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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: pawz on January 01, 2008, 09:48:18 AM

Title: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 01, 2008, 09:48:18 AM
hello, I  have not posted here before - or maybe once. Have tended to be 'off' Christian Forums for some time as  too often you come away with a bad impression, and no answers. However, I look in from time to time, and today I  clicked on my bookmark for here and remembered you as a 'peaceful spot', so here I am :)

I am a Christian Universalist btw.

I have been reading the first party of Ray's lake of fire series, and copied it to Word to go through it at my leisure so I can absorb  the truths I find there - but one thing bothers me and it is getting in the way of my concentration. It could be that Ray answers this issue elsewhere. if so, my apologies for an unnecessary post.

I get the  strong impression from Revelation 19:17 on that the  scene is being set for Armageddon and that the location is  earth, and that this is where the beast and the false prophet are thrown into a lake of fire (v20).  How does this fit in with Ray's teaching I wonder?
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Chris R on January 01, 2008, 10:09:59 AM
Hello

Please take into consideration, Most everything you read in Revelations is not literal, but is a symbol.

Rev 19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is not a "literal" sword, And Christ does not "sit" on a literal "horse", these are symbols, that signify certain things, I cannot possibly answer your question, it would take hundreds of pages, Keep reading the articles, they will help you see some truth in this matter.

Chris R
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 01, 2008, 10:40:17 AM
I am disappointed that you cannot answer my question more fully Chris - but thank you anyway.
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Kat on January 01, 2008, 11:06:26 AM

Hi Pawz,

Glad you have joined in with a question  :)
But I must say you question is very broad.  As Craig said you have to understand the symbolic meaning of things in Revelation.  As the Sword in Christ's month is the word of Truth, so how does He kill people with it?  By destorying their flesh, another symbol for our carnal ways.
Now read this verse about Christ's return, with these symbols in mind.

Jer 25:31  'A clamor has come to the end of the earth, Because the LORD has a controversy with the nations. He is entering into judgment with all flesh; As for the wicked, He has given them to the sword,' declares the LORD."

When you start to understand all the symbols of the Scripture then you can put many Scripture into proper context.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Craig on January 01, 2008, 11:54:05 AM
Pawz,

Don't be disappointed, I would answer if I could, but the fact is, I don't know. :-\

I do have my ideas and speculations but I won't post them because I as a moderator do not like to see speculation bandied about things we have no definitive answer to.  Truth, is like clear water and speculation is like a pin drop of food coloring.  Throw a little of it in and the water is no longer clear.

I realize the moderators take some heat for not allowing certain posts to continue but we walk a thin line to try and keep the truth clear.

Blessings
Craig
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 01, 2008, 12:14:58 PM
Craig, Kat, appreciate your kind encouragement. Kat I will ponder your words - but I still have a 'but' in regard to that passage, simply because it seems to be talking about a literal earthly event and a literal consequence on earth - that is how it reads to me at present. However, I did not come on here to cause problems, so I will say no more. Thank you both. :-\
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: rjsurfs on January 01, 2008, 12:28:20 PM
Hi Pawz,

Your sincere questions to gain understanding are not a problem at all... and I understand that many of the answers you see here appear short and maybe even as if people are withholding information... but it is as Chris stated... that it has taken hundreds of pages and many hours of study to bring many of us to understanding... I also believe that understanding often requires a journey of time as the meat of God's Word can not be immediately swallowed as milk, but must be chewed.

Keep in mind what you read at the beginning of the Lake of Fire series... I will quote a small excerpt:

"Most of my life I believed that the book of Revelation was a literal prophecy about events that will happen at the END OF THE WORLD! Prophesies that had virtually no meaning for those who have lived during the past two thousand years since it was written. But for most of my life, I WAS IN ERROR!

Now for a most important understanding. Just how was this revelation to John to be recorded and preserved? Notice it:

"...and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev. 1:1)

What does it mean to "signify?" Certainly this prophecy of the revelation or unveiling of Christ was written down (ver. 19), but it means more than just that. To "signify" has to do with signs and symbols. From my Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary p. 1541, first definition of signify:

"to make known by signs or words"

First definition of sign:

"any symbol ...that represents an idea"

That which, being external, represents or signifies something internal or spiritual.

The synonym for sign is: symbol.

There is no mistaking this language. The book of Revelation is written in SYMBOLS! So what is written externally, on paper, in symbols, has a SPIRITUAL meaning and application."

Keep reading... I have read the LoF several times through (while studying scripture) and I gain more understanding each time.

Bobby
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 01, 2008, 01:02:32 PM
member
Welcome Pawz. 

Recently my little boy and I were talking about biblical matters and a christian evangelist (a paid staff member in an evangelists position at a christian church bldg) had asked me what it was that enlightened and why did I leave that church (the same denomination he is in right now), I told him that I would answer his question as to why I am enlightened, but I will not discuss/debate/argue anthing else with him (he kept wanting me to answer why I didn't believe in this that and the other anymore.)  After weeks of him rwanting me to answer all of his questions and him  really not wanting to know what made me enlightened; then I had to tell him that we cannot have the unity in spirit if he does not do as he said he would do and read BT web site where it will clearly show how I got enlightened.  He skimmed the subjects and came back and wanted me to answer all of his questions still; so, I told him that that would literally take years to answer all of his questions (and I could answer them), but that if (again) he would read and STUDY the info, he will find out most of what I believe and why I don't believe what I used to beleive as well as how I got enlightened.  Ultimately, he just wanted to argue his position and beliefs, not what it was that enlightened me...so, I have not heard from him since.)

 I do not believe that you want to argue, but, truly, just about everyone who has stayed for a long period of time on this site as members has read and studied the materials and has come away with nearly all of their questions answered via the info on the site....

Blessings to you brother, in your studies here....it will be the best journey in this life!!!! :D   


Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 01, 2008, 01:46:04 PM
OK Hebrewroots, thank you for taking trouble, I will follow your advice in the hope that  sooner or later it will answer my query - sooner I hope, and Bobby, yes, there is a degree of frustration building - but I will read on and see how I progress.
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 02, 2008, 02:20:20 AM
Pawz,
Relax and take your time and let the spirit minister to your heart and mind; we don't want you to choke on this meat here @ Bt; the holy spirit is a gentlemn, in that he will only feed you what you are able to digest...and not any more. ;)  Let us know what you are learning!
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 02, 2008, 06:53:02 AM
hebrewroots, good morning (UK). I have read through Rays  three articles on LoF and  find that so much of what he has found in scripture is what I have found also. It makes me wonder what he would say about other portions of scripture, notably Genesis Chapter 1.  I dislike the adversarial tone he writes in, so I intend to copy his writings to Word and then  reduce them to scriptural essentials. I cannot say  my questions have been answered yet - and of course other questions are raised in the reading - but that is OK, I can wait.  How much we agree that the treasures of scripture are worth digging for! Gotta go out now.  Be back later :)
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 02, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
Hi Pawz,
I had written down all of my questions/doubts once I began reading Rays papers; and low and behold everyone of them got answered by the end of reading all that he had.  Of course one needs to always go back b/c there is soo much info,but, all of his info overlaps at some point.  So, maybe you can write down all of your questions and mark them off one at a time and then whatever you can't find or understand, then those will be the questions to pose to the forum.  (Even what has been written in  the forum goes into detail if you can't understand it ifrom Rays' papers...)   


Pawz,in regard to your concern about Rays' tone... if you were in Rays position, how would you fare in comparisson?  I am not saying that he may not come across that way to the newbies here, but, once you read all of his info and hear him on the audios, you get to understand the mans' heart.   Personally, I think he is doing an amazing job!  I couldn't say the same for myself given his same position;  I mean, I would think that at least 90 to 95% of his emails and correspondence ARE HATE MAIL; ARGUMENTIVE; ACCUSATORY; LIES; THREATS; AND ACCUSING HIM OF BEING SATAN; ACCUSING HIM OF CONTRADICTIONS; AND TELLING HIM THAT HE IS GOING TO HELL....AND THE MAJORITY (PROBABLY ABOUT 98%) IS ALL FROM... 'CHRISTIANS'...!!!!  (I personally would let mey flesh get in the way if I had to deal with this kind of unrelenting negativity on a daily basis...he does an AWESOME job of keeping his cool underfire; he is the most dedicated warrior for truth that I have ever in my entire life had the priviledge of knowing! ;)
Shalom,
Susan
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Alberta_Guy on January 02, 2008, 03:12:51 PM
Could not have said it better Susan!
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Craig on January 02, 2008, 03:15:12 PM
I had written down all of my questions/doubts once I began reading Rays papers; and low and behold everyone of them got answered by the end of reading all that he had.  Of course one needs to always go back b/c there is soo much info,but, all of his info overlaps at some point.  So, maybe you can write down all of your questions and mark them off one at a time and then whatever you can't find or understand, then those will be the questions to pose to the forum.  (Even what has been written in  the forum goes into detail if you can't understand it ifrom Rays' papers...)   

Susan,

That is a great idea and one I wish people would follow through on, myself included.  When I first found Ray's writings I had a bunch of questions that I  posted and asked about.  Only to find out how foolish I was because the answers were right there in front of me all along.  I still have questions on things Ray has, and has not, covered and I have answered most in my own mind but will not post or give opinions to things Ray has not covered, because I am not a teacher and I could be wrong.

Craig
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Phil3:10 on January 02, 2008, 03:27:52 PM
Hello Pawz,
I was called out of the institutional, organized, denominational church system by GOD. I found out after years of searching that GOD was not there. GOD directed me to Ray's BT site. I have not found all the answers to my growing list of questions but I have found many never known nor taught in Christianity. I have spent hundreds of hours looking at many sites and still come back regularly to BT. I always feel the spiritual solid food that I receive at BT is helping me find the answers to my questions. Ray would be the first to admit that he is not perfect nor does he have all the answers  I don't think that any man alive has all the answers and if he said he did I would run as fast as I could away from him.  The Spirit of God alone can reveal truth. Study, ask, knock  and you will receive. Don't depend on man for answers. Read John 8, 31-36. Jesus simply says to continue in HIS word, then indeed you are HIS disciples indeed and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free indeed. All of John 6 reveals the truths of GOD as HE draw and teaches HIS truths.

I try not to have too much confidence in anything that a man says. However, I have found very little that I disagree with on BT. This is not to say that Ray or BT is perfect.  It is GOD who continues to work in me toward HIS promise to save me. HE uses many sources to accomplish HIS promise. I trust in HIM to finish HIS work in me.
Phil3:10
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 02, 2008, 05:52:39 PM
Thank you Alberta Guy and Craig. 

Craig and all, I too still have questions that I would like to have answered, but the BIGGIES (like NO HELL; NO TITHING; THE CHURCH IS TODAYS' SPIRITUAL HARLOT/THE BABYLONIAN SYSTEM; THE CHURCH IS DECIEVED AND THEY SERVE A DIFF GOD THAN THE BIBLES' GOD!, FREE WILL,  ETC...) are what really matters, and those biggies (thankfully, to Ray and those of you here) have helped me to get them answered.  (Ha, I remember writing down those same important questions when I was searching (ONLY half heartily) for the truth back then and then I began worshipping as a Messianic and FINALLY 10 years later  (when I had been dragged by the Lord out of the Babylonian church system)...still ALL of those important questions had still not been answered...ugh!)  As I said earlier, it was not till I got here that I was able to check off one answer at a time...and, those answers were not just head knowledge; they were LIFE, PEACE, TRUTH, SPIRIT; AND IT LITERALLY CHANGED MY ENTIRE OUTLOOK ON EVERYTHING PERTAINING TO LIFE AND GODLINESS! :D I have been set free indeed~  :D PRAISE GOD!
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 02, 2008, 06:30:48 PM
Phil, that is about where I am too I guess, and your  words have reassured me.

Hebrewroots (Susan), my words were not intended as  criticism against Ray - I realise he has much to contend with, I have seen how hateful (literally) some Christians can be when their own understanding is challenged, and I know that I could not  carry on under such an onslaught of hate and vitriol as he has to cope with. He is driven on despite all that can be chucked at him by his own convictions and desires to  get the truth out there among so many sheep that have lost their way and are misled by their leaders,so I think. To be  blunt, Ray the person does not interest me, but if he can  fit a few more of the pieces into place, he has my willing attention, but in my study of his explanations and teachings his human responses get in the way, so I will edit them out.

I said I would be back today, and that was my intention - to do a bit more studying and then come on here if I had anything useful to say - but you know how mans ( and womens) plans go awry; We spent the morning  trying to find a place in Chichester selling cookers, and did, eventually, then when we got back someone phoned up with a sick computer,so  he came up and stayed a while before  I could get on with fixing it, and then after dinner tonight I had to clean out the recess where the old cooker stands ( and ladies, don't we know what a mucky job THAT can be! So apologies, I am too tired to do any more study now. Brain goes to bed by 8pm. I probably didn't need to give you all such a detailed 'day in the life of pawz' scenario, but while I feel a bit of a stranger here, I want to be known as a friend, despite my waryness of Ray and not knowing 'the rules' as yet. hope you understand.

Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on January 02, 2008, 06:56:59 PM
I don't agree with anything you say or infer about Ray Pawz. He is the kindest, bravest, sweetest man and it shows through his teachings that lack hypocrisy,forked tongues and deceits that are all too common in the false teachings techniques of heretics and sooth sayers :)

I hope you get to know Ray better as you continue to study his deep insights into the ways and purposes of God.

Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Truth101 on January 02, 2008, 06:58:25 PM
Hi Pawz.

I felt the same way 5 years ago when first coming to bible truths. I was weary of any teaching from anyone since my search for an honest disciple of Christ was hard pressed to find. Infact I had never found one but knew there must me since the original disciples existed and that church was the church Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against (maybe because they are so hard to find :)).

You are correct that it is God that leads. We first try the spirits to see if they are of God and that is where you are right now. Like me You are very weary of any teachers and truly you should be. I never found sound doctrine in the church and I came to realise there just isnt any. I now know that God is leading Ray because my questions get answered and in finding these fundimental truths on BT I am able for the first time in my life to seek and find most of the time on my own the answers I am looking for because God is the one leading me to the truth, not some guy on a pulpit who only has an element of truth in which to decieve you into lies, leaving you more confused than when you first began searching for truth. Whether it is intentional or not.

Im glad you're here. We are all babes here learning to chew. I think everyone on this forum double checks everything Ray teaches to make sure it is truth. I do and I believe we should all do that. The more you study the BT web site the more you see that God is leading Ray and in doing so we are also lead. Maturity does take a lifetime and I'm only 37 so I got a long way to go myself.

God bless,
               Dave



Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 02, 2008, 08:27:01 PM
Dave, again you have helped me. It is true about being weary. I know my little church is not where I am on so many key issues, good and loving folk though they are, and being a black sheep among a flock of white is discouraging. Coming on forums, by and large has done me little good also - and yet we keep on seeking!

Well, it is late, but I am moved to go do a little bit more study before I turn in, so I will say no more.:)

Arcturus, trusting people  comes from knowing them. I don't know Ray, yet, so please  be patient with me. The way we  find out about each other, if that is allowed, is to share. I am feeling very disheartened with all things Christian at present - to the point of tears, but here I am. I can lurk rather than share if the rest of you would prefer - until I get a clearer picture of you all and of Ray.

Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 02, 2008, 08:30:19 PM

I have been reading the first party of Ray's lake of fire series, and copied it to Word to go through it at my leisure so I can absorb  the truths I find there - but one thing bothers me and it is getting in the way of my concentration. It could be that Ray answers this issue elsewhere. if so, my apologies for an unnecessary post.

I get the  strong impression from Revelation 19:17 on that the  scene is being set for Armageddon and that the location is  earth, and that this is where the beast and the false prophet are thrown into a lake of fire (v20).  How does this fit in with Ray's teaching I wonder?


Hi Pawz,

There certainly is a lot to study, absorb and meditate on, what can really inhibit us on our quest for spiritual wisdom is impatience, this can and will turn into frustration if left unchecked. By that I mean to attempt under our own power to understand everything now, that is not the way God works, in His plan and purpose for us is to develop a spiritual patience that is but another step in our spiritual growth.

I have seen many come through the Forum who after a quick review of the articles on Bible Truths come here with question after question that really are answered quite thoroughly in the articles, sometimes a member can rephrase or underline a point made but the scriptural meat is bountiful in these papers and they must be studied independently with our bibles at hand, we cannot gain wisdom by attempting to do it with the "Readers Digest" versions.

One thing (of many) that used to bother me about the (traditional) teachings on "the beast," "antichrist," and "end times" scenarios is the fact that all the time between Christ's ministry and resurrection seemed to be a vast wasteland, the only people that seemed to count whether it be for good or bad either lived in the time of Jesus or at the time of His return, "the last days." I had a difficult time with this and all the "Christian" books on the subject muddied the already murky water of my understanding.

The following helped me immensely.

This is a very small portion of "The Beast Within" http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html


Everyone in religious circles is looking for the beast, OUT THERE somewhere. If we are to find the beast OUT THERE, we might question whether he was ever IN HERE? That there "is, was, and will be" a beast OUT THERE, I have no doubt. But of what great concern is that to us? The only beast we need to concern ourselves with is the beast "within," "the man of sin." Just as the many-member beast comes "up out of the sea" [of humanity], we too came up out of the sea of humanity.

Ten times in Revelation, Jesus Christ is spoken of as "The First and the Last," The Beginning and the Ending," the "One Who IS, WAS, and WILL BE." Do we think that the Scriptures speak these ten times in vain? Is the beast of Revelation something with which only the last generation at the end of this age needs concern itself? Was the book of Revelation written for the last generation only? Of course not. The book of Revelation, which is the testimony of Jesus Christ was given to the Seven Churches of Asia—Asia representing the whole world and seven representing the complete and total church.

Some will retort: "Beast? What beast? I don’t see any beast within myself. I am not perfect by any means, but I am certainly not a beast." We shall see.

Please read this article after reading Part 13 (WHO IS THE BEAST?) http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

I can only say it really opened my eyes, this had bothered me from the time I was about 17 until I read it and reread these articles at age 51, 2 1/2 years ago. You are correct in saying this battle rages on earth (as well as heavenly places), in every believer's life in every generation at some point, that will hold true in this age or the one to come as we know all creation is to become not only believers but worshippers, Sons and Daughters of the Living God!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

 


Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 02, 2008, 08:36:56 PM
thank you Joe,  I will go there tomorrow.. appreciate your  sincere efforts to help, that counts big :)
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: dave on January 02, 2008, 09:33:40 PM
This is a first time for me. Im lost on how to ask a question so Im trying this,only lost on how to use the computer and posting. I believe and have accepted for some time Rev. is a book of symbols.  My question is, what about the book og Genisis, esp. 1-5   
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: Kat on January 02, 2008, 09:57:43 PM

Hi Micah,

I'm glad you have joined us  :)

Look at the top right of the board you choose and you will see these
'Mark Read  |  Notify  |  New Topic  |  Post new poll' 
To ask a question or start a new topic pick 'New Topic,' then type out your question and give the subject of the question and post.
You should go to the 'Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings' board and tell us a little about yourself, that a good ice breaker.

You ask this; what about the book og Genisis, esp. 1-5   
Ray is working on a paper for Genesis, the days of creations, for a conference later this year. 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 02, 2008, 11:17:51 PM
Hi Pawz,
We love you Brother!!!!

God bless you!
Susan
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 03, 2008, 06:38:10 AM
Susan, hello back and thank you. :) I am feeling chirpier today. Off now to do a bit  more on  the Revelation study. :)
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 03, 2008, 08:28:40 AM
thank you Joe,  I will go there tomorrow.. appreciate your  sincere efforts to help, that counts big :)

You are very welcome Pawz,

If you have any questions from/about the articles please toss them out here, there are quite a few folks willing and able to lend a hand and give an insight.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 03, 2008, 11:09:14 AM
Will do Joe. I have  just finished going more carefully through part 1 of LofF and am now mulling it over, pondering, seeing where it fits, see where I have to adapt and modify my views, what it then infers for other parts of my understanding, etc.

Have to say, have no great problems so far. One teensy criticism in that I would have thought it would be better to get the meaning of the verb for  'signify' direct from the Greek sources (same word in Alexandrian, majority texts and Textus Receptus), and see how the word is used in other places in scripture, rather than to use even such a respected book as Websters (or any other) to define its meaning - but  overall I have to say 'yes Ray, I agree with you ( and how can I not) that the book of Revelation IS a book of symbols, and that it is 'crooked thinking' to assign symbolism and figure to one part and insist on literalcy (is that a real word or did I just invent it?) in another.'
 :)

Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hillsbororiver on January 03, 2008, 01:32:36 PM

- but  overall I have to say 'yes Ray, I agree with you ( and how can I not) that the book of Revelation IS a book of symbols, and that it is 'crooked thinking' to assign symbolism and figure to one part and insist on literalcy (is that a real word or did I just invent it?) in another.'
 :)


Literalcy?  ???

Works for me Pawz!  ;D

Peace,

Joe
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 03, 2008, 05:45:31 PM
thanks Joe. :) Had to go out  and fetch a poorly computer back tonight, and will be working on it from tomorrow, so won't be able to get my teeth into much  more of Ray's writings for a bit, but when I do come back on here I will start a new thread as this one is getting a bit long. Night-night all (yawn) :)
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: aktikt on January 07, 2008, 07:45:54 PM
Pawz,

You have me remembering my own journey when I first came across Ray's site.  I had been searching for some time and was feeling miserable all the time.  I was tormented by freewill and predestination which had hell as a backdrop.  I couldn't get my mind around how free will could exist at the same time as predestination with hell as a consequence.  Hell made God out to be a monster and I hated God for what I thought He was.  Boy, was I wrong...

The joy I found when hearing the Truth was deep and profound especially in contrast to the depression and loathing I was feeling.   Don't give up, you're in for some jawdropping truths.

Josh



Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: hebrewroots98 on January 07, 2008, 08:26:00 PM
Right on Josh, jaw dropping for sure :-\ :o :D
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: gmik on January 07, 2008, 08:44:37 PM
Hey, welcome Micah.  You sorta snuck in there.  Please don't be shy.  we love newbies! :D
Title: Re: lake of fire on earth?
Post by: pawz on January 09, 2008, 08:50:47 PM
Hello folks, as this thread is still active, just wanted to say sorry I haven't got back to you ( and hello Micah :) ).  Computer jobs are like London busses - they always come close together, and since I  wrote, saying one had come in and I would not be able to  study Ray's teachings for a couple of days, I have had several others (I fix them for free for all the folk in our church, and a few outside). I am beginning to flinch when the phone goes now. But I will be back to start a new thread - want to talk about us being made in God's image and about  'children of Satan' and how it all fits together... :)

night-night now