bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rick on July 22, 2016, 03:36:52 PM

Title: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 22, 2016, 03:36:52 PM: Do you believe we are what God says we are and will be regardless of what we wish to be ? Do you believe we are doing exactly what God intended for us to be doing ?

I think there are only two paths a person can walk in which is the law of sin and death or the law of righteousness which is life but either path can not be chosen by the person only by God.

I say that because it's not in man to direct his or her own footsteps.

Ray said one cannot stop smoking cigarettes unless God says one can stop , Ray also said no one can commit suicide unless God says so.

Can anyone think of one thing they do outside of the will or intention of God knowing that every choice we make has a cause behind it ?

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: stello on July 22, 2016, 07:15:39 PM: Hi rick,

Just a few scriptures that touch on your question.

Psalm 37:23 (KJV) "The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way."

Psalm 127:1 "A song of ascents. Of Solomon. Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain."

Daniel 4:17 "The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people."

Daniel 4:32-34 "and you will be driven away from mankind, and your dwelling place will be with the beasts of the field. You will be given grass to eat like cattle, and seven periods of time will pass over you until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes.' 33"Immediately the word concerning Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled; and he was driven away from mankind and began eating grass like cattle, and his body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair had grown like eagles' feathers and his nails like birds' claws. 34"But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation.…"

Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire. I believe Him and take Him at his word. To be honest it is hard for me to see a time when i will be totally free and saved from sin, but God said He will do it. I can't make any choices that are contrary to what God has planned for me immediately/presently and in the future.

Job 13:15 "Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him"

Stello
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: dave on July 22, 2016, 07:36:12 PM: Psa 37:23 By Yahweh are the steps of a master prepared, And in His way shall he delight."
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 22, 2016, 08:05:41 PM: Awesome responses, not having read everything on this site but I'm inclined to believe everything is so fully controlled by God.

Controlled for our learning experience but really, I believe I wake up in the morning at the time God sets.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on July 22, 2016, 08:06:58 PM: Hi Rick,

You cannot do anything outside of God because,

“For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, are ALL THINGS…” (Rom. 11:36).
“For in Him we LIVE, and MOVE, and have our BEING [Gk: ‘we ARE’—we exist]…” (Acts 17:28).

Without God there is nothing. There is no man, there is no universe, there is no will, there is no doing, there is no choosing. No one is ever free from God or His intentions, desires, plans, and will.

I think Ephesians about sums it up nicely:

Ephesians 1:1-15King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

We are clay in the hands of the Potter.

Indeed, by strength shall no man prevail. The zeal of the Lord of Hosts shall do it--By His spirit.

1 Samuel 2:9-10 "He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail. The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the Lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed."

Zechariah 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the Lord of hosts.

Hebrews 8:10-12
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

2 Kings 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall do this.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

We need only be still and wait on Him. He will save us.

Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 22, 2016, 09:50:39 PM: Hi Alex,

Thank you for ur response, I do believe in the sovereigty of God and that all I do be it good or bad is always connected to God.

I don't believe when involved in bad things that God is directly involved but I do believe it was most definitely His intention.

When I do good things I believe God is directly connected to any and all good things and without God there can be no good thing done by the one doing it.

I go out to dinner and I'm given a menu, there are many choices on the menu and so I see something I'm interested in ordering from the menu and when my order comes I do enjoy the food which I had ordered.

Now thinking about the sovereigty of God and understanding that every choice is caused would you credit God for choosing something on the menu over another thing on the menu.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on July 22, 2016, 10:49:21 PM: Quote from: Rick on July 22, 2016, 09:50:39 PM
Hi Alex,

Thank you for ur response, I do believe in the sovereigty of God and that all I do be it good or bad is always connected to God.

I don't believe when involved in bad things that God is directly involved but I do believe it was most definitely His intention.

When I do good things I believe God is directly connected to any and all good things and without God there can be no good thing done by the one doing it.

I go out to dinner and I'm given a menu, there are many choices on the menu and so I see something I'm interested in ordering from the menu and when my order comes I do enjoy the food which I had ordered.

Now thinking about the sovereigty of God and understanding that every choice is caused would you credit God for choosing something on the menu over another thing on the menu.

God bless.

Hi Rick,

As your hypothetical, You are the one who chose the item on the menu and not God. But you didn't 'freely' choose the menu item. You chose based on circumstances and causes beyond your control and your choosing was one God already knew you would make because He is very wise and the origin of all things (The original CAUSE). Hence you are accountable for your choices but God is responsible.

God bless,
Alex

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: dave on July 22, 2016, 11:09:05 PM: :)
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 23, 2016, 04:25:38 AM: Hi Alex,

I understand God is responsible for all things in that He is the creator , if God did not create then nothing could happen . So God is responsible in that sense.

I'm held accountable for for every choice I make because it's actually me who makes the choice , I understand every choice is based on my circumstances and life experiences.

God knows what every choice I make will be because God created man and so He knows how man will respond under certain circumstances.

Two men go to war both men are side by side they are both being fired upon , both men are under the same identical circumstances , one of the two men does not shrink back and is fearless while the other man is frighten and cannot function.

So not every person responds in the same way , is this because both did not have the same identical circumstances from there birth to present day ?

One thing more I would like to add which is Ray did say that every thing we think do and say is ordained by God. If this is so as Ray has said then we must all be following a customized program.

The thoughts are given to me but they are my thoughts the words are given to me but they are my words and the actions are given to me but they are my actions is this how God is responsible but I'm accountable because all these things are worked out through me ?

It's very deep I suppose and interesting too. Gods sovereignty is very important for me to comprehend as this in my eyes is the base of all understanding .

You know Alex as long as man believes he has free will a will independent of Gods will he can never understand the things of God and if he cannot understand the things of God how is it possible for him to believe God?

God has me in a place where I believe my will is and always will be subjected to His will but for what ever reason God has me wrestling with the depths of His sovereigty in my life and how it applies to every day living.

Sometimes in somethings I see things as a me thing and not a God thing as if there is a separation between what I'm doing and what God is doing, I know God is spirit and I cannot detect God through my five senses.

I ask these questions because and people may laugh at me I don't mind if they do but I think sometimes that Gods sovereignty is as such that He causes me to move my fingers when they move that every minute thing about me God has arranged and controls with such great accuracy down to the most minute thing about me.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: cheekie3 on July 23, 2016, 08:42:40 AM: Rick -

Quote
The thoughts are given to me but they are my thoughts the words are given to me but they are my words and the actions are given to me but they are my actions is this how God is responsible but I'm accountable because all these things are worked out through me ?

I am curious about thoughts:

Does anyone know if Ray ever taught about the following:

1. Are the thoughts that are presented to you in your mind, actually yours?

2. Can you monitor and analyze these thoughts that are presented to you in your mind?

3. If you can analyze these thoughts, can these thoughts also be you?

4. If the thoughts are you, who is it that analyzes these thoughts?

5. Are there two of you in your mind, the (presented, created or generated) thoughts, and the one analyzing these thoughts?

6. Does this have anything to do with if two cannot agree they cannot walk together?

7. Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Just a a few thoughts created in my mind.

Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 23, 2016, 11:54:05 AM: Hi George,

Ur questions to me are valid, your last question Amos 3:3 can two walk together except they be agreed. I'm interpreting the term ( walk ) in that scripture as friendships and we all have friends but we do not always agree in all things with our friends but nonetheless we call them friend just the same.

Of those who we meet if we have nothing in common then I would say no we can not walk together.

Are there two of you in your mind , I say in one respect no but in another respect is God not in our mind ? So in that respect I would say yes .

As much as I can tell God gave us a brain so it's us who analyze all thoughts.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Kat on July 23, 2016, 01:00:46 PM: Quote from: Rick on July 23, 2016, 04:25:38 AM
Two men go to war both men are side by side they are both being fired upon , both men are under the same identical circumstances , one of the two men does not shrink back and is fearless while the other man is frighten and cannot function.

So not every person responds in the same way , is this because both did not have the same identical circumstances from there birth to present day ?

Hi Rick, each human being is not born an exact carbon copy of the other. To start with (literally) no two male sperm or female eggs are the same... each human has 23 pairs of chromosomes, each baby would be calculated with 46 chromosome pairs. When you calculate the possible combinations you could have you get 2^23 × 2^23 = 70,368,744,177,664 (70 trillion) possibilities (of course this is not my calculations, I got it off the internet). That is just to give you an idea, but even that is not even taking all the factors into consideration. And that is just the beginning, now factor in all the possible direct responses they receive from parents, environment, society customs, nutrition, etc. and each's individuality is even greater.

What I'm saying is there are so many many factors that God has put into effect in our becoming unique individual that it's pretty much impossible for two people to be the same and therefore our reactions to situations may vary from slight to extremely different.

Quote
One thing more I would like to add which is Ray did say that every thing we think do and say is ordained by God. If this is so as Ray has said then we must all be following a customized program.

The thoughts are given to me but they are my thoughts the words are given to me but they are my words and the actions are given to me but they are my actions is this how God is responsible but I'm accountable because all these things are worked out through me ?

When you say or Ray said, every thing we think do and say is ordained by God... I consider that as meaning 'ordained' in that the way God has designed us and everything that will happens to us, so that we will follow a certain path laid down for us. That is how He has ordained everything to be, that how He has foreknowledge of everything from beginning to end, that is sovereignty.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Even with the vast multitude of differences each of us have, God knows exactly how each will response to every circumstance that we encounter (and the circumstances/causes also have a vast range of possibilities, as God has ordained)... that is His perfect and infinite foreknowledge of 'everything.' Well how can He possible have designed and put all the causes into effect that will bring about the exact results in every situation for trillions of thoughts, words and actions for every single minute of every single day? That is an amazing thought to ponder...

Isa 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Psa 147:5 Great is our LORD, and of great power; There is no limit to His understanding.

We truly cannot phantom the greatness of our heavenly Father, He knows the number of hairs on every bodies head (Luke 12:7) and that continually changes. He knows the number of stars in the heavens and has a name for each of them, that in itself is incredulous, as I shortly forget the names of most people I actually meet and talk to.

Psa 147:4 He counts the number of the stars; He calls them all by name.

We can't help but underestimate our great and glorious God, because He is so far beyond anything we can possible imagine.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 23, 2016, 02:24:30 PM: Hi Kat,

Your so down to earth with ur answers and was I delighted to read your response because in most things that you said I'm in full agreement with and can identify with.

If it's ok with you and you don't mind I would be interested in disgusting something Ray touched upon when talking about circumstances that are in our life. So here goes my question.

Ray said if we had the same circumstances as Adolf Hitler we would of done the same thing. I agree people are not identical but do have basically the same make up .

I'm taking what Ray said literally and I know you must of read his statement too and I'm also aware you have read more of Rays writing than I have, Lord willing, I'll get there too.

Do you think Rays meaning on that statement is exactly what he meant even though each person responds differently?

Your last statement you made is so true.

Kat you said,

We can't help but underestimate our great and glorious God, because he is so far beyond anything we can possible imagine.

That is so true.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Kat on July 23, 2016, 02:43:48 PM: I do understand where Ray was coming from with that comment, and why he made it... 'my' assessment at this point is that to be Hitler I would think you would have to be born that exact person and God did ordain that person to be born at that time and walk the path he did.

Actually Hitler did have a brother, you would assume he was raised pretty much the same way Hitler was, here is a brief excerpt from Wikipedia about him in an article about Hitler's family.

Alois Jr. continued to manage his restaurant throughout the duration of the war. He was arrested by the British, but released when it became clear he had played no role in his brother's regime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_family

It's all interesting though.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: octoberose on July 24, 2016, 01:57:58 AM: There's not much I can add to Kat's wise words but this tags along with it.
Recently my brother gave his DNA to 23 and Me for genetic information. He was just wanting to know a little more of our heritage. When I first saw his results I assumed mine would be exactly the same- but in reading further I found out that my DNA will be uniquely mine. Of course the fact that we are brother and sister would show up, but even though we have the same parents and the same heritage, all the thousands and thousands of choices just in our two parents will make me different and percentages will be different in me than in him. (Maybe I'll have less Neanderthal!) Ha- they really do have that in the mix.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 24, 2016, 01:02:58 PM: Hi Kat,

Your reasoning is strong and I'm inclined to believe you, you brought Rays meaning home to me, it's difficult to explain but I understood what Ray was saying but ur explanation really Helps.

Here we have two brothers, one wants to dominate the world regardless of how many will die and the other brother wants to feed people . I agree that it's interesting.

This must also apply to the very jobs we all have . There is nothing in everyone's life that God has not approved of so one can concluded God totally dominates His entire creation as He is totally sovereign over all things right down to our very yes or no.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Dave in Tenn on July 25, 2016, 12:38:59 AM: Quote from: Rick on July 24, 2016, 01:02:58 PM
...There is nothing in everyone's life that God has not approved of so one can concluded God totally dominates His entire creation as He is totally sovereign over all things right down to our very yes or no.

Simple Definition of approve

: to believe that something or someone is good or acceptable

: to officially accept (an idea, action, plan, etc.)

I don't mean to nit-pick, but why would you put it like that? What has God "approved"? Is He up in heaven stamping His approval on our choices?

And does He really "approve" of everything? By that simple definition, why should He be long-suffering toward us? That's an honest question. He hasn't finished with us yet.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 25, 2016, 03:48:46 AM: Hi Dave,

You say you don't mean to nit pick but you are and I don't mind. It's all about the learning curve with me, Nothing happens in this age that does not have Gods approval , it seems simple to me.

Perhaps it's just a play on words you disagree with but I'm convince nothing happens unless God says so and so to me God must approve of everything that is happening or it won't happen.

Do you believe Gods long suffering is a result of someone doing anything that somehow took God by surprise and He can't do anything about it ? the God I know controls everything and there is nothing that can ever take God by surprise . Gods long suffering is God enduring what He created until His plan has come to a conclusion then so won't His long suffering as well.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Kat on July 25, 2016, 10:32:16 AM: Hi Rick, I too noticed that comment about God 'approved,' it's almost sounds to me like saying we make a choice and God comes along and okays it or has allowed 'our' decision... it's kinda like giving ourselves credit for the decision. Consider if God has brought something about -caused- it in the first place, then saying He approves, doesn't seem to recognize Him as that first cause. Now I do not believe that is what you were saying, but getting down to the meaning of words, it can come across that way.

Yes this is nit picking, but it does get to that if we really want to nail these things down.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 25, 2016, 11:47:54 AM: Hi Kat,

Everything in life to me is according to the counsel of God , in my mind or understanding God obviously approved His own Council .

For anyone to think they make a choice or decision and then God either approves it or rejects it is to believe they have free will and that God is not sovereign.

I've started enough threads on this site and made many comments concerning my basic beliefs about my understanding of the sovereignty of God that anyone reading what I say should know what my meaning is, kinda like personal recognition where one does not need a picture ID to know that person is who they say they are.

When I had first read Daves comment on the word approved I thought to myself how can he say that knowing that God is sovereign and nothing in my belief tells me otherwise.

This website to me is not about any given individual but about Gods truth and a moderators job is solemnly upholding these truths.

Kat , you understand me and know what my meaning was and because of your reply I now understand in a clearer way what Dave's meaning was.

Words have meaning and now I understand I should of have chosen my wording in a more articulate way to preserve the truths of this forum and now I see that is what Dave was doing but I did not pick up on that at the time I replied to his response.

If it takes nit picking to bring out a truth I don't mind at all and if it takes nit picking for me to convey my meaning in an articulate way then let it be so.

I thank you Kat for intervening and also I thank you Dave too for bringing up my error which could be deceiving to someone new on this forum.

God bless you moderators and keep the good work up.

God bless .
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on July 25, 2016, 01:57:48 PM: Approve is a very poor choice of wordage and causes some serious problems in our understanding. You say there is no choice we make that God does not approve and yet God disapproves of rape, murder, stealing, lying etc... etc.. and still man chooses this over good the vast majority of the time. The sovereignty of God does not require Him to approve every choice because He's created man in such a condition and many forces that influence man to make choices without His needing to directly approval of them. But simply because God doesn't approve of sinful choices doesn't mean He didnt know we would make those choices, that this experience isn't going exactly according to plan, nor does it absolve Him of responsibility or original causality of all creation. God tempts no man and He himself does not directly cause us to sin (that would be your 'Approve' argument) nor does He directly do evil.

So I agree with dave, there is a big problem in your saying God approves all choices man makes or they wouldnt happen. Thats simply not true but it is true that if God did not plan that man should do the evil he does then man would not do it. Man is not free to operate independantly of God's desires, intents, and purposes.

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 25, 2016, 02:16:39 PM: Hi Alex,

Did I not clarify my as you say big problem afterwards ? If so why keep it going ? I would expect that kind of response from Christendon not from Bt. Remember forgiveness is the thing to do for it covers a multitude of sins .

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on July 25, 2016, 05:31:27 PM: Quote from: Rick on July 25, 2016, 02:16:39 PM
Hi Alex,

Did I not clarify my as you say big problem afterwards ? If so why keep it going ? I would expect that kind of response from Christendon not from Bt. Remember forgiveness is the thing to do for it covers a multitude of sins .

God bless.

Its good to discuss these things Rick. It allows us to all be of like mind and speak the same thing. I have certainly benefited from this in the past. You're not the only one who reads these forums. You may understand but others might not. Iron sharpens Iron. There is no need to find offence where none is intended. All discussion is meant for the edification of the body, you, myself, and all those God has called and chosen.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Porter on July 25, 2016, 11:57:30 PM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on July 25, 2016, 12:38:59 AM
Quote from: Rick on July 24, 2016, 01:02:58 PM
...There is nothing in everyone's life that God has not approved of so one can concluded God totally dominates His entire creation as He is totally sovereign over all things right down to our very yes or no.
Simple Definition of approve
: to believe that something or someone is good or acceptable

: to officially accept (an idea, action, plan, etc.)

I don't mean to nit-pick, but why would you put it like that? What has God "approved"? Is He up in heaven stamping His approval on our choices?

And does He really "approve" of everything? By that simple definition, why should He be long-suffering toward us? That's an honest question. He hasn't finished with us yet.

Being a nit-picker myself, I couldn't help but to notice you were referring to the individual choices we make, to which I totally agree. So then looking at the whole of God's plan for humanity which involves everyone experiencing evil and partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; God did indeed "approve" it and saw that it was not only good, but very good.

Gen_1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Agreed that God is long-suffering towards us, and I think that is in part because He can see us as we will be after all is said and done when we are finally in His spiritual image.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So I guess my point is that I agree the evil choices we make are not good or worthy of approval, but that the ultimate plan of God to use evil for saving us is good.

This is just me throwing out some possible answers to your "honest question" Dave. Not trying to contradict you as I know what you meant. Was just trying to present the "flip-side" if you know what I mean. Not that you prolly already didn't know it, but maybe for those that didn't.

It causes me to wonder if this is how God sees it this way all the time. Is this what in part enables Him to love us and be patient with us despite all our shortcomings? Is this how and why we are to love others with the knowledge of how they will all turn out?

I know we are not there yet, and there is still the work of getting the sin out of the sinner. I have a feeling God is pretty secure in His foreknowledge and plan for us all and quite possibly already sees us as we will be.

As always thanks Rick for your thought provoking topics and questions. :) And yes I believe everything is going according to Gods perfect plan. And here's one of my favorite quotes from Ray in an email that may or may not be relevant to the topic and put's it in greater perspective for me.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#sovern

I have been enjoying your open letters to the evangelists Kennedy and Hagee. I would like to know more about the sovereignty of God. It is hard for me to comprehend that we have no free will that can come against God's intention and that everything that happens is His intention. I have a friend who tries to talk to me about the sovereignty of God and I have difficulty understanding him. When we are talking about any subject at all, he always interjects that whatever is happening is God's will and we should just "flow" with it.

But if that be true, why should we criticize or judge anything at all? If God is in complete control and is willing everything, what difference does it make if certain ministers are teaching false things? Why correct Kennedy and Hagee? Are they not just doing what God intends? Are they not just being used for God's good intent?
It is all beyond me.

Mary
[Ray Replies]
Dear Mary:

Thank you for your comments. At least it is evident that you are using your brain and thinking.

It only seems confusing for you now, Mary. It is a GIANT revelation to come to realize that God is sovereign. If one thinks about, however, it is even a GREATER quantum leap into total foolishness to believe that GOD is NOT SOVEREIGN!!!

If God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my thirteen year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not a god)!

How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in? Why does He allow it to continue? If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way? As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES? Weren't things bad ENOUGH?

The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom. Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?

Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?

I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".

Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!

And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!

These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, he really is. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!

So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men like Dr. Kennedy and Pastor Hagee who do not understand God's simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.
There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily is "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).

Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).

Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.

Hope that helps your understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray
-----------------------------
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Extol on July 26, 2016, 12:21:49 AM: Nice to hear from you Porter! That bolded line in Ray's email is one of my favorite quotes of his. 8)
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: cheekie3 on July 26, 2016, 03:55:39 AM: Porter -

Great Post.

Thank You.

I particularly like this quote from Ray:

Quote
There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.

Kind Regards.

George
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: rick on July 26, 2016, 06:32:48 PM: Hi porter,

Thanks for ur reply and also for understanding my meaning as Kat has too, good to hear from you again.

God bless.
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: Chris on July 27, 2016, 04:40:23 AM: Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on July 22, 2016, 08:06:58 PM

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

We need only be still and wait on Him. He will save us.

Isaiah 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

God bless,
Alex

Thanks Alex.. this applies perfectly to my present situation
Title: Re: The sovereignty of God.
Post by: RMA_Guy on August 05, 2016, 10:59:18 AM: Great words of wisdom as usual Kat! :)