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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: jennie on February 26, 2007, 02:18:50 PM
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Listening to the news in Georgia and just heard that Jesus remains were found(?), Mary Magdalene was found in tomb nest to Him and they had a child!!!! Who would have ever "thunk" it??? Jennie
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Good Grief!!
Someone probably just saw Elvis too!!!
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The last I heard, on the news, Elvis was spotted somewhere in Michigan!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Iris
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I wondered how long it would take for this to make the forum. Let's read the news together and keep it factual...
There were tombs found (a long time ago, I might add) of people named Jesus; his mother Mary; his wife, Marianne; and their son, Judah. No other claims are made. These names are the most common names at the time. Remains were often moved -- so an empty tomb is no big deal.
No remains were found, however some DNA-containing material was sent off for analysis.
This is not a Titanic news story!
Peace
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<am thouroughly confused, but pleasantly bemused, and extraodrinarily amused>
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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I think Elvis is moving next door to us. We'll probably sit on the front porch at night, eat peanut butter sandwiches and sing!
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good grief......very good grief for them.
from cradel, to the cross; to the grave; unto tortillas, broken windows, tree bark and even the trees themselves,, now back to the grave.
GO FIGURE ! the lost sheep don't see the SPIRIT of JESUS within themselves even.
Rodger
P.s. Dennis = side bruns, leather jacket, Harley rider, = Elvis ;D
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Jennie,
Just make sure it is not Great Value or Peter Pan peanut butter with the begginning numbers of 2111. They have beennationally recalled off of shelves.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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I think I Just saw Elvis Leaving Lula's, Im going after that no good....... get back to yall later, dangit I just stepped on a doughnut.
Longhorn
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Longhorn...(http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif) (http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif)
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Longhorn,
You are such a trip. Your posts make my days so much better. My husband read your last post and he says "It's great to have friends like those". You are doing good if you can get anything from him LOL, especailly when he has been sick.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17345429/?GT1=9033
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Rick,
Thanks for posting that link. From what I can see of it, no one is taking this seriously, except James Cameron. I think it is a little off way for him becuase in all the films that I have seen him shoot of documentaries he has remained true. This is interesting, I am actually going to watch this when it air or get someone to record it for me.
It is funny, I do not know why people are obseesed with finding Jesus's bones. I have found his heart and his arms and walk with him every day in my life. I would settle for this, then some old dusty bones. :) <starts to sing Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus>
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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dont you think the press and science would love to discredit what we believe about Jesus. the sriptures say He was resurrected and that is all I need to believe it. they can say what they want but it does not change a thing. God never changes!!!!!
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Rick,
Amen to that last post.
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hey Pax good to hear from ya!!!!
(http://bestsmileys.com/cars/8.gif)
Elvis last seen leaving Michigan on way to Lula's in Lubbock!!!!!!!
By the way, what is Camerons deal w/ all of this anyway??
(http://bestsmileys.com/water/16.gif)
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I have been thinking a lot about this today. Again, it reminds me that the awesome power of belief in humans is the strongest force in the universe (aside from compound interest says Einstein).
For example, the Shoud of Turin has largely been dismissed as the burial cloth of Jesus; yet many, many people still believe that Jesus' body was once wrapped in it despite the overwhelming evidence.
So this James Cameron story (which is quite ridiculous) begs the question: What would it take for me to believe the claim that someone has found Jesus' bones? That essentially the resurrection did not occur as recorded in religious history. Could there ever be enough evidence to change this belief of mine?
There was an intriguing movie a few years back with that very plot (to find Jesus' remains). As I recall, the plot was interesting, the movie was not.
If God's perfect plan can withstand the scrutiny of humans, then what would it take for you to question your beliefs about the resurrection?
Film at Eleven...
Peace
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Aren't there many churches in Italy, France etc that got famous for having "relics" from Jesus and the disciples??? One church claims to have the foreskin of Jesus!!!
Pax, right before I found Ray's site and for awhile afterwards, I was shaken in my beliefs to the core!! Up was down, right was wrong, etc. What I had held onto all my life was being questioned & trampled. I was questioning the validity of the bible even. I didn't know what to believe. For some reason, I kept reading Ray, and checking EVERYTHING on E sword. I bought the Concordant Version. Went to many other UR websites. All that has passed and I am at peace. I don't think bones or no bones will bother me. (Well, Lord Willing! ;)
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James Cameron.... Is he the little punk that was in that t.v. series full house or some boring piece of crap like that. Iv'e always had the impression that he really enjoyed hanging out with the guys.... if you get my drift.
Longhorn
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Longhorn,
You're just tooo funny! I think the boy you are thinking of was on Growing Pains??? And the one from the Left Behind movies.
Lisa
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James Cameron is a Hollywood film director. Kirk Cameron was the kid on Growing Pains, the show that was on TV in the late 80's.
James Cameron was the director of Titanic.
Iris
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Thanks Iris,
I was wondering why the Titanic was being mentioned, now I know! Your flowers just keep getting prettier.
Lisa
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sounds like Cameron is just seeing "bling,bling$$$$$". I always say the best things are in Georgia but that peanut butter was made here! It is a conspiracy to discredit our fair state!!!
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Great Post!
I cannot be persuaded to disbelieve in my Lord and Saviours' RESURRECTION due to some old bones being found which claims to be those of Jesus! The Holy Spirit has been my teacher for so long and HE has convicted me of HIS TRUTHS (step by step) thus far; which the results are different than when erring man teaches me spiritual things. The results of the Holy spirit teaching me of Gods' truths always comes with the peace that passes all understanding as well as a joy that lasts, and an assurance that no doubt can creep in and confuse me on. No amount of human reasoning on this issue (of finding HIS remains) can cause me to look back from what MY SPIRITUAL COUNSELOR has laboured so hard to instil within my heart, mind and spirit about the RESURRECTION OF CHRIST. (Here again, satan sticks his ugly head up just to make millions off of the doubters...unfortunately it is working :( :()
<sings..HE AROSE, HE AROSE, HALLELUEA CHRIST AROSE..">
...the foreskin of Yeshua? UNBELIEVABLE ::)!
...hey wait a minute...Elvis is on isr way here, to Lubbock?? ???...I'll have to redirect Elvis to my DH's ex-wife (she lives here in Lubbock... SHE LOVES ELVIS; she literally dressed up as him/collar and all one Halloween, plus she named the youngest daughters' middle name after his name...AAron ???.) ..... I will just tell Elvis that Lula had to go...and that she took the fastest horseout of town just to get back with her favorite cowboy....Longhorn ;D ;D (yee haa)
...cute pix Gena!!! :D
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James Cameron .....Kirk Cameron... No Diffrence...... They are both a couple of those things you see when you open a can of Vienna sausages..
Longhorn
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....HELLO... :-X :-X :-X :-X
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That was just my own opinion, and not those of the forum.
Longhorn
Give me a break, it's a slow day.
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Pax Vobiscum.... How do you do that blue writing stuff. I always enjoy reading your post. If I had your literary skills... oh well.. back to reality.
Longhorn
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I.. uh... change the color to BLUE.
Thanks for the nod.
Peace[/size][/font]
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<sticks head in and starts to sing>
Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones
Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones,
Dem, bones, dem bones, dem dry bones, Hear the Word of the Lord.
<pauses singing>
I cannot believe how desprarate people will believe a lie rather than the Truth. What they do not know behind their door is guess what the Truth, becuase every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.
<continues singing while exiting>
The head bone connected to the neck bone
Sincerely,
Anne C. McGuire
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Hi All
Pax mentioned the Shroud of Turin. It is my understanding from the Scriptures that Jesus' body was actually wrapped in strips of cloth, with many spices, so people looking for a (or dating an existing) single sheet of linen are barking up the wrong tree. ;D
God be with you all.
Andrevan.
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I was just rereading this entire thread. These long threads do take turns...I had completely forgotten what the title of this thread was!!! ;D
Andrevan, glad to read you posting again!!!
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Your a nut Anne...but I wouldn't have you any other way ;D
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If Jesus' body was found then you might as well burn your bibles, especially the NT, for it would be less than useless. I think that's what they're trying to accomplish here, deny the resurrection, therefore, Jesus would have just been a normal human being that's still rotting in his grave and therefore by claiming to be 'The Son of God' also a liar, and a deciver and responsible for deceiving so many people and ruining millions upon millions of lives who were negatively affected by the The Whore [Christendom] for naught. Believed in vain, sacrificed their lives in vain, were beheaded, fed to the lions in vain. I think you get the point, so yes, if Jesus' body was found, then the 'Holy Scriptures' would be just as worthless as The Quran and The Torah, etc...
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Matt 16 : 13 Whome do men say that I the Son of mam am?....15. But whome say ye that I am?
From e-mails to Ray.
Jesus' Body?
« on: Yesterday at 04:09:11 AM »
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I'm confused about Jesus' resurrection body. Was it a glorified body or the same one He had? And what happened to it when He went to heaven? Thank you for your time!
Dear Reader:
Jesus was resurrected with a SPIRITUAL body (I Cor. 15:44-50). For the benefit of those with physical eyes only, Jesus appeared numerous times in human form.
First He appeared as a Gardener (John 20:15).
Second He appeared as Himself (Matt. 28:9).
Third He appeared "in another form" His Own disciples did not know (Mark 16:12).
Fourth, fifth, and sixth, He appeared to His eleven apostles in a mountain (Matt. 28:16), through solid walls (John 20:19), and eight days later He appeared to Thomas (Matt. 20:27), with His Crucified body.
It matter not in the slightest what happened to His physical crucified body. The Scriptures do not tell us what happened to it.
God be with you,
Ray
on the shore and they could only surmise that it was Jesus
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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if Jesus' body was found, then the 'Holy Scriptures' would be just as worthless as The Quran and The Torah, etc...
Why? It would just be Jesus' dead bones. He was dead, He died, his earthly body died. Then the Father raised him in a new spiritual body. I don't think Christ was raised in his earthly body. I personally believe that God took or hid Jesus' earthly body, much like he did Moses to keep silly men from worshipping the dead bones. But even if Jesus' bones were found, what would that prove?
And how would anyone ever prove that any bones belonged to Jesus anyway.
For me even if they could prove that any bones belonged to Jesus, it wouldn't bother me one bit.
Now, if a race of space aliens landed and said we were planted billions of years ago by them, my faith might be a little shaken up ;) ;D
Blessings
Craig
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I looked at it as, if they found His body, then that would prove He didn't Rise From The Dead and if He didn't rise, then vain is thy faith.
1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
Also, Jesus didn't leave His body in the tomb,
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But he was risen, in a spiritual body, what does his earthly body have to do with anything?
He was seen many times in a spiritual body, not his eartly body.
Will we die and be risen in our eartlhy bodies?
No we won't and Jesus wasn't either.
Craig
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But he was risen, in a spiritual body, what does his earthly body have to do with anything?
He was seen many times in a spiritual body, not his eartly body.
Will we die and be risen in our eartlhy bodies?
No we won't and Jesus wasn't either.
Craig
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
So obviously, if they find his body in the tomb, then the NT writers lied, when they wrote "he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him [it's supposed to be empty].
So if it;s not empty, then houston we have a problem. What happened to his earthly body then? I always looked at it like Jesus' earthly body was transformed into a spiritual body, that's why it wasn't there.
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Will some of us be raised to a physical body again as was Lazarus and others who Jesus restored to life?
Will perhaps the many and the lost be raised to physical life to continue life on earth as Christ and His Elect rule and straighten out things through the LOF WTJ?
Any thoughts?....answers....???
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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But he was risen, in a spiritual body, what does his earthly body have to do with anything?
He was seen many times in a spiritual body, not his eartly body.
Will we die and be risen in our eartlhy bodies?
No we won't and Jesus wasn't either.
Craig
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
So obviously, if they find his body in the tomb, then the NT writers lied, when they wrote "he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him [it's supposed to be empty].
So if it;s not empty, then houston we have a problem. What happened to his earthly body then? I always looked at it like Jesus' earthly body was transformed into a spiritual body, that's why it wasn't there.
I agree with you Sorin. If they could prove that the bones were those of Jesus ( which is impossible to prove anyway),
it would add fuel to the story that his body was merely secreted away, and the desciples lied when they claimed that He was risen and
the tomb was empty.
Even though it can not be proven, these kind of stories are just a continuing attack on Christianity.
Tim
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I guess I should have said followers of Christ. ;D
Tim
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John 2:19
"Jesus answered and
said unto them, Destroy
this temple, and in three
days I will raise it up."
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Hi Arcturus, I've wondered about what you posted as well, in fact just in the last couple of days (coincidence?). You said:
Will some of us be raised to a physical body again as was Lazarus and others who Jesus restored to life?
Will perhaps the many and the lost be raised to physical life to continue life on earth as Christ and His Elect rule and straighten out things through the LOF WTJ?
Any thoughts?....answers....Huh
Peace to you
Arcturus
And I was thinking of these scriptures:
Ezekiel 37:1-14 ESV
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; it was full of bones.
2 And he led me around among them, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley, and behold, they were very dry.
3 And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, you know."
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5 Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the LORD."
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
14 And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD."
What are these scriptures all about? This sounds like people are being resurrected to "physical fleshly" bodies. Is this what is going on and if not then what does this all mean? Are these people being raised to the millennial rule do you think? It sounds so bizarre...
Peace, Diana
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Diana
That is some interesting and applicable scripture! But before I get into what you have posted allow me to thank you very much for the transcribe you have done for all of us. I am extremely grateful for that study in writing. Thank you so much! 8)
Now…..yes….lets see what we can come up with here. The scriptures that trigger my question are these ones. Firstly Jesus says in Matt 5 : 5 Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the EARTH.
Rom 8 : 19 For even the whole creation all nature waits expectantly and longs earnestly for God’s sons to be made known, waits for the revealing, the disclosing of their son ship
Will the Kingdom of God have an earthly phase? We know that the spiritual is invisible to the carnal man.
1 Tim 6 : 16 Who alone has immortality in the sense of exemption from every kind of death and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see.
John 1 : 18 No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom in the intimate presence of the Father, He has declared Him, He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known.
Will there be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come? Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…?
Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth WHEN YOU SEE Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God…..29And people will come from east and west and from north and south and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.
Diana, I think God is using us to stir up some questions and excitement in anticipation of what we are going to see in Ray’s part D soon to come!....That’s what I think sister! ;D ;D ;D
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Great discussion Diana and Arcturus :)
I am not sure if this will help, but the Scripture I am going to reference is an instruction on the manner how to pray;
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
I agree with all that you have both stated :)
I do find it very interesting concerning how christendom has taken these instructional words of Christ and turned them into "The Lords Prayer" and repeat them religiously (no pun intended) every week; while totally ignoring Christs on instruction of not using "vain repetitions." :)
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Will there be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come? Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…?
Luke 13 : 28 There will be weeping and grinding of teeth WHEN YOU SEE Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God…..29And people will come from east and west and from north and south and sit down, feast at table in the kingdom of God.
Arcturus, I really think you are on to something here. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Maybe Darren....we will just have to wait and see....
Calling Ray....
callling RAY....
calling RAY SMITH....
Calling L Ray Smith.....Hey RAY ;D
Ray we are hungry for part D......Hey Ray...We love you too! ;D
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Hi Arcturus and Diana,
I too think on these things about the kingdom. We often read this scripture, that we are arised in a spiritual body.
1Co 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
But who is Paul talking to here, the brethren or elect is who he addresses at the beginning of this chapter. These are the elect he is saying will be in the first resurrection.
1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;
In the scripture you gave Diana, it does not sound like the few/elect that is being talked about. It says their hope is lost and they are cut off. There is no mention of being raised as spirit either.
11 Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
I think what you stated Arcturus is likely. It is an interesting subject to comtemplate :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
p.s. Ray said his part D was up to 70 pages, the longer he takes the more he adds to it, I think it will be worth the wait ;)
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Hello Kat
So the scriputure that Diana brings forward could be the lost called many....?
I recall somewhere that Ray was asked what would happen to aborted babies. Did he not say they would be restored to life and given their life to live out again under a new administration.....(something like that???)....like...they were too young to sin so they are restored to life on earth as they are not ELECT faithful to the end so to speak?
It is great sharing, caring and contemplating the word of our God.
It is wonderful that Ray is working on part D....70 pages....already! Bless that man! 8)
Peace to you as we hold our Peace!
Arcturus your sister. :)
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[Elvis is alive in the hearts of the many who are called though he sleeps (dead) in his grave, Jesus Who lives, Who is LIFE, is dead to the many who are called, that's why they look for signs and wonders, what is physical (Literal) not what is TRUTH (SPIRITUAL).
Skip
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Hi Arcturus,
The valley of dry bones appears to me to be all of humanity that have ever live, except the elect.
I think this is the email you were referring to.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,201.0.html -------------------------
Dear Matt:
There are only two resurrection to immortality.
The first is for the chosen elect overcomes explained in part in (I Cor. 15).
All others--children, criminals, mentally challenged, the many called but not chosen, etc.
In the case with children we are told: "There shall be no more thence
an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the
child shall die [spiritually die to his carnal mind purged through judgment] an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old [and not yet purged of his carnal mind through judgment] shall be accursed [until he IS thoroughly purged]" (Isa. 65:20).
God's judgments are both light and harsh. (See Luke 12:45).
Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of
God. (See Rev. 20:15).
Sorry, but this is a huge subject requiring hundreds of pages to cover the details.
God be with you,
Ray
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Just one more peice to the puzzle :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Amen Kat
truly a precious piece to add!
Here is what I see....quoting Ray....Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. ...INTO GOD'S REALM....The realm of Christ and His Elect....? The realm of the Spirit?
Peace to you sister
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Yes, God's realm is His spiritual kingdom.
I think Ray is saying that there will be many that will enter freely/willingly to accept Christ's judgment. Because it won't take long for people that do not live really wicked lives to be purged and brought to right understanding. These will be those who get a few stripes and actually I can think that there will be those that get no stripes at all, think of the babies raised up.
Some will take a really long time before they are cleansed, I suppose, and then they have to learn the truth too. I long process for some, but we all will finally be all in all.
mercy,peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Guys, a quick reply while my son is at school and my little one is napping.....stolen moments you know! Love my little ones, but boy they can be a handful. God sure is teaching me a lot through them...
Arcturus you said:
Will there be human representatives who will mediate between heaven and Earth. Who will Govern between earthly Nations and Christ and His Elect in the Kingdom to come? Will these representatives be Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…?
This is very interesting, I hadn't thought of this before. I wonder however, if "human representatives" would be needed though, since though spirit is invisible it is apparently capable of "appearing" as human forms (eg, the various forms Jesus took after his resurrection). So it's possible that the elect and Jesus will appear visibly to the physical people (if that is the case). I know we'll find out when the time comes, but it fascinates me nonetheless.
Is it possible that the elect are raised spiritual, but the rest of humanity are raised physical (as in Ezekiel) after which they experience the Lake of Fire, through which they will eventually be transformed into spiritual beings....is this the second death?? But then really, what would be the point of that, unless as Arcturus pointed out, babies (for example) need to still live a full "fleshly" life and then be transformed. Boy, this can get confusing. Lots to think about!!
As Kat, pointed out, there will likely be varying degrees of purification amongst people and some will be entering the "realm" of God sooner than others. Perhaps this is why people will be "gnashing their teeth" as they behold Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who will enter the Kingdom far sooner than most of humanity. But this leads me to a question: do I remember this correctly...did Ray once say somewhere that there are NO old testament people who will be part of the elect in the first resurrection?? I can't remember if he said that or where I am getting this from...If this is true, than Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob come up in the second resurrection having to go through the Lake of Fire?? This would truly be bizarre, these great men of faith! But God does work in mysterious ways.
I suspect there will be a lot of Christians who will have a harder time of it in the Lake of Fire than some secular people, since many have clung to their "eternal hell" doctrine. Will they first experience God as they perceived him in their lifetimes before the truth is revealed to them? Because if so, this would be a terrible fate. To actually come up in the second resurrection experiencing and believing for a time that you have ended up in your believed fabled hell!! Now, that would be scary!! These scriptures come to mind:
2 Samuel 22:27 ESV
27 with the purified you deal purely, and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous.
That would be enough to make anybody grind their teeth!
So Kat, if the valley of dry bones is all the rest of humanity (besides the elect) are they raised to a physical body which is still immortal in that through purging etc. the physical person is transformed to a spiritual person? I once read a study by Eby where he explained the process that materials go through when they are burned...a firelog burning transforms into other elements...it doesn't disappear, it just changes form. And notice that fire always burns upward (towards the divine). I thought this was a beautiful description.
Oh, oh...my little one is awakening...gotta run...sorry, i hope I've made sense...i know i was all over the place! :-\ :)
Peace, Diana
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Hi Diana,
As far as I am seeing this, the elect will be in the first resurrection, the dead will be raised as spirit, the elect still living will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. I think it is like you said Diana, they will be like Christ, so they can appear in the flesh as need be.
The rest of humanity are raised in the flesh physical, it is the second death, spiritually.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
They have to go through the Lake of Fire and die to the flesh, and have all the things in verse 8 burned out. But they will be immortal, because they will not have a physical death again.
I believe they will be resurrected the same as they were before they died, and have the same personality and same way of thinking, and then they go to the Lake of fire, as Ray said in the email;
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Many will freely enter God's judgments and will then enter into God's realm sooner. The harden criminals will have to be "THROWN into this fiery judgment of the carnal mind and human will which hates the ways of God. (See Rev. 20:15).
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Those entering freely I think are like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as you can only enter the kingdom through Jesus Christ and they never knew Him, so they must go through the Lake of Fire, as all Old Test. people will.
Joh 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by Me, he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture.
The prophets of the Old Test., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and any that did not live terrible evil lives, so they will recieve few stripes and have a shorter time there, but I guess there will be all varying lengths of stay there, depending on how much has to be burned out of them.
Luk 12:48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
All not in the first resurrection, will have to go into the Lake of Fire. They must first be purged of all their carnal ways, then they must be taught the truth and live an obedient life, just as the elect are doing now. For some the length of time will be short, and then they will be changed just as those still living at Christ's return, and they will enter the kingdom as Spirit. But only the ones that are in the first resurrection will 'reign' with Christ.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat
That was beautifully expounded. 8)
I believe the Elect will be those who are glorified with Christ and will share in His inheritance.To this end Paul knew he was running his race for that high calling!
John 5 : 26 For even as the Father has life in Himself and is self-existent, so He has given to the Son to have life in Himself and be self-existent.
1 Cor 15 : 53,54 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature, and this mortal part of us, this nature that is capable of dying must put on immortatlity, freedom from death. 54. And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up utterly vanquished forever in and unto victory.
The Elect will already have this reward but all the others who did not die and become burried with Christ or recieve the baptism, regeneration from above, begotten anew, conversion and testing judgments and who are tried and proven faithful to the end, in otherwords everyone else, the many, will go to the second death LOF. That will be more difficult because becoming dead with Christ now before His return is acceptable to God - a sacrifice of sweet odor. But afterwards....where does the scriptures say, many will long for death and it will not come...What you wrote Kat : But they will be immortal, because they will not have a physical death again. caused me to think again!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I think the scripture you are referring to is in Rev. 9.
Rev 9:6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.
So much is going on there, too much to speculate about.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi sisters,
If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have to go through the LOF, then why did Jesus say, " Matthew 8:11 - And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." Unless there is more than one kingdom; which I don't think there is. But then in the very next verse, Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
These dry bones in Ezekiel are talking about Israel being dead and then being made alive; but we know that we are the Israel of God and this was just a shadow of things to come. So maybe Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are just a shadow as well.
I'll tell what has always bothered me and that's in Revelation. In the New Jerusalem, there is the tree of life on either side of the river...right? And it says, that the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. What nations? Are there other people outside of the New Jerusalem? Apparently!
Man there is a lot we don't know, isn't there? But we are in the right place to hopefully find out. In the meantime, its wonderful to fellowship and share our thoughts with each other. ;D
God bless,
Dwight
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Kat
thank you very much fro that scripture. Yes that is the one that fits!
Amen
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Yes Dwight I think we are exactly where God wants us! Amen to you too bro 8)
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This is so great to try to figure out these tough issues that have been on our hearts for so long! I am excited to know the outcome. GoOd job broTHers and sisters in presenting all of the dif. scenarios! You are so close, keep it going... (I REALLY, REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE CULMINATION OF ALL OF THIS. :o :o :o)
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Hi Dwight,
If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have to go through the LOF, then why did Jesus say, " Matthew 8:11 - And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." Unless there is more than one kingdom; which I don't think there is. But then in the very next verse, Jesus says, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
I was thinking about this, and the scripture say some will enter the kingom before others. Here is scripture on the same subject.
Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
v. 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.
v. 29 And they will come from the east and the west, and from the north and the south, and will recline in the kingdom of God.
v. 30 And behold, there are last ones which will be first, and there are first ones which will be last.
So if you consider that some will enter the kingdom before others, as in the last (Strong: lowest) in carnality, will be first to enter, and the first (Strong: chiefest) in this present world will be last to enter the kingdom. Now I would think that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets would be among the first to enter the kingdom out of the Lake of Fire.
So I can see the many coming to sit with them in the kingdom are those coming out of the Lake of Fire after them.
Now about verse 12, "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:" What came to my mind is that God referred to Israel of the Old Test., as the children of the kingdom.
Exo 19:6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words which you shall speak to the sons of Israel.
Jesus had already referred to Israel in Mat. 8:10. And as you said the children of Israel were a shadow of things to come, yet they still were a literal people. So there will be those 'children' that will cast into the Lake of Fire and have a longer stay there than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
So does this seem to be a possible way that this can be understood?
Are there other people outside of the New Jerusalem?
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
Seem like New Jerusalem is the elect, as it says the bride, this is the kingdom of Christ coming to the earth.
When christ's kingdom first comes to the earth all nations/people will be outside of it, until they have been purged and given the truth and brought to salvation.
Anyway that is how these scripture seem to go together to me. It would be great if someone could give more scripture or help with this :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hello Kat
I too have been pondering this topic. Here are some more scriptures. Paul has just been explaining that the resurrection of the dead is to be raised as a spiritual body. He explains the first man Adam and the last Adam Christ.
Now we know we are in a process of becoming the image of Christ. That this process is continuing and at the resurrection some will emerge as the elect and others will still not be perfect images of Christ. Here is where it gets interesting because now Paul starts to talk about perhaps, the others who will not be admitted entry into the kingdom after resurrection.
1 Cor 15 : 50 But, I tell you this, brethren, flesh and blood cannot become partakers of eternal ( we know this to mean aion) salvation and inherit or share in the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable that which is decaying inherit or share in the imperishable the immortal.
Not all will inherit immortality and freedom or immunity from decay.
Paul continues in vs 51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery, a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God. We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed 52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the DEAD IN CHRIST WILL BE RAISED IMPERISHALBE….
NOT ALL ARE DEAD IN CHRIST….
I believe that upon the return of Christ, not all will be able to meet Him in the air because some will be earth bound in carnality that yet has to be purified off them through the LOF
Is this specualtion? Are there other scriptures that witness to this? We know the scripture is not of its own interpretation! Are there other pointers to verify this possibility someone.
Kat I believe that your insight regarding what Dwight presented rings true.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Kat
This scripture also came up in the Re: The supposed "secret" rapture...
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:00:26 PM »
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Hello Medias Res
Your question caused me to look up the scripture and I found this from the Amplified Version
Prov 10 : 30 The consistently righteous shall never be removed, but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
Perhaps this means the wicked will be cast out into the outer darkness after Jesus returns. What do you think?
One think I can observe is that maybe I am learning to dig for treasure better perhaps. In the past I did not even have a clue that scripture was spiritual!....not of its own interpretation and requiring a second witness!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Pro 10:30 The righteous, to times age-abiding, shall remain unshaken, but, the lawless, shall not inhabit the earth. (Rotherham)
I think this maybe talking about in the kingdom, the righteous elect will rule, so there will not be allowed to be lawlessness/wicked on the earth.
v. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
v. 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
v. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
v. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
There are those that are living on earth at the return of Christ that are not in the first resurrection, but they must live on.
But those that are raised in the Great White Throne judgment now have deathlessness, I mean death and the grave are cast into the lake of fire, so they are over with.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
This is when Christ returns, there will be a new heaven and the new earth, that is His kingdom come.
v. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
v. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
And here after the new heaven and new earth are set up, verse 4 says there is no more death. The kingdom is on earth, and there are still people living on earth and yet there is no more death, that ends with Christ's return.
This whole chapter 21 is about the kingdom on earth... then down in verse 24 there are nations/people, both from those alive at His return and those raised? And verse 27 says there are those that cannot enter because they are still unclean, it is only for those spiritually pure/perfect as spiritual being now.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
v. 25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there.
v. 26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
v. 27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat my sister
I went to study that scripture you kindly located for me. Look what came up......
This is so interesting. :D 8) Look at that scripture you found for me Rev 9 :6. And in THOSE DAYS people will seek death and will NOT find it; and they will yearn to die, but death evades and flees from them.
Kat....THOSE DAYS are only after the FIFTH ANGEL BLOWS HIS TRUMPET! Check out the thread of this prophesy. Look at Rev 9 : 1.....Jesus is not even back yet with the blast from the seveth trumpet or are we not seeing that all the trumpets ARE CHIRST? Just like all the seven Churches are ONE?
What do you think? ......
Peace to you
Arc. :)
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Hi Arcturus,
I think that would help explain a lot of things :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Hi Kat and Arturus,
When the Lord comes at the last trump, and gathers His elect from the four corners of the earth and the dead IN CHRIST are raised from the dead; then He sets up His kingdom. This is the first resurrection. There are still unbelievers left on the earth that are called the nations. These are ruled and judged by the chosen; and Satan is cast into a bottomless pit for a thousand years.
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 21:1-6
After the thousand years, Satan is loosed from the pit and makes war with the saints (chosen). Then comes the second ressurection and the GWT. This is when the just and the unjust stand before God and everyone will be judge according to his works.
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev.21:5-15
Then after the GWT judgement Jphn says,
" 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Rev.22:1-5
Now, this is how I see it, but of course I could be wrong. what do you think?
Love,
Dwight
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Hi Dwight,
What you have just stated is the way I used to believe. I had to rethink all of what I believed because I was bringing some things I learned in church into my ideas. Nothing that the church teach is right, Ray has pounded that home to me.
One thing that is important in all this.
2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Those period of time hold little meaning with this verse in mind, the numbers are all symbolic.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Yes Dwight Yes,
Thats what i see, death is not thrown into the pit until AFTER His reign on earth. There will be those that are still unbelievers and those that are still living (but of the elect) when Christ returns. The OT patriarchs will still be in their graves. They died without receiving the promise.
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Sorry posted without finishing ;
(Heb 11:39) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
(Heb 11:40) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
So, they hadn't received the comforter.
So am i wrong in seeing that the new heaven and earth will be AFTER the GWJ because He says it will be after death is thrown into the LOF??
And arcturus the seventh trumpet is the last, reaching perfection.
And destroying all things of men, like in Jericho:
(Jos 6:15) And it came to pass on the seventh day, that they rose early about the dawning of the day, and compassed the city after the same manner seven times: only on that day they compassed the city seven times.
(Jos 6:16) And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the LORD hath given you the city.
So perfection for those who are not of the elect wil come when the walls fall and a new earth is created?? After the elect have reigned and death is destroyed??
Am i rambling here??? Great thread!
Sandie GB this forum
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Hi Sandie,
Jericho is a great example, I never thought of it in that way, but it makes sense. Everything in the OT is for our examples. Thanks Sandie. ;D
Dwight
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Hello there fellow seekers!...brothers and sisters
here is where it gets different for me....
Rev 20 :5
In this verst the words "Butr the rest of the ded lived not again untill the thousand years were finished"....what if I were to tell you that I believe with all my heart and mind that those words are spurious and that they are NOT found in the oldest and most reliable Greek MSS, Sinaitic, Vatican Nos 1209 and 1160 nor the Syriac MS....then could you see where my view point is coming from?
I like your neat arrangement into time order...the sequence of Death being overcome in the end but what about the scriptures that repeat that Jesus comes in wrath?
We know that where we are now in the time line of events that will culminate eventually in all being saved and God being all in all, that right now we are not there yet. The world continues to career into deeper and deeper darkness and faithlessness. When Jesus returns what faith will He find remaining? He asked that question to indicate that the times are going to get rougher not smoother and I know that this deviates from the point here a little but it is meant to give a bigger picture and not critisize anyone. From where I am seeing, the world is dying and might now be more properly described as dead than as alive. Even Paul cried at what he forsaw as coming against the Church and the deception that would increase in the wave up to the return of Christ.
My question is why put the fifth trumpet in Rev 9 : 6 into the picture at trumpet number five. What does THAT mean?
I see the Millennial age as the age of the return of Christ what will usher in the WTG!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Arcturus,
There are so many difficult verses in prophecy that are yet veiled to us at this point. I hope Ray's "Hell, Part D," will uncover some of this mystery for us. In the meantime, I think that what you said about the world careering deeper and deeper into faithlessness and the road getting rougher and rougher for us is of paramount importance. When He returns, will He find faith on the earth? It's plain to see, that the deception is growing and Babylon's blinding messages are more and more prevalent.
At this point sister, I don't know what all the trumpets mean or if the verse you quoted is or isn't in the original manuscripts or if there is a correct chronological order to the end times, but I do know, that what you said is true about things getting worse and worse. Never before do we need each other and our Lord more than we do now. We need to stay together in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and so much more as we see the day approaching. I really believe that Satan knows that his time is short, and now more than ever seeks to devour those whom he believes are the Lord's elect.
My heart is so filled with the anticipation of the Lord's return, that I can hardly contain myself. We are so blessed of the Lord to have found each other with just a vapour of time left. May the Lord continue to bless our fellowship and the building up of His body to the glory of God our Father.
In Him, your brother
Dwight
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Hello Dwight
Never before do we need each other and our Lord more than we do now. We need to stay together in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and so much more as we see the day approaching. I really believe that Satan knows that his time is short, and now more than ever seeks to devour those whom he believes are the Lord's elect.
You make it so easy to stay in oneness of spirit and love one toward another and towards you Dwight...thank you.
Josh gave me a link to check out OT Hebrew and NT Greek meanings. Yesterday I nearly fell off my chair! I went to check out that Rev 20:5 line and found out that the word finished means "should be being finished".............so whether or not Rev 20 : 5 does or does not have authority to be in the word of God or not....the Hebrew meaning brought a different aspect to the text for me that does not conflict with starting to see that everything that Christianity taught is unscriptural as Ray also says in a recent e-mail response I read somewhere. I personally believe ( rightly or wrongly) that when Christ returns it will be with His throne and not without it because He comes to reign. His throne is His authority symbolically, over evil and His elect will share in that authority.
Mystery Babylon is a liar teaching that when Christ's Millennial Kingdom is inaugurated everyone will be pelased with its ruling. But I don't think so. Liberites to decieve, to misrepresent, to defraud others will be entirely cut off. For those who love Christ, we will be happy but for those who abuse themselves or others and who have license under darkness to do wrong, they will feel the iron rule and this will consequently be felt as a severe breaking up of alltraditions of men and customs and institutions that have been founded upon corruption, false ideas and bondage.
Isaiah 28 : 17 I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the plummet; and hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters will overwhelm the hiding place.....
Matt 10 : 26...there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed, and hid, that shall not be known....
...but before that, let us remain united in our view that things are going to get worse not brigther and as Ray once wrote to me " There will be no world peace - God has already decreed it."....
We who are not of the world have come out....to meet our Lord....for we can hardly wait for Him to return. As you say Dwight, Satan seeks to devour but I think he is just doing his job to tempt whoever he can to return to worldliness, to go back to Egypt and return to the Mother Harlot and her sing song seductions of carnality. He will not succeed with the elect. The Mother Harlot and her daughter can offer us nothing of purity or holiness but only wretched plagues for her sins. I know you know that Dwight and in this let us remain united in everything Ray has taught us as we wait for part D to encourage us in wisdom and in our faith. Till then brother...
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
I agree with you that Ray’s part D will sort out much of the grey areas and that we look to him as our teacher.
Peace to you
Arcturus,