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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mrsnacks on July 09, 2007, 02:13:35 PM
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I know it is has been quoted that those who endure to the end will be saved. So does this apply to the elect or?
I mean all will be eventually saved. Every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.
But if this verse applies to the elect then do we have to wait till we are on our death bed to see and even on our death bed can we really be sure ?
I look at myself as a work in process. At the rate I am going it seems that I would need quite a few hundred lifetimes to be pruned and molded and shaped in His image. I still see many areas that need work. And many has stated that judgment is what the elect are going through now. So as to make the first resurrection and not having to go through the lake of fire. But does that mean we are to be a finished product before we die ? I wouldn't think so because there is always some flesh to be burned in us. I would appreciate more light on
this . Thanks.
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THIS IS ANOTHER repeated thread.
Do your self a favor and go search, look up the previous one. you will be rewarded with all the responces on the previous one.
Rodger
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THIS IS ANOTHER repeated thread.
Do your self a favor and go search, look up the previous one. you will be rewarded with all the responces on the previous one.
Rodger
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I did do that. I didn't get anything on that except for an email response from Ray answering a question regarding the called and chosen. He said that the chosen the elect were the called which confused me.
But he did state no one knows if one is chosen or not.
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i believe MR dean peterman is going through this topic as we post......among a few others.
Rodger
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Hi Mrsnacks, I will offer my brief take on this for whatever it's worth.
I feel like I'm a chosen, but I won't know for sure until I am resurrected. Even though I will not be perfect at the time of my death, Christ in me will make up for my shortcomings:
Jude 24 Now unto him that is ABLE to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Have a great week! Janice
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Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win. All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches. I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
This great man of God, Paul, seems pretty aware that there is always a chance for "disqualification", so we all need to stay humble and be continually spiritually striving for that great reward offered to the Elect. We can be confident but not boastful. We can be hopeful but not complacent. This is not an easy race to run...having to always stay on your spiritual toes... ;) :D
Peace,
Diana
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Mrsnacks
Paul wrote his final letter to Timothy wherein he wrote 2 Tim 4 : 6. For I am already about to be sacrificed, my life is about to be poured out as a drink offering: the time of my spirit's release from the body is at hand and I will soon go free. 7. I HAVE FOUGHT THE GOOD FIGHT, I HAVE FINISHED MY COURSE, I HAVE DEPT THE FAITH.
He was ELECT! Why? Because although the Spirit of Christ warned him what awaited Paul should he go to Rome....HE WENT THERE ANYWAY...He did not avoid his death...he went into the embrace of death by execution! He was faithful unto death and I believe Paul defined what elect is....FAITHFUL TO DEATH.
If any of us can say we are that faithful and then die instead of avoiding a death sentence...then sure...you are elect and know it....Paul put his money where his mouth was and the Scriptures endorse his claim! He left the brethren to go and be executed. They knew it. Just as Christ declared to his Disciples that He was about to be executed...Paul too declared to his brethren that he too would be leaving them.
TO DEATH... that is the finale....We do not know what Paul suffered but we did not hear of him again after that final letter to Timothy.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi All,
These types of discussions always worry me. Diana, I like your inclusion of Pauls words.
1Cr 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
Paul does not say: "Run in such a way SO you win"; rather, he uses the words "as to" which means (to me) that the receiving or not the prize is irrelevant, for it is the 'running' of the race that counts.
Will any here feel justified for having been chosen? Will any look upon a fellow brother or sister in this forum who was selected but not chosen and say: "I knew it, I just knew it...."
I have a huge problem with this and the moment I even feel a little like I am more than I am, I know without question that I have returned to my carnal nature and I go straight back to GO....
Mat 20:1 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard.
Mat 20:2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.
Mat 20:3 “About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing.
Mat 20:4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’
Mat 20:5 So they went.
“He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing.
Mat 20:6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’
Mat 20:7 ” ‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.
“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’
Mat 20:8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’
Mat 20:9 “The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius.
Mat 20:10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
Mat 20:11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.
Mat 20:12 ‘ These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
Mat 20:13 “But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?
Mat 20:14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you.
Mat 20:15 Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
Mat 20:16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
This last verse is the clincher for me, 'So the last will be first, and the first will be last.' Seems to me, that it is those who have no inkling of being chosen that will be. I myself have no idea what God has in store for me, and I love it. All I have to do is follow His lead and listen with my heart as His Spirt speaks. I believe for myself that if I focus for a second on the prize, I have failed in running as to win it.
Running must mean baring the fruits of the Spirit in al that we do, say and feel.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness and self‑control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Well this is the way I see it, no offense to anyone intended.
What will be, will be of God and not me. God's plans will not change.
Love to all in Christ,
Darren
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Darren
You quote : Mat 20:16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”
As I understand this scripture it is referring to the first to receive the covenant of God being the OT Israel and the last to receive the new Covenant.
We know that no one in the OT will be in the first Ressurection. Those who are raised in the order of the Resurrection to life in Christ lived AFTER those who will enter into their salvation last. Those in the New Covenant are the called who live after the death of Christ and not the first chosen who lived before! God does have an order.
This might make sense to someone!... :D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Thanks, you raise good points Darren, which humble me. I certaintly don't feel I like know I am 'a chosen' all the time. This then would be one of those moments I do not. ;D
"Seems to me, that it is those who have no inkling of being chosen that will be."
I will now go and contemplate how I can somehow, when I do feel it, un-feel this "sacred secret" [from Joe's thread] that is given to me. ;D
Really, I understand what you are saying. I, however, am preparing to serve Him in the best ways I am able, if He should indeed choose me. And I pray for Him to "pick me, pick me!" I humbly want to help Him.
Phil 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
:) Thanks again for good insights. With joy, Janice
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Some great input here. Thanks so much.
I don't know about the running the race as to win the prize. And one of you mentioned that only "one" gets the prize. Sort of like an Olympic marathon. So many great runners in one race from all over the world. I don't know about you but that is pretty intimidating. There is only one gold medal. And the thing about the Olympics these days is that if one runs second or third - he/she is considered a loser. It didn't used to be that way. To be selected to go to the Olympics is an honor and a great thing. But in todays society it means nothing unless you win. But running the race I have no problem with if that is what it is about.
One mentioned that Paul went and faced his death so he was one of the elect. How many of us here have the courage to do that. It is one thing to say it but another thing all together in reality. I will tell you I don't think I can stomach being tortured. I have a problem with being held down and tickled.
Speaking out and taking a stand for truth in this country is hard for some of us and our lives aren't even on the line.
So is it such a bad thing if we don't make it in the first resurrection ?
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Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win. All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches. I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
This great man of God, Paul, seems pretty aware that there is always a chance for "disqualification", so we all need to stay humble and be continually spiritually striving for that great reward offered to the Elect. We can be confident but not boastful. We can be hopeful but not complacent. This is not an easy race to run...having to always stay on your spiritual toes... ;) :D
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THANKS for your thoughts. You say be confident - but how can one be ? I understand hopeful and not complacent.
I recall seeing an Olympic race with Mary Decker I believe was in the stretch turning for home
and it looked like she was turning it on to win the race. I am sure she was confident at that moment. Then all of a sudden her leg got rapped up in another runner beside her and she fell and finished last in tears.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
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I've thought about this a lot and realized that there was a lot of carnal in me that wanted to save itself. I think the spiritual would say Thy will be done and God's plan is perfect no matter what happens. I don't know if I'm chosen or will remain faithful and endure to the end. If it's God's plan I will. If it's not God's plan I won't. I cannot alter his purpose and plan for my life.
Mark 10
35Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. "Teacher," they said, "we want you to do for us whatever we ask."
36"What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
37They replied, "Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory."
38"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said. "Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?"
39"We can," they answered. Jesus said to them, "You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with, 40but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared."
41When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Hebrews 12:1
[ God Disciplines His Sons ] Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
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HEre is how paul and the other apostles died;
I. St. StephenSt. Stephen suffered the next in order. His death was occasioned by the faithful manner in which he preached the Gospel to the betrayers and murderers of Christ. To such a degree of madness were they excited, that they cast him out of the city and stoned him to death. The time when he suffered is generally supposed to have been at the passover which succeeded to that of our Lord's crucifixion, and to the era of his ascension, in the following spring.
Upon this a great persecution was raised against all who professed their belief in Christ as the Messiah, or as a prophet. We are immediately told by St. Luke, that "there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;" and that "they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."
About two thousand Christians, with Nicanor, one of the seven deacons, suffered martyrdom during the "persecution that arose about Stephen."
II. James the Great
The next martyr we meet with, according to St. Luke, in the History of the Apsotles' Acts, was James the son of Zebedee, the elder brother of John, and a relative of our Lord; for his mother Salome was cousin-german to the Virgin Mary. It was not until ten years after the death of Stephen that the second martyrdom took place; for no sooner had Herod Agrippa been appointed governor of Judea, than, with a view to ingratiate himself with them, he raised a sharp persecution against the Christians, and determined to make an effectual blow, by striking at their leaders. The account given us by an eminent primitive writer, Clemens Alexandrinus, ought not to be overlooked; that, as James was led to the place of martyrdom, his accuser was brought to repent of his conduct by the apostle's extraordinary courage and undauntedness, and fell down at his feet to request his pardon, professing himself a Christian, and resolving that James should not receive the crown of martyrdom alone. Hence they were both beheaded at the same time. Thus did the first apostolic martyr cheerfully and resolutely receive that cup, which he had told our Savior he was ready to drink. Timon and Parmenas suffered martyrdom about the same time; the one at Philippi, and the other in Macedonia. These events took place A.D. 44.
III. Philip
Was born at Bethsaida, in Galilee and was first called by the name of "disciple." He labored diligently in Upper Asia, and suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified, A.D. 54.
IV. Matthew
Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.
V. James the Less
Is supposed by some to have been the brother of our Lord, by a former wife of Joseph. This is very doubtful, and accords too much with the Catholic superstition, that Mary never had any other children except our Savior. He was elected to the oversight of the churches of Jerusalem; and was the author of the Epistle ascribed to James in the sacred canon. At the age of ninety-four he was beat and stoned by the Jews; and finally had his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.
VI. Matthias
Of whom less is known than of most of the other disciples, was elected to fill the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.
VII. Andrew
Was the brother of Peter. He preached the gospel to many Asiatic nations; but on his arrival at Edessa he was taken and crucified on a cross, the two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground. Hence the derivation of the term, St. Andrew's Cross.
VIII. St. Mark
Was born of Jewish parents of the tribe of Levi. He is supposed to have been converted to Christianity by Peter, whom he served as an amanuensis, and under whose inspection he wrote his Gospel in the Greek language. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria, at the great solemnity of Serapis their idol, ending his life under their merciless hands.
IX. Peter
Among many other saints, the blessed apostle Peter was condemned to death, and crucified, as some do write, at Rome; albeit some others, and not without cause, do doubt thereof. Hegesippus saith that Nero sought matter against Peter to put him to death; which, when the people perceived, they entreated Peter with much ado that he would fly the city. Peter, through their importunity at length persuaded, prepared himself to avoid. But, coming to the gate, he saw the Lord Christ come to meet him, to whom he, worshipping, said, "Lord, whither dost Thou go?" To whom He answered and said, "I am come again to be crucified." By this, Peter, perceiving his suffering to be understood, returned into the city. Jerome saith that he was crucified, his head being down and his feet upward, himself so requiring, because he was (he said) unworthy to be crucified after the same form and manner as the Lord was.
X. Paul
Paul, the apostle, who before was called Saul, after his great travail and unspeakable labors in promoting the Gospel of Christ, suffered also in this first persecution under Nero. Abdias, declareth that under his execution Nero sent two of his esquires, Ferega and Parthemius, to bring him word of his death. They, coming to Paul instructing the people, desired him to pray for them, that they might believe; who told them that shortly after they should believe and be baptised at His sepulcher. This done, the soldiers came and led him out of the city to the place of execution, where he, after his prayers made, gave his neck to the sword.
XI. Jude
The brother of James, was commonly called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa, A.D. 72.
XII. Bartholomew
Preached in several countries, and having translated the Gospel of Matthew into the language of India, he propagated it in that country. He was at length cruelly beaten and then crucified by the impatient idolaters.
XIII. Thomas
Called Didymus, preached the Gospel in Parthia and India, where exciting the rage of the pagan priests, he was martyred by being thrust through with a spear.
XIV. Luke
The evangelist, was the author of the Gospel which goes under his name. He travelled with Paul through various countries, and is supposed to have been hanged on an olive tree, by the idolatrous priests of Greece.
XV. Simon
Surnamed Zelotes, preached the Gospel in Mauritania, Africa, and even in Britain, in which latter country he was crucified, A.D. 74.
XVI. John
The "beloved disciple," was brother to James the Great. The churches of Smyrna, Pergamos, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, and Thyatira, were founded by him. From Ephesus he was ordered to be sent to Rome, where it is affirmed he was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil. He escaped by miracle, without injury. Domitian afterwards banished him to the Isle of Patmos, where he wrote the Book of Revelation. Nerva, the successor of Domitian, recalled him. He was the only apostle who escaped a violent death.
XVII. Barnabas
Was of Cyprus, but of Jewish descent, his death is supposed to have taken place about A.D. 73.
And yet, notwithstanding all these continual persecutions and horrible punishments, the Church daily increased, deeply rooted in the doctrine of the apostles and of men apostolical, and watered plentously with the blood of saints.
Foxes Book of martrys
Src= http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox101.htm (http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox101.htm)
Love,
Alex
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Remember that in a race everyone runs, but only one person gets the prize. You also must run in such a way that you will win. All athletes practice strict self-control. They do it to win a prize that will fade away, but we do it for an eternal prize. So I run straight to the goal with purpose in every step. I am not like a boxer who misses his punches. I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
This great man of God, Paul, seems pretty aware that there is always a chance for "disqualification", so we all need to stay humble and be continually spiritually striving for that great reward offered to the Elect. We can be confident but not boastful. We can be hopeful but not complacent. This is not an easy race to run...having to always stay on your spiritual toes... ;) :D
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THANKS for your thoughts. You say be confident - but how can one be ? I understand hopeful and not complacent.
I recall seeing an Olympic race with Mary Decker I believe was in the stretch turning for home
and it looked like she was turning it on to win the race. I am sure she was confident at that moment. Then all of a sudden her leg got rapped up in another runner beside her and she fell and finished last in tears.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
Hi mrsnacks, I think I see what you are saying. Being confident doesn't necessarily assure us of a "win", but being confident eliminates being worrisome and fretful about whatever may happen to us. Our confidence should not be in ourselves but in Christ, who will be faithful to perform His work in us, whatever that may be.
For Thou art my hope; O Lord GOD, Thou art my confidence from my youth.
Psalms 71:5
For the LORD will be your confidence, And will keep your foot from being caught.
Proverbs 3:26
In the fear of the LORD one has strong confidence, and his children will have a refuge.
Proverbs 14:26
Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were marveling, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus.
Acts 4:13
For our proud confidence is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world
2 Corinthians 1:12
And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
2 Corinthians 3:4-5
Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
Hebrews 3:5-6
Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:16
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Hebrews 10:35
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
1 John 2:28
And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this, love is perfected with us, that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
1 John 4:16-17
Peace,
Diana
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Hi Diana,
I really like the way you explained the word confident. For this is how I see it to, I cannot be confident in my ability to win the race, for if it were up to me, I would never even qualify. But yes, I am very confident in God to lead me and guide me in all that I must do so as to win the prize. There is no single winner. Perhpas it is more like a life long marathon, along a steep narrow, twisty road full of rocks and pot holes and all things nasty; with breathtaking view. Where all that are still on this road at the end are winners/
I think this fits with what Christ was saying in Mat 20:1-16 (I posted it below)
Some of the chosen will have spen ttheir entire life dealing with all kinds of hardships, while others may endure very litte. It is all dependent on when they are called by God. Some might be called very early in their life while others a called in tehir twighlight years. The calling is the same, the road changes not and all should be confident that God has placed them exactrly where they need for a reason.
I am rambling, sorry.
Great post,
Love in Christ,
Darren
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hi all....good thread and posts.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
i beleive here is another word which has become a stumbling block. are we growing in mercy? meekness, are we longsuffering? are we growing in love and forgivness giving up anger and resentment of past wrongs?
then we are in good shape and if we add these 7 things to our fath we are becoming the 8 day man, a new creation:
2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness LOVE.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
in love
chuckt
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Thanks for all the input. I understand confidence now. It is not that I am confident in my abilities. It is not about me but all about Christ. Confidence in Him and His Word. His Word that He will never leave us nor forsake us. Confidence in Him as the Potter and He will succeed in acomplishing His will in us. It depends upon Him and not us. We just submit.
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And I agree completely Diana and Snacks. I could not be confident in myself; that is a given, or that is to say an understood or implied concept.
And when I (or others) wonder if I'm being carnal or full of zeal for serving my Lord and being servant of all, the only answer is 'God knows.'
The thing that has struck me most about Ray's teachings is not so much all the deceptions being taught out there but what true Christianty really is, being a follower of Christ and all His commands (not just some) and being chastened in this life by Him and going through persecution on His behalf (granted our lives are not at stake much in this country but our quality of life is in this regard) and going through judgment now and the fiery trials that refine us and going through our sufferings and laying them at the foot of His cross because He suffered for us. Not many want to hear all this; they want to hear of the "smooooth things."
Those that do make the 1st rez -- the elect -- will have their suffering already out of the way. So that's a comfort I guess(?) :)
Phil 1: 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Have a good day! Janice
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Hello MrSnacks, me again. Still scratchin' my head and wonderin' about this topic of "am I an 'elect' and in the first resurrection" or not. If I may, I would like to carry on with this thread for another note. It will help edify things for myself as I hope they will for you and perhaps others. [It doesn't matter to me whether there are two or three concurrent similar threads on this matter; this is the one in which I will hopefully be learning more.] ;)
I indeed would like to learn spiritual matters the correct way, so please shoot whatever I now present full of holes for my eventual benefit and thanks in advance for that.
It is interesting to me that I have developed my concept of possibly being an 'elect' and in the first resurrection from Ray's teachings. Quite actually, I was somewhat surprised that no one else of Ray's readers chimed in with support on this thought. I do not wish to appear a heretic nor self-righteous or prideful nor lacking in humility. I hope this final post will secure that.
I've gone back over some of Ray's material and wish to unfurl a few quotes of his with comments of mine afterwards. These will I hope show why I have objectively come to feel I am an elect on a good day (with nothing to do with it of myself.) :) Believe me, throughout the day and especially during my bedtime prayers, I shake my head and wonder "Father and Lord, what are you going to do with me?" [A no goodnik at times. :'(] But I truly believe "all things are possible with Him."
Quotes from Ray that may help answer ‘am I an elect/will I make the first resurrection?’
“Whether God “JUDGES” us (and later the wicked world), or “GRACES” us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!” [Emphasis his, P. 18 of LOF Part 3 – Judgment Must Begin at the House of God.] My comment: I honestly don’t believe I am among ‘the wicked’ of this world.
“The reason we are not “condemned” with the world is because we accept God’s judgment in our lives. Rom 8: 1: There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” [Emphasis his, P. 26 LOF Part 3] I have volunteered to receive the judgments of God by fire now and for the rest of my life. I may not “endure until the end,” and I may be “disqualified,” [according to the Scriptures] but that will depend on God’s will and not what I do henceforth.
“The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for “that day.” [He references 1Cor 11: 32] [P. 17 of LOF Part 3] This is what has been given me to do by God and is in fact what I am doing.
“… BUT, if any are “without chastisement” then they are “********, and NOT sons.” [Ref: Heb 12: 8] ….. ******** are born ******** and did not create themselves or choose to be ********…!!!” [Emphasis his, P. 4 of LOF Part 5 A Scriptural Explanation of the LOF] I believe I was not born a ‘*******’ but a member of the household of God by His will and mercy. Furthermore, I believe I have been given the “earnest of His spirit" according to Scripture as follows:
2Cor 1: 22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Back to quotes from Ray:
“Ever consider how the thief on the cross was saved? It doesn’t say whether he was a Jew and circumcised or Gentile and baptized – all it says is that he was a sinner and he acknowledged it, (remember that it was for just such sinners that Jesus was commissioned by God to come into the world in the first place.) Did the thief on the cross believe on the name of Jesus Christ? Did he acknowledge Christ as his Lord and Master? Did he believe that God would raise Him from the dead? Yes, he did. [Ref: Luke 23: 40-43] The thief believed that Jesus was the Christ and the Savior (‘this Man has done nothing amiss.’) He acknowledged Him as his Lord and Master (calling Him Lord.) He knew that in order for Jesus to “come into” His kingdom, God would have to resurrect Him from the dead, for soon they would all be dead. Simple, isn’t it?” [P. 14-15 LOF Part 5] Stated humbly and without self-pride, I believe it has been given to me to be more spiritually mature in Christ than the thief on the cross whom Christ said would be in His kingdom. (I think this implies the first resurrection, I could be wrong. If I am wrong, that is, he'll be in the second resurrection, please disregard this paragraph.)
“These two sets of Scriptures [Ray lists several] will explain each other. Remember that we learned there are two groups of people to be judged: (1) The whole world in the day of judging (Acts 17: 31), and (2) The house of God NOW (1Pet 4: 17 & Icor 11: 32.) Since God is no respecter of persons, He judges both groups by the same means.” Again, I believe I am in the house of God now and will therefore as an elect make the first resurrection.
“And so judgment is upon the building of God’s house as each individual believer is framed and fitted for the calling that God has for each individual. This judgment began in the days of the Apostles after the resurrection of our Lord. It continued generation after generation down through the age until today when it yet continues. And it will continue still further until the entire harvest of firstfruits is completed. Remember we already learned that if we would judge ourselves now, Paul said we would not be condemned with the world later.” (1Cor 11: 32) [Underline mine] [P.5 LOF Part 5] Again, I have volunteered for judgment now and for the rest of my life.
There are other subjective reasons why I feel the 'sacred secret' knowledge and confidence to (perhaps) become an 'elect.' They are very personal, so I won't elaborate, but my stature as a general human has become very very low in many aspects over the past ten years. I truly am one of God's little nothings. BUT I AM JOYFUL AND I HAVE PEACE IN HIM AND HIS PLAN! And it is given to me to truly love and cherish the truths Ray teaches!
All I know MrSnacks is ...... I wasn't looking for Him a year and a half ago....... He was looking for me [after decades of pursuing me off and on!] ..... and He already has done something pretty amazing with me.
Thank you very much for this "redundant/duplicate" thread. ;) Janice
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Hi everyone,
I'm also thinking that the elect know or at least have an inkling that they are the elect. Why would they not if God reveals it to them?
Chuckt already quoted this scripture:
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercy, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering
Paul here is addressing the elect. How does he know they are the elect?
1 Pet 1:1,2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Grace unto you and peace be multiplied.
Why does Peter address them as the elect? He seems to know this.
Rom 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people, that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
These scriptures seem quite definitely to be addressed to the elect. 1 Peter especially seems to be directed at God's elect. Someone out there at the time of the writing of these scriptures must have known they were chosen. I don't think it would have been just a hope or wish.
I will have to do more thinking and studying on this matter.
Janice, you have some really good quotes from Ray.
Love,
Ursula
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How many elect are there in every generation???? I am assuming that you don't have to believe like we do. Right??
There were only 8 on the arc out of thousands. Thats not many.
I am just absolutely thrilled that everyone gets saved!!!
I just watched The Bridge to Terebithia. 2 Children talking about hell. It was a good movie but that makes me sad that children believe some little thing will send them to hell. Anyway, the main girl, Leslie, says "No, I don't believe God could condemn people to hell."
Sorry, for straying off topic. :-*
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I think the key here is that we have to be not walking after the flesh daily. In another word, we are to be dieing to the flesh every day. Which won’t end until the day we die. A process of enduring to the end and then being saved. Then I think we would be considered Called, Chosen and Faithful(Elect) to the end.
To me while in the flesh now,
Knowing verses Being an Elect are two different things.
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Hi Gena,
As for knowing what God's plans are for me, only He can know.
I seen a portion of the following Scripture at the bottom of your post. It's PERFECT!!! :)
Phl 4:6 - - Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God
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Dear Janice and Ursula,
I sure appreciate your honesty on this subject. :)
Gena,
The Bridge to Terebithia was a pretty cool movie. :D
Peace to you ~ Lisa
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To me while in the flesh now,
Knowing verses Being an Elect are two different things.
I agree completely and it makes me a bit fearful for...
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
It's like the worst case scenario would be to know the truth, go through much suffering and chastisement in this life, but not endure to the end and still have to go through judgment again later, where it will be even worse for those who know the real deal (MANY stripes)!!! Most days it feels like I'm failing miserably at running this race. :(
Ray discusses the difference between the saints and the elect in LOF part XIII. I found it to be very helpful in my understanding of where I might be in the realm of things.
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
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Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth. And yet… and YET, of the wild beast that comes out of the sea in Revelation 13, we are told:
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle and them that [spiritually] dwell in heaven. And it was given unto Him [the wild beast] to make war with the saints, and TO OVERCOME THEM: and power was given him over ALL KINDREDS, AND TONGUES, AND NATIONS" (Verses 6-7).
...
Did Jesus ever warn us of this wild beast? Did the apostles? Did Paul to the nations, warn of this evil power? How could the saints themselves, be deceived by this wild beast? I thought that the very elect of God CANNOT be deceived:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:24).
Ah, but it is NOT POSSIBLE to deceive the very elect! Will someone tell me what’s going on here with this wild beast?
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?
If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).
So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
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So, it's my understanding that saints are those with "eyes to see and ears to hear" but are not yet spiritually mature nor part of the elect so they can still be deceived.
Love and peace,
Carol
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The way I have come to see the elect, is they are individuals that God has determined from the beginning would be His special people down through the generations since Christ.
Eph 1:4 according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
So He knows in each generation who His elect are. But they are in the world at first, deceived, living by the lusts of the flesh.
Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
1Pe 2:25 For you were as sheep going astray, but now you are turned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
These elect are being given experiences all their lives, so they can learn good and evil. Christ is with them, but not in them, but at the appointed time Christ sends His Spirit into them.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
First they received the word of God, then they received the Holy Spirit later.
v. 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
v. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
v. 17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.
These verses also say, to me, that people can actually have some degree of understanding of the truth, before they receive the Holy Spirit, as in Acts 8:14. This is significant, in that so many seems to understand this truth, but do not stick with it.
So the Spirit is given to the elect and they are prepared and trained and shaped into His image.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
If you are the true elect your calling is sure.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
v. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
v. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
But I think to keep those chosen humbled, they can not know for sure. Because we can see in scripture, that there are those believers that turn away and lose out.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
v. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
2John 1:8 Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward.
Why admolished us to be faithful, unless there are those who are not.
Act 11:23 When he came and saw the grace of God, he was glad, and he exhorted them all to remain faithful to the Lord with steadfast purpose,
Rev 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
But we should strive always to be among the blessed few.
1Ti 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.
v. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat, great verses; and thanks all.
After going around and around with this in my mind, I think Darren ["As for knowing what God's plans are for me, only He can know."] and Snowfire ["Knowing versus Being an Elect are two different things."] I henceforth shall refrain from thinking in terms of feeling like a chosen/or elect. Both of you have hit the nail on the head, and I am grateful.
Carol, thanks, I will check out LOF XIII as well, and I appreciate realizing the Greek words are different for saints and elect. Saints = hagios =holy ones, elect = eklektos = chosen ones.
Gena, I guess we can only wonder how few elects there are and have been. Your other question: I am assuming that you don't have to believe like we do. Right??" would make for a good new thread! But I am too newbie to know how to respond to that one.
Take CARE, Janice
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Just absolutely loving having a conversation with myself... ;D ... I go on to thrash this out for myself, being very very thankful to Gena for directing me to my highlighted notes of LOF Part 13. [Sigh... it ain't easy bein' me folks... ] Hopefully others will benefit. Here we have it... more insights from Ray with my comments:
NOTES ABOUT ELECT from LOF Part 13 [All emphasis his quotes.]
“The very elect are all “companions and brothers” in our quest for the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.” [P.7 ] My comment: We who are in the process of becoming the elect are in a quest for the kingdom.
“Every one who is chosen out from the called will have first built their spiritual house upon the sand, and it will FALL! Every one who is of the chosen FEW will leave his “First love” (Rev 2: 4.) There is a time when all of the chosen will “look back” and see a time when they were not ‘… FIT for the Kingdom of God” (Luke 9: 62.) It happened to Peter, it happened to the other eleven apostles, it happened to Paul, it happened to Paul’s follower, it happened to the entire early church, it will happen to US!” [P. 11 LOF] My comment: I believe I am in this process now and will hopefully continue henceforth. (God gives us 'hope', Rom 8: 20.)
“Now for all of you whom God is calling only, you will not believe what I am saying, you will not do what I am teaching you, and you will not recover (in this lifetime) from the disaster of building your spiritual house (life) upon the sand. But what about those of you whom God is calling AND choosing?” [P. 13 ] My comment: I fully believe God is calling and choosing me now through Ray’s writings and by circumstantial evidence in my life.
“When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. We are still “The Church of the Living God,” but we are a peculiar people that no longer follows the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow. Therefore, WE WILL SEE THE BEAST that comes up out of the sea. We will be forced to WAR with the beast from the sea. And we will be OVERCOME by the wild beast.”
There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth and heaven…. The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea… There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God.” [P.17] My comment: Reiterating Ray, God chooses us … and we become separate..” I believe I am part of this continuing and ongoing process;
“The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually minded’ dwell in heaven – a much much higher realm than that of the earth.” [P.18]
“And since God is not only calling some of us but choosing us also, God begins to teach us anew. And the first thing He begins to show us is the WILD BEAST coming up out of the sea that is the CAUSE of our being overcome and the CAUSE of our spiritual house falling! … But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN… [P.22] My comment: Again, I feel per these writings that I am part of God’s choosing process, and I rejoice in this process. I do not think He will fail at what He is intending. Have I heard this sentiment, perhaps, somewhere before….????? Do I speak as a fool… ?? ;)
Until some new light shows up to my spiritual eyes... for now, although I do not know [indeed different from being] I am a chosen; I do, however, believe I am part of the process of becoming chosen if it is in His will. AND I REJOICE IN THIS! I think you should too. Aren’t Ray’s writings worth something in the grand scheme of things?
Thank you all for your patience on this special matter to me.
I praise God for you all, and I say amen and amen to His process, Janice
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/Hearts-1.gif)
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Amen Janice, very cool 8) :D ;D!!
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Thanks so much Diana... this has been so fruitful for me!
(http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z3/jbirdowens/Smile.gif)
As an aside... I can only pray to have a gift like yours... of caring words that often bring tears to my eyes when I am reading you... consoling others... offering scriptural wisdom... guiding all paths to Christ.
I humbly thank you and am thankful for you, Janice
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Hi Janice,
Thank you for posting those references. This is all so very encouraging!
Love,
Ursula
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I don't know about the running the race as to win the prize. And one of you mentioned that only "one" gets the prize.
So true mrsnacks,
One winner per race, how many races are there? How many generations have participated in these races through history?
Yes, the number may be few but it is much greater than one. A medal is given for 100 meters, 200 meters, 400 meters etc. We also have decathalons, marathons, bicycle races, etc.
The Olympics have been since ancient Greece, how many medal winners have there been throughout the history of the Olympics, or national meets, or world meets?
My point is that all the called (and chosen hopefuls) are not running in the same single race at the same appointed time, although the number is assuredly a small one there are 'winners' in each generation and these 'winners' all would have a unique distance, experience, or time of participation, the one constant is the Coach and Director of these spiritual races, our Lord Jesus Christ.
None of our journeys are exactly the same, just consider the apostles and how unique an experience each one had, it is the same with us, all of us are sinners but with different sins to overcome, different sins we as individuals are more prone to fall victim to, with faith in our Coach of coaches we may very well be in a 'winners circle' with our Lord as He tells us;
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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many are called few are "elect"
Eklektos 4:181,505
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ek-lek-tos' Adjective
Definition
picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ 1a Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
chosen for what purpose? just to go to heaven? or is it chosen for NOW
and if one cant know they are elect, how do they know what to be doing??
the word chosen and elect are the SAME!! ((ek-lek-tos'))
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Mt 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
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Beautiful transcendent thoughts Joe! HO!
Some CLNT verses for us:
1John 2: 28 And now, little children, remain in Him, that, if He should be manifested, we should be having boldness and not be put to shame by Him in His presence.
1John 3: 21 Beloved, if our heart should not be censuring us, we have boldness toward God,
Luke 12: 32 "Do not fear, little flocklet, for it delights your Father to give you the kingdom.
Thank You, Lord and Father,
Janice