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=> Off Topic Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on May 25, 2015, 06:19:47 PM
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Makes a grown man cry. War is so ugly. Please come soon Jesus. Please. Your creation desperately needs you. So much sadness and sorrow in this world. So much evil and hate.
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Saw that film. modern 1940's warfare, but same as has been for 6000 years plus.
Come Lord and heal us all.
I-Bob
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I agree with your analysis and would like to add war is pure unadulterated evil of all. Another sad thing also is how much money some people make as a result of war.
In order to discus war you would need to get highly political because war is politics at the cost of human beings lives. It also tells us just how depraved the human heart is. >:(
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It also tells us just how depraved the human heart is. >:(
I tend to think this is a fundamental point that is being taught to this human race in this age... therefore we will continue to have wars and all these 'depraved' actions by mankind through every single generation, until Christ returns. I recently saw where Ray had said this at the conference 'What is the gospel of the kingdom.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg50216.html#msg50216
Rom 8:22 And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
The whole world. If you have any doubts about that, just turn on the evening news. If it’s not the weather; the hurricanes, the earthquakes, then it’s wars and terrorist. Now they are burning down Paris, for eight days straight. This is always been the condition of the world. They say the history of mankind is a chronicle of wars. Man is either in war, coming out of war or preparing for the next war.
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I feel every generation of elect have looked at the terrible world around them and hoped and prayed that Christ would return in their lifetime to rescue His creation... I also hope and pray it is soon, very soon.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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The Lord is a warrior. He trains my hands for war.
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The Lord is a warrior. He trains my hands for war.
Hi Largeli,
Yes, Christ is a warrior indeed but let us never forget Christ is a righteous warrior unlike man is, huge difference . Also when God kills He also has power to resurrect but man has no power to resurrect even and ant.
One should never put Christ on the same level as man even though He was a man He was also the God man as in the Son of God, the first born of all creation.
Christ is from above we are from below, we are of the earth Christ is not. Amen brother, Christ has no sin in Him at all but warring man does, make no mistake about that. ;)
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"He trains my hands for war" did Christ say this or did man..
1 Sam 15
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,"
Infants.
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Alex if you think a Hollywood portrayal of WWII is bad.. Just wait brother. God has promised much worse. Worse than ever has been or will ever be again.
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"He trains my hands for war" did Christ say this or did man..
1 Sam 15
"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,"
Infants.
Hi Largeli,
I think you are misguided if you are justifying war and killing.
In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. No verse is at all becoming its own interpretation.
Matthew 5:43-45
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
We are under a new covenent now. You can't use the old to justify things anymore. Its waxing old and ready to vanish away.
Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Galatians 4:1-5
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Galatians 4:21-31
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are THE TWO COVENENTS; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth TO BONDAGE, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Romans 7:6 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
The new covenent is far above the old. Your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees to enter the kingdom of heaven. Paul was blameless as far as the rightoeusness that was in the law yet he called himself the worst sinner that ever was or ever will be. The only way to exceed the righteousness of the pharisees who kept the law outwardly is to be in Christ because Christ is the fullfillment of the law. The law was and is spiritual but the veil was over the eyes and so this could not be seen until the veil was torn.
Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Romans 8: 1-6
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
The new covenent requires us to love ['AGAPE'] our enemies and feed them when they are hungry. We are to overcome evil with good. Turn the other cheek. Etc...
Romans 12:19-21
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Luke 6:26-35
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Romans 13:10 Love [Gk: 'AGAPE'] worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [GK: 'AGAPE'] is the fulfilling of the law.
Our warefare is no longer carnal, we are being trained in a spiritual battle fighting wickedness in high places. SPIRITUAL is our warfare.
2 Corinthians 10:3-6
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
So only God who is the righteous judge is justified in killing because He also makes alive. Veangence is His and He will repay. As for you, follow Christ.
James 4:12 There is ONE lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: SHALL NOT THE JUDGE OF ALL THE EARTH DO RIGHT?
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
We fight daily the greatest battle ever fought by man. As ray said, being saved may very well be the hardest thing any human being does.
God bless,
Alex
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I'm not justifying war and killing. I hate war. I'm not the one who commanded people to slaughter infants. God commanded it. When stories came out about Isis (in the name of their god) slaughtering babies in Iraq this year I heard Christians say that no god would ever command something like that.. They're wrong.
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I'm not trying to justify war. I hate war.
Alright Largeli, no problem! Well perhaps someone else will benefit from the post.
God bless,
Alex
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Modified the last post.. Please, your comments are appreciated
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Modified the last post.. Please, your comments are appreciated
Well I think you're having a problem with God's sovereignty if it bothers you that He ordered the killing of children.
Romans 9:11-23
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Remember how God handled sodom?
Genesis 18:18-33
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will NOT destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
Not even ten righteouss people in the whole city. Only Lot was spared. Why?
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Isaiah 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
God doesn't sin or tempt. He does everything for the ultimate good of His creation. There is no shadow of turning in Him. He is just.
Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
What did God tell Job when Job was decrying God as unjust?
Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
OH and it continues....
Since God has made us of His race and gives life, does He also have the right to judge and kill? I guess you have to wrestle with the idea of whether you are okay with God being sovereign.
God bless,
Alex
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God is sovereign. I don't have a problem with God or anything about His plan. I worship God. I never said He was unjust.
You used Sodom as an example. It's not the same. Who destroyed Sodom.. God. Did God command man to destroy Sodom? No. He didn't use people to do it at all. Do you see how that is not the same as commanding man to slaughter infants? Not unborn children who know nothing of good and evil... Infants.
It's interesting that you can be brought to tears and decry the ugliness of war from watching "Saving Private Ryan"... Yet if I bring up how God commanded man to rip babies from their mothers arms and slaughter them than I have a problem with God.
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God is sovereign. I don't have a problem with God or anything about His plan. I worship God. I never said He was unjust.
You used Sodom as an example. It's not the same. Who destroyed Sodom.. God. Did God command man to destroy Sodom? No. He didn't use people to do it at all. Do you see how that is not the same as commanding man to slaughter infants? Not unborn children who know nothing of good and evil... Infants.
It's interesting that you can be brought to tears and decry the ugliness of war from watching "Saving Private Ryan"... Yet if I bring up how God commanded man to rip babies from their mothers arms and slaughter them than I have a problem with God.
Hi Largeli,
I'm not sure I understand what has you upset. Are you saying that God is not the cause of both Sodom and the Amelek destruction?
What does unborn children knowing nothing of good and evil have to do with what happened? How can you kill something that isn't yet living?
Adam and Eve knew nothing of good and evil yet Eve comitted every sin in the world before she ever got that knowledge. Does God need to wait and see what man is going to do before He is justfied in pronouncing judgement? Did He not declare the end from the beginning?
Jesus wept when Lazurus died yet Jesus knew that He was very soon about to bring His friend back to life. Would you mock Jesus too for crying?
The death of God's saints are precious in His eyes yet He still kills them. Would you mock Him for grieving the deaths He has caused?
I just don't see the point of your post here.
In Christ,
Alex
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I should add that I never said you have a problem with God. Here is what I started my post with.
"Well I think you're having a problem with God's sovereignty IF it bothers you that He ordered the killing of children."
You asked me to comment. I did. If you don't have a problem with that then my post may benefit someone else who struggles to understand the sovereignty of God and let it be that.
God bless,
Alex
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You keep assuming. I'm not upset. Nor do I have a problem with God. You started a thread lamenting the ugliness of war. Others commented in like with your post. 'War is evil' and 'War is the depravity of man' 'God is trying to teach us how depraved we are' so on and so forth... I don't disagree with those comments but in an effort to broaden perspective I pointed out that God is a warrior. He trains my hands for war. He commanded babies to be slaughtered... Ripped to pieces, blood, guts, screaming in pain...
How is it you can shed a tear for men who died in war but not infants ripped to pieces? I think it's interesting.
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No you did not say flat out 'Largeli you have a problem with God' but you did make an assumption and proceeded to respond based on that assumption. It does not offend me. But I will point it out to avoid any further assumptions or confusion.
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The character I most identified with was probably the clerk (the corporal?) who was drafted into the mission just because he was handy and could speak the language.
Every narrative has a POV--and I mean that in the literary sense, not in the 'popular' sense. There wasn't a man on either side who didn't think he was either 1. doing the right thing or 2. a victim of circumstance. That's pretty much the 'way of the world', I think.
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http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm)
TRUTH NUMBER 8
[A] "Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for OUR ADMONITION [to reprove, caution, warn, remind of obligation or duty, etc.], upon whom the ends of the world [‘eons—ages’] are come" (I Cor. 10:11).
"Now these things were OUR EXAMPLES, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted" (I Cor. 10:6).
[C] "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for OUR LEARNING…" (Rom. 15:4).
It is essential that we study the Old Testament Scriptures, for they are often the only key to the New Testament Scriptures. Paul used the Hebrew Scriptures to teach the foolish Galatians the New Covenant promises. Here’s but one great example:
"Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not HEAR the law? For it is written [in Old Covenant Scriptures] that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the FLESH; but he of the freewoman was by PROMISE. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders [gives birth] to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar IS mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
"But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which IS the mother of us all.
For it is written, ‘Rejoice, you barren that bear not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
"Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not the children of the bondwoman, but of the free." (Gal. 4:21-31).
This is not only an allegory, but it is an allegory containing many metaphors as well. An allegory is when characters or events (such as Sarah and Agar and their children) represent abstract or spiritual ideas or principles. A metaphor is when one thing is said to be something else. (such as Agar actually being mount Sinai, which then represents or corresponds to Jerusalem in bondage). It may seem a little complicated at first, but once one sees all of the aspects of the allegory explained, this principle is quite easy to understand. Nevertheless, it does require the Spirit of God to believe it. It is this very fact (that the Church does not understand or believe this allegory) that the Church continues to believe that God’s true chosen people are STILL, "the children of the bondwoman"—"Jerusalem which NOW IS" over there in the State of Israel. Unbelievable.
Largeli,
The story of Sarah and Hagar is only one example from the Old Testament, but I like to view the whole thing as an allegory. First the physical and then the spiritual. I hate violence, I hate war, I hate even minor confrontations, so it's hard for me to read the Old Testament violence---unless I'm looking at the spiritual aspect of it. So when I read a passage like the one below, I ask myself: what spiritual lesson is there here?
Deuteronomy 7--1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
These nations have all been long dead, and a literal interpretation of this is of little value to us. But an allegoric interpretation can be very useful. The native peoples of Canaan turned to dust long ago, but I have my own Hittites and Girgashites and Amorites to overcome, and they are alive and well. Like the physical ones were greater than Israel, my spiritual ones are "larger and stronger" than me. It's hard not to make treaties with and intermarry with the Hivites and Jebusites in my life. I've been doing it for 30 years. But even so, I live in hope, for I believe that God "has chosen us out of all the peoples on the face of the earth", and I can gladly look forward to the day when God will deliver my enemies unto me, and "destroy them totally". Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 15:50), so I want God to destroy all the flesh in me, even the infants and sheep and cattle.
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Hi extol
I agree with you and I totally understand and agree with your point and I understand the spiritual lessons of all the gentile nations being slaughtered. It doesn't take away from the fact that literal infants were literally ripped to pieces at the command of God. Unless you believe all these stories were just myths. I haven't heard anyone ever claim that. These were real babies and God commanded real humans to slaughter each and every one.
Do you believe these stories are myths? Or do you believe God commanded babies to be slaughtered, blood, guts, infants screaming in pain... Their mothers screaming in pain, throwing up at the sight of it, only to be ripped to pieces themselves?
I would love to hear someone say these are myths or stories and not to be taken literally just like I've heard the creation story does not involve a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil. But if these stories are real and literal than I don't think we are learning the whole spiritual lesson by saying 'ya well God is sovereign' in the case of slaughtered babies while letting our hearts bleed over what happens in modern day warfare.
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Howdy,
I do believe these things really happened, as Paul said in his letter to the Corinthian church. The important thing for me in reading the Old Testament is the parable aspect---how it points to Christ, and foreshadows us being made into the image of God. I believe these things happened, but I stress the parable part because a) it's more important, and b) there are many people who do not believe in the God of the Bible because of the Old Testament violence, or more generally, the existence of evil. For unbelievers and those on the fence, the "problem of evil" is the most powerful argument against God. We know, of course, that God creates evil and uses it often for His purposes, so it is not even an argument.
Please don't misunderstand me though---this is very sad stuff, whether it is 1940s warfare or 2000 B.C. warfare. It's easier to see the "spiritual" in things that happened thousands of years ago. I admit it would be more difficult to say "It's all of God" if we saw the Amalekites being killed on TV today. But God is sovereign now just as He was then, and we have to have faith that He knows what He is doing. There is an appointed time for men to die, and that has always been the case. It is foolish to think otherwise. Christians blame Adam, and skeptics blame God, but the Bible never said there wasn't supposed to be death. It is a major part of our experience of evil, and that's always been the plan. Sadly (from our perspective), dying is not as easy as going to sleep when you're 100 and not waking up; many millions of people have suffered horrible deaths.
But as sad as all of this is, we have something that very few people have--hope for a future resurrection, not just for believers, but for all people. Even those Amalekite babies are going to come back. Instead of learning war as they would have in ancient Amalek, they will learn righteousness.
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Hi extol
I agree with you and I totally understand and agree with your point and I understand the spiritual lessons of all the gentile nations being slaughtered. It doesn't take away from the fact that literal infants were literally ripped to pieces at the command of God. Unless you believe all these stories were just myths. I haven't heard anyone ever claim that. These were real babies and God commanded real humans to slaughter each and every one.
Do you believe these stories are myths? Or do you believe God commanded babies to be slaughtered, blood, guts, infants screaming in pain... Their mothers screaming in pain, throwing up at the sight of it, only to be ripped to pieces themselves?
I would love to hear someone say these are myths or stories and not to be taken literally just like I've heard the creation story does not involve a literal tree of knowledge of good and evil. But if these stories are real and literal than I don't think we are learning the whole spiritual lesson by saying 'ya well God is sovereign' in the case of slaughtered babies while letting our hearts bleed over what happens in modern day warfare.
Hi largeli,
Now you have focused on God having commanded babies should be killed in the OT, along with the rest of the pagan population, when the Israelite army sweep through to rid the land of the pagans, this is true. Do you not realize that babies have been casualties of pretty much every war? The innocent die everyday, but I guess the idea that God is shown to have actually commanded it is what is disturbing... maybe because babies are really harmless.
In those cases in the OT where God condemned those pagan nations to ALL were to be completely removed/killed from the land that the Israelites were to occupy. It's like what Jesse was saying, this is an allegory, and to save any part of them (even a single baby) is to harbor some part of the paganism and to rebel against what God had commanded, for them to completely clean the land (Eze 39).
Can't you see a connection in this (first the physical) and what God, and the elect, will do in the next age... God will bring the chosen (sheep) into His kingdom, but the rest (goats) will face "eonian destruction" (destroying the carnal flesh).
2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
v. 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting (eonian) destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
But just like you are concentrating on the physical/literal of the OT, so the church does the same with the NT meaning of destruction. But yes there was the death of the innocent babies in those OT Israelite wars, just as there is in all wars. Death is a absolute part of this age, but the most important thing is that all those babies had the chance to live and they will be given a better life to live out in the next age, where all thing will be put right by God.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My Laws into their mind and write them in their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 24:7 Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.
Eze 37:23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Zec 8:8 I will bring them back, And they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. They shall be My people And I will be their God, In truth and righteousness.'
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I think you did a great job of differentiating between the physical, Old Covenant aspects and the spiritual, New Covenant application of the Old Testament warfare, Extol and Kat. I can only add a couple of verses to those you already mentioned which help us to focus on when God will be all in all rather than this present veil of tears; I hope they might be helpful to you along with the other verses, largeli.
Romans 8:18-21 (AKJV):
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
II Corinthians 4:17-18 (AKJV):
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Largeli,
Something else I would like to add....the evil in the world is often hard for us to accept because we are projecting our human thoughts and emotions onto God. We say, "If I was God, I would end the suffering, or not have suffering at all." We are thinking--with a human brain--what we would do if we were God. As if we know better than God! Anyone who thinks like that is a fool. It's like thinking "I don't know why goldfish just sit in the pond all day. If I was a goldfish and could breathe underwater, I would want to swim across the ocean!" We are thinking with our human brain what we'd like to do, ignoring the fact that goldfish don't live in salt water, and can't swim nearly that far. Or it's like a bird thinking "Why do humans just stay on the ground? I have these two little wings, and they have FOUR long limbs. If I had limbs like that, I would fly to the moon and back!" The bird is thinking with its bird brain and projecting it onto the human, ignoring the fact that a human cannot do what a bird does, and thinks and behaves very differently. These silly examples are only a very small glimpse of the foolishness of thinking how we would do things if we were God. The reality is, God is far bigger than all the humans and all the goldfish and all the birds in the world.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…" Isa. 55:8-9
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Agreed Jesse! Along that same line of thought;
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
Remember Job!
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Before I comment further let me just say that I appreciate having a forum where we can discuss such things.. I doubt I'd be able to have this discussion in the halls of church.
I agree with all that I've read on this thread.
Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.
It wasn't evil for God to command this because God will also raise them all in their time.. Pharaoh, Herod, etc. have no power to raise from the dead. So is it correct to say that just as the devil is a club in Gods hand and God will judge the devil.. So too was Israel a club in Gods hand and God will judge those who did the slaughtering even though it was what God commanded?
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Hi largeli,
Here is the 6th commandment.
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill (H7523). (KJV)
Exo 20:13 You shall not murder (H7523). (CLV)
Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder (H7523). (Rotherham)
Exo 20:13 `Thou dost not murder (H7523). (YLT)
H7523 râtsach - A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
There is a very big difference in the word where the KJV uses "kill" and what we see in the literal translations "murder." The OT contains numerous prohibitions against 'unlawful' killing - murder, but it DOES allows for 'justified' killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.
1Sam 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
1Sam 15:3 Now go and smite (H5221) Amalek, and utterly destroy (H2763) all that they have, and spare them not; but slay (H4191) both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a@@.
H5221 nâkâh - A primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively): - beat, cast forth, clap, give [wounds], X go forward, X indeed, kill, make [slaughter], murderer, punish, slaughter, slay (-er, -ing), smite (-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, X surely, wound.
H2763 châram - A primitive root; to seclude; specifically (by a ban) to devote to religious uses (especially destruction); physically and reflexively to be blunt as to the nose: - make accursed, consecrate, (utterly) destroy, devote, forfeit, have a flat nose, utterly (slay, make away).
H4191 mooth - A primitive root; to die (literally or figuratively); causatively to kill: - X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy (-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro [-mancer], X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in [no] wise.
As you can see these are different words used in those places where the OT God commands the Israelites to kill/destroy all the inhabitants of the land (this is war) to cleanse it of paganism, than what is the 6th commandments "you shall not murder."
I might add that was the OT laws and now the elect are to obey the spirit of the law that Christ taught.
Mat 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
v. 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'
v. 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.
Hope this is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Kat can you recommend an online source to easily look up the Hebrew/Greek words that our bibles are translated from? A easy to use online concordance.. Or an app for iPhone perhaps?
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largeli, I use E-Sword for my studies, I have the King James Version Bible with Strong's numbers of the Hebrew and Greek. Then it has the Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek for the definitions, but I also use Thayer's with Greek definitions and the Brown-Driver-Briggs' (BDB) for Hebrew definitions. There is also the King James concordance that gives all places the Hebrew or Greek words can be found in Scripture. All this is available from E-Sword http://www.e-sword.net/index.html
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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A few other things also worth considering while 'thinking on these'.
He also sent nations against the children of Israel. They too suffered evils.
WE struggle NOT against flesh and blood. Eph_6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
And the 'weapons' of OUR warfare are not the weapons of their warfare. 2Co 10:3-4 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
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The blue letter bible resource is an easy to use online scriptural reference. Type in a verse and when it comes up, you can click on the verse and Hebrew and Greek references will appear along with the Strong' s reference numbers. At the top is a drop down list where you can change the bible translation version.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm
However, the most important thing is not the Hebrew and Greek. Many language scholars are very learned but cannot understand the Scriptures.
Only God through His Spirit can give understanding. Through His Spirit marvelous treasures are revealed.
In reference to the two witnesses needed for correct understanding, but also to the Spirit in general, always remember this paramount truth:
Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD Almighty. Zechariah 4:6
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Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.
Can I just add that God will redeem those very babies He condemned? Someone on this sight said once, in reference to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", that the 'hate' of God is worth more than all the love of man. Christ died for the innocent that His Father had killed. Kind of makes your head spin.
And let's not forget Amos 3," Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it? "God calls evil what it is even when He is the One doing it. Evil is not necessarily sin.
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Octoberose,
One of the ways I try to cope with God destroying humans is to keep in mind that God knows what would have happened to each person the next day if they had not been killed. So when God destroys a baby by having Israelites stab it with a sword there is very little difference (for the baby) than there would be if the child was suffocated by its mother.
The real difference is the emotion experienced by the one wielding the sword or by the parents of the baby who have to watch. The baby probably dies in less than a minute and would have suffered more if left to starve.
Plus why is the pain of dying of a baby any worse than the pain of dying of an adult? Certainly the adult is more aware of what is coming, while the baby is mostly ignorant of the threat; unless the act is prolonged as in torture to increase the pain.
Sure, we feel a stronger emotion when we hear of the event or see it done, but dying of suffocation in a hospital bed with your lungs filling up is much more dreadful especially when you cannot do anything about it. A dying patient can suffer for hours and days struggling just to take the next breath. Having their heart pierced through with a sword would be merciful.
I know that this is a difficult topic and it is easy to resent what has to be done in the name of justice. Such as the whole adult community having to cast stones at a criminal that has been found guilty of a sin worthy of death. Especially when the parents of the guilty person have to cast the first stones at their own flesh and blood child.
It is necessary and important and a valuable lesson to have to learn how precious each life is to God. That is why, I think, that we are repulsed by the very thought of taking a human life with our own hands. And yet we send our teen age boys and girls into the military to learn how to kill efficiently and without overmuch remorse. Otherwise they would become the victim and the enemy of our nation would make slaves of us all.
That last comment is not to support killing at all, we believers are supposed to be operating under the NEW and better covenant in which even hating another human is sin. However, as a nation we have always taught our youth to kill the enemies of the family that we call a Nation. Strange that we send our teens out to do our dirty work.
I think that is why so many of our soldiers come back into civilian life with P.T.S.D. They just cannot come to terms with what they have been ordered to do in the name of patriotism.
offered in love, Indiana bob
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Question.. Is killing babies evil. Isis kills babies, Herod ordered babies killed, as did Pharaoh and we would all agree that what they did was evil. God commanded babies to be killed and we all agree that it wasn't evil for God to command this... But was it evil for the Israelites to commit the act of killing babies? I believe the answer is yes... But I don't know.
Can I just add that God will redeem those very babies He condemned? Someone on this sight said once, in reference to "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated", that the 'hate' of God is worth more than all the love of man. Christ died for the innocent that His Father had killed. Kind of makes your head spin.
And let's not forget Amos 3," Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it? "God calls evil what it is even when He is the One doing it. Evil is not necessarily sin.
That's a great addition to this thread. I had to go back and corrext one of my previous posts in which I stated "God doesn't do evil." That word "do" is just to ambigious. He creates evil and brings it upon peoples and nations in various forms so I don't think I was correct in saying that. Furthermore, you're right also to point out that evil isn't sin and God takes full responsibility for what is going on in creation. After all, He did die for OUR sins, not His own.
I once emailed ray about this very thing. Oh to find it again!
When I think of evil and how God uses it, I like to remember Joseph. How did his life and the life of everyone end and what did he have to say looking back on the evil that God brought upon him through the deeds of his brothers?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Ah yes, there it is. Isnt that how all the evil in this creation is ultimately used? The end is good and the many people is creation itself!
An experience of evil has Elohim given unto the sons of men to humble them thereby it.
God bless,
Alex
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Wow..
Evil isnt sin.. That right there is it I believe. That is meat to chew on... And savor. What a revelation.
Thanks for the e-sword and blue letter bible links too.
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God does not do evil. He created evil. But evil is not His way.
Satan is the primary agent of evil. That is why God created him. To be the destroyer.
In the Book of Job, we learn it was Satan who used a wind storm to kill Job's 10 children. Which is why Satan is called the prince of the power of the air. Satan is the god of this world. Weather events that kill come from Satan, as do wars and killing and sickness and disease. It was Satan that caused Job's sickness.
God sets the bounds of evil and Satan, or things would be much, much worse if Satan were left to himself.
A sovereign God is responsible for all and will in the end destroy evil and bring about total good.
Jesus was a sin offering and made an atonement for what mankind has suffered by dying the death by torture. Jesus was Antipas, the faithful witness, Who came on behalf of the Father. He will save all.
As for the Amalekites, they were not wiped out by the Israelites. It was an Amalekite that killed King Saul. If they had been wiped out, then how could one kill the King? Am I going too fast for anyone?
Unfortunately for the Israelites, they did not destroy the Amalekites and the other sinful peoples in the promised land.
These people led the Israelites to follow their pagan practices, which included the sacrifice of babies.
The Amalekites were to have their babies killed because they killed babies. Just like the Egyptians had their first born killed because they killed the babies of others. Justice. God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others. This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit.
By not following God's commands, the Israelites brought down the judgment of God upon themselves for the evil practices they learned from the other people in the land.
But be it known, the Great God is not evil and does not do evil, but God turns evil to good....in the appointed times.
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God does not do evil. He created evil. But evil is not His way.
Satan is the primary agent of evil. That is why God created him. To be the destroyer.
In the Book of Job, we learn it was Satan who used a wind storm to kill Job's 10 children. Which is why Satan is called the prince of the power of the air. Satan is the god of this world. Weather events that kill come from Satan, as do wars and killing and sickness and disease. It was Satan that caused Job's sickness.
God sets the bounds of evil and Satan, or things would be much, much worse if Satan were left to himself.
A sovereign God is responsible for all and will in the end destroy evil and bring about total good.
Jesus was a sin offering and made an atonement for what mankind has suffered by dying the death by torture. Jesus was Antipas, the faithful witness, Who came on behalf of the Father. He will save all.
As for the Amalekites, they were not wiped out by the Israelites. It was an Amalekite that killed King Saul. If they had been wiped out, then how could one kill the King? Am I going too fast for anyone?
Unfortunately for the Israelites, they did not destroy the Amalekites and the other sinful peoples in the promised land.
These people led the Israelites to follow their pagan practices, which included the sacrifice of babies.
The Amalekites were to have their babies killed because they killed babies. Just like the Egyptians had their first born killed because they killed the babies of others. Justice. God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others. This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit.
By not following God's commands, the Israelites brought down the judgment of God upon themselves for the evil practices they learned from the other people in the land.
But be it known, the Great God is not evil and does not do evil, but God turns evil to good....in the appointed times.
Very nicely put John. Thank you. I think that wraps it all up pretty well!
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Found the email where Ray say's evil isn't sin
------------------------------------------- http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13677.msg120247.html#msg120247
Dear Alex: I am afraid you are confusing "evil" with "sin." They are certainly not one and the same thing.
I can tell from your wording that you feel that evil is a bad thing when you say: "I know this sounds probably
blasphemous to even think that Evil went through Christ..." As I have stated in my Lake of Fire series, evil
has no moral bias. There is nothing sinful about evil in and by itself. Evil (ra in the Hebrew) means to crush
or break into pieces. And God uses evil for many good purposes. Evil only becomes a sin when men use
it for wrong purposes. In the same way, God created "darkness." There is nothing inherently evil or sinful
about darkness, even though it may not be a pleasant thing. Hope his helps your understanding.
God be with you,
Ray
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God bless,
Alex
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permit me to contribute my token here, as to the specific question of whether the Isrealites were guilty of murder by killing the babies. I don't think God will hold the murder of the babies against the Isrealites because they didn't kill the babies out of a pure thirst for blood but did kill the babies on the God's express orders.
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God does not do evil. He created evil. But evil is not His way.
Satan is the primary agent of evil. That is why God created him. To be the destroyer.
In the Book of Job, we learn it was Satan who used a wind storm to kill Job's 10 children. Which is why Satan is called the prince of the power of the air. Satan is the god of this world. Weather events that kill come from Satan, as do wars and killing and sickness and disease. It was Satan that caused Job's sickness.
God sets the bounds of evil and Satan, or things would be much, much worse if Satan were left to himself.
A sovereign God is responsible for all and will in the end destroy evil and bring about total good.
Jesus was a sin offering and made an atonement for what mankind has suffered by dying the death by torture. Jesus was Antipas, the faithful witness, Who came on behalf of the Father. He will save all.
As for the Amalekites, they were not wiped out by the Israelites. It was an Amalekite that killed King Saul. If they had been wiped out, then how could one kill the King? Am I going too fast for anyone?
Unfortunately for the Israelites, they did not destroy the Amalekites and the other sinful peoples in the promised land.
These people led the Israelites to follow their pagan practices, which included the sacrifice of babies.
The Amalekites were to have their babies killed because they killed babies. Just like the Egyptians had their first born killed because they killed the babies of others. Justice. God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others. This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit.
By not following God's commands, the Israelites brought down the judgment of God upon themselves for the evil practices they learned from the other people in the land.
But be it known, the Great God is not evil and does not do evil, but God turns evil to good....in the appointed times.
I'm sorry, did you say that God commanded the Israelites to do unto the Amalekites' babies what the Amalekites did to their own babies? That's not the reason that God gave to them:
1 Samuel 15:2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt.
This says nothing about the reason being because the people of Amalek sacrificed their own babies. That makes no sense. I'm not saying that they didn't later destroy their own children, or that they hadn't previously done those things, but that is not the reason that God wanted them destroyed, at least initially. It was because Amalek OPPOSED Israel. It says nothing about the Amalek babies being sacrificed.
Also, if the reason that God uses an "eye for an eye" they would have been completely out of order in killing the babies, since up to that point the babies themselves were INNOCENT.
Ray pointed out that the reason God wanted them destroyed is because God knew that these same babies would grow up to become as they would -- Baal worshipers. But that still was not the reason that the Israelites were told to kill them. It was strictly for how Amalek OPPOSED Israel. Period.
Satan is called the "prince of the power of the air" because he stirs up windstorms?
Is it true that the reason God pointed out the righteous Job to Satan was to do to him what Job had done to his own children? Is that what you're saying?
Job never did those things to his own children, so what do you mean God was doing "Justice" to Job? You said, "God deals with people at the level they understand and how they do to others. This understanding comes from thinking about God's ways as guided by the Spirit."
God's spirit has lead you to believe that the cause of Satan dealing those "blows" to Job's CHILDREN was because that is how Job treated his own children and God was just teaching Job on the level that Job understood?
Wow, that just blows me away.
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Hi Gina,
If I may chime in with what I currently understand of the history of this area. I welcome any criticism or input.
I think John is recognizing the fact that the Amekelites dwelt in the land of Canaan (Num 13:29) and shared many customs with the Canaan people due to them both inhabiting the promise land. Molek was the god that these people would sacrifice their children to by causing them to "pass through the fire." (2 Chron 28:3, Jer 19) The closeness of the Amekelites and the Canaanites is evident in the fact that they both joined together to attack Isreal after the Isrealites had departed from Egypt towards that promise land (Num 14:45). God had warned Isreal not to follow after the practices of the people who inhabited the land He was about to give them and to utterly destroy them so that they would not be polluted by their practices (Ex 23: 23, Ex 23:32-33, Numb 33:51-56, Lev 18:21).
Isreal's failure to destroy its enemies would lead them to follow after the pagan gods of the the land, including moloch.
Psalm 106:34-38
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the Lord commanded them:
35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Judges 2:12 And they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the Lord to anger.
I don't think its a stretch of the imagination by any means to believe that the Amekilites participated in the worship of moloch which included the sacrifice of "sons and daughters," and perhaps even infants.
You are right to point out that in that specific instance God did not mention their pagan practices as a reason for their destruction but God had long ago declared judgment on the people of Canaan for their wicked ways.
Genesis 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
Genesis 13:14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 15:13-21
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again [Land of Canaan]: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Or...
Genesis 15:16 (TLB) After four generations they [Isrealites] will return here to this land [Canaan]; for the wickedness of the Amorite nations living here will not be ready for punishment until then.”
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Gina,
If I may chime in with what I currently understand of the history of this area. I welcome any criticism or input.
I think John is recognizing the fact that the Amekelites dwelt in the land of Canaan (Num 13:29) and shared many customs with the Canaan people due to them both inhabiting the promise land. Molek was the god that these people would sacrifice their children to by causing them to "pass through the fire." (2 Chron 28:3, Jer 19) The closeness of the Amekelites and the Canaanites is evident in the fact that they both joined together to attack Isreal after the Isrealites had departed from Egypt towards that promise land (Num 14:45). God had warned Isreal not to follow after the practices of the people who inhabited the land He was about to give them and to utterly destroy them so that they would not be polluted by their practices (Ex 23: 23, Ex 23:32-33, Numb 33:51-56, Lev 18:21).
Isreal's failure to destroy its enemies would lead them to follow after the pagan gods of the the land, including moloch.
Psalm 106:34-38
34 They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the Lord commanded them:
35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Judges 2:12 And they forsook the Lord God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the gods of the people that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the Lord to anger.
I don't think its a stretch of the imagination by any means to believe that the Amekilites participated in the worship of moloch which included the sacrifice of "sons and daughters," and perhaps even infants.
You are right to point out that in that specific instance God did not mention their pagan practices as a reason for their destruction but God had long ago declared judgment on the people of Canaan for their wicked ways.
Genesis 13:12 Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
Genesis 13:14 And the Lord said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 15:13-21
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again [Land of Canaan]: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Or...
Genesis 15:16 (TLB) After four generations they [Isrealites] will return here to this land [Canaan]; for the wickedness of the Amorite nations living here will not be ready for punishment until then.”
God bless,
Alex,
Hi Alex
Sure. I agree that God made it clear what they were doing to their children.
I had an additional observation aftervi posted . It is interesting to me they were not completely wiped out. Think about that for a minute. Whatever God wills will be done. Not halfway either. Remember when God told Adam and eve not to eat of the FRUIT of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and yet He made certain they did? So did God NOT will that the Amalekites be entirely wiped out ? Obviously because if that is what he wanted he would have made sure they were wiped out. It is true. I believe it was because God wanted to show Israel just how depraved they were. Ref Ezekiel chapter 16. And if Israel was MORE depraved, then God would have wiped out their children as welll and I don't see where that happened to them. Isn't that right? Ezekiel chapter 16 is a trip especially the very end.
I'll stop there cause I think I'm bordering on teaching . Feel free to delete this mods iif so. :) And by the way, welcome Joel!
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Thanks for the welcome Gina,
In my study of the scriptures some verses in Judges have done much to help understand why things happened the way they did.
Judges 2:21-23 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died: That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not. Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.
Judges 3:1-7 verse 1-Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
And so on, I see no contradictions if line on line and precept on precept is applied.
GOD is the potter, and we are the clay, all of his judgments are just.
Joel
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Joel, I agree. God's judgments are just. But to hear some tell it, you'd think God didn't have a sound mind.