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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Gina on June 05, 2015, 07:22:40 PM
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg39176.html#msg39176
So think of it this way, God is a title and it has a meaning. But don’t look it up, because you would go nuts, if you try to look up the ethnology of the word God on Google or whatever. It’s a difficult word, they really have trouble trying to you know, some trace it back to sand script.
There’s the god of the Norsemen and the gott of the Germanic tribes. But as far as they can determine ethnologically, it means the Placer. The One who places everything. The beginning of everything that moves or He’s the Placer or Poser or the Arbiter of all things.
It’s a title. We say even the pagans use God as a title or theos or elohim or el. They used all of these different language words for their gods, it a title. That’s why Paul said, “as there are gods many, and lords many…” (1 Cor 8:5) in the world and they knew what he was talking about. He said, “for us there is but one God…” And since Christ came to tell us who He is, we know who it is, it’s the Father! Out of whom, out of/ek ex, whom is all things.
Jesus Christ is a thing. He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from? Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.
They are one God, because you can’t have two different perfections. There is only one perfection. When you reach ultimate perfection, that’s God. There is only one such ultimate perfection. If you are a part of that perfection, you are God. That’s what God is, perfect. Christ is perfect, the express absolute total assumption of His Father That makes Him God. It isn’t something He acquired, on His own. But I do believe He did a lot. And His Father gave Him those powers, when He was able to handle them. We are to be given power, when we prove that we can handle it.
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When we come to the NT then we read about God. Jesus Christ said, they ask Him what is the greatest commandment, He said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” (Matt 22:37). The Greek says, you shall love the Kurios your Theos with all your heart and so on.
Kurios/Theos… who was He talking about? The Father. He’s quoting the OT, that comes out of Deuteronomy, where Jehovah Himself says, “You shall love the Lord your God” (Deu 6:5). Not Kurios/Theos, but Jehovah/Elohim.
Well who are we to worship with all our heart? Jehovah/Elohim or Kurios/Theos of the NT, who we know is the Father. But Jehovah/Elohim (where it’s quoted from the OT), is Jesus Christ. Who is it talking about? It’s always talking about BOTH. ALWAYS!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg39176.html#msg39176
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Very nice finds, Gina.
I wonder if you're thinking what I'm thinking? (On 'Solving the mystery of God')
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I don't know. Please PM me and tell me what you're thinking.
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Hi Gina,
It seems that it is hard to understand exactly how there is 1 'God' and we have what seems to be the 2 individuals in the Godhead. One God, that's the conundrum.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
The Father is by which all things come, even the Son. So I've wondered how is the Son the same God? I think it is because when the Son came forth He never separated from the Father, there is a constant and direct connection there. That is how I am thinking They are One... maybe thinking of the Son as a new or additional aspect that the Father brought forth of Himself?
1Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
It just seems to me that the Son was brought forth as a 'part' of the Father, that was put over everything concerning this creation. The Son was/is in charge of or God of this whole creation, but not a separate God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
One God, the Father and the only part of that God that we know is the Son from the OT, who then became Jesus Christ.
Also there being only 1 God, then the way that people become sons and daughters of God when we are "joined" with that same One God by His Spirit.
1Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Anyway something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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uoQte from: Kat on Today at 12:15:04 PM
Hi Gina,
It seems that it is hard to understand exactly how there is 1 'God' and we have what seems to be the 2 individuals in the Godhead. One God, that's the conundrum.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
The Father is by which all things come, even the Son. So I've wondered how is the Son the same God? I think it is because when the Son came forth He never separated from the Father, there is a constant and direct connection there. That is how I am thinking They are One... maybe thinking of the Son as a new or additional aspect that the Father brought forth of Himself?
1Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
It just seems to me that the Son was brought forth as a 'part' of the Father, that was put over everything concerning this creation. The Son was/is in charge of or God of this whole creation, but not a separate God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
One God, the Father and the only part of that God that we know is the Son from the OT, who then became Jesus Christ.
Also there being only 1 God, then the way that people become sons and daughters of God when we are "joined" with that same One God by His Spirit.
1Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Anyway something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kind of thinking a long the same lines Kat.
Continuing that thought of "one spirit" and Christ never having seperated Himself from the Father but more of an extension of Him in the form of an "autobiography."
John 4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
The Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father:
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
John 14:20 19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."
All is one?
Ephesians 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Gina,
It seems that it is hard to understand exactly how there is 1 'God' and we have what seems to be the 2 individuals in the Godhead. One God, that's the conundrum.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
The Father is by which all things come, even the Son. So I've wondered how is the Son the same God? I think it is because when the Son came forth He never separated from the Father, there is a constant and direct connection there. That is how I am thinking They are One... maybe thinking of the Son as a new or additional aspect that the Father brought forth of Himself?
1Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
It just seems to me that the Son was brought forth as a 'part' of the Father, that was put over everything concerning this creation. The Son was/is in charge of or God of this whole creation, but not a separate God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
One God, the Father and the only part of that God that we know is the Son from the OT, who then became Jesus Christ.
Also there being only 1 God, then the way that people become sons and daughters of God when we are "joined" with that same One God by His Spirit.
1Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Anyway something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks, Kat. Actually, I thought Ray's explanation was simple and clear and he explained it all perfectly:
The word "god" is a title and it means, "The Placer." One who places everything. Before all things. Our God that we worship is the ultimate "Placer." Our God is truly before all other gods and lords and everyone and every thing. He is King of kings and Lord of lords. He sets everything in order and puts it in motion.
Our God is ultimate perfection. There's no accusing Him of doing anything wrong. He's got it all figured out. He wants to have perfect sons and daughters. He is like a refining fire. And since we're rough around the edges, some of us, He refines us. I think of "royalty" as an example of people who are "refined." They're not really refined in the ultimate sense, but they're not unrefined either. They have manners and things that the world thinks of as "refined." That's kind of how God refines us. He's maturing us to become "refined," "perfected."
God is looking for a bride for Himself. As Ray said, He's not going to marry a whore.
Proverbs 31 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
Even rough rubies are valued above of all the other jewel stones - more valuable than diamonds. And God says, The price of a virtuous wife goes far beyond that of the most expensive jewels.
Like rough stones have to be polished and refined, we have to be polished (refined) so our worth goes far above rubies.
Proverbs 8:11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
God wants his bride to be wise and virtuous.
The beginning of wisdom is, get wisdom.
Ray said in the excerpt I put in my original post:
"They [the Father and Son] are one God, because you can’t have two different perfections.
There is only one perfection.
When you reach ultimate perfection, that’s God.
There is only one such ultimate perfection.
If you are a part of that perfection, you are God.
That’s what God is, perfect.
Christ is perfect, the express absolute total assumption of His Father.
That makes Him God.
It isn’t something He acquired, on His own. But I do believe He did a lot. And His Father gave Him those powers, when He was able to handle them. We are to be given power, when we prove that we can handle it.
So, the Father is perfect and that is why He is the ultimate Placer. And both Jesus and the Father work together perfectly to place all things in order.
And they want company. Lots of it.
Be (become) perfect even as your Heavenly Father is also perfect.
Jesus Christ is God and Jesus Christ is perfect:
Hebrews:
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
And the same way that the Father made Christ perfect, is how the Father makes us perfect (or God).
We actually have to DO things, like, obey the commands of God. That's hard. And we can't do that perfectly until we're perfected. Well, how do we become perfect (or God)? We learn and are made perfect through the judgments which God uses to refine us like fire.
I probably didn't say that very well, but that's how I see it.
What do you think of that? Can anyone refine what I'm trying to say? I just think it's something you can't see with your physical eyes and trying to type it all out or explain it verbally just doesn't do it justice. It's something you have to perceive of in your spirit as the spirit of truth testifies to you spirit. You begin to gain insight and understanding, but you can't explain it to anyone because it's something they have to go through in order to understand it.
Anyway, thanks for reading and taking part in this thread. I know I write a lot. You don't have to read or even respond to anything I say, if you don't want to. :)
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Hi Gina,
It seems that it is hard to understand exactly how there is 1 'God' and we have what seems to be the 2 individuals in the Godhead. One God, that's the conundrum.
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
The Father is by which all things come, even the Son. So I've wondered how is the Son the same God? I think it is because when the Son came forth He never separated from the Father, there is a constant and direct connection there. That is how I am thinking They are One... maybe thinking of the Son as a new or additional aspect that the Father brought forth of Himself?
1Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
It just seems to me that the Son was brought forth as a 'part' of the Father, that was put over everything concerning this creation. The Son was/is in charge of or God of this whole creation, but not a separate God.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
One God, the Father and the only part of that God that we know is the Son from the OT, who then became Jesus Christ.
Also there being only 1 God, then the way that people become sons and daughters of God when we are "joined" with that same One God by His Spirit.
1Cor 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
Eph 4:16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
v. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Anyway something to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
The beginning of wisdom is, get wisdom.
Proverbs 9 :10 says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. :)
The Hebrew verb yare can mean “to fear, to respect, to reverence” and the Hebrew noun yirah “usually refers to the fear of God and is viewed as a positive.
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Proverbs 9 :10 says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. :)
The Hebrew verb yare can mean “to fear, to respect, to reverence” and the Hebrew noun yirah “usually refers to the fear of God and is viewed as a positive.
Right. And when Jesus said in Luke 12 to be afraid of God, He doesn't mean bow down to Him like you would a bully, but that's how I perceived it back in the church.. because that's how those who try to take the place of God in our lives what us to feel We're so suggestible when we're ruled by fear. And I think that's what Jesus meant.
Besides, if we were to be afraid of Him in that way, how would we not wind up being cast into the Lake of Fire for sure! We'd always be feeling so cowardly and "timid" in His presence and all? ( I'm coming at it from a totally human perspective.)
And how do you relate to Him as your Abba Father?
Anyway, but we're here now. Thank God.
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When we come to the NT then we read about God. Jesus Christ said, they ask Him what is the greatest commandment, He said “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind” (Matt 22:37). The Greek says, you shall love the Kurios your Theos with all your heart and so on.
Kurios/Theos… who was He talking about? The Father. He’s quoting the OT, that comes out of Deuteronomy, where Jehovah Himself says, “You shall love the Lord your God” (Deu 6:5). Not Kurios/Theos, but Jehovah/Elohim.
Well who are we to worship with all our heart? Jehovah/Elohim or Kurios/Theos of the NT, who we know is the Father. But Jehovah/Elohim (where it’s quoted from the OT), is Jesus Christ. Who is it talking about? It’s always talking about BOTH. ALWAYS!
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg39176.html#msg39176
Hi Gina,
Greetings!
I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and
I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography
Actually we have all the privileges to know the secret of God especially in this site. If God wants us to know Him He will reveal himself to us, but of course in every fellowships there are evils roaming around. Let Ears to hear and eyes to see.
In Ray’s creed we can easily interpret what does it mean. (Note that it is my interpretations and anybody may disagree and if there are corrections am gladly to learn and be corrected)
1. Jesus is the Spokesman of God the Father
2. Word is the Spokesman of God the Father (Spokesman i mean speaking on behalf of the
Father. Also, others Him not in flesh below).
3. Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior/Word is the Spokesman of God the Father(Gen. 1:3,26)
4. The Word was God and became human (Jo. 1:14)
5. Jesus which is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior is sharing glory with God the Father
(Jo. 17:5)
6. "…..Yahweh(Jehovah/I AM), and there is none else, there is NO ELOHIM(God) beside Me"
(Isa. 45:5 & 6) (by Ray)
7. God cannot be created but creator.
8. Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior and not Jesus in the flesh is co-
creator of God the Father for all. (After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating).
9. If Jesus say “I came OUT from God” be it known that Jesus is in the flesh not Jesus
who is the Word/YHWH/Jehovah. All of Jesus saying in NT regarding himself is Him in
the Flesh (any correction/s are gladly welcome)
10. God the Father and Jehovah [Jesus] Elohim, ARE ONE GOD. "I and My Father are ONE"
(John 10:30). "One" what? O-N-E G-O-D! (by RAY)
1Cor 8:6 yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;
When you are trying to interpret 1Cor 8:6 the words “through whom are the all things” you must carefully understand that it is not actually Jesus in the flesh pertaining there, but Jesus who is the Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Word is actually in the mind of the author. The author knows very well that it is Jesus who is the Jehovah/YHWH in whom are the all things. We have to always pay attention to all the words when that words are spoken. Words sometimes speaking today but referencing yesterday or words spoken before referencing today.
When that God became human He now subjected to His Father, Even after that human who is God raised from the dead by God the Father, He will have a God and a Father, because that Human who is God who is Jesus did not cease to be God and will be Man according to Scriptures.
Other will say no, he will not be a man because he already had a glorious body, but can anyone deny the Scriptures?
1Tim. 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
I am not here to lecture or to teach but only wants to share the knowledge and truth that I am learning through the manuscripts of Ray and discussing in the forum and the wisdom that Jesus has given me. If there are corrections, by any means am glad to be corrected, we don’t need to stop studying and learning the truth by the intimidation and name calling of the others. Knowledge is power and sometimes corrections are the ways we could learn.
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Hi Santgem,
You wanted some corrections so I'll give them.
You said:" Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior and not Jesus in the flesh is co-
creator of God the Father for all. (After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating)."
Jesus and His Father are not "continuously creating." Elohim (dual) rested from His works of creating and making on the seventh day.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
You said; ": All of Jesus saying in NT regarding himself is Him in
the Flesh (any correction/s are gladly welcome) "
This simply isn't true. Jesus made a statement after He was resurrected in His spiritual body in which He appeared to Mary as a gardner.
John 20:15-17
15 She, supposing Him to be the gardener, said to Him, “Sir, if You have carried Him away, tell me where You have laid Him, and I will take Him away.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to Him,[a] “Rabboni!” (which is to say, Teacher).
17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
See the entire book of Revelation given long after Christ had ascended to God in which He gave a revelation of Himself to John.
Jesus had glory with His Father before the world began which pertains to before He was MADE man (flesh).
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE the world was.
In revelation, Jesus says of Himself that HE is the beginning of the creation of God. God the Father was not created, Jesus is, was, and will be, the beginning of the creation of God.
Revelation 3:14 [ The Lukewarm Church ] “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
Rev 3:14 and John 20 were made after He was raised spiritual and Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8 ) He is was and will have a God. He is was and will be the beginning of the creation of God.
You state that: Other will say no, he will not be a man because he already had a glorious body, but can anyone deny the Scriptures?
No one denies those scriptures but I don't agree with your understanding of them. Those verses of scripture have nothing to do with Jesus' eternal condition and everything to do with how He will judge the world. Christ is our mediator to God as "a man" because He makes intercessions for us (our High Priest) through His man EXPERIENCES. He RELATES to our weaknesses and infirmities because of his EXPERIENCE in the flesh and so faithfuly can make petitions on OUR behalf through that perspective. This will carry over into how He judges the world (Acts 17:35). He won't judge the world through a standard humans cannot possibly be held to. No one will be able to say that He is holding them to standards that not even He Himself could uphold.
Now Jesus has been restored to that "former glory" He had with His Father before the world began. Part of that glory includes being SPIRIT, possessing immortality, fully glorified. Moses (nor any man) couldn't even look on His (Jesus') face and live, He had to hide in a fissure and peer through some rocks to see His back part! That is not a man! That is a glorious powerful spiritual being who has the form of a man so that we can relate to God whom He is the image of. Jesus is as much a man as He is a burning bush, a gardner, a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, a lamb, a lion etc... Being spirit is part of that glory that Jesus had before the world began. Spiritual beings cannot die. Christ needed to be made man to die.
1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
2 Cor 3:17-18 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Numbers 23:19 GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Take numbers 23:19 to mean whatever you want it to mean. Interestingly, the word God, is the singular form of Elohim--'El.'
God bless,
Alex
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Hi santgem,
I would like to discuss a few of your comments, we are all seeking a better understand of these things, so the more Scripture we can see on these things the better. I see Alex has answered you already and I may have repeated some of what he is saying, but I'll leave it as it is.
8. Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH/I AM/Savior and not Jesus in the flesh is co-
creator of God the Father for all. (After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating).
I trying to understand what you mean by "After Jesus ascended to His Father we can conclude
that they are now continuously creating"? There is a Scripture that shows They (Father and Son) continued to "work" while Jesus was in the flesh... do you consider that different than 'creating'?
John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
I mean I do know what you mean by They continue creating after Jesus ascended... the literal act of creation was "finished" in Genesis 2, but certainly the work continues.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. Just trying to see where you're coming from on this.
9. If Jesus say “I came OUT from God” be it known that Jesus is in the flesh not Jesus
who is the Word/YHWH/Jehovah. All of Jesus saying in NT regarding himself is Him in
the Flesh (any correction/s are gladly welcome)
10. God the Father and Jehovah [Jesus] Elohim, ARE ONE GOD. "I and My Father are ONE"
(John 10:30). "One" what? O-N-E G-O-D! (by RAY)
Okay so Jesus did make that statement while in the flesh... was He somebody different as the God of the OT then? NO of course not... right in your next comment it clarifies that He/Jesus/the Son, and the Father is One. They always were One and always will be One, They are inseparable.
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
When that God became human He now subjected to His Father, Even after that human who is God raised from the dead by God the Father, He will have a God and a Father, because that Human who is God who is Jesus did not cease to be God and will be Man according to Scriptures.
Other will say no, he will not be a man because he already had a glorious body, but can anyone deny the Scriptures?
1Tim. 2:5For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
Acts 17:31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”
Okay not sure but from this it seems like you are saying that the OT God - the Son was not subject to the Father until He became flesh? Well there are also words used like "let Us make man in Our" (Gen 1:26) "Come, let Us go down" (Gen 11:7). But it was not until Jesus came and revealed to the world that there was this Father and Son relationship that we know of it.
Luke 10:22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
Now that Christ revealed the Father, we can see where the Son was referred to in the OT and even then He was referred to be "MY (Father's) Servant" (the Son who became Christ Jesus), meaning He/the Son was subject to the Father even then.
Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant! I am upholding Him. My Chosen! Accepted by My soul! I bestow My spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the nations." (CLV)
And we can understand that this was indeed speaking of who would become Christ Jesus and be crucified "a bruised Reed," but that is being declared then and there "Behold" at that time when it is spoken and also a prophecy of what He will be sent to do.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed He will not break, and dimmed flax He will not quench, for truth will He bring forth judgment." (CLV)
I would also like to show some Scripture of Him being a man in the OT... I don't think there would be any dispute about His being a man now, in His glorious form as of the Scripture you gave. I'm trying to figure out if you're saying He/the Son had to take on human form to be a man? So here are OT Scripture that does show He was always considered as a man there in the OT, both in His glorious form and in the natural physical form.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. (also see Eze 08).
Gen 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
v. 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
He was brought forth from the beginning to be the Spokesman and to have an image/shape/form for the invisible God, from which He would then create the physical form of mankind to be like Him.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
Now I believe this is speaking of the physical form and certainly not the spiritual image of God, that as we know is a process still being worked out. So this is Scripture I found that you may want to consider in your study.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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In the fairness of discussion for the topic of whether Jesus is a man or not, I wanted to share a bit more and then try and tie it together.
Firstly, it was ray who rightly pointed out that there is no statement in the old testatement which says that "God is spirit."
Now, with that being said, there is a statement in the old testatement that say, "God is not a man. (Num. 23:19)" Curiously, this God is the hebrew word "El" which is the singular for God (Elohim). The, "let US make man in OUR image" and "Let US go..."
It could be argued that this singular reference must be God the Father and I think that could be possible or at least argued but i'm not sure.
Now in the new testatement we have statements such as "God IS spirit. (John 4:24)" This is the greek word THEOS which usually refers to God the Father, especially when Christ is using the word or is already included in the statement. Such as the "Theos and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3)."
We also have the scriptures SantGem referred to as Jesus being a man when it comes to judgment (1 Tim 2:5, Acts 17:31).
So then is Jesus a man? I don't think the scriptures are saying that. The references to Him being a man are purely in the context of judgment. The old testatement references to Jesus are that He has the "likeness" or "form" of a man but not that He is a man. In the new testatement we do find scriptures that verify Christ as being spirit (NOW) such as Him being raised a quickening spirit (1 Cor 15:45) and that He is the spirit (2 Cor 3:17). Jesus told the disciples that He was coming to them, how? In the form of the comforter (holy spirit). He wasn't leaving them bereaved (John 14:18)
We also know flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven so Jesus is at the very least not flesh and blood man (1 Cor 15:50). Jesus was made man by emptying Himself.
So how do we reconcile all these things? I don't think Christ is any more a man than He is a burning bush or a lamb while He has been those things, I think He is more than those things. A spiritual being with the FORM or LIKENESS of a man is what the scriptures seem to indicate.
Eze 1:26 And above the expanse that [is] over their head, as an appearance of a sapphire stone, [is] the likeness of a throne, and on the likeness of the throne a likeness, as the appearance of man upon it from above." (CLV)
Eze 1:26 And above the expanse that was over their heads, as the appearance of a sapphire stone, was the likeness of a throne,—and upon the likeness of a throne, was a likeness as the appearance of a man upon it above. (ROTHERHAM'S)
Daniel 7:9-10 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (KJV)
Rev 1:13-18 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Psalm 104:2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent.
Welp I hope this helps the discussion in a positive and constructive way.
God bless,
Alex
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Hello Kat and Alex,
Greetings!
So sorry that I cannot answers you both in one time. There are lot of topics that if I answer all of these will bring us to nowhere. Maybe the best possible thing we can do is to learn from each other one by one to what I just posted.
Number 8 answer
Yes indeed that the Father and Son continued to “work” while Jesus was in the flesh. The question is, Is infant Jesus still creating? Where do all the people comes from when Jesus is still infant? Who creates people? Do people create people? Do you create people? Is God stop creating people up to this date? Is God stop creating things up to this date? Is God literally rested after creation and stop creating people and things up to this date? When Jesus ascended to heaven, did He not creating people and things up to this date or only the God the Father is creating? Is Jesus not given up some of His prior Glory while in the flesh?
@Kat. “was He somebody different as the God of the OT then? NO of course not”.
They are not literally one! Jesus is not the Father himself. Jesus is having the flesh. Jesus is God and Man at the same time, while Father is Spirit. Jesus is now having a God and Father while in the flesh and even after his resurrection. When Jesus is in the form of Jehovah, they are one! The Word was with God. The Word was God.
@Kat. Now that Christ revealed the Father, we can see where the Son was referred to in the OT and even then He was referred to be "MY (Father's) Servant" (the Son who became Christ Jesus), meaning He/the Son was subject to the Father even then.
Isa 42:1 Behold My Servant! I am upholding Him. My Chosen! Accepted by My soul! I bestow My spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the nations." (CLV)
And we can understand that this was indeed speaking of who would become Christ Jesus and be crucified "a bruised Reed," but that is being declared then and there "Behold" at that time when it is spoken and also a prophecy of what He will be sent to do.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed He will not break, and dimmed flax He will not quench, for truth will He bring forth judgment." (CLV)
This is exactly what I mean. You know very well that the one speaking there is Jesus in Jehovah form. God did not say this when there is still nothing but only God and the Word or before creation. That verse is a prophecy regarding Jesus who would be having a flesh, who “He shall bring forth judgment to the nations”. Jesus when the fullness of time will be subjected to his Father. There is no servant and judgment of the nations before creation. The Son is not subjected and not servant to the Father before creation. The verses are prophecy to Jesus so that he will be servant and be subjected to his Father.
I would also like to show some Scripture of Him being a man in the OT... I don't think there would be any dispute about His being a man now, in His glorious form as of the Scripture you gave. I'm trying to figure out if you're saying He/the Son had to take on human form to be a man? So here are OT Scripture that does show He was always considered as a man there in the OT, both in His glorious form and in the natural physical form.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it. (also see Eze 08).
Gen 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
v. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
v. 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
Before creation there is no throne, It takes creation to have a throne. It takes human and creation to have a God.
He was brought forth from the beginning to be the Spokesman and to have an image/shape/form for the invisible God, from which He would then create the physical form of mankind to be like Him.
Yes it is true of what had you said above, reminding that the Spokesman have yet a flesh from the beginning. Word became flesh after creation.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
1Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
Now I believe this is speaking of the physical form and certainly not the spiritual image of God, that as we know is a process still being worked out. So this is Scripture I found that you may want to consider in your study.
Before creation God already has a plan. God already will bring a savior even there is no sin being committed. God wants us to be like Him to know good and evil that is why He brings all of these. God cannot die so He brings Jesus His only Son. Jehovah gave up some of His prior glory in order to die. When Jehovah/Word became flesh He was subjected to his Father. The Word/Jehovah that became flesh is Jesus. Jesus will be subjected to his God and to his Father. Yes indeed they are one God before because the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus is the Word who became flesh. Jesus will be Man and God even after his resurrection and being a Man will be subjected to God.
Psalm 22:10 . I was thrust into your arms at my birth. You have been my God from the moment I was born.
I was cast upon thee from my birth: thou art my God from the time I was born (WEB)
I was cast upon thee from the womb; Thou art my God since my mother bare me(ASV)
I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.(KJV)
Jer 32:27Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
Glad hearing from you again, PEACE!
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Hello.
Ray said and I quote: " Jesus will always be a man". End quote.
Regards, Geoff.
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Hello.
Ray said and I quote: " Jesus will always be a man". End quote.
Regards, Geoff.
Hi Geoff,
I believe the only place Ray said this was in his trinity paper which was written a long long time ago. Ray's understanding of Jesus and the Father was changing and had changed since then. You can see that throughout his many conferences and studies since that paper involving this topic.
It may also be possible ray did not mean literal flesh and blood man but spirit with the form or likeness of a man. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Everyone must be born of the spirit and that which is born of the spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. Those that are born of the spirit are invisible and powerful like the wind.
John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Jesus was born of the Father and what is the Father? Spirit. That which is born of the spirit IS SPIRIT!
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Ay I am convinced now that Christ, born of His Father, is not flesh and blood man but is spirit with the likeness amd form of a man. We too, if we overcome, shall be raised with spiritual bodies but retain the form and likeness of humanity.
Good to see you posting again Geof, its been a LONG time.
God bless,
Alex
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Santegem,
They are not literally one! Jesus is not the Father himself. Jesus is having the flesh. Jesus is God and Man at the same time, while Father is Spirit. Jesus is now having a God and Father while in the flesh and even after his resurrection. When Jesus is in the form of Jehovah, they are one!
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
Jesus declared this as an absolute statement of truth, it cannot be construed to mean just while He was in the flesh. Being as One is what gives Father and Son the quality of God. The Father and the Son are always One, from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be. Humans will be sons/daughters of God as well, when they are resurrected to be One with them... that is the God family, that is being One to be united with the Father through Christ.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The question is, Is infant Jesus still creating? Where do all the people comes from when Jesus is still infant? Who creates people? Do people create people? Do you create people? Is God stop creating people up to this date? Is God stop creating things up to this date? Is God literally rested after creation and stop creating people and things up to this date? When Jesus ascended to heaven, did He not creating people and things up to this date or only the God the Father is creating?
This is the Father's creation, EVERYTHING depends on the Father, even the Son "for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, also John 10:29; 13:16)... it is from the power (Holy Spirit) of the Father that everything is done through the Son. The Father brought forth and put the Son as God over this creation, to do all His (the Father's) will through the Son. When Christ died it was the Father that continued to uphold this creation.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
v. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
This is the basics of what I believe and all else hinges on this understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I'll add this from from the 'Is Jesus God" Bible study.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=12896.0 ---------------
There is a lot we don’t know. The Bible talks about the heavenly host, who do you suppose that is. Even who are the Elohim? Well we say there were 2. Yeah says who? Who says that Elohim was 2, I don’t read that, I don’t read that at all. [comment: It’s plurality, duality?] Elohim is the plurality of El and we translate it God. You could translate it any number of ways, you don’t need to use a pagan title. Like I said, you can translate it mighty, you could translate it eternal, I guess, with one exception. If it includes Jesus Christ, if He is not eternal, then you can not translate Elohim eternal, because one member of this Elohim would not be eternal.
But it’s an interesting question, I have kind of feeling that in some respects Jesus Christ may have had the appearance of a man. But I don’t really have anything to base that on. What do you think Gordon? [I think Jesus Christ was always a man. But what He became was flesh when He came here.] Yeah I kind of think that’s probably right. I’ve always felt He was definitely masculine, not feminine. Although there is El Shaddi. [He always appeared as a man in the Old Testament.] But I mean, El Shaddi, the breasted one. I think it is El Shaddi, the breasted God. That is very feminine.
Yeah I always felt Christ was masculine and therefore would probably be called a man. In the New Testament it says “the Man, Jesus,” it definitely calls Him ‘a man.’ Was He a man back then. [Comment: In what form, I don’t understand, in what form was He a man? Certainly not a physical man.] [Comment: Well He appeared as a man in the Old Testament.] Well yeah, but so did angels, so that doesn’t prove anything. [Comment: Here is an interesting Scripture here in Colossians that we haven’t talked about, that I think might be mentioned along with this subject.]
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
Yeah I’ve thought about that Scripture already.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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God revealed to me the answer to this nature of God question that Ray was researching before his death.
It is a most precious gift from God. What I did was to bring together all the Scriptures concerning Who God is. As the Scriptures say, "here a little, there a little, line upon line." I asked God to show me the answer. I trembled at His Word, that is I believed what He said and did not use my own opinion. And the Spirit showed me the truth. It is marvelous; the cutting edge of what the Scriptures teach because the greatest truth of the Scriptures is Who He is and What He wants.
The major problem with the above posts, both here and in other posts about this question, is that those writing do not know the truth about this matter. Most admit that they do not know, but still they teach anyway. Blind leaders of the blind. The Book of James issues the warning about the need to be careful in trying to teach.
I spoke with Ray and told him that I didn't think many on the Forum would "get" where he was going with this nature of God subject. Ray told me we must all go where the Spirit leads.
I am coming to see that apparently Jesus wants to teach His Elect this truth in the age to come. There is a Scripture to that effect. Also, it is Jesus Who is our Teacher. Paul in discussing this subject said "not many know this" and he was talking to the Church. That was 1900 years ago and the same seems to apply today. Ray was on the trail, but God took him before he could finish his complete writing; however, in reading Ray's creed I see where he knew the answer.
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Hello Alex,
I have always been here. I don't post much because i don't like to debate or argue. i have been here since 2007, just reading all the posts and seeing what everybody is talking about. I have read and reread everything that Ray has written and have come to a point where i understand most of it. Not all.
But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood". As jesus is so are we in this world, does that make me something other than a man or does it mean i am still "flesh and blood" but with the down payment of his "Spirit". I believe the latter. When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood", but there was a difference, he had the fullness of God dwelling within him.
I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".
Anyway that is all i have to say. Thanks everyone. Regards Geoff.
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Hello Alex,
I have always been here. I don't post much because i don't like to debate or argue. i have been here since 2007, just reading all the posts and seeing what everybody is talking about. I have read and reread everything that Ray has written and have come to a point where i understand most of it. Not all.
But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood". As jesus is so are we in this world, does that make me something other than a man or does it mean i am still "flesh and blood" but with the down payment of his "Spirit". I believe the latter. When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood", but there was a difference, he had the fullness of God dwelling within him.
I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".
Anyway that is all i have to say. Thanks everyone. Regards Geoff.
Then we are in agreement Geoff. Thanks for clarifying :)
God bless,
Alex
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JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on ;) thanks.
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JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on ;) thanks.
Hi Lauriellen,
JFK might have seen something in ray's paper that was taken down by Dennis which was on the forums for a time. I do not believe I had a chance to read it and if I did I certainly don't recall it.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13920.msg141794.html#msg141794
JFK:
This thread is proof of everlasting life. It won't die. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ray said in his April 2, 2011 message that his previous writings about the nature of God and Jesus were incomplete in that he (Ray) did not bring together all the Scriptures on this subject.
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
Therefore, it was Ray himself who acknowledged his previous teachings on this subject are not complete.
Ray's message of April 2, 2011 has been removed from the B-T website. I believe it was wrong to do so. But God will judge.
Ray is not Jesus. Ray's teachings are not Scripture. What I respected about Ray was his adherence to God's Word and respect for it. And his courage to rethink a subject to see if it truly conformed to the Scriptures. I talked with Ray a few times in person and several times over the telephone. Ray's respect for God's Scriptures is what stood out to me.
In one of our conversations I told Ray that I didn't think the majority of members of the B-T Forum would accept where he was headed with this Enigma/Nature of God subject. Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit of God leads us.
Since, Ray brought this matter up, I've been studying all the Scriptures I could find on this subject. I asked God to teach me because I want to know all there is about Him. What He truly is.
God has showed me that He is One. There are not two, or three of them. Only One God, Who is unique and special and unlike anything we can imagine. Who can appear before Abraham under the terenbith trees of Mamre, and as an actual human being on the earth and be killed, and at the same time be beyond the heaven of heavens because nothing can contain Him.
But it is apparent that there are not two of us who believe the same thing on this issue. It is a source of confusion. I am going to try and stay out of this discussion in the future.
Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls before someone who cannot appreciate value. Only God can bring understanding on this matter. God said the time will come when all will know Me (God) from the least to the greatest.
What a Great and Magnificent God He truly is. What a blessing that He is creating mankind in His image.
DENNIS:
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
I've said this before and I guess I have to say it again.
Ray was doing a LOT of pain medication the last year of his life. There were more than one post he wanted on the forum that I asked Craig not to post. He was not making sense.
I questioned Ray more than once at breakfast about this and he had no answers for my questions.
Ray was not always thinking right the last year of his life. He was confused much of the time. He was wrong about this.
He never figured this out because it contracted what he taught many years ago.
JFK:
Hey Dave. No need to respect me. I'm just a man. If you think I'm lying, just say so. :D
However, I did not misrepresent Ray's April 2, 2011 message. It was in writing and on this website at least a couple of years, I believe. I found Ray coherent and writing in plain English and quoting Scriptures in support of his statements that his and our understanding of this nature of God matter was not complete. There are similar emails from Ray on this same matter in the emails section of the Forum.
I will also add that in my conversations with Ray, he was coherent and logical in his words and thoughts and freely quoted Scriptures in support of his statements to me. I will also add that I found him to be a gentleman in his answers to me, even when I completely disagreed with him on Dr. Steger's health rules. We parted as friends and on good terms after my last conversation with him. Our last words concerned the Scripture in Roman's 14 that the Kingdom of God doesn't consist of food or drink. (Of course, no need to believe me, with all respect.)
You can read more of JFK's responces as well as other discussion in that thread. JFK provides some of his scriptures on page 4 in a discussion with Kat.
God bless,
Alex
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September 13th, 2011 Message by Ray ends with:
I continue to work on my paper delving into the enigma of God. The real secret to Who or What God is has
everything to do with what God wants, what He desires, what is His plan and purpose for creation. We know
that man is made "in the Image of God" (Gen. 1:27 and I Cor. 11:7), but why is God in the Image of man?
When we understand what God wants, we will I believe understand Who and What God IS.
Keep me in your prayers as you are in mine, and may God be with you all, always,
Ray
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I found an April 19th 2012 message from Ray posted by Craig but it didn't seem to have anything to add. Ray said this which was interesting but not much else:
I also have about a hundred pages of additional notes, which I probably won't
use all of. It is the last Installment that will be the most difficult. Both the concept
and the explanation are a handful for most people to wrap their minds around,
so as with all of my papers, I will strive to made it as simple, logical, and
Scriptural as I am able. The few papers that I have read on this subject by
scholars who have a relatively good understanding of this Enigma of God,
are so erudite that I doubt many could follow or discern their teaching. That
is decidedly not how I write.
------------------------------------
I'll keep looking...
God bless,
Alex
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Thank you Alex.
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Ray wrote: When we understand what God wants, we will I believe understand Who and What God IS.
What is that God wants?
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Dave in Tenn -
Is not Our Heavenly Father Life itself - and perfect in all He is and does without any faults.
Does not Our Heavenly Father want lots and lots of children - each one unique like precious stones and perfect like Him.
Does He not dwell in Light in absolute Love.
What is the answer then?
That He is perfect and He will reproduce Himself by having many perfect and unique children who are in His Image.
Curious George.
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But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood". As jesus is so are we in this world, does that make me something other than a man or does it mean i am still "flesh and blood" but with the down payment of his "Spirit". I believe the latter. When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood", but there was a difference, he had the fullness of God dwelling within him.
I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".
To the Gentleman,
Greetings!
But in my last post, I realise that Ray didn't mean a "Man" as in "flesh and blood"
When Jesus was on this earth he was definitely "flesh and blood"
I didn't think that Ray meant that "Jesus will always be a man" as in "flesh and blood". I know what he meant and i believe i understand it. It's a bit hard for me to put it on paper. So I won't. But I will say that Jesus is the first of many. He is Pre Eminent. Therefore when he comes we will all change and be like him. So does that mean i will no longer be a "Man". In a sense i will still be a "Man" but no longer "flesh and blood".
We all know very well that when Jesus was resurrected by the Father He was no longer as "flesh and blood" but with glorious body.
The real problem is is when i say that "Jesus will always be a man" someone will find it and make a way to inject that a man is having a flesh and blood and flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. I have a hard time understanding these people why and why they are comparing the precious blood of Jesus to human like us. I believe that even Jesus will retain His precious blood He will definitely inherit the Kingdom of God because His blood is precious and His blood (1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect) is without blemish or defect.
Precious blood of Jesus:
. The Blood of Christ provides a suitable covering for man's sin, guilt and shame. Genesis 3:21.
2. The Blood of Christ makes the one who offers it both acceptable to and accepted by God. Genesis 4:1-6.
3. Through the offering of the Blood of Christ, (we believers) have safety from the coming Judgment. Exodus 12:13.
4. The Blood of Christ was shed for the remission of our sins. Matthew 26:28; Ephesians 1:7.
5. Through the Blood of Christ, we have cleansing from sin. Revelation 1:5; 7:14.
6. Through the Blood of Christ we have redemption; this is, we are bought back out of the slave market. Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 1:14; I Peter 1:18-19.
7. Through the Blood of Christ we have peace with God. Colossians 1:20; Ephesians 2:14.
8. Through the Blood of Christ we who are "afar off" are "made nigh". Ephesians 2:13
9. Through the Blood of Christ, the guilt and condemnation we incurred, through the breaking of God's laws, is "blotted out". Colossians 2:13.
10. The Blood of Christ, called the Blood of God, bought us for God and Christ, and made us His own peculiar possession. Acts 20:28; I Corinthians 6:19; and I Peter 2:9-10.
11. The Blood of Christ purges our conscience so that our service to the Living God might be acceptable. Hebrews 9:14.
12. The Blood of Christ gives us an exalted standing, and makes us "kings and priests unto God". Rev. 1:5-6; 5:9-10.
13. Through the Blood of Christ we are justified before God. Romans 5:9.
14. Through the Blood of Christ we are sanctified. I Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:14; 13:12.
15. Through the Blood of Christ we have eternal security and the assurance of salvation. Hebrews 10:10-14; 13:20; 9:12.
16. Through the Blood of Christ we are made "one" with all others believers-both Jews and Gentiles-in the new body of Christ. Ephesians 2:13-14.
17. Through the Blood of Christ we are reconciled-made right or righteous with God. II Corinthians 17-21.
18. Through the Blood of Christ we can enter into "the Holy of Holies", that is, into God's presence in heaven. Hebrews 10:19-22.
19. Through the Blood of Christ we have fellowship with God, and with His Son Jesus Christ, and with other believers. I John 1:7; 1:1-3.
20. Through the Blood of Christ He purchased for us "an eternal inheritance". Hebrews 9:14-15.
21. Through the Blood of Christ we have overcome the Devil. Revelation 12:11.
Again, i will state and firm in my belief that Jesus will always be a man and God at the same time.
Thank you the gentleman Geoff that you secured my belief and very very very happy and really leaping with joy when you pull up what Ray had said.
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Santegem,
They are not literally one! Jesus is not the Father himself. Jesus is having the flesh. Jesus is God and Man at the same time, while Father is Spirit. Jesus is now having a God and Father while in the flesh and even after his resurrection. When Jesus is in the form of Jehovah, they are one!
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
Jesus declared this as an absolute statement of truth, it cannot be construed to mean just while He was in the flesh. Being as One is what gives Father and Son the quality of God. The Father and the Son are always One, from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be. Humans will be sons/daughters of God as well, when they are resurrected to be One with them... that is the God family, that is being One to be united with the Father through Christ.
John 17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
v. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
v. 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
The question is, Is infant Jesus still creating? Where do all the people comes from when Jesus is still infant? Who creates people? Do people create people? Do you create people? Is God stop creating people up to this date? Is God stop creating things up to this date? Is God literally rested after creation and stop creating people and things up to this date? When Jesus ascended to heaven, did He not creating people and things up to this date or only the God the Father is creating?
This is the Father's creation, EVERYTHING depends on the Father, even the Son "for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, also John 10:29; 13:16)... it is from the power (Holy Spirit) of the Father that everything is done through the Son. The Father brought forth and put the Son as God over this creation, to do all His (the Father's) will through the Son. When Christ died it was the Father that continued to uphold this creation.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
v. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
v. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
1Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
This is the basics of what I believe and all else hinges on this understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Greetings Kat,
The Father and the Son are always One, from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be.
This is the Father's creation, EVERYTHING depends on the Father, even the Son "for My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28, also John 10:29; 13:16)... it is from the power (Holy Spirit) of the Father that everything is done through the Son. The Father brought forth and put the Son as God over this creation, to do all His (the Father's) will through the Son. When Christ died it was the Father that continued to uphold this creation.
Can you please explain to me well of what you said that "from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be" then shifted to "everything is done through the Son"
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Dave in Tenn -
Is not Our Heavenly Father Life itself - and perfect in all He is and does without any faults.
Does not Our Heavenly Father want lots and lots of children - each one unique like precious stones and perfect like Him.
Does He not dwell in Light in absolute Love.
What is the answer then?
That He is perfect and He will reproduce Himself by having many perfect and unique children who are in His Image.
Curious George.
Bingo! God wants a family.
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Can you please explain to me well of what you said that "from the time He came forth (there was no Son before He was brought forth), until now and always will be" then shifted to "everything is done through the Son"
There is but one Scripture that I believe the word "eternal" is properly translated in relation to God.
Rom 1:20 for the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world, by the things made being understood, are plainly seen, both His eternal power and Godhead--to their being inexcusable; (YLT)
Another place is where it speaks of "immortality," which Strong's says means deathlessness. Ray explains that this must be speaking of the Father, because Christ did die... though Christ certainly has immortality now. But from this we can gather that the Father is eternal.
Also at the same conference Ray shows that Christ was "the only begotten Son" (John 1:18) and the "Firstfruit" and Christ - the Son was first and foremost in this creation and "He is before all things" (Col 1:17). He came first, because it was through Him that God the Father does everything concerning this creation. He had a beginning and He is the Beginning.
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning (Strong's G746 - a commencement, or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order, time, place or rank): - beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule) of the creation of God:
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?' Nashville 07 Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 -----
Now there is a scripture (1 Tim. 2:5), that I have been taking another look at. Like I say, if I make a mistake I just have no problem saying I was wrong about this or that.
1Tim 6:13 I charge thee in the sight of God(so who is the subject here - God), who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;
v. 14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 15 which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Well you say that’s got to be talking about Jesus Christ. Well maybe not. I mean God is everything that Jesus Christ is too, you know. Who is the Savior of the world? Jesus Christ? God is the Savior of the world! Yes Jesus Christ is the channel through who it comes. But God almighty is the Savior of the world. He’s also the Creator. We are actually going to find out, who actually did the creating? Christ. But who is the Creator? God the Father, okay. But we are going to see it specifically, in detail. So then it says;
1Tim 6:15 “which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16 who only hath immortality…”
I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But I’m thinking now, no, he’s talking about God. God only has immortality;
v. 16 “… dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see…”
Isn’t this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?
Well here’s the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I don’t know of any.
There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He can’t die. But we are talking about a time when God ‘only’ had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
v
[17] "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world?" (Heb. 9:26).
Jesus clearly existed back then.
[18] This one might blow you away. How could God give birth, to a God? I guess you would say ‘a’ God, He is His Son, ‘a’ Son, ‘a’ God. How do you give birth to a God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
Now we have always heard, that we know nobody has ever seen God the Father, heard His voice, seen His shape ever. The only begotten Son, He is the One who reveals who the Father is, right. The Concordant translates that “unfolds Him.” You know, unfolds - unravels who and what the Father is to humanity. Because the first part said, nobody has ever seen God. But here is the point I want to draw attention to, “the only Begotten Son,” Son is not in some manuscripts. The Greek "Theos" [God] is in the manuscripts.
Let me give you John 1:18 the Concordant version and some others.
a. "God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten GOD Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" (Concordant Literal Version)
b. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, Who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known" (New International Version).
c. "the only begotten Son, Who is God and close to the Father’s heart" (The New Testament in the Language of Today By William Beck).
d. "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son Who is close to the Father’s heart" (New Revised Standard Version).
e. "No one has seen God at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing in the bosom of the Father, He has interpreted Him" (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). Etc.
How about that. The only begotten God. Jesus Christ the only begotten God. Well He’s the firstfruit, right. When you read the Bible you read, “In the beginning,” but the word should be, “In beginning,” or “A beginning,” and not ‘the,’ it’s not there. “In a beginning, God - Elohim created the heavens and the earth.” Now Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit.
We just read, Heb 1:5 “For to which of the angels said He at any time, you art My Son, This day have I begotten you?” And we read over in verse 9, “Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy FELLOWS.”
But we are going to be His brothers. We have to be begotten too. Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit of them that slept(1 Cor 15 :20), the Firstfruit. James says we are a kind of Firstfruits (James 1:18). In Rev. 14, we read that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits. Do you know what it actually says in the Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 “In Firstfruit God created the heaven and earth.”
Who is the Firstfruit? Jesus Christ!
“In Firstfruit, God created the heaven and the earth.”
“In Jesus Christ, God created the heaven and earth.”
v
[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS." If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “And one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of. There it is!
Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why? He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17)
So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
v
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.
Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim.
I know I’m going to get this really out of sequence here, but I have to go with the flow as God inspires me. So I’ll just talk about it here. I mean we are being introduced here to what is really happening. But most people just don’t see it, they just don’t get it.
So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.
So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’ So it’s BOTH!
v
Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory (speaking of Jesus Christ) and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Okay back to verse 2.
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;
Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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For all those interested, here is a thread related to the topic at hand but beginning through different inquiry:
It appears Duane has a nack for stirring up this search. It's funny, God has a sense of humor for sure! ;)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14704.0.html
Another relavent thread that takes this same turn:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=15398.0
God bless,
Alex
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JFk, I was just wondering if you would care to share a few of the scriptures that you feel were the most important keys to leading you to the understanding of the nature of God. I am not asking you to expound on them if you don't want to, as I know teaching is not allowed......just throw us a bone to chew on ;) thanks.
Hi Lauriellen,
The first baby step is to know how many Gods there are. Most of those who think they follow Christ believe in three Gods: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. A much, much smaller group believe in two Gods: a Father God and a Jesus God. Now both groups say they believe in one God, will cite Scriptures to explain their beliefs, and will get extremely angry with you if you say they worship more than one God.
The Scriptures teach there is only One God. Below I have cited just a few Scriptures on this Nature of God/Enigma of God subject; they are only a small tip of the iceberg.
As always, there is only one way to understand the Scriptures, and that is by the Holy Spirit; no other way.
1 Cor 8:6 John 1:1 Gen 1:1 Proverbs 4:7 Deut 6:4 Colossians 1:15-17 2 Cor 4:4, last phrase
John 10:30 John 14:9 John 20:28 Titus 2:13 Isa 9:6 Isa 43:10, 11, 12 Isa 44:6
Isa 45:6, 18, 22
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This email is AMAZING... wow. I really want to read that April 2nd message now. Sigh.
-----------------------------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.msg115456.html#msg115456
Email self explanatory. Ray's comments will be in blue.
Let me make a few COMMENTS.......in your email.
Hi Ray, I hope this is a good day for you. I have been thinking a lot about the things you brought out in the last Bible study, really interesting stuff. I thought an email might be the best way to ask you about this, of course only if you feel like looking at it. I know you are studying this subject of 'the Father' and what He is and all, so it would not hurt my feelings at all if you do not feel like you can't go into this right now or do not have the time. But I will present this and if you find any point worth commenting on that would be nice.
I will start with this Scripture.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.
I understand that we have not heard the Father's voice, yet many did hear Christ and He represented the Father completely and was "the Word of God."
Rev 19:13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
So is it wrong to think that when we hear Christ we are hearing the Father? Not literally, but in essence it is the Father?
COMMENT: Yes, of course, we hear the Father through Christ. Jesus is the "Word" as you point out, which is really the "expression," the "statement," and the "representative" of the Father. The meaning of "logos--word" is more than just a single word as we see defined in a dictionary, but historically represented the message of the messenger. Jesus is the Bridge between the spirit realm of God and the physical universe.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
v. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
I do want you to know that I realize that Christ is not the Father, and the voice that spoke at the baptism of Christ was not His (Jesus') own voice saying those things, it was "a voice," as you have stated before, of an angel/messenger.
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
COMMENT: How could anyone believe this verse and yet believe that Jesus was just a "lucky Jew" who was chosen to be the lottery winner of the universe! Just believe God, live a few years of a sinless life, and this Jewish man will be given ALL THE POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH FOR ALL ETERNITY! We should all be so lucky! Nonsense! No mere mortal could EVER fill the shoes of God the Father and be given control (including all judgment of all humanity) of God's universe for all eternity. Jesus Christ was a billion times more than just a mere moral man! More later..........
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
So I am wondering if the simple statement of fact "I and My Father are one" says it all?
COMMENT: Maybe not quit all, but pretty close once we understand all the facts and contexts of that statement.
Is the bond of oneness between the Father and Son such a perfect oneness of mind, that to hear or see Christ is to see or hear the Father, in essence anyway?
COMMENT: Yes, of course (I would leave off the phrase "in essence anyway").
So I'm wondering about the statement in Kings "Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You," isn't this the Father?
COMMENT: I Kings 8:27 does say "God--Elohim" in verse 27, And we know that it is the "LORD--Jehovah" which Moses saw at Siani, therefore this is Jesus and not the Father. Besides, Deut. 10:14 states that the "heaven of heavens" are the "LORD'S thy God," and so again, that is Jesus.
Maybe He can't be brought down into a "shape" or a being,
COMMENT: But then again, maybe HE CAN!
so could it be that Jesus Christ was created to be the image of the Father to meet the need we (humanity) would have to 'see' God? So are we actually seeing the Father through Christ?
COMMENT: There is a problem here not only with tirinitarianism, but with most all other isms as well, if we try to make two Beings (or Persons, although I am not comfortable with the word person as its first definition is "a human being") out of the Father and Son, and that is, if Jesus is God and the Father is God, we then have TWO GODS and the Scriptures are plain that there is but "ONE GOD."
I use to think the word "Elohim" solved the problem, seeing that is plural for "El" which means "God" or the "Deity." After all didn't God (Elohim) say, "Let US...after OUR...." (Gen. 1:26)? Yet, but in Gen. 11 it was "the LORD--Jehovah, Jesus" Who said, "let US go down," not Elohim. Likewise, the Shema of Deut. 6:4 says: "Hear O Israel the LORD thy God is ONE LORD." It doesn't say that the "LORD thy God is one ELOHIM." No, it says "one LORD--YHWH." And YHWH is singular, not plural.
So according to Paul, the One God must be "the Father," not?
Didn't Paul say: "But to us there is but one God, THE FATHER" (I Cor. 8:6)? Yes, but once again, the sentence doesn't end there with a period (.), does it?
If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God, the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." Before everyone shouts "heresy," let me finish my research. What would happen if we were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )? "But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...." But wouldn't that mean then that the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ (the two of Them) are ONE GOD? Yes of course, isn't that what John 10:30 says: "I AND My Father ARE ONE"?! There's much more to this, but I will save it till later.
COMMENT: I believe that Christendom has failed to teach us what it is that God the Father wants and desires FOR HIMSELF. Why did He make a "physical" universe? Was it only to have and bring children into His Kingdom? We really need to reconsider how much was involved in God acquiring the Wisdom necessary to build His universe and create a suitable Family for His Kingdom.
God be with you,
Ray
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Thank you JFK. I have copied and pasted the scriptures you listed and will be reading and re-reading them. I confess that I can not wrap my mind around this subject just yet......BUT.....a very wise friend gave me some great advice that I will share in the hopes that it may help someone else......he told me to: READ AND BELIEVE.....even if you do not yet have the understanding, BELIEVE what is written.....and so, I believe in ONE God..I believe Jesus is our Lord and our God, the express image of the Father.....I still lack a complete understanding of it, but I believe it!....
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[17] "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world?" (Heb. 9:26).
Jesus clearly existed back then.
But we are going to be His brothers. We have to be begotten too. Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit of them that slept(1 Cor 15 :20), the Firstfruit. James says we are a kind of Firstfruits (James 1:18). In Rev. 14, we read that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits. Do you know what it actually says in the Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 “In Firstfruit God created the heaven and earth.”
Who is the Firstfruit? Jesus Christ!
“In Firstfruit, God created the heaven and the earth.”
“In Jesus Christ, God created the heaven and earth.”
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[7] “For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS." If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “And one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of. There it is!
Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why? He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17)
So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
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Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.
Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim.
So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasn’t God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.
So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? It’s the ‘We’ and the ‘Us.’ Elohim is the ’We’ and the ’Us.’ So it’s BOTH!
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;
Who is the “by whom?” Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, that’s why it is Elohim. “In the beginning Elohim…” God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because it’s letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.
There are billions and billions and lots of people up to this date that really cannot understand the Secret of God, or maybe that is His Will to hide for the meantime. To those that given a wisdom and willing to receive the wisdom lucky and grace for them for they were given ahead as planned by God.
There is always a problem when Jesus Christ is mentioned in the creation. People are in instantly have one in mind that Jesus Christ in the flesh that these creations happened.
For those given a wisdom when the creation mentioned and Jesus associated in the creation, it is not Jesus in the flesh but Jesus who is the Word/Jehovah/YHWH that comes in their mind, that is the secret many cannot fathom.
Always remember that, Jesus is the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.