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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 12:09:53 AM

Title: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 12:09:53 AM: I don't know if this will be offensive, but it's something I don't understand, and I need to. If my question is offensive then delete it, but I need to ask this.

Jesus suffered on the tree. He was maimed, tortured, suffocated, had spikes pounded into his flesh. He knew great pain and He felt fear. Didn't the Apostle Paul know greater suffering than Christ?

Is a woman being held captive by some sadistic man, tortured, and raped for years, less than what Jesus experienced? Jesus knew His Father intimately and knew that He himself was connected to God. He knew Truth. He was afraid - but that torture was over in a day.

What about children who suffer at the hand of an abusive parent for 15 years, or the child who is sexually assaulted by someone who should have protected them, resulting in a lifetime of pain and suffering?

God allows Satan to bring suffering into our lives. I understand. But how can we suffer more than the One who created us?

The sin in this world from the beginning is beyond my ability to reconcile. The evil we force on each other, the hatred, the destruction we bring to one another - I can't understand. I can't even begin to comprehend.

I've read everything Ray shared here more times than I can remember - since 2009, but I can't grasp the intensity of evil we experience - what all experience - I can't just say "it's God's will" and move on.

Why would God allow someone to commit suicide?

We torture our fellow humans, we murder and rape children, we drop satan-inspired bombs on millions of people. We are Sodom and Gomorrah a thousand times over. War, famine, genocide, fear, hatred, children who are raised to hate and destroy, mass murder, pointless, senseless killing. Our depravity is and always has been profound - perfected. We spend billion$ coming up with new ways to kill each other.

Where is our Savior? How much suffering is enough? God's will?

Somebody, please help me understand.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Extol on October 09, 2015, 12:48:53 AM: Dear Jeff,

I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross...and I think the Father has too. He knows what longsuffering is...it is one of the fruits of God's spirit.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 09, 2015, 12:56:27 AM: Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 12:09:53 AM
I don't know if this will be offensive, but it's something I don't understand, and I need to. If my question is offensive then delete it, but I need to ask this.

Jesus suffered on the tree. He was maimed, tortured, suffocated, had spikes pounded into his flesh. He knew great pain and He felt fear. Didn't the Apostle Paul know greater suffering than Christ?

Is a woman being held captive by some sadistic man, tortured, and raped for years, less than what Jesus experienced? Jesus knew His Father intimately and knew that He himself was connected to God. He knew Truth. He was afraid - but that torture was over in a day.

What about children who suffer at the hand of an abusive parent for 15 years, or the child who is sexually assaulted by someone who should have protected them, resulting in a lifetime of pain and suffering?

God allows Satan to bring suffering into our lives. I understand. But how can we suffer more than the One who created us?

The sin in this world from the beginning is beyond my ability to reconcile. The evil we force on each other, the hatred, the destruction we bring to one another - I can't understand. I can't even begin to comprehend.

I've read everything Ray shared here more times than I can remember - since 2009, but I can't grasp the intensity of evil we experience - what all experience - I can't just say "it's God's will" and move on.

Why would God allow someone to commit suicide?

We torture our fellow humans, we murder and rape children, we drop satan-inspired bombs on millions of people. We are Sodom and Gomorrah a thousand times over. War, famine, genocide, fear, hatred, children who are raised to hate and destroy, mass murder, pointless, senseless killing. Our depravity is and always has been profound - perfected. We spend billion$ coming up with new ways to kill each other.

Where is our Savior? How much suffering is enough? God's will?

Somebody, please help me understand.

There is only one thing God 'allows' and that's the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

No human will ever suffer more than God did. The cross is but an infinitesimal fraction of the suffering God endured to reconcile all things to Himself, notwithstanding the tremendous suffering He endured just to bring this creation into existence. Consider for example what He terms the 'birthing' of wisdom or where His knowledge of evil came from.

Evil is a necessary part of the creation in order to bring to pass the things that must occur for humanity to become like God.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

There are simply to many things you are forgetting in your emotional state. You say you've read and re-read ray's writings but it seems to me you have missed quiet a bit. Who created man subject to vanity, with a weak heart?

Does God need to force evil men to do the things they do? Why was the waster created to destroy? Is death the end of all things? Is the evil we suffer for a finite period of time by the wisdom of God who has subjected the whole creation in its ultimate destiny of becoming like Him unacceptable? Do the wicked and evil go unpunished? Shall a man rape forever and not incur upon himself the WRATH of God? Is God deaf, is He blind, does He sleep? Is He far off to the oppressed and the broken hearted? Do we not live and move and have our being in Him?

Let me share with you some wisdom a man long ago learned after he questioned God and lamented his situation (and for good reason, he had suffered the loss of all things, can you say the same?) even to the point of wishing he had never been born!

Job 38:1-40
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?\
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

There are many evils in this life that are hard to look beyond and many times may seem excessive for us. Yet God says He frames evil, which means no matter how out of control it may seem, it never goes beyond the limits which God has set for it. He has promised by His word, and sealed with the blood of His own, the future of all mankind. Though these momentary afflictions can seem a sore travail, unpleasent, they cannot be compared to the glory that is going to be revealed in us and the entire human race. In Jesus, not only do we see the whole creation reconciled, we see its future. God became like man so that man could become like God. Is God not just in all this? Even I speak these things knowing only the tiniest of fraction of the things God has planned for His family. When we become as God then have we only just began to live. Which means all of this is hardly even the starting line. Gird up your loins man! God is all around you. Focus on the things that are good and lovely and let God handle the rest.

Philippians 4:5-9
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

He is the God of peace! It's going to be okay, I promise! ;)

God bless,
Alex
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: cheekie3 on October 09, 2015, 01:33:57 AM: Jeff -

Someone whose three month old son tragically died said that no one loved her son more than her.

I believe Our Father and Our Saviour loved her son more than she did; as His Love is greater than ours.

I also believe that all suffering each of us all have is shared by Him.

Each of us have our own share of pain and suffering - but He has all of our combined aggregated pain and suffering.

He shares His Great Love with us - and He shares our great pain and suffering with us.

He is in total control of all things - but not remote of the pain and suffering we all experience - as He is part of all of us and we are all part of Him.

It is s like the pain a mother or father has when their child is suffering - except He has suffered the child's pain with the child.

He forces us all to suffer - and He suffers with each and every human being.

The Father also suffered with Jesus the pain Jesus suffered on the Cross and all that led to the Cross.

I believe that the suffering of Jesus leading to the cross, and on the cross was the greatest imposed on a human being.

I too hate all the evil in the world - and Our Heavenly Father states that Jesus loves Righteousness and hates wickedness.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

In Holy Spirit.

George.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 01:45:03 AM: Job suffered, but that's the point . He suffered greatly and through no fault of his own. When an innocent child suffers at the hand of someone who should have protected him or her, how is that less than what God suffered? How, in His name is it not more? We are feeble and I'll-equipped to cope.

I can believe that God suffers when a child is sexually abused and murdered, but where do I go from there? I'm struggling to understand how that can benefit anyone.

We are evil, as a race, beyond comprehension. We seem no better than Sodom - worse even. Where is our Savior?

Have faith? The evil we bring, the hatred in our hearts, the depravity, is more than we should be able to bear.

If a child is raped and murdered God is not allowing this? I beg to differ. God is Soverign. If you saw a child being raped, you in your sinful, carnal nature, you would do nothing? Is it not God who prompts us to act?!

I don't know the mind of God, but I can not. In my sinful, natural state, I'm to abhor things like this, I know in my spirit that these things are evil.

God put an end to this evil once, and only God can put an end to what we've wrought on this earth now. I'll ask again, where is our Savior?

I understand the benefit of trials and tribulations and I thank God for them and ask for strength to endure. What does a 5 year old girl have to fall back on as her step father is beating her or worse?

God IS SOVERIEGN! He is responsible, WE are accountable.

We sit by in our chairs and watch while 100,000 die in Syria, while madmen rape women in order to convert them to Islam. Rather than live this evil, and be content, and not be anxious for anything, these women take their own lives.

Why? Justify this. Help me understand. Platitudes and assurances aren't enough. Where do the Scriptures allow this and WHY?

I'm not blaming God, but to assume that Ray's papers tell us everything is foolish. I can understand if you want to end this thread because it reaches out beyond what he was shown, but this site is a tribute to God, foremost. Period. This is about God. If you think the work ended with Ray then, so be it.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 02:01:46 AM: Quote from: cheekie3 on October 09, 2015, 01:33:57 AM
Jeff -

Someone whose three month old son tragically died said that no one loved her son more than her.

I believe Our Father and Our Saviour loved her son more than she did; as His Love is greater than ours.

I also believe that all suffering each of us all have is shared by Him.

Each of us have our own share of pain and suffering - but He has all of our combined aggregated pain and suffering.

He shares His Great Love with us - and He shares our great pain and suffering with us.

He is in total control of all things - but not remote of the pain and suffering we all experience - as He is part of all of us and we are all part of Him.

It is s like the pain a mother or father has when their child is suffering - except He has suffered the child's pain with the child.

He forces us all to suffer - and He suffers with each and every human being.

The Father also suffered with Jesus the pain Jesus suffered on the Cross and all that led to the Cross.

I believe that the suffering of Jesus leading to the cross, and on the cross was the greatest imposed on a human being.

I too hate all the evil in the world - and Our Heavenly Father states that Jesus loves Righteousness and hates wickedness.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

George,

Thank you, but WHY?

God taught us to pray for understanding, knowledge and wisdom.

I pray for this and don't know. Is my question heretical? Is it wrong to question? Is it wrong to seek answers? The horror we inflict on each other is beyond my ability to just accept. Accepting would mean complacency. Are we called to that?

How much suffering is enough?

I don't know the mind of God, but I am, we are, His Creation. He gave us minds that question, and desire to understand. Our hearts are fashioned by Him. Is it evil to desire a Spiritual understanding of evil? Especially when it's truly horrific?

if I had more faith I would pray for the destruction of this exceedingly sinful world. I continuously ask Him to remove me from it, because it's more than I can bear.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: cheekie3 on October 09, 2015, 06:58:41 AM: Jeff -

I believe many of us on this Forum share your concerns, but I do not believe anyone here has the answers you are seeking.

Here are my further thoughts on this:

God knows all things.

Mankind does its own thing, with each one of us having our own unique belief system based on what we were taught when we were young.
When we mature, we correct some of these false beliefs but not the majority.

All of us desire to learn The Truth; and know why we are here - and what this is all about.

Most cling to their false beliefs all their lives - even those who know there is a Creator.

I always thought I was different - and I believe we all have this thought - as His endgame is to make us all in His Image but yet unique like precious stones.

His Elect Called Out Ones are imparted with Holy Spirit and He begins His work in them - and they start to learn and understand His Absolute Truths, which bring knowledge and True Wisdom.

I believe all of us here on this Forum hate the wickedness in this world we live in - and some desire the authority and power to change it.

As we are changed by Him, we are Perfect in the Part He has molded us in His Image.

To change the wickedness completely, we need the Mind of God - or rather He already has His Master Plan.

I despair daily on how those I interact with perceive reality.

I look to how much I have changed, and it is a miracle that I no longer hate people for the hurt they have given me - instead I really care for them and live as a Living Letter to show them The Truth in simple ways - yet I know they do not want to know, and hate me for it.

We all mature, and most of us here on this Forum have learnt a lot of His Truths.

We are living in this current evil age, although it is the age of Grace for His Elect - and there is nothing we can do about it - even if our knowledge increased a thousandfold.

The Elect are being Trained by Him to be Judges and Rulers in the next age with Jesus Christ. We are instructed that this cannot be done without both Good and Evil. The tree is a single tree of the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of Evil - as no human being can know Good without knowing Evil, as only by contrast do we learn to choose to do Good.

I long for the time when all will know His Righteousness and no longer cling to their own false beliefs and opinions.

I do not believe any one of us here on this Forum know, or even Ray himself knew, the answer to your valid question.

He forces us to live in this age, in this evil world, with the people who are our families, friends and colleagues - with all these frustrations and deep suffering - but we have the hope of His endgame within us.

Regards in Holy Spirit.

George.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: se7en on October 09, 2015, 07:17:13 AM: Jeff,

I do not pretend to understand why God creates people the way He does. I could not do what God does. I am not capable of seeing the need for evil to the extent that God sees the need for evil and suffering. All I can say is that I do see that God does not pass the buck onto either the Devil or to man:

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind [or crippled, deformed and raped]? have not I the LORD?

So if God were not intending to save all of His creation, then He really would be the monster which the eternal torment crowd makes Him out to be. But the Truth, of course, is that God is not a monster who would either leave a person in eternal fire or in a crippled, raped, or maimed condition. He will instead use all of this evil which he has created to show us how useless this dying flesh is to begin with. All of this evil that we see physically is a type and shadow of men spiritually without the knowledge of God and Christ:

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life

Rest assured, Jeff, that mankind will come, one day to "know God and Jesus Christ whom God has sent." I know you are familiar with these verses but I am repeating them for your comfort:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

All of this evil and suffering is there to humble us and it is very temporary. The tree of the knowledge of good AND evil... We do not know how GOOD something can be without knowing how EVIL something can be. It is needed for the salvation of all in due time.

I hope this has been comforting to you.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 09, 2015, 11:38:34 AM: On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it ?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory.

Romans 9:20-23
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: dave on October 09, 2015, 11:45:58 AM: I must agree with cheekie3 , "I believe many of us on this Forum share your concerns, but I do not believe anyone here has the answers you are seeking."
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Kat on October 09, 2015, 12:43:01 PM: Hi Jeff, you have asked what we all have surely wondered as we see a world that is so filled with war, crime, disasters, and depravity of every kind and why does it have to be so?

Well the way that I have come to see this, is that God came up with a plan that He envisioned from start to finish as perfect, with His wisdom that is so far beyond what we can think or imagine. This incredible God wanted to create beings capable of understanding the joy and pleasures that He knew, so His plan was formed to accomplish that end.

Now we know that everything in this world is just as He determined it to be. God could have designed the human body any way He chose, but what we have is perfectly designed for what He wanted... indeed it is an absolute marvel of design. He created us to have sensations through our senses, so we can experience the physical world around us in a personal way. This was not done by fluke, but by brilliant design, knowing exactly what He desired for His creation to learn from their experience of life. He created us to live this life in a personal way with feeling and emotions and to understand what it is the care for another person, to love and and feel joy... we also were created to feel pain, sadness and hate. We have a mind that is intelligent, that can reason, plan, that can seek revenge, or willingly die to protect a loved one.

We think that there is so much wickedness in the world and there is a lot, but this is to the degree that God knew was needed and necessary. But as Alex was saying God has framed in what there is, so that there is a limit, I mean the human body can just take so much abuse and then it dies, it's life is terminated... He could have created the body to endure much more than it does, but He didn't. Look at what the church has come up with, hell, a place of unceasing torment and they attribute that to our God... they could not be further from the truth. But why do we have as much suffering as we do?

One thing I see in this creation process is that He is creating individuals of us all, and this requires a broad range of experiences. This life provides us with experiences in good and evil, with the emphasis on the evil I think... but why? Well I think we all need to experience evil in order to fully understand it... still I think you would wonder why so much. All I can figure is that God knows to what degree we need this experience in evil to make an impression that we will never forget, we forget things rather quickly and things is the past fade in our memory.

I believe we need a experience of evil as a backdrop in our understanding, to learn how deplorable it is. We can't forget that there is good as well, it's not all bad. But whatever we experience, both good and evil form a character in us. All these characteristics vary from person to person from the individual experiences they have, creating an unique person every time. This character/personality is needed as a base, as a persons own inter framework of thinking, that God has something to work with.

I have every confidence that God's plan will bring about justification to every single human being in the ages to come. His plan is perfect and this is just the first phase of it, we cannot understand how He intends to compensate for what is suffered in this life. It has occurred to me that those that suffer the most in this age could receive so great reparation as to remove all their distress... surely God can repair what is broken by His design.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.

Thinking of the people that have been the most wicked... this has been an age of atrocities of every kind, people have actually made an art of war and how to kill people. In history battles were hand to hand combat, some (maybe many) have been soldiers by trade, their whole life. When these are finally brought to repentance and really understand the depths of their sins, how can they deal with what all the suffering they know they have caused? Look at this parable.

Luke 7:41 "There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.
v. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?"
v. 43 Simon answered and said, "I suppose the one whom he forgave more." And He said to him, "You have rightly judged."

Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

So maybe those that have caused so much suffering, when God has forgiven them and purged them and set them right, they will have so much forgiven and they will feel so much joy in their love of God, maybe to the greatest degree of all.

It's hard to know what will take place in the next age, maybe we just can't, but I feel certain that God plan is perfect start to finish for bringing about this human race to a very happy and glorious outcome.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 03:12:40 PM: Sorry. It was more of a lament than anything. I know we don't have the answers. I believe the same that all of you do and I shouldn't be putting it on God. Only God is good. Maybe it was more a written prayer. I don't know why it struck me the way it did. I suppose the thought of some people suffering horrifically their entire lives is a difficult thing to accept. The things we do to each other are terrifying. I would imagine that some things may have even improved, it's just so prolific with respect to the size of the population. I also see good in the world and I know where that comes from just as I know where the evil comes from.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: John from Kentucky on October 09, 2015, 03:24:57 PM: Both good and evil come from God. God created evil.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isa 45:7
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: dave on October 09, 2015, 03:35:03 PM: I have been reading Installment XV, Part C and towards the end there is a lot that may help. Just my two cents.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 09, 2015, 04:57:06 PM: Quote
Job suffered, but that's the point . He suffered greatly and through no fault of his own. When an innocent child suffers at the hand of someone who should have protected him or her, how is that less than what God suffered? How, in His name is it not more? We are feeble and I'll-equipped to cope.

I can believe that God suffers when a child is sexually abused and murdered, but where do I go from there? I'm struggling to understand how that can benefit anyone.

We are evil, as a race, beyond comprehension. We seem no better than Sodom - worse even. Where is our Savior?

Have faith? The evil we bring, the hatred in our hearts, the depravity, is more than we should be able to bear.

If a child is raped and murdered God is not allowing this? I beg to differ. God is Soverign. If you saw a child being raped, you in your sinful, carnal nature, you would do nothing? Is it not God who prompts us to act?!

I don't know the mind of God, but I can not. In my sinful, natural state, I'm to abhor things like this, I know in my spirit that these things are evil.

God put an end to this evil once, and only God can put an end to what we've wrought on this earth now. I'll ask again, where is our Savior?

I understand the benefit of trials and tribulations and I thank God for them and ask for strength to endure. What does a 5 year old girl have to fall back on as her step father is beating her or worse?

God IS SOVERIEGN! He is responsible, WE are accountable.

We sit by in our chairs and watch while 100,000 die in Syria, while madmen rape women in order to convert them to Islam. Rather than live this evil, and be content, and not be anxious for anything, these women take their own lives.

Why? Justify this. Help me understand. Platitudes and assurances aren't enough. Where do the Scriptures allow this and WHY?

I'm not blaming God, but to assume that Ray's papers tell us everything is foolish. I can understand if you want to end this thread because it reaches out beyond what he was shown, but this site is a tribute to God, foremost. Period. This is about God. If you think the work ended with Ray then, so be it.

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Romans 9:19-22
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Job 35:1-2 Elihu spake moreover, and said, Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 35:3-16
3 For thou saidst, What advantage will it be unto thee? and, What profit shall I have, if I be cleansed from my sin?
4 I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee.
5 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds which are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or if thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou art; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man.
9 By reason of the multitude of oppressions they make the oppressed to cry: they cry out by reason of the arm of the mighty.
10 But none saith, Where is God my maker, who giveth songs in the night;
11 Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth, and maketh us wiser than the fowls of heaven?
12 There they cry, but none giveth answer, because of the pride of evil men.
13 Surely God will not hear vanity, neither will the Almighty regard it.
14 Although thou sayest thou shalt not see him, yet judgment is before him; therefore trust thou in him.
15 But now, because it is not so, he hath visited in his anger; yet he knoweth it not in great extremity:
16 Therefore doth Job open his mouth in vain; he multiplieth words without knowledge.

Job 36:1-33

1 Elihu also proceeded, and said,
2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.
3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.
4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.
5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: he is mighty in strength and wisdom.
6 He preserveth not the life of the wicked: but giveth right to the poor.
7 He withdraweth not his eyes from the righteous: but with kings are they on the throne; yea, he doth establish them for ever, and they are exalted.
8 And if they be bound in fetters, and be holden in cords of affliction;
9 Then he sheweth them their work, and their transgressions that they have exceeded.
10 He openeth also their ear to discipline, and commandeth that they return from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
12 But if they obey not, they shall perish by the sword, and they shall die without knowledge.
13 But the hypocrites in heart heap up wrath: they cry not when he bindeth them.
14 They die in youth, and their life is among the unclean.
15 He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression.
16 Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.
17 But thou hast fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee.
18 Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.
19 Will he esteem thy riches? no, not gold, nor all the forces of strength.
20 Desire not the night, when people are cut off in their place.
21 Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction.
22 Behold, God exalteth by his power: who teacheth like him?
23 Who hath enjoined him his way? or who can say, Thou hast wrought iniquity?
24 Remember that thou magnify his work, which men behold.
25 Every man may see it; man may behold it afar off.
26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not, neither can the number of his years be searched out.
27 For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapour thereof:
28 Which the clouds do drop and distil upon man abundantly.
29 Also can any understand the spreadings of the clouds, or the noise of his tabernacle?
30 Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea.
31 For by them judgeth he the people; he giveth meat in abundance.
32 With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it not to shine by the cloud that cometh betwixt.
33 The noise thereof sheweth concerning it, the cattle also concerning the vapour.

Job 37: 1-24

1 At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place.
2 Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth.
3 He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.
4 After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard.
5 God thundereth marvellously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.
6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain, and to the great rain of his strength.
7 He sealeth up the hand of every man; that all men may know his work.
8 Then the beasts go into dens, and remain in their places.
9 Out of the south cometh the whirlwind: and cold out of the north.
10 By the breath of God frost is given: and the breadth of the waters is straitened.
11 Also by watering he wearieth the thick cloud: he scattereth his bright cloud:
12 And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
13 He causeth it to come, whether for correction, or for his land, or for mercy.
14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.
15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?
16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?
18 Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
19 Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness.
20 Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up.
21 And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them.
22 Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty.
23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
24 Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart

Job 38:1-3
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

No one said that ray provided all the answers. Many of us have moved beyond what ray has written. Reconciliation of all is simply the milk of the word but as I said, Ray has written a great deal on this particular subject and by your posts it seems to me you missed quiet a bit. Number me not among those who feel that your questions cannot be answered because I do believe God has provided us a great deal of answers through His Word. Your questions are not wrong but it is clear, that while you may verbally object to blaming God, you have attributed to Him some injustice where there isn't any. That is wrong.

God be with you,
Alex
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: lareli on October 09, 2015, 05:50:16 PM: I agree with Alex and the rest..

Many have had the same inquiries and understand where your emotions are coming from. You're working some stuff out in your heart, wrestling with God and that's good Jeff! It's how we grow.. I think if you pray and re-read some of these replies you will eventually reach a place of more understanding than you do at this moment.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Dennis Vogel on October 09, 2015, 07:47:55 PM: Quote
I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross

A side note:

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

As a man Jesus did not sin. He did not have to learn obedience as a man. His suffering on earth was not caused by His lack of obedience. He was our perfect example.

Ray touched on this in the 2007 Nashville conference.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 08:56:13 PM: Quote from: Dennis Vogel on October 09, 2015, 07:47:55 PM
Quote
I think Jesus suffered a lot more than just one day at the Cross

A side note:

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

As a man Jesus did not sin. He did not have to learn obedience as a man. His suffering on earth was not caused by His lack of obedience. He was our perfect example.

Ray touched on this in the 2007 Nashville conference.

This is true. It also occurred to me that Jesus' suffering wasn't the main point. It had great significance - God knows what we go through - but the reason He died was to save us from that very thing, eventually. He didn't need to suffer for 60 years in order to accomplish the Father's will. His sacrifice is all that mattered.

I hate this world with passion. Not the people, just the way things are.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: rick on October 09, 2015, 08:56:26 PM: Hi Jeff,

These are the things we must experience to some degree.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

Ecc 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

God bless. :)
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Colin on October 10, 2015, 12:23:47 AM: Hello everybody

I had been reading through Ray’s LOF part 12 and many thoughts came to mind; one, particularly, was the supremacy of God the Father.
So many times I have “revisited” articles which I had read with delight years earlier and now, today, I still find they reveal even more and give rise to ideas, which had “escaped my full attention” those first few times.
As we are a “work in progress”, so, too, is our progressive understanding, as we “work through our path of life”.

Under the (third) subheading ONLY GOD IS THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE SEA, Ray discusses the incident where the disciples were being tossed around in their small boat in a severe storm…..an extract:-

When we come to understanding spiritual things, we will clearly see that the ark represents Christ. We also have examples of Jesus saving His disciples from the raging waves of the Sea [lake] of Galilee.
"And when He was entered into a ship, His disciples followed Him. And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was COVERED WITH THE WAVES [‘and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was already filling, Mk 4:37]: but He was asleep. …………Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea: and there was a great calm. But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him!" (Matt. 8:23-27).
Does anyone have the slightest doubt that Jesus possesses the power to calm the sea? Is any man or group of men more powerful than the sea? Then why, oh why, do we allow theologians, clergymen, pastors, preachers, teachers and authors to tell us that Jesus Christ is POWERLESS TO CALM THE SEA OF HUMANITY? That man possesses a raging power of "free will" that even God Himself cannot and will not penetrate or calm? No, my friends, "…the winds and the sea OBEY HIM!"

While acknowledging, as Ray went on to make clear, that there is a spiritual lesson to be learned from this account, nevertheless, what the disciples experienced was real.
I have been on a much larger ship than the smaller (fishing) boat the disciples were on and during an ocean voyage back to Tasmania, we were met with gale force winds, where we could not stand or walk - with the ship being buffeted by monstrous waves. It was an unnerving experience.

Could we imagine, as happened to the disciples, any man on board rebuking the waves and the winds….followed by a great calm?

We’d be asking the same question in utter amazement ….”what sort of man can do THAT?” Taking it to a spiritual level, we still tend to enquire inwardly, “where is there anybody able to get us out of this mess that our world is in?
Why do some people have it so “rough”? When is it time for it to cease? Where is our Saviour?

I do it myself to some degree, despite knowing full well that in the “long run” all WILL be fixed. Jeff has raised the same kind of thoughts that many of us harbour, to some degree.

I have "overlooked" the fact that God controls actual weather conditions. Jesus certainly did on the lake/sea of Galilee.

Sure, it’s easy to say “oh, with life’s storms, it’s a matter of faith”….yes that is true, and a next step for us is to ask that it to be strengthened.

Not only the faith that is given to us, but also to seek a clearer understanding of WHY our lives have been foreordained the way they are. Much of what Ray presented contains information, inspired from God’s word, which we can “unearth” to assist us.

Jesus told His disciples it was a lack of faith that caused them to have a level of fear.
Matt 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Where did Jesus obtain this “mastery of the wind and waves”? He told His disciples that of (by) Himself, He could do nothing.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Later, He told His disciples that without Him, THEY TOO could do nothing. That includes all of us. So, as we face the “spiritual winds and waves” of life, none of us can rebuke or avoid (or quieten) them.

Ray continues in the LOF part 12, to show the symbolism and the link between the lake of fire and the buffeting we endure, in the process of being made more aware of our calling.

We are told that Jesus asked the question about faith when He returns;
Luke 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

The implied answer is “no”……or very little. Certainly the world in general does not understand that God is carrying out His plan - the salvation of mankind, despite what might appear to most to be total doom, considering all the possible ways there are of eradicating life from this planet.

God’s plan is a masterful one.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

An example of a man honest enough to admit tearfully that he lacked faith is found in Mark 9. He had had no success after asking Jesus’ disciples for assistance.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Another example of asking for more faith is found in Luke 17.
Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
I noted (in passing) that it is not a matter of letting a “wrong” go unnoticed, without anything being said – a rebuke is in order and then depending on the response, forgiveness is to follow.
Luke 17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
The apostles found this a bit of a “handful” and admitted their lack in complying……. they needed help.
Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

When I read of Jesus healing so many, the question arises….how was He able to do that, when He said that by Himself He could do nothing. It must have been His Father working through Him…..His Father is clearly supreme.

Healing involves the power to change bodily malfunctioning – destroying viruses, bacteria, straightening twisted ligaments, “mending damaged brains”…..we can easily read over the phrase “He [Jesus] healed” and give little thought to what it involves and how great a genius our Father is, to empower Jesus to perform the miracles.

I have wondered how the centurion displayed such faith, which, as far as he was concerned, only required Jesus to “speak the words”. The faith/confidence, which he had, came from God.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
It led Jesus to say, with surprise, He had not come across such in Israel.

When I consider that Jesus said He could have called on 12 legions of angels to deliver Him, [Matthew 26:53] I begin to get an idea of the faith that Jesus had in His Father to restore Him back to life……knowing that They had “agreed beforehand, with Jesus volunteering to die as He did, that was a supreme test of faith. It demonstrates for us His sincerity and absolute trust in His Father.

Jesus could see the “bigger picture”…..far better than we can, as we struggle to unravel the “mystery in the mirror”.
1 Cor 13:12 CLV For at present we are observing by means of a mirror, in an enigma, yet then, face to face.

Just before the 8th subheading THE WORLD IS GROANING FOR IT KNOWS NOT WHAT Ray wrote:

God is calling Sons and Daughters into Glory! All that He "foreknew" He will bring to fruition. But for what purpose? To roll ‘round heaven all day? To play harps and sing gospel music for all eternity? To glut ourselves on dainty foods like some fat monarch? What is God’s first order of the day when all these SONS of God are manifested? Just what will they do? Or will they do nothing? We read part of the answer in one of the Scriptures quoted above. Let’s read a little more.
‘There is a GRAND CHALLENGE AND MARVELLOUS WORK waiting to be accomplished by the manifested SONS OF GOD:

I appreciate the opportunity to share in the threads and learn from you, as we progress towards our "finish line". Colin
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: repottinger on October 10, 2015, 01:19:43 AM: Dear Jeff,
The only thing I can add to all of the fantastic comments that you’ve already received is a few things that we read in the scriptures. First, as Ray said so many times, ALL is of God.

Romans 11:36, AKJV

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I Corinthians 8:5-6, AKJV

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 but to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I Corinthians 11:12, AKJV

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

II Corinthians 5:18, AKJV

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Hebrews 2:10, AKJV

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Second, all things work together for good to those who are predestined to salvation by God.

Romans 8:28, AKJV

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Ephesians 1:11, AKJV

11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Third, Christ is the Saviour of all the world and God will have all to be saved, and so all are predestined to eventually be called to salvation.

I Timothy 2:3-4, AKJV

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I Timothy 4:10, AKJV

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

I John 4:14, AKJV

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

However, we do not know or understand all of God’s means of achieving these ends, and will never be able to do so in this life, because we are not God:

Job 38:4-7, AKJV

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 55:8-9, AKJV

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 9:14-23, AKJV

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I hope that this might be helpful to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 10, 2015, 01:27:19 AM: Colin,

What you wrote was well said and thoughtful. The message, if I understand, is that we are all buffeted from every direction, and are completely dependent on God to deliver us. I find myself thinking that Jesus had a benefit that we don't yet have. He was completely dependent on the Father, just as we are, but we lack the faith that Christ had (I do). Jesus knew who He was, where He came from, and where He was going. He knew. And while He had the same human experience that we have, we are like the disciples in the boat. We have the faith with which God has blessed us, but we don't have the insight or vision of Christ. Jesus knew He was the Lamb of God.

1 Corinthians 13:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I lack the vision that would give me confidence in my place in God's Kingdom. I know that and accept it, and pray for more faith, understanding and wisdom, but Jesus is God. Yeshua Ben Elohim.

Colossians 2:17
KJV
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus was able to see and understand the bigger picture, while we languish in the shadows, gleaning what can from God, Christ, and faithful teachers, and I'm grateful beyond measure for that, but long for God's Kingdom on earth. We all do.

I'm so thankful for what I have in the body of Christ, and whatever part I might have, if any, in God's plan for the salvation of mankind - in my spirit I long for so much more understanding, here and now.

You have a good and godly heart Colin, and I thank God for you, and everyone here. The belief in the Scriptures is, in this place of worship, strong beyond measure in all the world. I believe that.

Peace,
Jeff
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Jeff on October 10, 2015, 01:34:17 AM: Quote from: repottinger on October 10, 2015, 01:19:43 AM
Dear Jeff,
The only thing I can add to all of the fantastic comments that you’ve already received is a few things that we read in the scriptures. First, as Ray said so many times, ALL is of God.

II Corinthians 5:18, AKJV:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Second, all things work together for good to those who are predestined to salvation by God.

Romans 8:28, AKJV:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Third, God is the Saviour of all men and will have all to be saved, and so all will be called to salvation.

I Timothy 2:3-4, AKJV

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

I Timothy 4:10, AKJV

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

However, we do not know or understand all of God’s means of achieving these ends, and will never be able to do so in this life, because we are not God:

Job 38:4-7, AKJV

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Isaiah 55:8-9, AKJV

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I hope that this might be helpful to you.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

Thank you Randy. I take the Scripture you shared to heart and it gives me confidence to keep moving forward. Everything here, the Truths that God gave to Ray, the insight that continues to multiply as we pray, study, and grow, is a testament to the goodness of God, and His plan of salvation for all.

Jeff
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: repottinger on October 10, 2015, 02:23:01 AM: You're very welcome, Jeff; I'm truly happy to hear that. I will pray for the peace of God to keep your heart and mind through Christ Jesus.
Sincerely,
Randy
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: octoberose on October 10, 2015, 08:29:19 AM: The beginning of this thread was Jeff asking if Paul and others knew more suffering than Christ. What i want to add is that in the history of the workd there has never been a more evil thing than the creator of the universe dying for the sins of the created. Jesus not only died, but he died with the weight of all these sins you speak about on him. He was separated from his Father for the first time in his existence- for us. He sweat drops of blood before subjecting himself to this terrible thing. When Paul died, when anyone dies, they deserve death. They actually do becase the wages sin is death. But jesus did not deserve any of it. L
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: cheekie3 on October 10, 2015, 09:23:59 AM: octoberose -

I agree with what you have stated; apart from this segment:

He was separated from his Father for the first time in his existence- for us.

I do not believe Jesus Christ was separated from His Father while He lived as a human being, or died as a human being.

Jesus' spirit returned to His Father when he died as a human being.

Jesus' spirit was given a new Glorified spiritual body when He was resurrected by His Father.

I do not know if in the state of being dead, if Jesus Christ was not aware of anything as Abraham is not aware to this day - as I do not yet fully understand 100% all things about The One True God (The Father and His Son) - as it is an enigma - and Jesus Christ was the first in His Creation - and Jesus was unified with His Father from the beginning of all things; as when you see and hear Jesus Christ, you see and hear The Father.

Jesus Himself said that He had the power to give up His Life and Raise it up again - and the Scripture confirms that The Father resurrected Jesus Christ.

I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

As Ray said on many occasions - there is more to Our God than we realise.

In Holy Spirit.

George.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Kat on October 10, 2015, 10:45:37 AM: Quote from: cheekie3 on October 10, 2015, 09:23:59 AM

I do not know if in the state of being dead, if Jesus Christ was not aware of anything as Abraham is not aware to this day - as I do not yet fully understand 100% all things about The One True God (The Father and His Son) - as it is an enigma - and Jesus Christ was the first in His Creation - and Jesus was unified with His Father from the beginning of all things; as when you see and hear Jesus Christ, you see and hear The Father.

Jesus Himself said that He had the power to give up His Life and Raise it up again - and the Scripture confirms that The Father resurrected Jesus Christ.

I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

As Ray said on many occasions - there is more to Our God than we realise.

Hi George, I believe that it is important to understand that when Christ died for our sins, He was indeed dead. I do not believe this is an enigma, Ray spoke about it many times.

It's always good to review these aspects of truth and this is from the LOF article 16E. 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ----------------

"Death and hell [hades/unseen] followed with him" (Rev. 6:08)

Notice that again we have "death and hell" put together. The reason is rational: the one leads to the other (as in our three different definition for the word 'death'):

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell [Gk: hades] followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Rev. 6:08).

Clearly, sword, hunger, death, and beasts, are four methods of ending life which then brings all these categories to hell/hades, the realm of the DEAD. And this is the same hell/hades which our Lord was in when He was dead in the tomb, where it was prophesied that His soul (His sentient, animated life of feelings and emotions) would not be left there in this unseen, imperceptible, condition and realm of the dead.

And it is these dead "people," not dead "cadavers" which God is going to raise.
v
And when Jesus died for the sins of the world, He was also "dead." If Jesus was not dead as theologians and many Christians believe, then we don't have a Saviour. God the Father did not send Jesus' "body" to be the "Saviour of the world." Let's read it again:

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3).

It was "CHRIST" Who died for our sins and it was "CHRIST" Who was DEAD. When people "die," they are "dead." Christ "died," and Christ was "dead." And therefore, it is Christ Who is the Saviour of the World, not a "cadaver."

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent [Gk: 'send out on a mission'--hence a commission] the Son [Who? 'the Son.' The Son's body? NO, 'THE SON] to be the Saviour of the world" (I John 4:14).

Are we to believe that the "Saviour of the world" was a "cadaver"--the dead body of Jesus? Is that what the Father commissioned? NO, the Father commissioned "THE SON [Jesus Christ] to be the Saviour of the world." Who or What "died for our sins?" Someone's "body?" Let's read it again: "CHRIST died for our sins according to the Scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3). I'm going too fast again, aren't I? So why do orthodox Christian theologians teach that Jesus NEVER DIED, and since only His "body" died, then His "body" must be "the Saviour of the world."
v
Jesus died, and was DEAD. When they put Jesus' body in the tomb, they put JESUS in the tomb. When Jesus died for the sins of the world; Jesus was dead, not just His body. And when Jesus rose from the dead, it was not just His body. It is JESUS Who is the "Saviour of the world," and not just a corpse, a body, a cadaver? Christians have taught the world that man can't die. That he has an immortal soul that cannot die. That when people die they are not dead. That at death people "go somewhere." It is all unscriptural pagan nonsense.

Jesus' soul, His sentient being, His intellect, feelings, emotions, and heart, which define the human soul, went into a state of "imperceptibility." His soul was in the realm or state of hades which means "the unseen, the imperceptible," the state of death, the realm of the dead, the sheol of the Hebrew.
v
Now then, do the dead know that they are dead, or do they know anything at all?

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not ANYTHING" (Ecc. 9:5).
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I do not believe Jesus was lying when He said that He had the power to raise Himself up again from the dead.

We know that everything in creation exists in Him (Jesus Christ) - and The Father always does His work through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was still in charge of all things when He became a human being; as he was still unified with His Father.

Yes George, everything concerning this creation is, was and will be done through Christ, but we also know that everything that Christ is comes from the Father. Christ depend on the Father, the Father does not depend on Christ. So when Jesus was actually crucified and was dead (a critical part of the work of this creation), and was without life of any kind for that short period of time, it is not hard to figure that the Father continued to sustain this/His creation.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on October 10, 2015, 12:54:46 PM: I really wish we could discuss this topic further about the Enigma of God but alas we are not permitted here. All as God wills! So many interesting scriptures to consider and discuss.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: cheekie3 on October 10, 2015, 04:43:22 PM: Kat -

Off course Jesus Christ really died.

I am saying that even in death, I do not believe Jesus Christ was separated from His and Our Father.

There is a significant difference.

God is - and God created all things through Jesus Christ, including human life and death.

Jesus has the keys of Life and Death.

I do not believe Ray taught completely on the enigma that is The One True God - but I understand that he was about to - but it was not to be.

I do not fully understand the enigma of God - but I do not believe that Jesus was separated from His Father when He died as a human being.

If I am wrong, I am wrong - but I believe nothing can separate Jesus Christ from the Love of His Father - not even His death.

In Holy Spirit.

George.
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: rick on October 11, 2015, 04:34:00 PM: Quote from: cheekie3 on October 10, 2015, 04:43:22 PM
Kat -

I do not fully understand the enigma of God - but I do not believe that Jesus was separated from His Father when He died as a human being.

If I am wrong, I am wrong - but I believe nothing can separate Jesus Christ from the Love of His Father - not even His death.

George.

Hi Cheekie,

He is the God of the living not the dead because all are alive to God because He has the power to resurrect but Eve was deceived when Satan told her saying you shall surely not die, I know what Satan said to Eve and I see many graveyards every time I go out, Satan is the father of lies.

God said to Adam if you eat of the tree I commanded you not to eat of you will surely die but Satan said to Eve you will not surely die but who are you going to believe ? Christ died the day He was crucified His thoughts perished that day, the living know they shall die but the dead know nothing.

Even though Christ was dead the Father still loved Christ, His death did not nor could it stop the love of the Father from Christ His son.

This is how Christendom deceives people into believing there is a hell by telling them when you die you’re not really dead, if you were good you go to heaven but if you were bad then you go to hell. If that is true what need of the resurrection from the dead is there if we don’t die as stated by God.

Christendom is still telling the first recorded lie that Satan started way back in the garden of Eden. I don’t believe Satan and I certainly don’t believe Christendom, I believe God and when God said you will die He means you will die.

Who ran creation when Christ die, simple, God the Father did. The Father is good at everything even running the whole creation without error. Remember Christ said be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect so one can say the Father was perfect at running the whole creation while Christ laid dead in a tomb with no thoughts at all because the dead know nothing.

God bless. :)
Title: Re: The Cross
Post by: Gina on October 12, 2015, 12:59:42 AM: Quote from: Jeff on October 09, 2015, 02:01:46 AM
Quote from: cheekie3 on October 09, 2015, 01:33:57 AM
Jeff -

Someone whose three month old son tragically died said that no one loved her son more than her.

I believe Our Father and Our Saviour loved her son more than she did; as His Love is greater than ours.

I also believe that all suffering each of us all have is shared by Him.

Each of us have our own share of pain and suffering - but He has all of our combined aggregated pain and suffering.

He shares His Great Love with us - and He shares our great pain and suffering with us.

He is in total control of all things - but not remote of the pain and suffering we all experience - as He is part of all of us and we are all part of Him.

It is s like the pain a mother or father has when their child is suffering - except He has suffered the child's pain with the child.

He forces us all to suffer - and He suffers with each and every human being.

The Father also suffered with Jesus the pain Jesus suffered on the Cross and all that led to the Cross.

I believe that the suffering of Jesus leading to the cross, and on the cross was the greatest imposed on a human being.

I too hate all the evil in the world - and Our Heavenly Father states that Jesus loves Righteousness and hates wickedness.

I hope this helps.

Kind Regards.

In Holy Spirit.

George.

George,

Thank you, but WHY?

God taught us to pray for understanding, knowledge and wisdom.

I pray for this and don't know. Is my question heretical? Is it wrong to question? Is it wrong to seek answers? The horror we inflict on each other is beyond my ability to just accept. Accepting would mean complacency. Are we called to that?

How much suffering is enough?

I don't know the mind of God, but I am, we are, His Creation. He gave us minds that question, and desire to understand. Our hearts are fashioned by Him. Is it evil to desire a Spiritual understanding of evil? Especially when it's truly horrific?

if I had more faith I would pray for the destruction of this exceedingly sinful world. I continuously ask Him to remove me from it, because it's more than I can bear.

Hi, Jeff

When Saul was on the Damascus Road on his way to harass and persecute and kill more Christians, what happened? He was struck down and heard a voice that said, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting them?" No, that's not what was said. The voice said:

"Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me [the Lord, Jesus]?"

How could Paul have been persecuting the Lord Jesus when Jesus by this time had ascended to His Father? Easy:

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited Me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you came to visit Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see You a stranger and invite You in, or needing clothes and clothe You?

39 When did we see You sick or in prison and go to visit You?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of Mine, you did for Me.’

The goats:

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help You?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me.’

This means the lives and brutal deaths and abuses of others who are even babes in Christ (and innocent children), is no less significant than Christ's. According to Jesus, whatever you do to one of the least of these brothers of His, you're doing it to Christ. That's saying a lot.

I don't know who the sheep and goats will be, but Jesus said, The righteous will say "When did we see You in all these conditions and feed You?" Completely UNpretentious (like little children would respond).

Whereas the unrighteous (goats) will say, "When did we see You in all these predicaments and not do these things for You?"

God knows it is not wise to make yourself poor or "get stupid" about what loving others is. I mean, you don't want to be opening up your home to people who say they are Christians only to find that they are raping your daughter while you're at work, okay? I don't think this is to be taken that literally. And I don't believe that Christ would ever tell us to do something that He doesn't first equip us to do, because where else are we supposed to get all this love to love others? The love (fruit of the spirit) has to come from God. We can't form that fruit apart from Him.

Any way, try to be strong and ask the Lord to strengthen you because Satan just loves to see us get all worked up about these things. When we are that upset (heated) by what Satan is doing we don't think too clearly, and when aren't thinking clearly, we forget the words of God, like Christ came to UNdo the works of the devil. All these things are a test for your faith, and I'm praying for you that your faith doesn't fail. This stuff will shake you up.

But you can be glad that your reaction is one of horror and that it makes you poor in spirit, why? Easy:

3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted

You and your kind will inherit the earth, You and your kind shall SEE God!

And death is swallowed up in victory. And the last enemy to be abolished is death. (So don't freak out and think that another's death or torture is not as significant as Christ's death. Jesus NEVER said that. It's just that their deaths cannot atone for sin. Okay?)

You said (and I've said this too myself):
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I continuously ask Him to remove me from it, because it's more than I can bear.

I totally understand. Jesus said:

I'm not asking you to take them out of the world, but to keep them safe from the evil one John 17:15

To be kept safe from the evil (one) doesn't mean that we will never see or experience evil. We will. It means that evil won't overcome us so that we are rendered powerless and ineffective and end up becoming the very thing we hate (evil workers), thank God, because the traps are everywhere. Just be aware and on guard but keep your eyes on Jesus so you don't sink like Peter did when he wanted to walk with Jesus on the tumultuous water.

29 Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!”

31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”

32 And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down.

33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”