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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Mzantsi on April 17, 2023, 07:58:26 PM
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Mat 24:23 (20cNT) And, at that time, if any one should say to you ‘Look! here is the Christ!’ or ‘Here he is!’, do not believe it;
Mat 24:24 (20cNT) for false Christs and false Prophets will arise, and will display great signs and marvels, so that, were it possible, even God’s People would be led astray.
How do you understand this verse or verses? Will people really say to us "Here is the Christ"
Have you witnessed "great signs" and "marvels" from a false Christ in your life?
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https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
"And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many" (Matt. 24:4-5)
I marvel that theologians teach that many people will come saying that "they are the Christ," No, Jesus did not say that many would come claiming that they, themselves, are Christ, but rather that He (Christ) is the Christ. Now then, who but Christians teach that Jesus Christ IS THE CHRIST of God? No one, but Christians only. So those who "deceive many" are Christians!
About every ten or twenty years a person will come along and claim that he, himself, is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. And so, it is not the "many" who do this, but rather only an occasional one every so many decades. And, no one of normal intelligence (certainly not "the many") would ever really believe that these weirdos really are Jesus Christ. So these rare few are not themselves the "many" nor do they deceive the "many."
It's not the Muslims who teach that Jesus is the Christ. It's not the Hindus who teach that Jesus is the Christ. It is not the heathens or the pagans that teach that Jesus is the Christ. And certainly the athiests do not teach the Jesus is the Christ. You know who they are--they are the pastors, ministers, teachers, prophets, priests, shepherds, and theologians of Christendom. They are "many," and Jesus said they would be deceiving "many." There is no other category of people on earth whose number is "many," who claim to represent Christ, and teach that Christ is the Christ, yet are deceiving "many."
If you really think that the leaders of the Christian Church are not these "many false prophets," who are "deceiving many," then you have to account for them with some other large group that does this, or you make Christ and the Scriptures out to be lying.
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Thanks Zve.
Have you witnessed "great signs" and "marvels" from a false Christ in your life?
Not sure I understand what it means by great signs and marvels.
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probably a good idea to pay attention to the words, especially Ray's comment in the brackets:
https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
"And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)
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Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
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There isn't a person in the history of the world that hasn't been deceived by Satan into believing that “the man of lawlessness” (also known as “the beast”) is a powerful god able to thwart the will of his or her Creator.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
2Th 2:3 No one should be deluding you by any method, for, should not the apostasy be coming first and the man of lawlessness be unveiled, the son of destruction,
2Th 2:4 who is opposing and lifting himself up over everyone termed a god or an object of veneration, so that he is seated in the temple of God, demonstrating that he himself is God?
2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that, still being with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you are aware what is detaining, for him to be unveiled in his own era.”
2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness is already operating. Only when the present detainer may be coming to be out of the midst,
2Th 2:8 then will be unveiled the lawless one (whom the Lord Jesus will despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence),
2Th 2:9 whose presence is in accord with the operation of Satan, with all power and signs and false miracles”
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Unless and until Jesus reveals the lawless one in each believer in every generation, and then destroys him by the spirit of His mouth and by the advent of His presence, Satan will continue to deceive them into believing “he is a god sitting in the Temple of God”. What greater sign and wonder is there than to say, “who is like the beast, and who can make war with him?”. (Rev_13:4)
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Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
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Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: "Thank God that it is not possible." Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?
Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The OP is asking about signs and wonders from a false christ, I don't think Rev 13 is about false christ.
Rev 13 is about the beast, and who is the "beast"?
https://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don't want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
However, with all the AI and 3D hologram technologies, it's not hard to create fake great signs such as making fire come down from the sky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmpe1uYTDgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKnHek04Ouw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRtEXQSAxJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12Rqe8zMlY
There's also a conspiracy theory that NASA's secret "Project Blue Beam" will be used for creating an artificial fake second coming Of Jesus Christ. Well, who knows.... a lot of past conspiracy theories turned out to be true anyway...
But NASA is not a false christ or false prophet, they never preach anything about Christ. According to Matt 24:24, it's NOT possible for a false christ or false prophet to perform great signs and wonders.
https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
"And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)
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Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: "Thank God that it is not possible." Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?
Well, I think the point is, where are the signs and wonders? I don’t think that has come yet.
You are correct, the time is close but not yet.
The signs that deceive others will be very strong signs convincing even the most intelligent of the non-believers.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
The OP is asking about signs and wonders from a false christ, I don't think Rev 13 is about false christ.
Rev 13 is about the beast, and who is the "beast"?
https://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don't want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!
However, with all the AI and 3D hologram technologies, it's not hard to create fake great signs such as making fire come down from the sky.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmpe1uYTDgI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKnHek04Ouw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRtEXQSAxJ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q12Rqe8zMlY
There's also a conspiracy theory that NASA's secret "Project Blue Beam" will be used for creating an artificial fake second coming Of Jesus Christ. Well, who knows.... a lot of past conspiracy theories turned out to be true anyway...
But NASA is not a false christ or false prophet, they never preach anything about Christ. According to Matt 24:24, it's NOT possible for a false christ or false prophet to perform great signs and wonders.
https://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html
"And MANY false prophets shall rise, and shall DECEIVE MANY. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible [Thank God that it is not possible...] they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt. 24:3, 11, & 24)
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Friend zvezda,
Subject to correction I think it actually says that the elect cannot be deceived by the great signs and wonders.
Not that the signs and wonders are NOT possible.
So Satan's messengers will be able to call down fire from heaven and other signs such as giving life to the dead.
And all of these wonders that are intended to deceive are according to God's intention to lead people astray who do not believe.
God uses Satan to carry out God's overall plan and to deceive the majority.
Satan could not do his evil if God had not intended it to happen.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
I think Matt 24:24 is saying it's NOT possible for the false prophets to perform great signs and wonders, and this (not having the ability to perform signs and wonders) is exactly the reason why they can't deceive the elect.
The whole chapter of Rev 13 is talking about the wild beast, it's not talking about satan's minions.
Unless you think the wild beast is satan's minion and disagree with Ray about who the beast is.
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Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: “Thank God that it is not possible.” Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?
It only becomes not possible to deceive the Elect after Christ has “despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence” (2Th 2:8). I assure you, “the whole world" was deceived (Rev 12:9) including Ray, Ray even admitted it.
https://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
"THANK GOD, that I (L. Ray Smith) had fallen away, left my first love, looked back, forsook the Lord, and watched my house upon the sand come crashing down! Only then was I able to stand upon the sand of the sea, and see the beast within, the man of sin, the son of perdition, and Satan the devil who DECEIVED ME!"
How will we ever understand and believe Christs parables, if we first do not know who the parables are talking about?
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity [Greek: lawnesness].
The MANY that call Jesus Lord, and the MANY that call Jesus the Christ, are the same MANY that deceive us by their so called “wonderful and mighty works”.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
This isn't exactly rocket science, so you don't have to be too intelligent to understand it, but to be fair, it does take the Spirit to understand.
Christ in you is how "the beast within" is removed and revealed to you.
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
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Ray is the only one I’ve read who interprets Revelation and the beast in this way. I just don’t know. Not sure what the need of a vision is if the beast is just every man. 6 is the number of man- it always has been. 666? Well, seems to be more than just a simple man.
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The whole point of visions, signs, miracles, prophecies, and parables, is so many called wouldn't understand. But to those who are being saved, it is the power of “Christ in you”. Christs life and even His crucifixion is a parable to them.
1Co 1:18 For to those who are perishing the message of the cross is foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is God's power.
1Co 1:19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts.
1Co 1:20 Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? Hasn't God made the world's wisdom foolish?
1Co 1:21 For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks seek wisdom,
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles.
1Co 1:24 Yet to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God's power and God's wisdom,
It's all one.
1Pe 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: Look! I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and valuable cornerstone, and the one who believes in Him will never be put to shame!
1Pe 2:7 So the honor is for you who believe; but for the unbelieving, The stone that the builders rejected--this One has become the cornerstone, and
1Pe 2:8 A stone that causes men to stumble, and a rock that trips them up. They stumble by disobeying the message; they were destined for this.
It really isn't that complicated. The number of the beast is 666, it is the number of humanity. Humanity has all the hall-MARKS of a wild, untamed godless beast.
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Well , could you try and explain Revelations 13 to me ? Every now and then God opens a door for me and I can see something in the text that is not obvious . But Revelations ? I only have questions . Yes I’ve read Rays work but unlike most of what he teaches this doesn’t sit with me .I’m not arguing at all - I simply don’t see it .
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I know you're not arguing octoberose because if I thought you were, I would have never replied. I'm simply too weak to get into arguments, as it is one of my character flaws.
We all have different gifts, even those who do not fully understand can enter into the Kingdom of God.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all do miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in languages? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But desire the greater gifts. And I will show you an even better way.
I know exactly what the entire body of Christ is experiencing because the God of one of us is the same God of all of us.
Ray has written in great length concerning whom the beast of Revelation is and Revelation in general. Everything written in Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. However, I did find this wonderful summary that has helped me understand the plan of God and a bit better about prophecy in Revelation.
https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html (https://bible-truths.com/lake9.html)
Let me give you the history of the world including all future prophecies, in one sentence:
God perfectly planned and recorded His creation of the heavens, angels, the earth, and carnal humanity, who sinned wickedly and were all drowned (save a few); who then reached for their own heaven at the tower of Babel in rebellion to the God Who then scattered them (save a few); who later built Babylon into a great pagan empire which God destroyed (save a few); who have since built many wicked and fornicating Babylons collectively called, Mystery Babylon The Great, whom God warns before utterly destroying again (save a few); and of "the Few' God is creating a New Spiritual Humanity of Son-and-Daughter Saviours like unto Jesus, in New Jerusalem on spiritual Mt. Zion, were ALL will be redeemed (NOT just a few); that God may be "ALL in All"!
Maybe I could shorten it down a smidgen, but there it is. The reality of most of the symbolism of Revelation is contained in that one sentence. “But Mr. Smith, I don't see “666' anywhere in your sentence.” You don't? I do. I see 666 followed by 777 in nearly every phrase of that sentence. “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches!”
This tells me that the number 666 in and of itself isn't terribly important, as long as I get the big picture. The big picture along with the truth that “all is of God”, Jesus only taught in parables, the bible is one giant parable and there is no free will, has taught me a lot. These truths make many of the smaller details that I come across make more sense. These truths are an excellent foundation to begin learning about Jesus.
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Of course it has not come, and never will. As Ray said: “Thank God that it is not possible.” Why would you expect something that's not possible to come?
It only becomes not possible to deceive the Elect after Christ has “despatch with the spirit of His mouth and will discard by the advent of His presence” (2Th 2:8). I assure you, “the whole world" was deceived (Rev 12:9) including Ray, Ray even admitted it.
just wanted to clarify -
I don't deny that the world was deceived.
I was just talking about Matt 24:24 - the signs and wonders performed by false prophets (that's what the OP asks)
The false prophets don't have the ability to do it (as Ray said it's not possible), that's why they can't deceive the elect by performing signs and wonders, that's also why I asked the question "why expect something (signs and wonders performed by false prophets) that's not possible to come".
I didn't say the world can't be deceived by any means.
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All good zvezda. Sorry, if I seemed a little gung ho about it.
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Paul mentions "false wonders". 2Th 2:9 whose (that Wicked) coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders...
Anybody who's seen a day's worth of TBN has seen this.
"Signs and wonders" are not the operative words in this passage. POWER is. If "wonders" can be false/lying then they derive from false/lying power. "Free will" is a false power.
δύναμις
dunamis
Thayer Definition:
1) strength power, ability
1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
1b) power for performing miracles
1c) moral power and excellence of soul
1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
1e) power and resources arising from numbers
1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
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I think you are making an important distinction, Dave. I get the part about “free will” being a false power, but is there another way to explain the distinction between “signs and lying wonders” and the false power of “free will”? Is it safe to say that the part about signs and wonders takes too much precedence, while the false power isn't given enough or even any consideration at all?
I guess my real question is, how do the lying wonders and signs relate to watching a day's worth of TBN? I know TBN is full of “false prophets” who make deceitful prophecies. It sounds simple, but the point escapes me, and I'm trying to tie it all together in my mind.
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I can’t sleep 😩
This power is after the working of Satan is what the scripture says.
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You're absolutely right, Pamela.
After thinking about it for a while, I think I understand a bit better now. Are you, Dave, saying the false prophets are lying to us through or by false “miracles” so we would believe we have free will? So, what exactly is the false “miracle”?
Moses and Aaron, as commanded by God, performed miracles in front of Pharaoh, and his officials and I assume the Israelites were present also. Moses and Aaron did this so that the Israelites would know God was the same God of their fathers (Exo 4:5), and so they would “worship Me in the wilderness” (Exo 7:16). Pharaoh then commanded his officials to perform the same miracles as Moses and Aaron. Because Pharaoh's officials were able to do the same miracles as Aaron and Moses, Pharaoh's heart was hardened, so he would not let the Israelites go.
Of course, like everything else, “all is of God” and God intended to harden Pharaoh's heart, so the whole world would know there is only One God.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth.
1Co 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth--as there are many “gods” and many “lords”--
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him.
1Co 8:7 However, not everyone has this knowledge. In fact, some have been so used to idolatry up until now, that when they eat food offered to an idol, their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
For the first time in my life, I know what 1Co 8:7 means! I apologize for yelling, but I'm excited :D . There is so much more spiritual wisdom packed into the story of Moses and Pharaoh, but I need to stop.
I still don't know what the false “miracle” is, but I feel like I've gained a lot of understanding from trying to find out. Not to mention a deeper appreciate for the power and wisdom of God and all of you here.
It's just one more nail in the coffin of “free will” for me.
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I was thinking about the sorcerers of Pharaohs day too, and how they did their signs, their tricks and then Moses came and wiped theirs out. I was also thinking we live in an age where UFO’s ( they are calling them something else now ) are being talked about with video and our government is acknowledging them. Ray said there was no other life anywhere as far as on distant planets. So, are not demonic forces able to come up with ‘signs and wonders ?’ I feel like we’re being set up to see beings from another realm come down and deceive people with their ‘power’. I know this isn’t where this discussion is headed, but I don’t think the answer lies in TBN or the local churches. And those churches with power are the ones who love well and believe it or not, there are churches out there who love well. They may be off track in many things, but how does it profit anyone of us to believe in reconciliation and hate their brother? I know people who just humbly serve, who feed the homeless and clothe those who don’t have anything . I know those who visit people in jail because Jesus told us to. We may be ‘right’ on a lot of things, but loving your neighbor is at least as important. When those signs comes, don’t be surprised. At least that’s what I think.
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I wonder how many would actually be deceived by UFO's in the sky doing signs and wonders, though. Unless.......
I watched a movie last night with my wife called 'The Fifth Wave'. It was about an alien invasion and how they killed nearly every one in the world through these “waves” of attack. The fifth and final wave was intended to finish the job of killing whatever remnant of humanity remained alive. The fifth wave involved having the aliens attempt to blend in with the humans by taking over the bodies of Army commanders and soldiers to look like humans in authority.
Then the false Army recruited actual human teens and smaller children to train them to fight. They put implants in the back of the neck of these children to “keep track” of them, according to the false Army. These children had no idea the Army were actually the aliens. The false Army then informed the children that the “aliens” were using human bodies to hide in plain sight. Talk about hypocrites! ;D The aliens told the children that they could have revenge on the aliens for killing their loved ones if they went through the training.
After the children were trained to fight, the false Army made up of aliens sent the children out into the streets (they wouldn't even lift one of their fingers to help the children) to hunt for what they thought were aliens disguised as humans. The false Army gave the children helmets with special camera's attached to them so that the “aliens” lit up green when they saw them through the camera. The children eventually figured out that the implants in their necks were causing the real humans that they were hunting to light up green. The movie ended with the children blowing up the base of the false Army made up of the real aliens. Suffice it to say, I think there will be a sequel, but I hope not because I'll be forced to watch it.
Anyhow, I think you get the idea of how false prophets or false “Shepard's” could deceive and lead astray the sheep by dressing up as one of them. It's simple, effective, and quite ingenious if you ask me, especially when you know, “all is of God”.
Mat 7:15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
So, you're right, we can't hate or blame the deceived sheep or be too hard on them for being deceived. I mean, we were once in their shoes. The false Shepard's, those that led them and us astray, will have a lot more answering to do in the day of the Lord. Even when “all is of God”.
I never got the feeling anyone here hates the many called. If anything, you'll hear about folks hating themselves because of sin. If we believe God knows what is in the heart of each person, we should trust He knows how to be fair in His judgments. God did, after all, subject all of humanity to failure, so He could take the glory for its success (Rom 8:20,21).
Frequently when we talk about “the many called” and “false prophets”, we are using them as EXAMPLES to see within ourselves the things that must be repented of. In fact, this is precisely what the Apostle Paul calls them.
1Co 10:11 Now these things happened to them (referring to disobedient children) as EXAMPLES, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1Co 10:12 Therefore, whoever thinks he stands must be careful not to fall!
If you've ever thought the body of Christ frequented this forum, then don't you think God is able to teach them how to obey Him? I'm not trying to be snarky or start an argument, just asking a question that you may not have thought of.
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When watching TBN, do you guys see "great signs" and "wonders?"
Rev 13 has two beasts,one is mankind as Ray taught,but didn't explain the other beast.
Again,when watching TBN do you see them(false prophets) performing "spectacular signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth?"
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To answer your question Porter , from Myth of free Will .
Quote from Ray” the natural mind of man( humanity) with his non existent
free Will is NOT at liberty or free to love God and obey His Spiritual law. Romans
8:7 along with hundreds of other supporting scriptures proves this beyond a
shadow of a doubt.
2Thes.2:11.and for this cause, God shall send them STRONG DELUSION that
they should believe a ( the ) lie.
What cause? 2 Thes.2:10… because they receive not the love of the truth.
Back to Romans 8:7..’the carnal mind ( the natural mind) is enmity ( hatred)
against God, neither indeed can be.
God knew exactly how to insight hatred out of Joseph’s brothers , and God knows
exactly how to insight hatred out of US toward HIM.
God has the entire human race born under the law of sin and death.
Jesus said, “ of mine ownself I CAN DO
NOTHING.”
The source of all power, physical and spiritual is God. Everything and everyone is
under His control. Jesus also told us where He got His power, the Father gave it to ME.
God is doing a strange work on the earth. What are y’all ( American language 😁)
seeing around you?
The working of Satan???
Working… Gi1753, energia, from G1756, efficiency,( energy) operation,
strong, ( effectual) working, 1722 and 2041, active, operative.
The ESV says the activity of Satan.
Dan.4:16…. Let his mind be changed from a man’s , and let a beasts mind be given
to him and let seven periods of time pass over him.
Dan. 4:23… verse 25…. till( until) you know that the MOST HIGH RULES THE
KINGDOM OF MEN ( humanity) and give it to whom He will.
Anyway, this is my understanding, I hope it is not teaching , I’m using what I learned
from the Myth of Free Will .
And just what caused Israel to cry onto God? Their own free Will? No.
Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried…. There is always a cause,
but it is never man’s free will. See Exo.2:23-25.
Aren’t we crying and groaning and longing and yearning for our Saviour to come
and save humanity. It brings tears to my eyes every time , not because I think
He will not come, and believe that He will torture His own children and that they
will never see their loved ones again, as is taught in the churches, no .
I know and I believe that Bible truths is a testimony to the world that Jesus
Christ is the Savior of the whole world 1Tim.4:10&11( not just a few) .
For when Thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn
righteousness. Isa.26:9
Gods judgements are severe, no good to deny it, but they will bring all the
Blessings promised . I can now imagine a world where our children are safe
from evil. Praise God , Come Lord Jesus, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Open to all correction. God Bless You All 💕
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I think you are making an important distinction, Dave. I get the part about “free will” being a false power, but is there another way to explain the distinction between “signs and lying wonders” and the false power of “free will”? Is it safe to say that the part about signs and wonders takes too much precedence, while the false power isn't given enough or even any consideration at all?
I guess my real question is, how do the lying wonders and signs relate to watching a day's worth of TBN? I know TBN is full of “false prophets” who make deceitful prophecies. It sounds simple, but the point escapes me, and I'm trying to tie it all together in my mind.
Yes..."signs and wonders" are wrapped up in power--both FALSE and TRUE. It should go without stating, that POWER is the source of "signs and wonders". Paul has plenty to say about the "signs and wonders" that followed Christ and, later, the Apostles. At the same time "false wonders" are all about power, too--especially about amassing it.
Watching a day's worth of TBN (I'm assuming...I haven't had the horror in decades) exposes one to False "faith healers", false "prosperity preachers" and others who lord it over their audiences with false "signs and wonders". "Plant the seed and get rich, and here are some testimonies to back that up--as if my second 60 million dollar private jet isn't evidence enough." ;) Just because they may not match an imagination about what constitutes a "sign and wonder" doesn't mean they are NOT. OF COURSE THEY ARE! How are "we" supposed to be able to recognize false "signs and wonders" in some imaginary future if "we" don't recognize what's occurring in our "present"?
Of course, not all people in the pews are "deceived" by Benny Hinn and that ilk, and see them for charlatans. But they readily eat up the message that they possess a power that can thwart the Love, will and purpose of God, and that those who do will burn forever and ever.
Sign
G4592
σημεῖον
sēmeion
Thayer Definition:
1) a sign, mark, token
1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known
There are other definitions under Thayers, but they tend to the theological. This one (as most first listed definitions do) is the soundest and most natural meaning of the word.
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Rose, I'm not interested in simply and soley having doctrinal arguments with "the church". When I was in it, I hated the notion of a "hell", though all I could do was make my peace with it and live with the consequences. I'm certain that I was not (and am not now) alone in that. Even my last pastor came up with a sort of everlasting "hell-light" version that didn't include literal fire and torture that apparently he could make his peace and live with. This is not a doctrinal disagreement like how often to have the Lord's Supper. This is the very depths of Satan and affects every member--even those other-wise kind and upstanding folks. They are as damaged and imprisoned by that notion as those that delight in the thought of eternal torture. Nothing they can do (just as nothing I could do) comes without the stain of that belief, including loving others and feeding the poor. I fed the poor, visited prisons, and did what I knew how to do to love others--I know from where I speak.
I ache for them to be free of that belief. But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly. "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship. Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan.
Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified. They themselves will be saved, though as by fire. Same as "us". All in the order that Glorifies God.
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Dave,
Good discussion.
I especially appreciate your final comments.
1 Cor 3:11-15 gives each of us the confidence to continue in faith, doubting nothing.
Thanks, Bob
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I ache for them to be free of that belief. But I know for good church people what has to happen and I don't wish it on them lightly. "We'll" be "here" when they can benefit from fellowship. Until then, they are fulfilling their role in His plan.
Regardless, if their works are good, their works will survive judgement and be purified. They themselves will be saved, though as by fire. Same as "us". All in the order that Glorifies God.
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You’re right of course. God frequently surprises with His mercy, even to us. All we can do is leave it in His hands.
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I agree Bob the discussions on here have been so helpful spiritual y. Thanks to everyone contributing .I love reading them all .very up lifting to the soul 😍
God Bless
Wendy