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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: nightmare sasuke on July 05, 2006, 04:11:23 AM
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"And be not in fear, by reason of them that are killing the body,—and, the soul, are not able to kill. But fear, rather, him who is able, both soul and body, to destroy in gehenna" (Mat 10:28, Rotherham)!
The psuche is the conscious being, the sensation of living, the combination of body and spirit. If someone kills another human, they separate the body from the spirit, thus killing the human, who IS a living soul. However, Jesus says man cannot kill a living soul. I don't get it.
How can man not kill the sensation?
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This is from Ray's letter to John Hagee,
Hope it helps
"And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."
Jesus said not to fear those who can "kill," but rather fear Him [Jesus Christ] who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna. The first part of the verse is man's operation, but the second part of the verse is God's. Men have no jurisdiction over the soul. All they can do is kill the body. But God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
Those who teach annihilation rather than eternal punishment use this verse to show that when God destroys, the soul is irretrievable. This, however, is not true. "Destroy" comes from the Greek word Apollumi = FROM-WHOLE-LOOSE, that is, to "lose." The disciples were afraid that they would perish [apollumi] by drowning (Mk. 4:38). The sheep was lost [apollumi] by straying (Lk 15:4). We may destroy [apollumi] a weak saint by our knowledge (I Cor. 8:11). And Christ destroys [apollumi] both body and soul in Gehenna. Never does the Greek word apollumi mean annihilation! Besides destruction is the prelude to SALVATION! All we like sheep have gone astray. To be "lost" is the same Greek word used for "destroy." So it is axiomatic that if an apollumi [LOST] sheep can be SAVED, then certainly an apollumi [DESTROYED] soul can be saved also. Believe God's Word, not man's doctrines.
Have we forgotten Sodom? "And thou, Capernaum, which are exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to the unseen [hades]; for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." And, therefore, it shall be " ... more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee" (Matt. 11:23-24). All it takes is a few miracles from God and He can save anyone-everyone It is so sad that most Christian Clergy don't believe this. I'll give you all the Scriptural proof you need at the end of this letter to show that God Almighty is going to save all His creatures-under the earth, on the earth, and throughout the entirety of the universe-mortals and messengers, sinners and saints, demons and angels-all (Phil. 2:10)!
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
Light, the key word here is "living soul" Hope this helps. Ray maybe needs to make that clearer.
Craig
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
Looks like a typo mistake. I think Ray means to say, the body (flesh), returns to the dust, ground, hades, the grave. Once the spirit returns to God, it's no longer a soul, but only a body of dust which returns to the ground.
Gary
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Craig,
Thanks for your quick response. But, as I look at Genesis I see the Heb. words chay nephesh which were translated living soul 7 other times. And this is my main problem...in those '8 total number of times' it's translated as "living creature" 7 times, but only once is it translated as "living soul" in Gen 2:7.
Also, in the following two verses ""of all flesh"" is included along with "living soul/creature chay/nepheshl" so if the soul is united flesh and spirit as per my first post's question??...I hope you can see my dilemma understanding this teaching.
GEN 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
If you/others here can't help answer this, then clarification from Ray may be indicated as per the new forum rules. I E-mailed before with no response. I assumed that his schedule is too busy to answer every question from every person capable of e-mail, and fully understand that. That's why I've always asked questions here. Questions which I felt were within the former Rules of the forum. But admittedly they were questions based upon my present perspective concerning things which were being discussed.
I honestly don't know yet, who the new rules will allow to stay anymore, myself included. I do believe that I have not been here seeking 'to win'...I feel I've been seeking 'the truth'. And I would hope that motivation would be allowed in any 'Christian' forum. Though I understand the burden you all have as moderators. It is truly a formidable task anywhere, but probably more so here.
Gary,
I was about to post and saw your 'note' had been added. Thanks for the response. But until that 'clarification' is confirmed I guess my question, posed above, is still a worthy one.
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
Answer from Ray
Dear Forum:
Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition. I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components: The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul. Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?" It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it. It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?" We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic. Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit). Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul). Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body. WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
PS At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
I think sheol (the unseen) is the state of the soul being unconscious, more so than a place.
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I guess I need help, from someone here, to explain something in Ray's letter.
Ray (bold and underline in quote is me)Man consists of a body which, when God imparts His spirit to it, becomes a living soul. The soul is the result of the combination of body and spirit. There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body. At death, God takes back His spirit and the "soul" goes to the unseen (or imperceptible). Hades in Greek or Sheol in Hebrew are not geographical locations, but rather a condition.
If the soul is the united combination of spirit/body and "There is "soul" only as long as God's spirit unites with the body" as Ray said. Then how is it that when one dies and the spirit departs the body preturning to God that the soul (which is a "united body/spirit?") can still exist to go anywhere?
Answer from Ray
Dear Forum:
Unfortunately sometimes when speaking we need to make reference to something as if it at a certain location, or has gone to a certain location, or has been retruned from a certain location, when in fact, IT DIDN'T GO OR COME FROM ANYWHERE.
"But God will redeem my soul FROM the power of the grave [Heb: sheol]..." (Psalm 49:15).
"You will not leave My soul IN hell [Gk: hades--unseen, imperceptible]..." (Acts 2:27).
Obviously if David's soul could comr "from" then it could also go "to" sheol.
If Christ's soul was "in" hell, then it must have gone "to" hell unless it was always there.
But sheol and sheol are NOT PLACES, but rather a realm or condition. I used the analogy of a TV to represent the human components: The console or box is the body, the electricty is the spirit, and the picture on the screen is the soul. Pull the plug and where does the picture "GO?" It doesn't technically go or more or change locations at all--it DISAPPEARS at the same place it was once present. You can heat or cool a piece of metal at the same location and never move it. It changes dramatically, but it does "go anywhere."
When a physical body and a spirit are combined we have "soul"--sentient conscieousness. When we separate the body from the spirit this consciousness is no longer there. Well, where did it "GO?" We "say," although it is not technically true, but we say that it "went" to hades (or in Hebrew sheol), but in reality it didn't go anywhere. It just "bacame" imperceptible, and this imperception of the consciousness of man is traditionally in Hebrew said to go to "sheol--the unseen" or in Greek to "hades--the unseen."
I used to have a piece of transpart yellow and blue thin plastic. Hold them side by side and you had one blue (let's let that color represent the body), and one yellow (let's let that one represent the spirit). Now then we have only TWO pieces and TWO colors. But, slide the yellow plastic half way over the blue plastic and we have yellow on one side (spirit), and blue on the other side (body) AND GREEN in the center (soul). Slide them apart and we are back to but two colors, yellow and blue--spirit and body. WHERE did the green (soul) "go?"
It didn't "go" anywhere, it merely ceased to exist. So in that sense it went to the "unseen" or "imperceptible," as that is what hades and sheol mean.
God be with you,
Ray
PS At resurrection God will united "YOUR" spirit to a new body, and the result with be the same "you" that died, but now you will be a living soul with a spiritual body that can never die.
That didn't really answer my question.
Can you not kill a nephesh by breaking the bond between body and spirit? If so, then how come Jesus says only God has the power to kill both soul and body in gehenna?
Last time I checked, a nephesh is a conscious being, and can be killed.
Is there a difference between killing a nephesh and separating body and spirit or are they the same? I would think if you made a "living soul" no longer "living" then you have killed the "living soul."
After all, it is said the "SOUL" that sins will die. Yet, Jesus is saying man has not the power to kill our "souls." I don't get it.
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Man only has a temporal power in this age, I believe Jesus was speaking of fearing Him who is eternal and who subjects all things versus fearing them who can only temporarily kill the body/soul.
Remember the Lake of Fire is the second death, no man has any power over whether or not he will be there after the judgement.
Do you think that Jesus was saying don't fear those who can wield death to you now, fear Him who can subject you to the second death?
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Man only has a temporal power in this age, I believe Jesus was speaking of fearing Him who is eternal and who subjects all things versus fearing them who can only temporarily kill the body/soul.
Remember the Lake of Fire is the second death, no man has any power over whether or not he will be there after the judgement.
Do you think that Jesus was saying don't fear those who can wield death to you now, fear Him who can subject you to the second death?
He didn't say they can wield death to our souls now, though, that's the point! If the nephesh that sins dies, then how come as Jesus said, man cannot kill it?
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Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.
Do you think these Words have a spiritual implication or just the the physical?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power but they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Christ was speaking of the second death, not the first.
Joe
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Hebrews 9:27 And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement.
Do you think these Words have a spiritual implication or just the the physical?
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power but they shall be the priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Christ was speaking of the second death, not the first.
Joe
After resurrection, how will this people have the power to kill our body, but at the same time, not the power to kill our soul?
After resurrection, they can kill our body? They can kill our body with the second death?
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Do not be afraid of the first death (all are appointed to die once), fear Him who has power over the second death (Lake of Fire). These Words are spiritual not literal. No man can send you to, or free you from the second death.
Joe
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nightmare,
There are two differnt words used there.
I know that it says that man cannot "kill" the soul and I guess this is really what you are asking about, right?
But in the latter part of that verse it changes from "kill" to "destroy" (when it talks about what God is "able" to do to both body and soul). This is the same words used for "perish/ed", "lost" (as in the "lost sheep" that Christ came to save).
Certainly men can "kill" (but cannot "restore", as God can right?).
So I think there is more to that verse than just 'that'. It's not just about "killing".... it is as opposed to "destroying"
Chrissie
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Do not be afraid of the first death (all are appointed to die once), fear Him who has power over the second death (Lake of Fire). These Words are spiritual not literal. No man can send you to, or free you from the second death.
Joe
Jesus said that man cannot kill the soul, though. How? When you die the first death (all are appointed to die once) the nephesh dies!
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No he didn't say "kill" the soul. He said "kill" the body and "appolumi" (destroy or lose) the soul. There is much more implied with the word apollumi than kill which is why it is so fascinating that Jesus used the word kill for one and destroy/lose for the other.
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nightmare,
There are two differnt words used there.
I know that it says that man cannot "kill" the soul and I guess this is really what you are asking about, right?
But in the latter part of that verse it changes from "kill" to "destroy" (when it talks about what God is "able" to do to both body and soul). This is the same words used for "perish/ed", "lost" (as in the "lost sheep" that Christ came to save).
Certainly men can "kill" (but cannot "restore", as God can right?).
So I think there is more to that verse than just 'that'. It's not just about "killing".... it is as opposed to "destroying"
Chrissie
However, Jesus "certainly" says "men" cannot "kill" the soul.
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No he didn't say "kill" the soul. He said "kill" the body and "appolumi" (destroy or lose) the soul. There is much more implied with the word apollumi than kill which is why it is so fascinating that Jesus used the word kill for one and destroy/lose for the other.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Rev 21:8 But the fearful and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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You all are missing my point. In my mind, Jesus is contradicting the Scriptures. Nephesh die, yet Jesus says man cannot kill a nephesh.
If it refers to judgment, then how can men have the power to kill the body in judgment?
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That is the point, don't be fearful of men who can kill you/me now, fear Him who can cast you into The Lake of Fire, no man has power over that, the second death, only God does.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
If we were to look at the above verses as strictly physical you could say Jesus was contradicting Himself here as well.
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Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Is this necessarily a “physical” death spoken of here?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did Adam die a physical death?
Are we not all “dead” because of sin?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
As Joe said.... looking at the spiritual here in order to see past the "contradiction".
Blessings,
Chrissie
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That is the point, don't be fearful of men who can kill you/me now, fear Him who can cast you into The Lake of Fire, no man has power over that, the second death, only God does.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
If we were to look at the above verses as strictly physical you could say Jesus was contradicting Himself here as well.
According to Jesus, man cannot kill me, a living soul, now. That's my problem with the verse.
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Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Is this necessarily a “physical” death spoken of here?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did Adam die a physical death?
Are we not all “dead” because of sin?
Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
As Joe said.... looking at the spiritual here in order to see past the "contradiction".
Blessings,
Chrissie
CLV translates Gen 2:17 differently.
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CLV translates Gen 2:17 differently.
Yes, I know. Was Adam created immortal? Or was he already dying? If he was not created immortal and was already dying, then is the penalty for sin a physical death?
It is appointed to men ONCE to die and then judgment. How does that reconcile with the fact that judgment had begun at the house of God (among those who are physically alive, right?)? So this cannot be a physical death right? Did Paul not "die" (he said he died daily) though he was physically alive? Is it not through 'death' that we attain LIFE?
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone:
but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:[/list]
God's words are spirit and they are life. Right?
Maybe I'm just adding to the confusion. Sorry I won't say any more. :-X
Chrissie
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Nightmare,
I'm not going to say too much, because I see man as spirit, soul, and body, and if I'm wrong I need to change. But since Ray has commented let me weigh in with this small bit addressing his post, since I think I see what you're saying.
Using Ray's teaching and analogy, how can one kill the TV/body and not kill the picture/soul. Not just turn the TV off mind you, which is spirit anyway, but 'kill' the TV. Using Ray's definition of soul I think I'm being fair in saying that the soul is the brain at work.
MAT 10:28 And fear not them which kill/to destroy the body, but are not able to kill/to destroy the soul/psuche: but rather fear him which is able to destroy/to destroy fully both soul and body in hell.
LUK 9:24 For whosoever will save his life/psuche/soul shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life/psuche/soul for my sake, the same shall save it.
LUK 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life/psuche/soul shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life/psuche/soul shall preserve it.
0615 apokteino: to kill outright; fig. to destroy
0622 apollumi: to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.
Hopfully this helps clarify what you're saying. This thread has moved a bunch since my last post and I could address several issues with questions but I'm still watching the 'new rules' for parameters. I am bound as a believer to the authority of this forum and would like to remain welcome. :)
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Nightmare,
This is my understanding of what Jesus is saying. Do not fear those that can kill the body ( but remember when the body dies, it is seperated from the Spirit, therefore the soul also dies, and the Spirit, or God's breath of life returns back to Him) but fear Him who can Destroy both body and Soul in Gehenna. I understand that to mean, fear Him who has the power to destroy both Soul and body ( a spirit needs a body to become a living soul) into The Lake of Fire. So I don't think Jesus meant those who can not kill the soul as in those who can not literally kill the soul, I think the proper word Destroy is used and has reference to those who can not destroy the soul in the Lake of Fire. Because, Yes God has power to destroy a soul, but why would that be any different than what man can do? If it's talking about actually killing a soul? That's why I believe it is talking about being cast into The Lake of Fire, or casting into the lake of Fire which men obviosuly can not do. Just my understanding of it. Really not saying I'm right and you're wrong, and not trying to argue either.
Hope that makes sense,
Sorin
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Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?
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Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?
Good points Sorin,
Or we can use the light bulb analogy, the light bulb = body, the electricity = spirit (breath of life) when electricity enters the bulb we have light (life) when the switch is turned off the electricity is back with the power company and the bulb is dark (death). We have a bulb and electricity which when combined produces light but if you remove either the bulb or the power source you have darkness.
Yes, I see Jesus Words as spiritual more than physical as the first death is
"sleep" until the resurrection, whether it be the glorious 1st or to the Lake of Fire (2nd).
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That's a good analogy Joe. How home I didn't think of it, seeing as I'm an electrician and all. :lol:
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dang that is a good analogy, im gonna use it, thanks!!1
peace
euty, um er i mean chumkin, dang chuckt
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Hello,
I've been doing a study on body, soul and spirit and among many interesting things I've found are these scriptures.
Lev 21:11 (CLV)
nor to any dead soul shall he enter; even for his father or for his mother he shall not defile himself.
Num 6:6 (CLV)
All the days of his sequestration to Yahweh he shall not come near a dead soul.
Num 6:11 (CLV)
The priest will offer one for a sin offering and one for an ascent offering, and he will make a propitiatory shelter over him because of that which he had sinned concerning the dead soul. Then he will hallow his head on that day.
I did not realize a soul could be dead until seeing these.
Also in the NT the Greek noun for soul is psuchē (strongs # G5590). What I found interesting is the adjective form of the word psuchikos (strongs # G5591). It only appears 7 times in the NT. Check out its occurrences from the KJV and then from the CLV. The KJV hides it.
1Co 2:14 (KJV)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 (CLV)
Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Co 15:44 (KJV)
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:44 (CLV)
It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
1Co 15:46 (KJV)
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:46 (CLV)
But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
Jam 3:15 (KJV)
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:15 (CLV)
This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
Jud 1:19 (KJV)
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:19 (CLV)
These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."
I just found it very interesting how the "soulish" seems to be connected with the physical/flesh.
Deedle :)
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Post# 28
Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?
Makes sense to me. Who was this man that became a living soul? It doesn't say and the 'spirit and body' became a living soul, it says man became (future tense) a living soul. Using Ray's soul definiton of "sentiment consciousness" and looking those definitons up in Websters we're not just talking about a brain which is only functioning as an programmed computer mechanically operating a physical system. Soul transends into a realm beyond that. An entity which has a function separate from spirit and body. And it is that individual entity of man which follows after the lust of the flesh or the lust of the spirit.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit (lusteth) against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What 'determines' being led of the Sspirit? Is it a choice which must come from the "soul/conscious sentiment". And is that more than than just the two opposing entities of a combined spirit and body/brain?
If it isn't a separate entity how do you explain the following verses? I know I've asked about these repeatedly because what few answers that have been given don't work for me.
1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
If soul is merely a combination of two, why is it mentioned it in conjunction, and why worry about 'the picture' on TV if it doesn't have it's own separate....whatever...which determines...whatever? What determines the 'signal' we listen or turn to?
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Lightseeker, I am just stretching here a bit, but maybe this can shed some light.
The two verses you quoted were in the NT and speaking to believers. True believers have what in them?...the Holy Spirit.
This Spirit, which is the Word of God, the Comforter, Christ in us, is sharper than any two edged sword, able divide asunder, to discern the intents of our heart.
Not sure if this is a help. Yet, before Christ came to be in us, we were a soul composed of body and spirit, which is a soul. Then, upon Christs Spirit coming in us, now we are more than what is spoken in Genesis. That Spirit, that Word, is the Light, which is the very God of peace, which sanctifies us.
G1515
εἰρήνη
eirēnē
i-rah'-nay
Probably from a primary verb εἴρω eirō (to join); peace (literally or figuratively); by implication prosperity: - one, peace, quietness, rest, + set at one again.
G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
This oneness, with Him in us and us in Him, and us in each other, is the greatest lesson we can learn if this life. Let us be at peace with a holyness, from Him in the oneness that is between God and us, personally, towards a oneness in each other. Maybe this is what these verses speak of. Hope this helps, it helped me just looking them up. 8)
God bless,
Gary
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Hello,
I've been doing a study on body, soul and spirit and among many interesting things I've found are these scriptures.
Lev 21:11 (CLV)
nor to any dead soul shall he enter; even for his father or for his mother he shall not defile himself.
Num 6:6 (CLV)
All the days of his sequestration to Yahweh he shall not come near a dead soul.
Num 6:11 (CLV)
The priest will offer one for a sin offering and one for an ascent offering, and he will make a propitiatory shelter over him because of that which he had sinned concerning the dead soul. Then he will hallow his head on that day.
I did not realize a soul could be dead until seeing these.
Also in the NT the Greek noun for soul is psuchē (strongs # G5590). What I found interesting is the adjective form of the word psuchikos (strongs # G5591). It only appears 7 times in the NT. Check out its occurrences from the KJV and then from the CLV. The KJV hides it.
1Co 2:14 (KJV)
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 (CLV)
Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."
1Co 15:44 (KJV)
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:44 (CLV)
It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also.
1Co 15:46 (KJV)
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:46 (CLV)
But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
Jam 3:15 (KJV)
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:15 (CLV)
This is not the wisdom coming down from above, but terrestrial, soulish, demoniacal. "
Jud 1:19 (KJV)
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Jud 1:19 (CLV)
These are those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit."
I just found it very interesting how the "soulish" seems to be connected with the physical/flesh.
Deedle :)
"Soulish" is probably connected with the conscious existance of carnal man, which is against God, when separated from God's Holy Spirit.
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I believe this underlines what Gary (Orion77) wrote in regard to what leads us to lose the flesh and live in spirit, it is most definitely not man's "soul."
GOD PREDETERMINES WHO GETS SAVED AND WHEN
"Now we are aware that God [Who? GOD. Men—ourselves? NO—GOD] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28-30, Concordant Literal New Testament).
It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.
It is GOD who does the calling:
"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).
It is GOD who does the dragging:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).
It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:
"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
Eventually this will include all mankind:
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).
And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:
"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).
And let’s not forget:
"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b).
The entire article can be read @;
http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
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Post# 28
Also, if we consist of Spirit, body, and Soul (as three seperate entities)then verses like "...and God breathed into his nostrils the Breath of life (Spirit) and the men BECAME a living soul" wouldn't make sense, mentions nothing of God adding a soul ( as a seperate entity) to the mix. Just like you turn on your tv, the picture and sound BECAME (soul's emotions, memories...) on the screen. No?
Makes sense to me. Who was this man that became a living soul? It doesn't say and the 'spirit and body' became a living soul, it says man became (future tense) a living soul. Using Ray's soul definiton of "sentiment consciousness" and looking those definitons up in Websters we're not just talking about a brain which is only functioning as an programmed computer mechanically operating a physical system. Soul transends into a realm beyond that. An entity which has a function separate from spirit and body. And it is that individual entity of man which follows after the lust of the flesh or the lust of the spirit.
GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit (lusteth) against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
What 'determines' being led of the Sspirit? Is it a choice which must come from the "soul/conscious sentiment". And is that more than than just the two opposing entities of a combined spirit and body/brain?
If it isn't a separate entity how do you explain the following verses? I know I've asked about these repeatedly because what few answers that have been given don't work for me.
1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
HEB 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body parts), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
If soul is merely a combination of two, why is it mentioned it in conjunction, and why worry about 'the picture' on TV if it doesn't have it's own separate....whatever...which determines...whatever? What determines the 'signal' we listen or turn to?
Here's a quote from my paper:
While man can be said to have a nephesh—that is, sensation or life—man does not have a ghost-like third component floating within his body. Nephesh is the result, but is not a component. It is important to realize that soul and spirit should not be considered synonymous. Some argue, however, that man has an eternally existing third component within his body and many call this component a soul. However, as shown, a soul is the combination of body and spirit, and is not a third component. Nevertheless, detractors try to prove their misconstrued opinion by quoting 1 Thessalonians 5:23, in which body, soul, and spirit are all used in the same verse.
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul [psuche] and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Th 5:23, KJV).
However, this in no way disproves the fact that man is a soul—one participating in the human experience and sensation of life. For the word translated soul in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is the Greek word psuche, which, in fact, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word nephesh. For example, the LXX translates nephesh in Genesis 2:7 with the Greek word psuche, the very word used in 1 Thessalonians 5:23:
"και επλασεν ο θεος τον ανθρωπον χουν απο της γης και ενεφυσησεν εις το προσωπον αυτου πνοην ζωης και εγενετο ο ανθρωπος εις ψυχην ζωσαν" (Gen 2:7, Septuagint).
In other words, psuche carries the same meaning as the Hebrew word nephesh. So what was Paul praying? He was basically praying that the reader's spirit (breath), the combination of the body and spirit resulting in the experience and sensation of life—the soul, psuche, or nephesh (the conscious being)—and the spirit will remain blameless unto the coming of Jesus Christ, most likely as a result of abstaining from both physical and spiritual fornication.
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
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Deedle,
That was quite interesting. hmm...
Nightmare,
That was well said indeed. And I agree.
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think. You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think. You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
I personally think that the soul and carnal mind coexist together, and they only exist in the flesh (flesh plus spirit), and I don't think we are resurrected a soul. 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, not a soul.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Is there scripture that says we will be resurrected an immortal soul??? Comparing satan to our resurrected state i don't think is a good comparison, satan never was resurrected, and I don't think satan is an immortal soul.
I just struggle with concept of a carnal soul after the resurrection. I don't think there is scripture to back it up. If there is, please let me know. thanks.
To be carnally minded is death. Are we resurrected into a state of death???
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orion77
The two verses you quoted were in the NT and speaking to believers. True believers have what in them?...the Holy Spirit.
Scripture says we have a born again spirit in John 3. Is that The Holy Spirit? I don't think so because Romans says "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit...". The assumption that 'our born again spirit' is 'a holy spirit' is my present view. Being born again is like the prodigal son's father crying, "This my son was dead but now is alive." That son was never really 'dead' by our definition of dead and neither is our spirit dead until rebirth from above. A rebirth isn't a resurrection. I think scripture states our spirit in our body and The Spirit is in the corporate body and upon each of us as individual. But that's digressing from the thread.
Not sure if this is a help. Yet, before Christ came to be in us, we were a soul composed of body and spirit, which is a soul. Then, upon Christs Spirit coming in us, now we are more than what is spoken in Genesis. That Spirit, that Word, is the Light, which is the very God of peace, which sanctifies us.
What about the OT people who had the spirit of Christ in them...before Jesus came/died? Were they "more than what is spoken of in Genesis" too?
This oneness, with Him in us and us in Him, and us in each other, is the greatest lesson we can learn if this life. Let us be at peace with a holyness, from Him in the oneness that is between God and us, personally, towards a oneness in each other. Maybe this is what these verses speak of. Hope this helps, it helped me just looking them up.
Great last paragraph. Majoring on the major IMO. But.... ;)....one slight squirm for me. "Onenes with Him in us and us in Him" is right on with me. But where are you coming from concerning "us in each other"? That's a new one for me.
Nightmare,
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think.
Jesus manifested a glorified body on the mount of transfiguration and then died...eg capable of death...eg mortal.
COL 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Wasn't Satan in either 'heaven or earth' in the above scripture? So is he not also reconciled?
You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
As concerning Satan being immortally carnal...is He not part of what will be made new if reconciled?
REV 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.
Rocky,
Good thoughts...I think. ;D
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think. You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
I personally think that the soul and carnal mind coexist together, and they only exist in the flesh (flesh plus spirit), and I don't think we are resurrected a soul. 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, not a soul.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Is there scripture that says we will be resurrected an immortal soul??? Comparing satan to our resurrected state i don't think is a good comparison, satan never was resurrected, and I don't think satan is an immortal soul.
I just struggle with concept of a carnal soul after the resurrection. I don't think there is scripture to back it up. If there is, please let me know. thanks.
To be carnally minded is death. Are we resurrected into a state of death???
You could argue that since a soul = spirit + (fleshy) body, that resurrected bodies are not living souls, because they are not composed of fleshy bodies, but spiritual bodies.
I don't know.
We're not spirits alone, though, we have spiritual bodies.
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think. You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
I personally think that the soul and carnal mind coexist together, and they only exist in the flesh (flesh plus spirit), and I don't think we are resurrected a soul. 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, not a soul.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Is there scripture that says we will be resurrected an immortal soul??? Comparing satan to our resurrected state i don't think is a good comparison, satan never was resurrected, and I don't think satan is an immortal soul.
I just struggle with concept of a carnal soul after the resurrection. I don't think there is scripture to back it up. If there is, please let me know. thanks.
To be carnally minded is death. Are we resurrected into a state of death???
I see what you're saying. You make good points.
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Hello Lightseeker,
The whole chapter of John 17 speaks of this oneness. Here is a few of them:
(Joh 17:21) that all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Joh 17:22) And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One:
(Joh 17:23) I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in one; and that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them, even as You loved Me.
I believe it was chuckt who brought this chapter up in a past thread. The greatest prayer ever. That chapter is an awesome read. 8)
God bless,
Gary
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So what goes into the Lake of Fire?? Soul??
Spirit + (spiritual) body = (glorified immortal) soul, goes into the lake of fire.
Here is what i struggle with, Spirit (capitalized, meaning Holy Spirit) plus a spiritual body = glorified immortal soul goes into lof, but yet is carnal??? makes no sense to me. a Carnal glorified immortal soul???
The carnal mind is death. Is not the lof, the death of death??? so seems to me the carnal mind has to be in LOF
The bodies the sinners are resurrected in are immortal, that's what glorified means, I think. You can be immortally carnal, look at Satan.
I personally think that the soul and carnal mind coexist together, and they only exist in the flesh (flesh plus spirit), and I don't think we are resurrected a soul. 2nd Adam is a life giving spirit, not a soul.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Is there scripture that says we will be resurrected an immortal soul??? Comparing satan to our resurrected state i don't think is a good comparison, satan never was resurrected, and I don't think satan is an immortal soul.
I just struggle with concept of a carnal soul after the resurrection. I don't think there is scripture to back it up. If there is, please let me know. thanks.
To be carnally minded is death. Are we resurrected into a state of death???
You could argue that since a soul = spirit + (fleshy) body, that resurrected bodies are not living souls, because they are not composed of fleshy bodies, but spiritual bodies.
I don't know.
We're not spirits alone, though, we have spiritual bodies.
A few more questions i'm trying to sort out, related to spirit, soul, flesh; and body. Something i've been thinking about and trying to understand is the raised spiritual body. Do we each get our own spiritual body, or is there only one spiritual body, and we are a member of it???
Ephesians 1:22-23, "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way."
1 Corinthians 12:27-28 also says, "Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
So is their only one spiritual body, Christ, and we being a member of that body. Or at a later time (at the resurrection), are we separated from the body of Christ, and given our own glorified body???
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
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Hello Lightseeker,
The whole chapter of John 17 speaks of this oneness. Here is a few of them:
(Joh 17:21) that all may be one, as You are in Me, Father, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Joh 17:22) And I have given them the glory which You have given Me, that they may be one, as We are One:
(Joh 17:23) I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in one; and that the world may know that You sent Me and loved them, even as You loved Me.
I see where you're coming from scripturally and see why you're saying it. I guess it's still a little weak for me to embrace though. Not saying it's wrong mind you, just not sure I see it that way and it isn't something to fuss over IMO. Thanks for your scriptural response though bro. ;D
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Rocky,
Regarding resurrection as an immortal soul, would these scriptures help clarify for you?:
1 Cor. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
2 Tim. 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Grace be with you,
Jennifer
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What it seems that you are asking is can God kill the soul and spirit or can God destroy somone beyond bringing them back to concousness, I think he can if thats what he wants to do, He is God,He can do what He wants I supose,but His haveing the ability to destroy the soul forever does not mean that he wills to do that.What this verse says to me is fear God because of His great power,I dont think Jesus ment for us to go deep into the soul and spirit thing,but to me he is simply saying FEAR GOD! NOT MAN.somtimes we want the hidden knowedge so bad we miss the point the scipture is making,heres a way to say it if someone comes to kill this fleshly body dont fear them.
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I totaly missed the point here,which proves you should never post when noding off........Jerry