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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Mzantsi on April 04, 2023, 02:37:12 PM
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Isa 60:5 NET Then you will look and smile, you will be excited and your heart will swell with pride. For the riches of distant lands will belong to you and the wealth of nations will come to you.
Isa 60:11 NET Your gates will remain open at all times; they will not be shut during the day or at night, so that the wealth of nations may be delivered, with their kings leading the way.
Isa 60:12 NET Indeed, nations or kingdoms that do not serve you will perish; such nations will be totally destroyed.
Isa 60:14 NET The children of your oppressors will come bowing to you; all who treated you with disrespect will bow down at your feet. They will call you, ‘The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.’
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Jn 9;25 where I was blind now I see
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John 17:1-24
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
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John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
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Rev. 21:4-5
"And he will wipe away every tear out of their eyes, and death, shall be no more, and grief and outcry and pain shall be no more: the first things, have passed away.
And he that was sitting upon the throne said—Lo! I make all things new. And he saith—Write! because these words are, faithful and true.
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1 Kings 18:24…….. then you will invoke the name of your god, and I will
call upon the name of the Lord.The God who responds with fire will demonstrate
that He is the true God. All the people responded , this will be a fair test. ( NET)
Exo. 22:20…. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord shall be devoted to destruction. ( a law against apostasy)
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Well, this is Romans 9, or part of it and I love it so much because it tells me to not doubt the sovereignty
of God. There is no point in railing against people who are deceived because God Himself has not chosen to enlighten them yet!
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Just a thought that came to me. Thoughts?
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Just a thought that came to me. Thoughts?
This isn't about physical countries on Earth or science, technology, and sports. This is for God's Israel, his chosen, and the blessings are spiritual.
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Remember we ALSO gonna inherit the PHYSICAL earth,as well as the PHYSICAL wealth of other PHYSICAL nations. We will also have a PHYSICAL country of our own IF I am interpreting this verse correctly:
Jer 23:3 (ISV) “I’ll gather the remnant of my flock from all the countries where I’ve driven them, and bring them back to their pasture where they’ll be fruitful and increase in numbers.
Then we have the wealth:
Isa 60:5 NET Then you will look and smile, you will be excited and your heart will swell with pride. For the riches of distant lands will belong to you and the WEALTH of nations will come to you.
Thoughts?
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Not that we WILL be the best country, but we WAS. Ray explained Deu 28:1-3 in his towers paper.
As I said in the other thread - I think America is currently going through the second half of Deu 28 (starting from v15).
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Not that we WILL be the best country, but we WAS. Ray explained Deu 28:1-3 in his towers paper.
As I said in the other thread - I think America is currently going through the second half of Deu 28 (starting from v15).
Why do you assume the question/comment was about the USA?
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Not that we WILL be the best country, but we WAS. Ray explained Deu 28:1-3 in his towers paper.
As I said in the other thread - I think America is currently going through the second half of Deu 28 (starting from v15).
I have to say, I am confused by this part of Ray's Tower paper:
"And it shall come to pass, if you shall hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command you this day, that the Lord your God will set you on high ABOVE ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH.
And all these blessings shall come on you, and overtake you, if you shall hearken unto the voice of the lord your God. Blessed shall you be IN THE CITY..." (Deut. 28:1-3).
Israel was NEVER "...on high above all nations of the earth !" And why was that? Because Israel could not "hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord." Their greatest glory was under the rule of Solomon who turned into one of the worst idolaters in Israel's history. Oh they meant well:
"And ALL the people answered together and said, ALL that the Lord has spoken WE WILL DO. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord" (Exodus 19:8).
But before the ink was even dry on the paper of their promise, Moses told Israel this:
"Gather unto me [Moses] all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.
For I know that after my death you will UTTERLY CORRUPT YOURSELVES, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because you will do evil in the sight of the lord, to provoke Him to anger through the works of your hands"
(Deut. 31:29).
So, if ancient Israel, historic Israel, and today's State of Israel, was not and is not, "above all nations of the earth," then who is above all?
America is, and New York City is the "center" of this Nations great power and wealth.
How can America be "on high above all nations of the earth" if it didn't “hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe and to do all His commandments”? Since America’s inception, it has been fighting wars, murdering and enslaving people, and teaching false doctrines. God plucked me out of the world in 2004, and it has only been within the last five years that I have begun to “hearken diligently" with all my heart and with all my soul to observe and do all his commandments.
Is not this the nation above all nations on earth:
1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
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Ralph, I disagree about the blessings being exclusively spiritual. Don't you think it is a blessing to have enough food to eat, and a place to live (even if it is New York ;))? There are numerous verses in the Bible which show that things such as children and food are blessings from God. Here are just two:
Gen. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
2 Chronicles 31:10 And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the Lord hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.
I agree with Ray that America is the Israel of today. It is popular to criticize America, but it clearly was founded as a Christian nation, with founding documents heavily influenced by biblical moral principles; and not coincidentally, it became the most prosperous nation (the most "blessed," you could say), as well as the most advanced and accomplished in many ways.
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Ralph,
Was king David a man of war? (1 Samuel 16:18)
Did he kill/murder people?
Did he sin against the Lord?
Did God still bless him abundantly?
Ray asked this question in the paper:
Does the fact that America is the greatest defender and proponent of Christianity in the
world have anything to do with the fact that it is also at the very center of the world's
trade and wealth?
You can draw your own conclusion, but at the end of the paper, he also wrote:
There was a time when there was more right with America than there was wrong with
America, but that can no longer honestly be said. I love this country, and my roots here are
as deep as anyone's. On my great grandmother's side, Joris Jansen De Rapalje and
Catelyntje Jeronimus Trico De Ralphaje are my great, great, great, great, great, great, great,
great, great grandfather and grandmother.
Ray obviously didn't think America was that bad all the time, God did bless America with wealth and put America high over all the nations of the earth. Wall Street is still the world’s #1 financial center (for now).
Some statistics from 2010:
The United States has the largest Christian population in the world in 2010
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country)
In 200-year tradition, most Christian missionaries are American.
The United States sent out 127,000 of the world’s estimated 400,000 missionaries abroad in 2010, according to Todd Johnson, director of the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in Massachusetts.
(https://www.reuters.com/article/us-missionary-massachusetts/in-200-year-tradition-most-christian-missionaries-are-american-idUSTRE81J0ZD20120220)
Phil 1:18 What then? only that in every way, falsely or truly, the preaching of Christ goes on; and in this I am glad, and will be glad.
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On a side note, I just think it's funny that Ray mentioned this year (2023) in the paper:
In just a few short years it will be 2023, exactly FOUR HUNDRED YEARS since Joris and
Catelyntje sailed to America to find freedom. That's a long time.
Is this a sign or what? ;D
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Ralph, I disagree about the blessings being exclusively spiritual. Don't you think it is a blessing to have enough food to eat, and a place to live (even if it is New York ;))? There are numerous verses in the Bible which show that things such as children and food are blessings from God. Here are just two:
Gen. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
2 Chronicles 31:10 And Azariah the chief priest of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the Lord hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store.
I agree with Ray that America is the Israel of today. It is popular to criticize America, but it clearly was founded as a Christian nation, with founding documents heavily influenced by biblical moral principles; and not coincidentally, it became the most prosperous nation (the most "blessed," you could say), as well as the most advanced and accomplished in many ways.
I agree with you, Extol. I apologize. I should have made this clear. I am not very good at this. I don't believe blessings are "exclusively" spiritual in nature. When I say blessings are spiritual, I mean to say they are paramount. They are the eternal blessings of God. Of course, God gives us physical blessings while in this physical plane of existence. I have access to the word of God, a beautiful child, a fridge filled with food, clean water, a warm bed to sleep in, internet access, electricity, transportation, etc., and I take none of that for granted.
With regards to America. I'll ask again: How can America be "on high above all nations of the earth" if it didn't “hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord your God, to observe and to do all His commandments”? Sure, it claimed to be a Christian nation, yearning to be free while enslaving people that were also yearning to be free. Sure, it was founded on moral principles while hating and killing its enemies. Am I missing something here? I love America and am very thankful to have been born and raised here, but I am honestly confused and would like clarification.
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Ralph,
Reread your last paragraph and then read what Ray wrote.
Ray wrote ,,, Israel was never on high above all the nations of the earth!
And why was that? Because ISRAEL could not hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord, not America.
So if ancient Israel , historic Israel and todays state of Israel , was not and is not above all the nations of the earth , then who is above all?
America is and NYC is the centre of this nations great power and wealth.
But because we did not consider God to be the spiritual foundation of our success
and prosperity, God brought down those towers, just as He will bring down this nation, if we do not all likewise repent.
This scripture Luke 18:8 Jesus asks , when He returns to the earth will He find
faith. Ray said He will find very little.
But,, the good news is , when His judgements are in the earth , the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness. ( Praise our beautiful Lord Jesus)
Oh and let’s not forget another Israel, the Israel of God, the Elect.
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Ralph,
I would argue America did hearken diligently. From the Pilgrims (early 1600s) to the Founding Fathers, the writings and laws are steeped in Scripture. There are many writings that talk specifically about coming to America to advance the kingdom of God. Almost all the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were Christian. Almost all were anti-slavery, even the ones that owned slaves until death. (Thomas Jefferson, for example, wanted to free his slaves but was prohibited from doing so by Virginia law, because he was in debt and had inherited the slaves.) I disagree with Ray's statement "there is no reason for taking another's life"... I don't believe killing in war is necessarily hatred or murder.
We shouldn't take too literally the phrase "observe and do ALL" of God's commandments...because nobody has done that. God has always blessed his people--whether Israel, Judah, or America--when there is general obedience to his law, from the leadership down. This doesn't mean everything and everyone were perfect during those times of blessing (which is what a literal rendering would imply.) We're still in the flesh, and as long as we are, there is going to be sin, war, and death...even in the countries that have a religious and moral foundation.
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We also have:
Deu 28:1 ISV “Indeed, if you diligently obey the LORD your God to carry out all his commands that I’m giving you today, then the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations of the earth.
Comment:
It appears we will be the BEST country of all in terms science,technology,sports,music and the likes.
Not that we WILL be the best country, but we WAS. Ray explained Deu 28:1-3 in his towers paper.
As I said in the other thread - I think America is currently going through the second half of Deu 28 (starting from v15).
Why do you assume the question/comment was about the USA?
Sorry Dave, I missed your post.
Because Mzantsi asked about Deu 28:1, and Ray did talk about it in his paper, he said it's about the USA.
Maybe Mzantsi had something else in mind?
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Ralph,
I would argue America did hearken diligently. From the Pilgrims (early 1600s) to the Founding Fathers, the writings and laws are steeped in Scripture. There are many writings that talk specifically about coming to America to advance the kingdom of God. Almost all the signers of the Declaration and Constitution were Christian. Almost all were anti-slavery, even the ones that owned slaves until death. (Thomas Jefferson, for example, wanted to free his slaves but was prohibited from doing so by Virginia law, because he was in debt and had inherited the slaves.) I disagree with Ray's statement "there is no reason for taking another's life"... I don't believe killing in war is necessarily hatred or murder.
We shouldn't take too literally the phrase "observe and do ALL" of God's commandments...because nobody has done that. God has always blessed his people--whether Israel, Judah, or America--when there is general obedience to his law, from the leadership down. This doesn't mean everything and everyone were perfect during those times of blessing (which is what a literal rendering would imply.) We're still in the flesh, and as long as we are, there is going to be sin, war, and death...even in the countries that have a religious and moral foundation.
Very well stated Jesse, I agree in all points.
What were the reasonable slave owners to do with their people, turn them out into open society with no protection under common law or means of survival? Solutions to long term human failures are not as simple as just stop.
There needs to be a well thought out process that the whole nation agrees with before sending your dependents out into the world to fend for themselves.
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Regarding killing in war, most soldiers had to be mentally conditioned to go against their natural resistance to killing their fellow man.
As was stated by one writer, "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." -G. K. Chesterton
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Is not this the nation above all nations on earth:
1 Peter 2:9
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Yes, yes they are. If they aren't now, they will most definitely be later. I'm as confused as you when it comes to the literalness of prophecy. But we shouldn't be surprised if the new wine bursts when it is put into old wine skins.
If the USA is the literal physical benefactor of that prophecy in Deuteronomy, then the USA does it for a perishable crown where moth and rust eats. Especially if Ray thought the USA would fall for their subsequent unbelief, just like physical Israel.
Anyhow, check this parable for confirmation of what you know to be true, spiritually speaking.
Mat 21:33 "Listen to another parable: There was a man, a landowner, who planted a vineyard, put a fence around it, dug a winepress in it, and built a watchtower. He leased it to tenant farmers and went away.
Mat 21:34 When the grape harvest drew near, he sent his slaves to the farmers to collect his fruit.
Mat 21:35 But the farmers took his slaves, beat one, killed another, and stoned a third.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other slaves, more than the first group, and they did the same to them.
Mat 21:37 Finally, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.
Mat 21:38 "But when the tenant farmers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance!'
Mat 21:39 So they seized him and threw him out of the vineyard, and killed him.
Mat 21:40 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers?"
Mat 21:41 "He will completely destroy those terrible men," they told Him, "and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This came from the Lord and is wonderful in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit.
Mat 21:44 [Whoever falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder!]"
Mat 21:45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they knew He was speaking about them.
Didn't God tell the Israelites through Moses that if they didn't obey Him, He would strike them with plagues, give everything they had to another nation and destroy them?
Deu 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
Deu 28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
It doesn't end there because unbelieving Israel represents someone else.
Deu 28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Well, you get the idea. I'm sure you know that New Jerusalem is the true spiritual heir that lasts.
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I can understand that the USA is a TYPE of physical Israel (though from my reading, that isn't much of a compliment). This TYPE has existed from the beginnings of Christendom and various nations have shared it--from Rome, to the Holy Roman Empire, to Spain, and the rest of the large nations of Europe including Portugal, France, The Netherlands, Russia (each of who had some claim to being NUMERO UNO at some point) and until very recently (in historic terms) the UK, who in it's day was NUMBER ONE and didn't pass that baton upon the founding of the United States but retained it until at least WWI. Every one of them claimed to be "advancing the Kingdom" even as they warred with each other. All with no less a claim to belonging to Christendom than the USA.
And whether by missionaries or warfare (or both) preached Christ, enslaved, ministered to, annihilated, rescued, and robbed those who were already here and those who could be forcefully brought here in the name of Jesus and in service to their own morality--from high to low. It couldn't have been any other way, and it WILL BE made right. There will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Even that is not the end.
Personally, I don't believe the USA is the LAST of these nation-state TYPES. (From some sources, there are more practicing Christians in China than in the US. And from others, Christian and quasi-Christian "groups" hold far more sway in high places in other powerful East Asian nations (Japan and South Korea specifically) than might be casually understood. EAST to WEST are directions, not locations. Personally, I don't think "this Gospel of the Kingdom" has been preached the world over. For MANY are called, FEW chosen. Could be that not enough MANY have been called yet, in the Macro sense.
Again, just me talking, but I stayed with BT in spite of the Towers paper, not because of it. One thing I can say--I didn't read it without having absorbed the LOF (as much as is/was possible with me) and I have trouble Spiritually shoe-horning it into what came before it. But I have my thoughts, and prefer them.
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The State of Israel is not our friend that's for sure. One of many proofs is the 'church' supports the State of Israel. And if the 'church' supports it it's wrong.
IMO; We may be closer to the end than we think? It seems digital currency is very close. China's social credit score is mandatory and digital currency is one of the ways they enforce it.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
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I am sure Ray was aware that various nations/empires throughout human history (from Rome to the Holy Roman Empire to all the countries in Europe) once was number one and could fit in the prophecy, but America being "on high above all nations of the earth" is only a small part of the paper.
What makes America different is the 911 attacks, a very specific catastrophe -- "IN THE DAY OF THE GREAT SLAUGHTER, WHEN THE TOWERS FALL" (Isa 30:25)
He even talked about how the US foreign policy was straight out of Isaiah's words to prove his points, although some of the info he wrote may be outdated now.