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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Duane on June 09, 2012, 03:55:19 AM
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Being a B-T'er for more than 2 years now, I certainly have read and assimilated Ray's beliefs on the "stse of the soul" at death.
John 3:13 and Ecc. 9:5 "The dead know nothing--there is no thought--"
Why would Paul be "in a strait between Two'? He doesn't know whether it is better to die or live and keep ministering to them.
Why would he be perplexed? Why would Paul wonder if it is better to be in the GRAVE until the resurrection with no thought--
or be WITH THEM TO TEACH IN PERSON??
It doesn't seem like much of a choice UNLESS (un-sciptural) "To be absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.
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Duane,
That's a great question. Ray explained it so that it makes perfect sense.
[Ray Replies]
Of the millions of times a year that this Scripture in II Cor. 5:8 is quoted, probably only about twice is it ever quoted properly. And THAT is partly the reason why most do not understand this verse.
Paul never said: "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." There is NO SUCH SCRIPTURE.
Let's quote it properly:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather TO BE absent from the body, and TO BE present with the Lord."
Or as Concordant Literal New Testament renders it:
"...rather to be away from home out of the body and to be at home with the Lord."
There is a giant difference between the two words "is" and "and." Just the fact of being "absent or separated" from our bodies, does not automatically equate with being instantaneously "WITH" the Lord.
Keep reading .... http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8827.msg73642.html#msg73642 (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8827.msg73642.html#msg73642)
You remember that in death we know nothing. Well, when we are dead we won't know it; all anyone will ever KNOW (or be aware of) is life. And Paul knew that when he died he wouldn't know it; he would have NO idea of the amount of time that passes, would he? No, he wouldn't because the dead know NOT anything.
Then, when he awakes at the last trump, he will be with the Lord. But because he knew nothing of the time that had passed while he was dead (because the dead know nothing, not even time that passes), it will be as if he closed his eyes one moment and opened them right up the next.
Kind of like when you're driving along in your car and your mind is somewhere else and before you know it you've arrived at your destination. Well, that's what Paul's saying--rather TO BE absent from the body AND [not "is"] to be present with the Lord. That's how quickly it will seem to us, even though years, decades, centuries, etc., have passed. Why? Because we were dead; and the dead know nothing. The only thing we'll ever know (get it?) is LIFE.
(See Ray's article "An Encouraging Word About Death")
I hope that helps a little, Duane.
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Php 1:21-26
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26 That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again. [/i]
As to you your question why he would be betwixt, if you were going through the beatings, and the prison, and the shipwrecks, wouldn't you be a little strait between the two? He was basically saying, I don't know how much more of the tribulation I can take! But I really want to stay on with you because I know it's better for you if I continue on. But I'd really like to be done with all the hardships.
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Agreed. It's not easy to rejoice in tribulation. I think he just wanted to be done.
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That is correct about Paul's struggle.
Even our Lord Jesus wanted the cup he must drink to be over...
"never-the-less not my will but yours be done"
On the cross after all the suffering his last words were, "it is finished", Jn 19:30.
Each of us should expect something similar in our lives. Certainly not as great a trial but enough similar for us to truly appreciate what our Lord went through.
Thus far my suffering has not been so great that I would rather my struggle be over. However, I may feel differently closer to the end.
Indiana Bob
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Gina: I FULLY understood your first post--that is WHY I said the "absent from the body---" UN-scriptural (but I loved reading your explanation in your words--anyway.)
Your second explanation nswered my question in a way that I HADN'T CONSIDERED--and it made sense; as his body/mind was just WORN OUT from the abuse of others. (It TOTALLY went over my head! I hope my ego recovers --as the answer was so obvious!)
Thank you, all! I can ALWAYS count on "B-T'ers" when I have a BIBLE question! :-)