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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: TheRysta on June 24, 2009, 01:00:11 PM
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We always hear of testimonies from people who say they've been to or seen hell.
Are there any testimonies from people out there who say that they have been shown that hell is NOT real?
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We always hear of testimonies from people who say they've been to or seen hell.
Are there any testimonies from people out there who say that they have been shown that hell is NOT real?
I'm not sure how anyone could be 'shown' anything that is not real...for if it does not exist, how can it be seen?
But these scriptures testify of what we know and believe to be true [...let God be true, but every man a liar...(Rom 3:14)]:
John 3:10-12 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
John 7:6-7 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
1 John 4:13-14 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Exactly, it's like when someone says;
"I have proof that God doesn't exist!"
OH REALLY? To quote ray. lol. You can't have PROOF of something that doesn't EXIST.
LOL
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Well, you probably won't ever be able to travel the world in a private jet and make lots of $$$ telling people that God really does love ALL His Creation and that there is no Hell... hence you probably won't ever hear a 'testimony' of someone claiming they saw 'proof' that Hell doesn't exist.
Nope, BT is the closest you'll ever get...
- Daywalker. 8)
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We always hear of testimonies from people who say they've been to or seen hell.
Are there any testimonies from people out there who say that they have been shown that hell is NOT real?
We always Hearof testimonies, thats all i have to say about that.
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Actually, I have read a few. Most near death delusions involve seeing one's life pass before their eyes. In a few of them, they say they met jesus and he revealed that he would never create such a place.
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i can say this for a fact, that ray smith, as well as many of our forum family have been shown through His Spirit, with our eyes of Spiritual understanding, that INDEED hell is NOT real (except in the blinded minds of churchianity)!!!
claudia
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Actually, I have read a few. Most near death delusions involve seeing one's life pass before their eyes. In a few of them, they say they met jesus and he revealed that he would never create such a place.
Now THIS is interesting. If I could find a few of these then that would be great.
I don't care if 'visions' are genuine or not. All I need are SOME accounts of people shown that there is no hell to prove that they are not reliable.
As for the spirit showing and stuff... I really have no experience of the Spirit, so I don't understand what you're talking about. I have felt a nice feeling once when praying but it really wasn't THAT intense. I've been told that once I feel the Spirit I will know it. It seems though from here, that the Spirit tells different people different things.
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All I need are SOME accounts of people shown that there is no hell to prove
Why do you need to prove anything? Be familiar with scripture and let God do the proving.
Craig
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All I need are SOME accounts of people shown that there is no hell to prove
Why do you need to prove anything? Be familiar with scripture and let God do the proving.
Craig
I am with Craig on this one
kenny
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The proof and testimonies you seek are in the scriptures.
Roy
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All I need are SOME accounts of people shown that there is no hell to prove
Why do you need to prove anything? Be familiar with scripture and let God do the proving.
Craig
Ryan my brother. :)
As Craig has stated, why do you need proof of silly notions that you seem to want too capitalize on as of late ???. This forum is a Godsend to all those that use it as such.Carnal matters of the heart should be well left alone to the babylonian heart, of which, there are formats all over the web for such inquiries.If you don't mind me saying,why not spend your time reading and studying Rays teaching's here at BT's, in tandem with Scripture.This will at least bring about a more Spiritual condition of the questions that you pose. ;)
All for the Praise and Glory to the Father,in Christs Love.
Peace...Mark
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Well said Marky mark.
Matt :)
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I always like to listen to what Ray says about scriptural proof. Show me 2 scriptures that prove or disprove anything. I kinda think you won't find it. NB
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We have to be careful never to let experiences, dreams, manifestations etc. persuade us away from what the scriptures teach. The word is our guideline and should be our bottom line!
God bless
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Friend TheRysta,
Regarding God's voice and learning from Him, please consider.
From my experience the relationship may be something like this:
We study our Bible for years and then one day as we read and pray for clarity, a sense of understanding washes over us, words make sense and we are pleased to see with new eyes. OR we struggle with resentment over some hurtful words spoken against us by a friend and then after sincere prayer for relief, a feeling of forgiveness enters our mind and heart and we no longer hold on to the resentment that was eating away at our guts.
in John 10:4 "And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice." We learn that Jesus' followers recognize his voice and recognize truth when they see it, because they are shown truth by a miracle of God.
So, please don't expect any special tingly feeling every time you study the truth. If it happens at all it is when you realize that you have once again been shown a deeper truth and can now apply it in your daily life. For example how did I feel when I first realized that I didn't have to carry my past sins with me the rest of my life; that I didn't have to perform works to make up for past sins and that my works from then forward were based on love and appreciation for perfect forgiveness? Well I felt wonderful and at peace and that was a "still small voice speaking in my ear or mind" that allowed me to accept Jesus' sacrifice and God's love. It isn't often a strong and powerful voice, but it is a feeling of contentment and knowing that you are safe and that your future is in the hands of a true friend; Lord Jesus.
Actually, I have read a few. Most near death delusions involve seeing one's life pass before their eyes. In a few of them, they say they met jesus and he revealed that he would never create such a place.
As for the spirit showing and stuff... I really have no experience of the Spirit, so I don't understand what you're talking about. I have felt a nice feeling once when praying but it really wasn't THAT intense. I've been told that once I feel the Spirit I will know it. It seems though from here, that the Spirit tells different people different things.
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We have to be careful never to let experiences, dreams, manifestations etc. persuade us away from what the scriptures teach. The word is our guideline and should be our bottom line!
God bless
Amen brother. ;D
george.
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All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.
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I think if you were to just eat a huge helping of chili with beans, a few dozen halapeno peppers, then head straight to bed. You might just have a "spiritual dream" that you could then use to travel all over the world making millions telling people of your dream that there is no hell. Just a thought :)
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There is absolutely no such thing as a real testimony of hell.
People all of their lives have heard about hell stories. It gets into their subconscious and becomes a fictitious fear. And then there are those that straight up lie about witnessing hell..
The power of suggestion can be very powerful. Its only in their carnal minds, and that's all there is to it.
You can believe the lies, or you can believe the scriptures. Which do you believe?
Peace
Roy
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Ryan,
Maybe you could look at it this way: If you wanted to deceive someone would you want them to learn to fear and hate God because he might burn them forever in hell thereby being able to control the greatest number of people with the least amount of effort OR Would you just let them believe that God loves them so much and He is such an awesome God that He would never torture His children for all eternity? There would be no way to control them if they knew that God is NOT a God of fire and vengeance!! Do you see this Ryan?
The ones who believe hell is real are the ones who are afraid that if they DON'T believe it they're doomed to it!! The ones who DON'T believe in a literal burn-forever hell are NOT afraid that they will end up there. SO for some reason people are SO deceived that even the scriptures can't convince them there is no hell, there are people on this forum who can tell you that!
So if you were the deceiver, which way would you use try to convince a lot of people that they'd better work hard and be good so God will love and accept them..hmm you'd try to scare them! God doesn't need to give anyone a vision of what hell ISN'T because He has given us pure insight in the scriptures that there IS NO hell. Someone else can explain it a lot better than I..We have proof that we serve an awesome Living God who, just as no human parent would continue to spank a child for days on end for disobeying would never punish His children for eternity...
I hope I haven't added to your confusion,
Kathy ;)
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All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.
Ryan, I don't understand your above statement. Now you've got me confused.
Is your statement a question? You have just used two negatives in the above sentence.
If you can't be convinced or convicted that the Hell doctrine is false, then I don't know what else to tell you.
Are you seriously studying any of Ray's writings? I don't want to be rude to you Ryan, but this is not a kindergarten class.
You have had more scriptural truths and understanding given to you here than most people will ever get in their lifetime, can't you see that? No you probably do not. I do know what a young man of 17 feels like, I was a young man of 18 many years ago. Please reread Ray's Lake of Fire series.
Take your time. When I go over any part of that series, which I have more than once, I can tell you that I always come away with more understanding than I had previously. I honestly hope that your eyes will be opened.
Sincerely,Bluzman
P.S. Is it hotter down south than it is in the summer?
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All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.
I toyed with that thought once. But, which would you believe? Scriptures, or dubious testimonies that may be completely fabricated/unscriptural? Sure, they are good sources of encouragement, but ultimately, only scripture matters. You don't need testimonies to learn the truth.
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All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.
Okay, let's look at this logically. I see apples and oranges. Carnal man, men with $ signs in their eyes, writing books, evil men wishing to scare people into joining a church, etc. tell us they've seen an imaginary place. Why then must God give visions to dispell these lies?
Obviously the one is of man and the other would have to be sent by God, right?
I don't need a vision. He opened my eyes through the Holy Spirit and gave me an understanding of His Word.
Which version of the gospel do you believe? That Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that we will be saved from permanent death, the wages of our sin? (easy to find clear, outright scripture for)
Or that Jesus died for only those who believe in His name before death and if we die in our sins without believing, we will go straight to hell? Beliefs NOT backed up by a single scripture.
You don't have to be a Bible scholar to just go to the Word and do a study. See which gospel you can back up with scripture.
My husband asked my BIL directly to give him the Scripture that said we had to be saved BEFORE death to be saved. This man has his doctorate in theology and is a pastor. He said, "There isn't one." But he still chooses to believe it. Let the Word teach you through the Holy Spirit. You don't need the testimony of men.
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We can discuss this subject until the cows come home, but The Scriptures Say it this way very Explicitly.
1Timothy 4: 1-16 (EMTV)
1 Now the Spirit explicitly says, that in latter times some will fall away from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having been seared with a hot iron as to their own conscience,
3 forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who are believers and have come to know the truth.
4 Because every creature of God is good, and not one is to be rejected, being received with thanksgiving,
5 for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.
6 Instructing the brothers in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, being nourished by the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.
7 But reject profane and old wives' tales, and exercise yourself unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise is profitable a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the present life and of the coming life.
9 Trustworthy is this word and worthy of all acceptance.
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no one despise your youth, but become a pattern for the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Until I come, give attention to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
15 Meditate on these things; be in these things, so that your progress may be evident to all.
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
george. :)
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This is the thing. I've been reading Smith's papers and asking questions left, right and centre and I still really don't even understand how I can be 'shown things by the Holy Spirit'. I mean, how do you know? What the heck is it like? And since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?
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Hi TheRysta,
The first problem might be;
........since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?
Seeking a "logical consensus around the world" is a sure recipe for failure, our journey is a One on one walk with our Lord not to have universal agreement in doctrines or knowledge. The wisdom of seeking Him first and foremost is the key to any spiritual growth.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Co 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
I hope this is of some help.
Peace,
Joe
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Rysta, I don't know about you. But, the Spirit in me is judging me and showing me I am a Beast. There are so many days I can barely stand myself. It is the Holy Spirit working in me. Before, I thought I was a fairly good person. Now, my mind has been changed on that. I use to think other people were fairly good. Now, I just judge myself. The Holy Spirt has showed me so much wrong with me. Tonight, my Mother shared with me that there are days she can barely stand herself. She is 88 years old. She has never believed in most of Babylons teachings. But, there is a Spirit in her showing her that she is not fairly good. It made me feel good that she sees she is a Beast. I love her and hope she is wanting to overcome all the pain and her own flaws. God knows what he is doing. I know, it is the Holy Spirit cause before I thought I was doing ok. I was not doing anything, of myself. I failed at that. Now, he is actually help me to overcome some sins, but still showing me a whole bunch of them.
In order to be a chosen we have to learn the fruits of the Spirit. Not just knowing what they are but actually living them out.
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Self-Control
Why would God want us to help judge if we cannot live them. I would not want someone to judge me if they lacked patience or gentleness. I see all of those things because the Holy Spirit is all of those things. I know, because he has been faithful in all those areas with me.
I guess what I am saying is that how could one not know that God is judging them and working on them. I believe they do know if they see the Beast.
I use to work with a woman from Jordan. She did not think God needed a Son. Not everyone in the world believes as we do. God is not judging everone in this life time. But, they will know once he opens there eyes and ears. They will go through judgement and they will see how wrong they were and what great love he has for them all. Love will win out. Correction is the best thing God can give any of his children.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Amen to that, Marlene!!
Kathy :)
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All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.
It's all about the benjamins. There are millions of Hell-believing Christians that wouldn't hesitate to buy your books and CDs and pay to listen to you talk about how you [supposedly] went to Hell. There are millions more that would simply be intrigued enough to hear your testimony that they too would buy your books and CDs.
But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...
Daywalker 8)
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a lot of children when they are very small learn that if they don't do this or that, or if they do this or that the Boogie Man will get them, as they get older its not the Boogie Man but the Devil that will get them, if we are taught something long enough we will believe it,Only God can deliver us from such teaching.
Terry
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But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...
Amen to that...
Not to mention that the hell believers will be all over that guy! :o
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But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...
Amen to that...
Not to mention that the hell believers will be all over that guy! :o
Yeppers! Ironically, they'd crucify him [or her] just as quickly as the Jews crucified their God, Jesus.
TheRysta,
You need to slow down and take a few breaths, my friend. You are eager for answers, and that is very good. These desires of yours to understand all the Truths of God are, in fact, from God Himself. And He will give you your answers in HIS time. For now, your focus should be on living the Godly life. Put what you've already learned into action. Then as you walk with Christ, He will reveal more and more to you... a precept here... a precept there... here a little... there a little.
"And since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?"[/b]
Nobody has the "Holy Spirit" unless God put it inside them. Clearly, the world HAS NOT the Holy Spirit, as they "can't seem to come to any logical consensus". The world is lost; if you're looking for answers OUT THERE, then you will continue to be lost,
..."for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you."--Luke 17:21.
And that is, of course, IF God put it there.
"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good Pleasure--Phil 2:13
It seems as though you're expecting one day for everything to just *click*.. and then *boom* suddenly you have all the Wisdom of the Almighty. [don't we all ???] Well, it doesn't happen like that.
Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.
13 Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
We ALL must be BROKEN before God can REPAIR us, and reveal to us all His Sacred Secrets.
Psalms 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous; but the LORD delivers him out of them all.
In God's Time, my friend,
Daywalker. 8)
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Thank you all for your input. ;D
As I gather from Marlene's posts the Holy Spirit works on people in different ways, as we all have different egos and different things about us which need correcting. It's odd because you act as if whenever a sin is revealed to you you feel ashamed. I am fully aware that I am a sinner, but I don't feel ashamed, nor do I feel proud. I am by nature quite a shameless person so I find it hard to comprehend what it is to other people... but if you're okay with it and you feel it leads to improvement then I have no quarrel. It's even made me think. Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.
@ Daywalker: Human lust for horror sickens me, but where are these testimonies? Even if I had just ONE it would make the difference.
It's funny. I have never had any experience of the Spirit. Or at least no obvious experience. I have ASD which gives me a very hightened sense of self and ego, so it's no wonder. However, I would never ever deny it. That's not out of fear, it's out of the evidence I see. It's like a knowledge of something I just haven't experienced. We can't prove God or Jesus but I would never lose faith in the Spirit. If only it knew me.
- Ryan
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Hi Ryan,
You seem to want a vision/sign, but what did Jesus say about those seeking a sign...
Luke 11:29 When the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.
Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.
So you think that God gets desperate? When you consider that God is sovereign and that He is in control of everything, why would He be desperate to change people? There is a reason why people believe in something that is not real (hell), the explanation is in Scripture.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
v. 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This age is blinded to the truth (except for a very few) and it is intended to be that way.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
When God is ready, He can remove this blindness in an instant, remember Saul/Paul.
Act 9:3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
v.4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
v. 5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
v. 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?"
After this Paul served the Lord for the rest of His life.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Great Scriptures you have given Kat.
Rysta, I believe that feeling ashamed of my actions is how God led me to repentance. Showing, me exactly what I am does not set well with me. Taking a look at that Beast is not a pretty site. But, I know it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance so we cannot even take credit for that. I know, God has everything in control. I have to learn to hate the things of the world. If, I continue to love them what good is any of this for me. But, I will learn and have victory as God leads.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Hello again Rysta,
To add to what Kat posted... you do appear to want some sort of visible or physical evidence to prove God's existence to you. But the problem is, suppose He did manifest Himself in an obvious way, and erased all your doubts... what would happen to your "faith"? Well, you wouldn't need "faith" anymore, because you'd have your "proof". And once you prove something, it becomes a "fact" of which requires zero "faith" to believe.
But God wants us to have faith. And He wants our "faith" to grow and mature. If He wanted to prove to the world He exists, He'd simply do so... which one day, He will. But until then,
"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." - John 20:29
Daywalker. 8)
Thank you all for your input. ;D
As I gather from Marlene's posts the Holy Spirit works on people in different ways, as we all have different egos and different things about us which need correcting. It's odd because you act as if whenever a sin is revealed to you you feel ashamed. I am fully aware that I am a sinner, but I don't feel ashamed, nor do I feel proud. I am by nature quite a shameless person so I find it hard to comprehend what it is to other people... but if you're okay with it and you feel it leads to improvement then I have no quarrel. It's even made me think. Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.
@ Daywalker: Human lust for horror sickens me, but where are these testimonies? Even if I had just ONE it would make the difference.
It's funny. I have never had any experience of the Spirit. Or at least no obvious experience. I have ASD which gives me a very hightened sense of self and ego, so it's no wonder. However, I would never ever deny it. That's not out of fear, it's out of the evidence I see. It's like a knowledge of something I just haven't experienced. We can't prove God or Jesus but I would never lose faith in the Spirit. If only it knew me.
- Ryan
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Hi all.
God will not prove to the world that He exists. Instead the world will come into the knowledge of the truth.
Proof suggests there is doubt, but of course we know....There is no doubt.
As for the original question from Rysta. Probably not.
Because the people who make the testimonies are either decieved or liars in the first place.
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Hi all.
God will not prove to the world that He exists. Instead the world will come into the knowledge of the truth.
Proof suggests there is doubt, but of course we know....There is no doubt.
As for the original question from Rysta. Probably not.
Because the people who make the testimonies are either decieved or liars in the first place.
Correction: Faith suggests there is doubt... [faith is believing in something WITHOUT Proof...]. Proof means there's no doubt, because with Proof it becomes FACT.
God Bless,
Daywalker. 8)
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True. Sorry, but I meant to ask for proof suggests that you have doubt...Therefore asking for proof of something i.e. having to physically see it means that you don't believe or believe to lesser degree (if that is even possible).
Where as if you have Faith then you have no doubt, therefore not having to ask for proof in the first place...Because you already have proof...seeing it (the proof) in other means. Namely, Spiritually.
What I meant by this is that God is already proving to us His doings.... and we all know that God does not change...therefore God isn't going to just "appear" to non-believers. He is going to do it the way He as always done it because that is the only way.
Thanks, it was a mistake what posted previously... :)
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True. Sorry, but I meant to ask for proof suggests that you have doubt...Therefore asking for proof of something i.e. having to physically see it means that you don't believe or believe to lesser degree (if that is even possible).
Where as if you have Faith then you have no doubt, therefore not having to ask for proof in the first place...Because you already have proof...seeing it (the proof) in other means. Namely, Spiritually.
What I meant by this is that God is already proving to us His doings.... and we all know that God does not change...therefore God isn't going to just "appear" to non-believers. He is going to do it the way He as always done it because that is the only way.
Thanks, it was a mistake what posted previously... :)
;) :)
True, true. I imagine God will "reveal" Himself to the World in a similar way as He did us. Though, it will be in a much more obvious and glorious way.
I do believe, however, that Jesus Christ will physically appear at His Return, for ALL TO SEE. [But, I don't believe He will be "wearing" His 2,000 year old body, with holes in His hands and feet...]
Btw, saying that God doesn't change, doesn't mean that God doesn't make "changes" to the way He operates His Creation. Not that He changes His "mind" as that would imply a "mistake" on His part. But that, at His timing, and in accord with His Plan and His Will, He will update the Rulebook, so to speak. [sorry, words of a sports fan here...]
A few Scriptural examples:
Nation of Israel. They were His chosen people, but no longer as they have been cast out, in order that the Gentiles may find Salvation. Later the Jews will be grafted back in. [Romans 11]
Also, the Priesthood of Levi is no longer, as Jesus Christ is our High Priest. [Hebrews 7]
There is no more Temple, as we are God's temple. [I Corinthians 3:16-17]
etc, etc.
These are all "changes" God has made throughout the eons, all in accord with His Purpose. But God Himself never "changes"--meaning His being, His Character, Who He Is. He never changes, as His Son, Jesus, never changes.
PS: If you already knew and understood all this, then I apologize. But I felt the 'need' to share this information with you. I used to struggle with what "God does not change" means...
If you're interested, and haven't already, Ray does a few good studies in relation to this subject:
May2008 Bible Study Can a Sovereign God Change?
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 2.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 5_03_08 Pt 3.mp3
Also, this one was very enlightening:
November 2008 Bible Study Time and Eternity
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 11-30-08 Pt. 2.mp3
May God Guide You,
Daywalker. 8)
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Ah, I didn't see this coming.
It's not proof of God's existence I want. To me the very fact that I am a senient being is proof enough. It's testimonies about this fabled hell. I only seem to have seen testimonies OF it, but if there were also testimonies AGAINST it, then it would prove the unreliability of relying on these 'visions'. Otherwise, it becomes strange that we only have testimonies of hell, that it might be real. Even if I just had ONE counter vision that would be enough.
Heck... the visions don't even have to be divinely inspired at all! They can be fake mind-trips for all I care, just so long as it can be proven that the mind can generate BOTH experiences and not just ONE.
Ta
- Ryan
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Okay Ryan, are you looking for the near death and/or out of body experiences and visions where people claim to have seen "a bright light"? There are plenty of those counter visions or testimonies out there in which the person describes a pleasant, even heavenly light beckoned them when they were dead (or maybe even thought they were)....but then they woke up, or were resuscitated, etc.
I guess I just don't understand what is your point in pursuing this topic. We're not supposed to be looking for signs and wonders, right? You either believe the truth that there is no hell, or you doubt and keep looking for other people to tell you of their "vision" of an alternative.
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Vangie is right Ryan. Must I have or hear of a vision that there is no Santa or Easter bunny to know that they are not real?
Truth requires no visions!
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okie dokie ryan. here ya go. i just had a vision while sitting here that there is NO HELL that will burn all the "bad people" forever in its' fire. i saw all those "bad people" in a line waiting their turn to stand before their Righteous Judge. they were really, really scared because they were remembering all the lost opportunities they had to believe in the Truths they had heard while living their earthly lives. they were sore afraid because they had believed all their lives that there was a hellfire and oh how they wished they could go back now and do it all over again. and then, one by one, as they each stood before the Judge their eyes were opened to what they had been blind to see before. one by one they knelt down and proclaimed that He was Lord, Jesus Christ the Saviour. and they said to their Lord, You mean there REALLY wasn't a literal hell? this judgment i just experienced was the hell? well that is just awesome my Brother. there is your vision ryan. physically typed down for your eyes to see, but spiritually inspired. a fake mind-trip if you want to say that, but nonetheless, inspired by our Creators' Spirit.
now my dear baby brother in Christ, let it go. you have your vision.
claudia
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Linny.Um, ah, you are kidding about the bunny and Santa!!! Aren't you??? :o :D ::)
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Rysta, I don't know about you. But, the Spirit in me is judging me and showing me I am a Beast.... There are so many days I can barely stand myself.
I feel the same way, Marlene. No, NOT about You :D. About me!
How's this for a testimony? God is big, I am little. He is good, I am bad. God is smart, I am stupid. God is perfect, I am imperfect. God us trustworthy, I am untrustworthy. God tells the truth, I tell lies. God is God, I am NOT. In fact, I've broken every one of the 10 commandments.
Beyond statements like Marlene's and mine, put no stake in what we or anybody else testifies. In fact, I'm an imperfect, stupid, bad, untrustworthy, lying little man. You shouldn't look to us or anybody else's testimony for faith. Look to God alone, and let others do the same.
Steve
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Hi....
To be accepted with out ????
Is more importaint than any thing . even though our creator made this earth for us . to enjoy . with the blessing that goes with all that comes with being human . ((other wise we would not be here now ))
Do we need proof of what we have . or are we that blind that we reject the one who allowed for us to be born . (( I dont mean out side of what the Lord allowed for .)) Just a thought ..
...noeleena...
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Ah, I didn't see this coming.
It's not proof of God's existence I want. To me the very fact that I am a senient being is proof enough. It's testimonies about this fabled hell. I only seem to have seen testimonies OF it, but if there were also testimonies AGAINST it, then it would prove the unreliability of relying on these 'visions'. Otherwise, it becomes strange that we only have testimonies of hell, that it might be real. Even if I just had ONE counter vision that would be enough.
Heck... the visions don't even have to be divinely inspired at all! They can be fake mind-trips for all I care, just so long as it can be proven that the mind can generate BOTH experiences and not just ONE.
Ta
- Ryan
Ryan,how about this for a so called counter vision of which you speak. Not from some type of quack or s-e-l-f reliance, but from the apostle Paul,a called and chosen and faithful servant of God. When the Father begins His works in you then and only then will the Truths of the Spirit wash over you, not unlike a wave of Righteousness and Truth.
Rely on Gods Word,always,not on the world...
2 Corinthians 12
New International Version
Paul’s Vision and His Thorn
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.
7To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Peace...Mark
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Rysta, Jesus said, "if you love me my father in heaven will love you and I will manifest myself to you" After 33 years of blind faith (given by God), He did just that. Can I count that as salvation? Oh dear God no! Now, 33 years later and still learning I tremble at the depths of sin I have in me. This is not a catwalk, this is unbelievably serious business, even though I do not worry about hell, per se, it grieves me to think of my offenses against God.. you do not know anything yet. Listen to everyone here and learn and be satisfied as to what you have at this point. Do not be superficial nor too curious about things, do seek but humbly tred this path, it is not for the faint of heart. People do not call christians "soldiers" for nothing. Question yourself concerning your curiosity. Judy