said. It wasn't the hour when He performs miracles and is believed, but when He doesn't perform any miracle and is betrayed and abandoned - THAT is the hour Jesus tells us.
Jesus tells us when that hour is.
Mat 26:45 Then cometh He to His disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, THE HOUR is at hand, and the THE SON OF MAN IS BETRAYED INTO THE HANDS OF SINNERS.
Mat 26:55 In THAT SAME HOUR said Jesus to THE MULTITUDES, Are ye COME OUT AS AGAINST A THIEF WITH SWORDS AND STAVES for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. THEN ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM AND FLED.
Nothing could happen to Him before THAT HOUR:
Joh 7:30 Then they sought to take Him: but no man laid hands on Him, because His hour was not yet come.
WE enter that same hour of Christ when we are betrayed, abandoned and we are not performing any miracles. THAT’S our hour too, of, with and in Christ.
Joh 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
micah7:9 the Scripture you present does disclose the hour of Christ, as an hour of sorrow in abandonment, grief in rejection, as the world celebrates. There are no miracles in that hour. This is an important hour. It marks the believers hour too, when abandoned and rejected for Faith of Christ and believing God, we endure, much suffering and tribulation to enter into the Joy of The Kingdom of God. :)
When the world betrays, abandons and rejects us, and when there are no more miracles to perform for the world, THAT'S as the hour Jesus Christ anticipated, declared and endured.
Blessings
Arc
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I can see what you say about the hour. I just see all of what Jesus did as significant to our growing. We read that Jesus, his disciples, and His mother were invited to a wedding that would run out of wine and it is His mother who is notified and she turns to her son Jesus with the need. And Jesus states a truth that His hour has not yet come makes me to reason that there is much to understand and glean from the first of the signs of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
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" My time to preach the gospel has not yet come.'"
I thought that Jo. 1:38-51 shows Jesus was already if not at least started to preach. Doesnt "my hour has not come..." doesnt that speak of His time of sacrifice?
Those passages speak of Jesus gathering His disciples. They don't say He was preaching to the masses as yet. Jesus turning water into wine is thought to be His first miracle, that is the perspective I was speaking of.
Whether Jesus was talking about preaching the gospel or just His sacrifice, either way, Jesus made the point that worrying about wine is no where near important as to the job He was sent to do.
Maybe the word disrespect was wrong. It just "sounds" like there is a tone for a seemingly harmless question. I don't expect that people should judge, and I hope you don't think my question was a judging one. I reason that whatever my Lord spoke that there is word of knowledge within.
Thank you.
When I use the word judge, it's not with a direct negative connotation. It's simply means to use one's own 'judgment' to discern whether a matter was right/wrong/, good/bad, etc. We can judge a situation in a positive light.
But the fact remains, whether we say 'disrespect' or 'had a tone' or whatever, the question is still the same. It's a judgmental question: you are asking whether we think Jesus answer to His mother's questions was right/wrong, respectful/disrespectful, etc. At least, that is what I understand the question of the subject to be.
We don't know if Jesus' mother made a 'seemingly harmless question'. It only seems harmless to us because we are only given very little details of this event. There's no telling how many times she asked Him to do this. And she also knows from her pregnancy that Jesus was sent to do much more important matters than turning water into wine. And like Kat says: He STILL did it.
I don't believe that there is a misreading, and I don't believe for a moment that Jesus said anything unkind to His mother. The situation was certainly in His plan, I also must believe that His mothers request was not what caused Jesus to begin His ministry. If Jesus only spoke in parables, as I understand, then am I in error to believe that there is more to His words that what we read?
John 2:11 This beginning of the signs Jesus does in Cana of Galilee, and manifests His glory, and His disciples believe in Him.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
I believe you when you say you don't believe Jesus was unkind to His mother. But when you starting off asking was His words disrespectful, that led to confusion. If you didn't believe it, why even ask?
As far as whether Jesus words had more meaning than what was said, this is why the 12 Truths paper is a great guideline to follow. Yes, Jesus spoke in parables but no parable is it's own interpetation (Truth #9). We must compare Jesus' words of spirit in His response to a spiritual match (Truth #8). We need 2-3 witnesses that can attest to whatever point you believe is being made (Truth #6).
So what do you believe the spiritual message is in His response?
Marques
P.S. Please do not take my direct approach as strife with you. I think this is an interesting study, Micah. :)
I find no strife my friend
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I don't think any disrespect was shown here by Jesus towards Mary.
I know that God does whatever, whenever, where ever he wants at any time.
And that he rewards us when we obey him and place our trust, and faith in him.
I am reminded that Mary told the servants to "do whatever he tells you to do." (Faith)
I see it as God making a concession and giving a small taste of the great things to come.
If I go to the kitchen and my wife is making a mouth watering meal and I ask for something to eat or DRINK she very well may say " get away its not ready yet". But if I'm carefull, she may let me have a little taste of this, or that. LOL 8)
Never the less, it was a wonderfull thing for Jesus to do, at the start of his ministry.
Joel
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Does Ray have any work to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?
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Does Ray have any work to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?
None that I can recall, perhaps another member can find an excerpt.
I was still waiting your response as to what you thought the spiritual significance of Jesus' response regarding the wine...
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Does Ray have any work to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?
None that I can recall, perhaps another member can find an excerpt.
I was still waiting your response as to what you thought the spiritual significance of Jesus' response regarding the wine...
I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or 3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood) the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.
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Ah! So that's it micah7:9 ;D 8)
The words God speaks are Spirit and Truth. The words God speaks are symbols and parables. We are to understand the Spirit with spiritual comprehension not carnal translation. 8)
Certainly, the Scriptures are not superficial!
I enjoyed that vs 9 "the servants which drew the water knew" :) Those servants who obeyed but did not have any knowledge or relationship with Christ, at the prompting of His Mother (Our Mother is Heavenly Jerusalem) got involved! The servants were to remain in the background in the duration of the Ministry and life of Christ, and did not follow Christ as His Disciples, yet they, the servants KNEW.
Servants of obedience who know, aren't the same as those who are pained to reject Who they know, as was Peter when he denied knowing Christ. We become Heirs and no longer servants, by the Spirit of God. 8)
Blessings
Arc
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Wow good stuff micah7:9. I see now you never really thought that there was any disrespect on Jesus' part, but that it was just your way of introducing the deeper meaning. Just as Arcturus said, most (the many) would probably see it as a sign of disrespect on Jesus' part, but not the few.
It's so easy to misunderstand someone on these forums isn't it? I've seen it a lot, and I know I've done it a few times myself. As Ray always says, "pay attention to all the words", and re-read them a few times just in case. ;D I guess this could go for anything anyone writes anywhere.
Peace,
G.Driggs
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Hello all, when I read this about Jesus being disrespectful, I thought, it kinda does sound that way to me, because I wonder why He would call His mother, women, rather than mother.
Bless you all. Ricky
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I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or 3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood) the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.
Hey Micah7:9
Is this the "good word" you were referring to?
I'm still unsure of exactly what your saying?
The number 6 is not the number of man.
Are you possibley referencing:
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Why is this significant in this instance? Because of the six pots? Where is the spiritual match for this??
This statement is perplexing:
There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Can you clear this up?
Your making a lot of assumptions with no scriptures to show.
Your attempting to interpret the meaning of the objects used in this section of scriptures,
but remember:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Just provide us some scriptures.
This could be a good study subject
Hope this helps
Antaiwan
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There is nothing that I can give you that will answer your request so I must remove what I was given. I will say that I had no intention of causing any out of order post. I see that I have crossed some boundries, I had no thoughts of having a "private interpretation" I apologize for my post. I will not apologize for what the Lord gave me.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.
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My thoughts...on 6 ...man was created on the sixth day.
This was a happening, the fact that Jesus, the disciples, and His mother were at a wedding and things happened, makes it a happening.
The comleteness is the servants doing what they are asked, the pots being filled to the brim and that the best wine was kept for the last.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
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Dear Peace and Love Through Jesus,
We are counseled, taught and instructed to “Pay attention to the words.” L Ray Smith
Type the word six into e-sword and you get it no less than 190 times in the Scriptures!
We know that God’s words are Spirit and Truth. He speaks with us in symbols parables and metaphors.
Rightly or wrongly, the symbolic meaning of the word six, is not expounded here in BT. I think it is safe to say that everything about God and every Word of God, is not disclosed to us yet. Also there is no one anywhere, everywhere, any time, who has published everything there is to yet know about God.
Every one of us is at our own individual point of understanding God. It would be nice if we were all the same but we’re not. Some are ahead of us and some behind us and that is applicable to ALL OF US.
To disarm contention, defuse inferiority complexes and the divisive spirit of comparison from gaining influence, the BTF permits only that we share discussion around what has already been documented and expounded by Ray Smith. That’s not a small territory to begin with either! It is a solid runway to the flight path into the vast Kingdom of Gods Spirit and Truth.
If you want to discuss things that are not published by Ray, then the PM lines accommodate that exchange, or email also may suffice. The purpose of the BTF is to clear the spiritual flightpath for takeoff and have no Lear Jets, Tom Cat F16’s or Cessna’s landing on the run way!
My regrets to both you and BTF and its valuable members and Moderators, that I may have inadvertently, given the clearance to land! :( God works all things together for good. :)
Blessings
Arc
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I will say that I had no intention of causing any out of order post. I see that I have crossed some boundries, I had no thoughts of having a "private interpretation" I apologize for my post.
Micah, no problem and nothing to apologize for. Every once in a while a post gives a moderator pause to consider what is being discussed. We realize the "No Teaching" rule is confusing and about as "clear as mud", how can any discussions not have some of our own "ideas" or "teaching" come through? That said, Deb said it better than I...
Every one of us is at our own individual point of understanding God. It would be nice if we were all the same but we’re not. Some are ahead of us and some behind us and that is applicable to ALL OF US.
To disarm contention, defuse inferiority complexes and the divisive spirit of comparison from gaining influence, (or to allow possible false teaching, Craig) the BTF permits only that we share discussion around what has already been documented and expounded by Ray Smith. That’s not a small territory to begin with either!
Don't anyone be afraid to post, just try to keep the spirit of the no teaching rule in mind and if needed the moderators will sort it out. But what if a member has been given new revelations? I'm sorry, but the moderators are not here to make the judgment if it is of God, so in those instances we will step in.
Craig
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Dear Peace and Love Through Jesus,
We are counseled, taught and instructed to “Pay attention to the words.” L Ray Smith
Type the word six into e-sword and you get it no less than 190 times in the Scriptures!
We know that God’s words are Spirit and Truth. He speaks with us in symbols parables and metaphors.
Yes, but a spiritual match is not simply having the same word, number, object, etc. being used in a scripture. They have to be in accord with one another, as in speaking of the same truth. Here's two examples from scriptures using the word 'fire': http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12517.0.html
Finding the same word in e-sword is a good start, but then spiritual discernment is required to understand what is a spiritual match and what is simply the same word being used to show another perspective.
Marques
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Hey Micah 7:9
I have no doubt that the numbers used in the Bible have a meaning when used in conjunction with the happening, or the historical account being described.
When I was young I knew of a man in my area that went around giving talks on Bible numbers, and how they are used in the scriptures and how they repeat. He also had a definition that he gave for each one. He would sale you a book for three dollars or so, ??? that you could buy and use in your own studies.
I bought one at his shoe repair shop and read it through with great interest, it depends on who you are talking to as to what they say the number stands for.
As I heard a preacher that totally disagreed with him on the number 3, I believe it was.
I came across several books on the subject back at that time (1976) and one man went to court over plagiarism, concerning the subject.
It is a interesting subject when reading the Bible and when it gives a certain number, to check it out in other places where the same number is used. Like say the #40, Moses was 40 years as a Shepard before the burning bush, and the children of Israel were in the desert wilderness for 40 years also.
One is God, two is a wittiness, three is perfect, four is dispensations, five is grace, six is man, seven is completeness, eight is rebirth, nine is fruits of the Spirit, ten is Law, eleven is incompleteness, twelve is government.
He went on to give a definition for other numbers as well, are these all correct? I don't know, are they written in stone?
It is an interesting subject, and I think of that man sometimes, he said he was half Jew on his mothers side. He died in 93 I think.
Joel
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It is good that we don't strive about words. To strive, produces envy, strife, railings and evil surmising.
It is more splendid to hold fast the form of sound words, which we have heard of Christ, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 8)
The Scriptures are in accord with one another. God doesn’t contradict Himself anywhere any time, ever!
Ray teaches quote : There is a spiritual match for every symbol in the book of Revelation.
There are no useless words in the Word of God. All words of God are Spirit and Truth and not one word of God contradicts.
Scriptures of prophesy, are not of any “private” interpretation. Strong’s Concordance translates private to mean pertaining to self, separate, apart or alone. No Prophesy of God’s Word is alone. It is not to be taken apart, or used on its own, separated from other Scripture. Why? Because Prophesy is not of men but of the Holy Spirit!
Blessings, as we all progress to correctly divide the word of God and come to know the Spirit of Christ.
Arc
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It is good that we don't strive about words. To strive, produces envy, strife, railings and evil surmising.
It is more splendid to hold fast the form of sound words, which we have heard of Christ, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 8)
The Scriptures are in accord with one another. God doesn’t contradict Himself anywhere any time, ever!
No one has stated the scriptures are not in accord with one another. I stated that a spiritual match must be in accord or in agreement. I used the example of fire in scripture.
Jesus talking about judgment fire is not the same as the children of Israel sacrificing their children in fire. We can avoid "striving about words" by not putting words in each other's mouths.
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It's all worthless without love.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of a part,
1Co 12:28 whom also God, indeed, placed in the ecclesia, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, thereupon powers, thereupon graces of healing, supports, pilotage, species of languages."
1Co 12:29 Not all are apostles. Not all are prophets. Not all are teachers. Not all have powers.
1Co 12:30 Not all have the graces of healing. Not all are speaking languages. Not all are interpreting.
1Co 12:31 Yet be zealous for the greater graces. And still I am showing you a path, suited to transcendence.
1Co 13:1 If I should be speaking in the languages of men and of the messengers, yet should have no love, I have become resounding copper or a clanging cymbal."
1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, I am nothing."
Col 3:12 Put on, then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, pitiful compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, patience,
Col 3:13 bearing with one another and dealing graciously among yourselves, if anyone should be having a complaint against any. According as the Lord also deals graciously with you, thus also you.
Col 3:14 Now over all these put on love, which is the tie of maturity."
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ be arbitrating in your hearts, for which you were called also in one body; and become thankful."
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ be making its home in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing yourselves; in psalms, in hymns, in spiritual songs, singing, with grace in your hearts to God."
Whether or not these Scriptures witness each other I do not know for sure, but it sure seems like it according to what little grace God has given me.
So please I respectfully ask, let it all be for the sake of Love.
Peace to all
G.Driggs
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John from Kentucky, I hear you about the mother and son quips. My son gets irritated with me too.
But about Mary, the mother, I found it surprising (never saw it before) Mary obviously knew Jesus was going to begin a ministry or wouldn't she have said, "what"?
And as far as a sharp reply, let me tell you. People of a few generations ago and some today still give blunt responses. I used to be offended by these seemingly sharp answers but finally realized not everyone is a company relationship manager. Jesus most likely had more important things on His mind. And if His mother knew about his upcoming ministry perhaps He was taken aback that she would interfere with the timing of it all.
Just a thought. judy
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Hi G.Driggs
Those Scriptures are beautiful brother.
Judy, you noted something wonderfully inspiring! 8)
Nothing surprises God, and He can marvel at us!
Blessings of His marvelous Spirit as He works all to good in accord to the Council of His Will.
Arc
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Judy and John,
My grown children don't want to hear what I have to say, either and I have a much better relationship with them now that I keep my opinions to myself. Although it is hard sometimes - kinda like watching a train wreck.
I also, with my carnal mind wondered (past tense) about some of Jesus' sayings. In addition to the one discussed here, let the dead bury the dead and His brothers and mother were those who follow and obey Me(paraphrase).
I was afraid to join the forum for years because I wasn't sure I understood teh rules.
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Does Ray have any work to read on Jesus' first sign? Or any paper on John 2?
None that I can recall, perhaps another member can find an excerpt.
I was still waiting your response as to what you thought the spiritual significance of Jesus' response regarding the wine...
I understand the number six is the number of man, and is for Adam/man. The pots were for washings/purifying (law) which had 2 or 3 firkins; 2 is the number of witness and 3 is the number of completness. There was a happening (witness)and there would be a completness, yet with partial understanding.
Jesus said fill the water pots with water and they filled them to the brim, here we have complete filling to the brim which represents a complete work, but the washing of the water(law) was past and a new washing was presenting Himself. The wine, the best wine was now offered to the Governor (leader/religion) and represents the cleansing power of the Blood of Jesus. The washing water is changed to wine(blood) the cleansing power of the Blood of the Lamb. The cleansing and regeneration, the renewing for the new man.
Not intending to start/continue a numerology debate, but from what I have learned from the Scriptures (and I believe Ray teaches this too), the number for completeness would be 7, not 3.
Gen 2:2 And finishing is the Elohim, on the sixth day, His work which He does. And ceasing is He on the seventh day from all His work which He does. The Creation period was now complete.
Exo 21:2 When you buy a Hebrew servant, six years shall he serve you, and in the seventh he shall go forth free gratuitously. The servant has completed his time.
Lev 25:3 Six years shall you sow your field, and six years shall you prune your vineyard and gather its yield.
4 Yet in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of cessation for the land, a sabbath to Yahweh. Your field you shall not sow, and your vineyard you shall not prune;"
Rev 1:19 Write then, what you perceived, and what they are, and what is about to be occurring after these things:"
Rev 1:20 the secret of the seven stars which you perceived in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands. The seven stars are messengers of the seven ecclesias, and the seven lampstands are seven ecclesias." As Ray teaches in his Lake of Fire, this speaks of the WHOLE Ecclesia of God, not just the 7 in Asia.
Rev 3:1 And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Sardis write: 'Now this He is saying Who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars: '"I am aware of your acts, that you have a name that you are living, and are dead." Representing THE Spirit of God. (Obviously, God doesn't "have" 7 spirits, seeing that He "IS Spirit" John 4:24)
Perhaps the number 3 may have something to do with judgment or penalty:
Jon 1:17 And Yahweh is assigning a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah is coming to be in the bowels of the fish three days and three nights. His penalty for disobeying God.
Mat 12:39 Yet He, answering, said to them, "A generation, wicked and an adulteress, for a sign is seeking, and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet."
40 For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." Paying the penalty for our sins.
...But I am no expert in biblical numerology. ;) Hope this helps.
Christopher 8)
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I have read that 3 and 7 were both a number of completeness, still you make a good point. One of the reasons I have felt that 3 was a number of completeness, 1) out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, 2) was the teaching that man is made up of body, soul, and spirit, which I no longer believe. Man is made up of body and breath and IS a living soul, showing that man does not have a soul, again man is a soul. So I can see you point about 3. Thanks.
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I had heard many years ago that God made life and everything in it by the #3, water has 3 elements to it, air has 3, and so on. Has anyone heard of this.
Ricky
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Hi Joel ~
The man who concluded that the meaning of the number three, is quote “perfect” might have been influenced by our dependence on the Scriptures to ferret out the truth that we believe only the Word of God can qualify. We cannot ask him how he arrived at three meaning PERFECT, because as you say, he has since died.
Perhaps it is closer to the truth to say that three more fittingly refers to a section, chapter, segment, division or part, which is total?
I hope you can see that, we mean no disrespect or offense to the man you knew who gave talks on Bible numbers. God saw fit to bring before us berens to study, discuss, measure and evaluate in open desire for edification, exercised discernment and blessing to apply what Ray teaches that we all pay more attention to the words!
I have one regret. I believe that the man you once knew as a youngster, who found great passion to study the meanings of numbers, was not with us in the PM lines, to discuss his passion in relation to Biblical standards.
I believe he might have been delighted to study with us and he certainly would have been most welcome!
Blessings
Arc
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I think this subject has run its course.
Let us try to keep General Discussions based on what we have learned from Ray's teachings. It leads to less confusion and strife.