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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on January 10, 2015, 02:12:07 PM
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Dear Forum,
I apologize for my conduct in the thread which degenerated from Christ's words in the garden and at the cross into the topic of Christ's power and relationship to the Father. While I don't feel I mislead anyone on matters of what Christ said in the garden and at the cross, the issue of Christ's power and even His relationship to God as being God and one with God is a gray area for not only many but this forum as well. I do believe the issue returns time and time again because our God is trying to drag us to that complete understanding of Him but regardless I should not have been apart of the confusion, if there was any, and for that I am deeply sorry. The last thing I would want is to cause anyone confusion.
Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word! Now, that being said as well, I cannot see how Christ retained His Godly power(s) and only emptied Himself of His "glory" IF He could be killed. Though the scriptures don't specifically state Christ emptied Himself of just His glory either. Would not retaining the power of God prevent Him from truly taking on the form of a SLAVE and coming in the likeness of man to die? Perhaps these are thoughts we currently don't have the wisdom as a body to answer and in time God will provide it or perhaps we will never know it to a 100% certainty. If anyone feels they believe to know how these two things are possible and it is not something taught by Ray then feel free to send me a private message and I will try the matter and search the scriptures out to see if it is so. If ray did explain this dichotomy then please feel free to share that here in this thread as I'm sure many could benefit.
Anyway, I apologize if I was apart of any confusion for any on this latter more complexing issue. If the mods feel any of my posts added to any confusion or contrary to ray then I would kindly ask they be removed from that thread for future eyes that may stumble upon it.
As for me now, I won't rest until I figure this out! Its time to search all the gospels through and through because I just need to know. This issue keeps coming up here and like I said, I think its for a reason! Keep on digging my brothers and sisters and may God bless you in your searches to know Him more fully.
Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
In Christ,
Alex
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Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word! Now, that being said as well, I cannot see how Christ retained His Godly power(s) and only emptied Himself of His "glory" IF He could be killed. Though the scriptures don't specifically state Christ emptied Himself of just His glory either. Would not retaining the power of God prevent Him from truly taking on the form of a SLAVE and coming in the likeness of man to die? Perhaps these are thoughts we currently don't have the wisdom as a body to answer and in time God will provide it or perhaps we will never know it to a 100% certainty. If anyone feels they believe to know how these two things are possible and it is not something taught by Ray then feel free to send me a private message and I will try the matter and search the scriptures out to see if it is so. If ray did explain this dichotomy then please feel free to share that here in this thread as I'm sure many could benefit.
Hi Alex, I'm going to try to put something together that may help with this.
God gives us all a human spirit when we begin this life, I believe He also puts a spirit of life in spirit being as well that gives them individuality. This is what I can see that Ray indicated by this email.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ----
the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.
Jer 23:20 The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has executed and performed the thoughts of His heart. In the latter days you will understand it perfectly.
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
Because Scripture speaks of God's heart and mind, I think all being have this... now maybe our heart and mind is not exactly like angels, but I do believe they have a capacity to think and reason as well.
The words heart and mind are hard to distinguish in Scripture as they are uses interchangeably, but we can still gather from Scripture that Christ certainly had these elements to His being. Here is an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4178.0 -------------
No, the heart is not "just a pump." In fact it is very rare that the heart is represented in Scripture as a literal organ of the body. The "heart" of man is the seat of his deepest moral and emotional feelings.
But, no, it is not the "mind." There are separate words for "heart" and "mind" in Scripture. The mind pertains more to the intellect.
You have heard that statement: "You make me sick to my STOMACH," haven't you? The reason for this is, that deep and profound emotions can be felt in the mid-section of our torso. The people of Mesopotamia thought that the liver was the center and cause of these emotions. The Hebrews realized that it was the heart that pumped the life-sustaining blood throughout the body, hence the heart was considered the center of emotional and moral conduct (be it evil or good). This is why Jesus taught that evil thoughts of lust and hate and sin come from the heart, rather than from the mind.
One may compose a love letter in one's mind, but the feelings are coming from that part of our psyche called the heart. Likewise a murderer may make the technical plans to carry out his dirty deed in his mind, but the motivation is in his heart.
We all need to [1] "Let this MIND be in you which is also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5), and [2] "Take up My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, because I am meek and and humble in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matt. 11:29).
God be with you,
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Now what I am trying to establish is that the Son had a spirit of Life along with the Holy Spirit of God (without measure) and this was transferred into the mortal body that He received when He was born into the flesh to make Him a living soul. He certainly retained the mind/knowledge of God, because He remember who He was and where He came from...
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
With this mind Jesus processed the attributes of God and certainly would have included the knowledge/relationship He had with the Father. This is assumptions, but I do not see how He would have been God, nor knew and did the things He did without that mind. Why would that be removed anyway? His mind was what recorded His experiences and His spirit at death was sent back to the Father until His resurrection.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3617.0.html ---
Man is "made up" as you put it of body and spirit. Soul is not an ingredient. Soul is the RESULT of uniting the spirit with the body. God made man of the dust of the ground and breathed His spirit into Adam, and then Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL. God did not put "a soul" inside of Adam. When men die, the spirit returns to God, for spirit does not die. The body returns to the dust of the ground. The soul goes (that is ceases) to exist and is said to be in "sheol" or "hades" which is the realm of death, it is not a geographical location. Man has no memory or thoughts in death (Ecc. 9:5, etc., etc.).
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What I believe was removed from Him when He came into the flesh was certainly not His mind/understanding or the Holy Spirit, but His immortality, He became mortal - Son of Man, lower/less/inferior to the angels in that they have immortality and He no longer did.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. (NKJV)
Heb 2:9 But, Jesus, made some little less than messengers, we do behold: by reason of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour, to the end that, by favour of God, in behalf of every one, he might taste of death. (Rotherham)
Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made some bit inferior to messengers (because of the suffering of death, wreathed with glory and honor), so that in the grace of God, He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone." (CLV)
How was Christ's immortality removed from Him? Well I don't know, but certainly the Father was capable of doing that. So at Jesus' birth instead of God giving Him a human spirit that was a clean slate like we got, He had His own mind put within that tiny baby. What that must have been like for Him growing up is really hard to imagine, but was part of what He had to experience to be fully man, everything that we have to.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
v. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
Thanks for taking the time to share that. It was helpful but I have to confess this part of your post confuses me:
"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
I have no contention with the rest of what you posted but still wonder why we are so adamant it was merely his Glory He emptied Himself when Paul does not specify but only compares the being equal to God prior to making that statement of emptying Himself.
Php 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
It just says He emptied Himself and really doesn't specify exactly what that constitutes but the fact that He could now die just made me think that this would include more than just His "glory." Now just to be clear, I've never thought Christ relinquished the mind of God because by the Holy spirit of His Father, He did not have a carnal mind like we do.
Thank you.
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Alex,
I don’t see why you should apologize for speaking what you honestly believed to be the truth, if we discover by the grace of God our belief is off then of course we repent and change our belief towards the truth.
I know we can all identify with our belief system being off because of the teaching of Christendom
God bless you my brother in Christ.. :)
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"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
Okay Alex, what I'm saying is that the spirit of man and Christ and all spirit being I would assume, when united with a body (physical body or spiritual body) that's what gives it a soul. That is what contains the mind - heart (not talking about a physical heart here) the soul that is formed when spirit and body combine/unite. So that mind and heart (seat of our emotions) in us is what gives us consciousness and the ability to think, reason, love, hate, etc... as Ray said so many times, we have he ability to make our own choices.
Here is a little excerpt from an article.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -----------------
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
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When the body dies and then the body and soul dissolves, returns to dust, no body no soul. The spirit of life given at birth no longer has a place/body to give it life/animation and the Father receives it back to Himself.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak. But those things only function in a body, and at death it is asleep and will remain unconscious until God wakes the spirit up at resurrection by giving it a new body, either spiritual (elect) or another physical body for those not written in the Book of life (Rev 20:15).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html -------
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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"So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
How does the spirit consist of the mind and heart if when we die, and the spirit returns to God, we lose all consciousness? Ray said Christ's spirit returned to God but that He was dead, lacked consciousness. So wouldn't we retain consciousness if the spirit contained the mind and heart? Wouldn't Christ have been conscious then if His mind and heart was in His spirit? I thought it was the combination of the spirit (breath of life) and body (dust of the earth) that gives rise to our SOUL which is the consciousness (mind) and heart (personality)?
Okay Alex, what I'm saying is that the spirit of man and Christ and all spirit being I would assume, when united with a body (physical body or spiritual body) that's what gives it a soul. That is what contains the mind - heart (not talking about a physical heart here) the soul that is formed when spirit and body combine/unite. So that mind and heart (seat of our emotions) in us is what gives us consciousness and the ability to think, reason, love, hate, etc... as Ray said so many times, we have he ability to make our own choices.
Here is a little excerpt from an article.
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -----------------
The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).
A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
----------------------------------------------------------
When the body dies and then the body and soul dissolves, returns to dust, no body no soul. The spirit of life given at birth no longer has a place/body to give it life/animation and the Father receives it back to Himself.
Ecc 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak. But those things only function in a body, and at death it is asleep and will remain unconscious until God wakes the spirit up at resurrection by giving it a new body, either spiritual (elect) or another physical body for those not written in the Book of life (Rev 20:15).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3933.0.html -------
At death, our spirit returns to God, but the spirit has not consciousness. The consciousness is called "soul," but the soul dies at death, and the body returns to the dust. In resurrection God puts our spirit back into a NEW body and we once again experience soul--life and animation.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3253.0.html ---
No, sheol is not the grave. There is another word for grave. Sheol is the "state" or "realm" or "condition" of the dead. And the spirit is not the soul. The spirit does not have consciousness. The spirit cannot think thoughts, and that is why our "thoughts perish" at death according to David. Our spirit as well as Christ Spirit had to be reunited with a BODY before we or He would have consciousness again. Jesus was DEAD for three days, not "absent from the body" for three days.
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Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
Thanks for trying again. I agree with you that the union of the spirit (breath of life) and the body (be it dust of the earth or spiritual) is what gives it a soul. I know you are not talking about a physical heart.
So now answer me plainly if you can, the soul contains the mind and heart?
It seems from your subsequent argument to follow the first initial point that you are not saying this is the case.
Specifically: "That spirit that God has received back has all the information of who that person is within it, it is the person's mind and heart, so to speak"
Also previously you told me: ""So what I'm getting at is that as spirit being, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God."
From what I understand you to be saying is one of two things:
1)the soul of man is his consciousness and that the spirit is what contains the heart and mind.
2)You could also be saying that the Soul is the medium by way of consciousness, which comes about through the union of body and spirit, that allows the mind and heart, which originates from the spirit, to be perceived and expressed.
Are any of these correct in what you're trying to say? If so, which one?
Personally, I always thought it was much simpler than either of these cases but I guess I missed it completely. I always thought it was breath of life (Spirit) + body (Dust of the earth or spiritual body) = Soul which is the consciousness of man and that being his heart and mind.
God bless,
Alex
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I guess maybe I am making this more complicated than it really is in my attempt to explain it. You seem to mainly be understanding what I'm trying to say, but maybe the heart and mind thing is confusing it.
So let me try again, thinking of the body as just a physical container (Paul calls it a tent) for a person, that includes the brain and physical heart that makes it physically live. Now the spirit gives us breath and life to put the body into motion so to function.
But man is not complete just like that, that is what all animals have. We are much more than that, so that's what separates man from animal... the heart and mind, which gives us the internal workings of a person so they can learn, reason, dream, hope, plan, and experience joy, fear, love, gratitude, hate etc... Those are the aspects of a person that makes them so much higher than animal life and gives us personality and makes us individuals.
I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember, that's what our mind does for us, and that mind is within body/container/tent, with the spirit/breath to make a soul.
We see from the Scripture that the body will go back to dust when it dies, when that happens it also removes the soul, and what's left is that unconscious spirit. So what I think is that this spirit essence of a person that God takes back at death must contain the record of the memory of the person, and it is placed back in the person when they are brought back to life at resurrection, so they are the very same person in every way.
I hope we're getting somewhere and I'm not just confusing the heck out of you...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I guess maybe I am making this more complicated than it really is in my attempt to explain it. You seem to mainly be understanding what I'm trying to say, but maybe the heart and mind thing is confusing it.
So let me try again, thinking of the body as just a physical container (Paul calls it a tent) for a person, that includes the brain and physical heart that makes it physically live. Now the spirit gives us breath and life to put the body into motion so to function.
But man is not complete just like that, that is what all animals have. We are much more than that, so that's what separates man from animal... the heart and mind, which gives us the internal workings of a person so they can learn, reason, dream, hope, plan, and experience joy, fear, love, gratitude, hate etc... Those are the aspects of a person that makes them so much higher than animal life and gives us personality and makes us individuals.
I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember, that's what our mind does for us, and that mind is within body/container/tent, with the spirit/breath to make a soul.
We see from the Scripture that the body will go back to dust when it dies, when that happens it also removes the soul, and what's left is that unconscious spirit. So what I think is that this spirit essence of a person that God takes back at death must contain the record of the memory of the person, and it is placed back in the person when they are brought back to life at resurrection, so they are the very same person in every way.
I hope we're getting somewhere and I'm not just confusing the heck out of you...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
This post was much clearer. We are on the same page now. I understand what you are saying. I don't think I necessarily disagree either but I do have a question then. If the mind and heart originate from the spirit that God gave us, that spirit of man, breathe of life, how does one come about having a carnal mind?
I was under the impression that because the mind and heart originate from the soul which comes about through a union of earthy (dust of the earth) and spirit (Breath of life) that this dust of the earth could influence that mind which in part exists because of it thereby making us carnal minded. However, if the spirit is the origin of the mind, how do we end up being carnal minded?
God bless,
Alex
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I believe the carnal nature must be inherent to being human, yes these lusts are in our flesh, but not literally caused by the flesh.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Here a question for you Alex, does your hand make you steal? Does your eye make you lust?
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Here is an excerpt from LoF no. 16 article concerning this Scripture.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html --------------------
THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. You are not to literally, cut off your feet or your hands or pluck out your eyes. The words of our Lord are figurative, symbolic language, which have to do with a higher spiritual truth, but have nothing to do with literal dismemberment of your physical body.
It is what you sinfully touch with your hands and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is where you sinfully walk with your feet and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is what you sinfully lust after with your eyes and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is the HEART that is, "Deceitful above all things and exceedingly wicked," not our eyes, hands and feet, (Jer. 17:9).
It is out of our HEART that, "…proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies," not from our eyes, hands and feet, (Matt. 15:19).
v
Jesus said that it would be:
"…better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [eonian] fire"(Matt. 18:08).
We have seen that our Lord’s instructions to cut off an offending hand or foot, or to pluck out an offending eye is not literal, but figurative, spiritual, symbolic language. It is really the offenses of the heart, which are to be cast off, not our physical limbs.
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It's the lust of the flesh that Paul said he wrestled with, why?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now we know the whole passage of how he wanted to do what he could not do... this is his flesh, but not literally and you know the way that passage ends...
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes it's only through the Spirit of Jesus Christ can we overcome sin - carnality - the flesh, and it does not rule/reign over us. So I'll just add this next passage from the Good News Bible because it fits what this is saying.
Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.
v. 13 Nor must you surrender any part of yourselves to sin to be used for wicked purposes. Instead, give yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life, and surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.
v. 14 Sin must not be your master; for you do not live under law but under God's grace.
Hope this helped answer your question.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Back to the first issue.
I Believe Jesus was a little less that the angels, but more than a human. (Humans don't walk in the water and turn water to wine). I am saying, He was all human to be able to fully simpathize with us. But then he was more than that. You can temporaly empty a glass more than half way.only...right?
Also I think that the way that Jesus was tempted/tried was similar as when we believers are. When we are spiritually strong and a pretty girl catch our eye, we don't let that thought to develope (we plug out our eye, right away!), and move on into better thoughts. With practice is less hard. If I am not interested in nice cars, nice cars are not so much of a strong desire for me. I think Jesus was more interested on his fathers bussines than anything else.
First the hearth gets the feeling or the emotions and then we go directly to fall, except if a bigger feeling and emotion trigers our hearth and stop it.
I don't think that Jesus ever had any pervert strong desires going on in his mind. (He knew exactly how the human will works and he could prevent those desires.--after all, He had the mind of God...).
What can be more humbling than Jesus becoming mortal?
And what act of love could be grater than Jesus our God, dying for us?
THINK
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I believe the carnal nature must be inherent to being human, yes these lusts are in our flesh, but not literally caused by the flesh.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Here a question for you Alex, does your hand make you steal? Does your eye make you lust?
Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
v. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
Here is an excerpt from LoF no. 16 article concerning this Scripture.
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html --------------------
THE WORDS OF JESUS ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY. You are not to literally, cut off your feet or your hands or pluck out your eyes. The words of our Lord are figurative, symbolic language, which have to do with a higher spiritual truth, but have nothing to do with literal dismemberment of your physical body.
It is what you sinfully touch with your hands and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is where you sinfully walk with your feet and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is what you sinfully lust after with your eyes and your mind that must be repented of in your HEART.
It is the HEART that is, "Deceitful above all things and exceedingly wicked," not our eyes, hands and feet, (Jer. 17:9).
It is out of our HEART that, "…proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies," not from our eyes, hands and feet, (Matt. 15:19).
v
Jesus said that it would be:
"…better for you to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [eonian] fire"(Matt. 18:08).
We have seen that our Lord’s instructions to cut off an offending hand or foot, or to pluck out an offending eye is not literal, but figurative, spiritual, symbolic language. It is really the offenses of the heart, which are to be cast off, not our physical limbs.
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It's the lust of the flesh that Paul said he wrestled with, why?
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Now we know the whole passage of how he wanted to do what he could not do... this is his flesh, but not literally and you know the way that passage ends...
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
v. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
v. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
v. 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
Yes it's only through the Spirit of Jesus Christ can we overcome sin - carnality - the flesh, and it does not rule/reign over us. So I'll just add this next passage from the Good News Bible because it fits what this is saying.
Rom 6:12 Sin must no longer rule in your mortal bodies, so that you obey the desires of your natural self.
v. 13 Nor must you surrender any part of yourselves to sin to be used for wicked purposes. Instead, give yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life, and surrender your whole being to him to be used for righteous purposes.
v. 14 Sin must not be your master; for you do not live under law but under God's grace.
Hope this helped answer your question.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
Good post. Definitely makes more sense to me now from what you originally were trying to say.
So just to be clear (Yes or no answers would be good):
My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
Thanks again Kat for sticking with me on this. I am benefiting! God willing, you are too! :)
God bless,
Alex
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Great post everyone. Just some thoughts, Kat , dogs can learn and fear and a few other things with there mind. Now if the heart and mind return to God then they must have come from God and would that not be touching the false doctrine of the law of circularity? I also need some better understanding of this! I was under the same belief as Alex. I read your post but the animal thing through me off ,as you can see what I said about dogs, here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul. Side note, Alex, Kat I really appreciate how you guys dig and dig until the answers becomes clearer!
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My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
Alex, well I think the first question maybe no it was not incorrect. Because I think it must be the combination of spirit and body that creates our mind... the spirit (essence) that give breath/life is a clean slate at first, it takes the brain (physical) in conjunction with it to then function together within a person and then we can think, that's our mind.
But your second question then seems right too, because the mind is "expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?"
But the flesh is totally controlled by the mind, it (flesh) has no desires of itself, those come from the mind/heart. The flesh just give us the means to carry out the desires that originate in the mind. This is the carnality that we all have "the mind of the flesh" that is human reasoning that produce nothing good, "no one does good, not even one" (Rom 3:12).
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
v. 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
v. 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But when the Holy Spirit joins with our spirit, everything changes... only then can we from within by His Spirit indwelling override the pulls of the fleshly mind.
v. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul.
Hi Mike, yes that indeed is true. And yes animals must have a mind/soul (body+spirit) as well... it does need to think which way to run to survive. But the human's mind is tremendously more advanced than an animals, which works basically on instinct. An animal can never know God, actually we are the only master/god they can comprehend.
So I hope you can see there is no law of circularity going on. The spirit/breath of life is but the mean by which God provides for us to have consciousness, it is the mind/soul formed by the spirit and body that creates a thinking person. So then at death God brings that spirit back to Himself, it is then filled with the knowledge/memory of that person. So then that mind/soul will be put back into a resurrected body there is the exact same person.
Alex, I thought I understood this somewhat, but you have caused me to really think hard about all these things. That's what we all need to do in order to gain a better understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I guess I'm thinking it's more like your no. 2. All these things that a person experiences need to recorded or remember
Hi Kat,
I’m confused because Ray was quite clear when he said that there is not a lambs book of life, that is symbolic . Jesus is the lambs book of life. Jesus does not need a book, He is God who knows all things.
Ray also said that the spirit has no conscience so it would stand to reason it would not have any memory either. When a body receives God’s spirit it becomes a living soul according to Rays papers.
Tying that in with God who knows the ends from the beginning as well as its not in man to direct his footsteps and also no free will leads me to believe God does not need ones spirit to record anything,
Jesus is the book of all books if you will.
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Hi Rick, I understand what you are saying. Yes it is symbolic, it's not literal, God certainly does not need anything to remember them things about us. There are certainly not little spirits floating around that has our life history on them ;) It just a way of saying it so we can understand it better, it's for our benefit to use those terms.
The Spirit does not have consciousness, it must be united with a body and brain for that to happen, but the mind/heart is also in the soul that forms from that, as those are all abstract elements.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
This is an awesome topic and good for reiterating Ray’s teachings. I consider the brain an organ like the heart or kidneys etc.
Ray said God lives in His heaven and man lives in his heaven too, mans heaven is in his brain, mans soul resides in his brain which is only an organ, his soul is who he is what he is what he feels, its his emotions.
You stated mind/heart, the heart of man or the mind of man is one in the same, there is no difference between the two. When the brain is dead then also the soul is dead or when the heart of man is dead so then the man is dead.
Christendom says that man was made in three parts, body soul and spirit but we know man was made in only two parts body and spirit and then the man became a living soul, spirit is the life force in us, it has no consciousness no memory no heart no mind.
Christendom believes we are spirit being and that we cannot die which is contrary to what Ray has taught, for the soul that sins shall die also the living know they will die but the dead know nothing, there is no knowledge in the grave nothing for ones hands to do, well one cannot be alive and dead at the same time at least physically.
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Great post everyone. Just some thoughts, Kat , dogs can learn and fear and a few other things with there mind. Now if the heart and mind return to God then they must have come from God and would that not be touching the false doctrine of the law of circularity? I also need some better understanding of this! I was under the same belief as Alex. I read your post but the animal thing through me off ,as you can see what I said about dogs, here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul. Side note, Alex, Kat I really appreciate how you guys dig and dig until the answers becomes clearer!
Ray put it this way: We are not spiritual beings having a physical experience. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience.
That's what this life is. I'll admit that this is hard news for religiously-minded folks. "We" have to come to terms with a LOT of terms--not the least of which is "spirit" itself.
Are dogs or dolphins having a 'spiritual experience'? We barely know what they are 'thinking' and can usually only interpret it through the prism of our own experience. IF they are (and I'm not saying they are), then it is a 'spiritual experience' of a different sort. God said "Let us make MANKIND in our image."
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Alex, we are all prone to "mis-speaking". I reckon the only ones who don't are the ones who never speak. I could show you places Ray "mis-spoke". To his credit, he NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.
Do you think the Scripture says the same things so many different ways and in so many different "flavors" because the more we know of them, the better we understand? Is that why "scripture cannot contradict itself"? Doesn't James further explain Paul?
Does 'scripture' contradict our understanding at various points along the way? Does it contradict our theologies and doctrines along the way? Does it contradict our behavior along the way?
Hang in there. Sometimes even the English language is "mis-speaking". We just have to do the best we can. As for me, not everything fits in a forum post any longer.
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Hi Rick, it's so very hard to put my exact thoughts down on how I see this and I am probably not saying making it that clear. But the heart and mind are not the very same thing, I did not mean to say/imply that. They do both carry out the inter workings of a person that makes us who we are, but somewhat different aspects of that. I found an email from Ray that should help with this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4178.0 -----
No, the heart is not "just a pump." In fact it is very rare that the heart is represented in Scripture as a literal organ of the body. The "heart" of man is the seat of his deepest moral and emotional feelings.
But, no, it is not the "mind." There are separate words for "heart" and "mind" in Scripture. The mind pertains more to the intellect.
You have heard that statement: "You make me sick to my STOMACH," haven't you? The reason for this is, that deep and profound emotions can be felt in the mid-section of our torso. The people of Mesopotamia thought that the liver was the center and cause of these emotions. The Hebrews realized that it was the heart that pumped the life-sustaining blood throughout the body, hence the heart was considered the center of emotional and moral conduct (be it evil or good). This is why Jesus taught that evil thoughts of lust and hate and sin come from the heart, rather than from the mind.
One may compose a love letter in one's mind, but the feelings are coming from that part of our psyche called the heart. Likewise a murderer may make the technical plans to carry out his dirty deed in his mind, but the motivation is in his heart.
We all need to [1] "Let this MIND be in you which is also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5), and [2] "Take up My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, because I am meek and and humble in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls" (Matt. 11:29).
God be with you,
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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My original understanding of the mind and heart originating and existing in the soul was incorrect?
If the answer to the above is yes, then that means the spirit is where the heart and mind originate but are expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?
If the above is yes, then the flesh, our container, influences our heart and mind(which resides in our spirit) through its carnal nature, and therefor, unless God intervenes and gives us His Holy spirit, we give into the influences/pulls/desires of the flesh that are affecting us and thus are considered to have be "carnal" minded?
Alex, well I think the first question maybe no it was not incorrect. Because I think it must be the combination of spirit and body that creates our mind... the spirit (essence) that give breath/life is a clean slate at first, it takes the brain (physical) in conjunction with it to then function together within a person and then we can think, that's our mind.
But your second question then seems right too, because the mind is "expressed through the medium provided by the union of body and soul known as our consciousness?"
But the flesh is totally controlled by the mind, it (flesh) has no desires of itself, those come from the mind/heart. The flesh just give us the means to carry out the desires that originate in the mind. This is the carnality that we all have "the mind of the flesh" that is human reasoning that produce nothing good, "no one does good, not even one" (Rom 3:12).
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
v. 7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
v. 8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But when the Holy Spirit joins with our spirit, everything changes... only then can we from within by His Spirit indwelling override the pulls of the fleshly mind.
v. 9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
here I thought it was clear that the body needs the spirit of life to make a living conscious soul.
Hi Mike, yes that indeed is true. And yes animals must have a mind/soul (body+spirit) as well... it does need to think which way to run to survive. But the human's mind is tremendously more advanced than an animals, which works basically on instinct. An animal can never know God, actually we are the only master/god they can comprehend.
So I hope you can see there is no law of circularity going on. The spirit/breath of life is but the mean by which God provides for us to have consciousness, it is the mind/soul formed by the spirit and body that creates a thinking person. So then at death God brings that spirit back to Himself, it is then filled with the knowledge/memory of that person. So then that mind/soul will be put back into a resurrected body there is the exact same person.
Alex, I thought I understood this somewhat, but you have caused me to really think hard about all these things. That's what we all need to do in order to gain a better understanding.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I will attempt to respond but bare with me I have not had my morning coffee and slept poorly last night. I am still very tired but cannot get back to sleep.
Now I think we may be coming full circle but I am thinking more of what I held originally as correct rather than what I thought you were trying to tell me. I'm not sure If you see it the way I'm about to explain it but it seems you do and for the sake of other members who are following this I will now speak it plainly.
The soul is the originator of the heart and mind. The union of body and spirit which give rise to the soul allow this heart and mind to find a medium for expression. Now for all of our discourse, I do think it could be possible for the spirit to contain a record of this heart and mind, an imprint of the life lived, that returns back to God for safe keeping until the appointed time but if this is the case, and that's an if, I am more convinced now that the spirit does not originate the heart and mind as I thought you were trying to say.
What came into my mind this morning was Gehenna. Specifically:
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
What does God do any different here than man if the spirit contains the heart and mind? Destroy the soul? If the spirit originates and contains the heart and mind, then what man does when He kills the body would result in the same thing God does when He destroys the soul. The cessation of only the consciousness and nothing else. So what's the point of the warning then? Is God being redundant? Of course not, this is a talk on Gehenna and how to put off the flesh. The reason we fear God is because He can destroy our souls which is the origins of our heart and mind and not because we simply cease to be conscious for a time! We have the carnal mind when we are born and this must be destroyed but only God who can destroy the soul has the power to do this, not men who destroy the body.
So plainly: Men killing the body may end our consciousness for a season but it does not purify our hearts and minds like the destruction of our souls (the originator of these two things) would. Since our souls are the originator of the mind and heart it would make sense for Christ to tell us to fear God who can destroy this however none of this would make sense if the spirit were the origins of the heart and mind because God is not destroying the spirit.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
He never says with all thy spirit. If this were the origins of the heart and mind, would it not be with all thy spirit? I don't know... I'm sincerely asking. I find it strange it is not present in this commandment.
Interestingly Job says this of God
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
The soul has desire? When I desire things I desire them with my heart and mind, is this not the soul then?
Proverbs 21:10 The soul of the wicked desireth evil: his neighbour findeth no favour in his eyes.
Now, interestingly, Isaiah says our soul desires God but our spirit seeks Him:
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
If you disagree with me Kat, please let me know. I am still searching this out but for some of these reason I feel that the soul is the origins of the heart and mind and that our soul being partly a result due to a fleshy body is greatly influenced by it which results in what God terms a carnal mind. This carnal mind will be changed slowly as the old man dies, as we put off the flesh, as parts of that mind are cut off and throw into gehenna fire and have it renewed by the spirit of God, the mind of Christ etc... As I said originally, I do think its possible for the spirit of man to be imprinted with the life of a person and return to God as a record but I don't know if that is even necessary for God to remember a person and bring them back.
Well I am grateful to be searching this matter out with you Kat and God willing we will get to the bottom of this!
Still digging.
With love,
Alex
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Alex, we are all prone to "mis-speaking". I reckon the only ones who don't are the ones who never speak. I could show you places Ray "mis-spoke". To his credit, he NEVER SAID HE DIDN'T.
Do you think the Scripture says the same things so many different ways and in so many different "flavors" because the more we know of them, the better we understand? Is that why "scripture cannot contradict itself"? Doesn't James further explain Paul?
Does 'scripture' contradict our understanding at various points along the way? Does it contradict our theologies and doctrines along the way? Does it contradict our behavior along the way?
Hang in there. Sometimes even the English language is "mis-speaking". We just have to do the best we can. As for me, not everything fits in a forum post any longer.
Thank you Dave. Ray did say that all of God's Word was one.
I don't know... I am overwhelmed at how complex and full of wisdom this Word of God's is. I sit down to study it as I am inspired and I always end thinking, "God there is just way too much here! How am I ever going to get this? I won't... I can' t understand it with my own wisdom and my own mind. Please open my eyes and ears." I think that so very often. It is overwhelming, all of this. Its not easy but if it were then it would not be the honor of kings to search it out, now would it? I am grateful to God that we have at least come to know Him this much, even if it is still, only a small part of who He is and what He is teaching us. I pray He reveals Himself more and more to us, there is nothing greater than to truly know who He is.
God bless you, Dave.
Alex
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Alex, I hope we are not going down the rabbit hole with this. Trying to pull together my thoughts, with Ray thoughts and the Scripture with this is proving quite difficult. I will not say impossible, because we know all things are possible with God.
I'm thinking that the soul and the spirit and then the heart and mind as well are so tightly interwoven that you cannot have one without the other, but they are all somewhat different in there functions. So trying to find out where the heart and mind originates... did I say it was in the spirit? I had to go back to the beginning and figure out what I said, because that not really my thinking. Here is a comment I made in my first post to you...
Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So what I'm getting at is that as spirit beings, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.
So now I see what you keep referring to, it's in that last part I was talking about spirit beings - angels... I said "this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well." I was talking about the spirit being or angel there. So there is where I miss lead you by not being clear... sorry about that. Whole other topic.
But continuing on with what you are saying, these words are so interchanged in the Scripture that it can be very hard to find the difference. I do look at the Greek and Hebrew words, and that does help, but it's still confusing. Ray mentioned that in an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7163.0 -------
Dear Reader: It is hardly possible to differentiate between heart and mind by using Strong's Dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew languages, as he over-laps every definition with each word. Mind has to do more with intellect, intelligence, rational reasoning, analysis, creativity, etc. The heart has more to do with emotions, feelings, compassion, love, lusts and desires. We do not analytically and rationally decide that a good thing to do would be to go down to the beach and lust after women in bikinis. Nor do we normally work our way through a difficult mathematical problem by figuring it out in our heart. A person with a very good MIND, may nonetheless, have a very evil HEART. Can you see a difference? I'm not saying that there is no overlap, but can you see a difference? Can you see the necessity for two words to describe two different forms of sentient behavior as opposed to being confined to only one word to describe these differences? It's too big a subject for an email to go into all the many Scriptures to differentiate where the King James may or may not have it backwards. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
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Anyway does that clear up any of the confusion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Alex, I hope we are not going down the rabbit hole with this. Trying to pull together my thoughts, with Ray thoughts and the Scripture with this is proving quite difficult. I will not say impossible, because we know all things are possible with God.
I'm thinking that the soul and the spirit and then the heart and mind as well are so tightly interwoven that you cannot have one without the other, but they are all somewhat different in there functions. So trying to find out where the heart and mind originates... did I say it was in the spirit? I had to go back to the beginning and figure out what I said, because that not really my thinking. Here is a comment I made in my first post to you...
Now that spirit that gives us life, for us it's a physical/carnal spirit that helps us survive in this world, it is not the Holy Spirit that is another Spirit that God gives.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
So what I'm getting at is that as spirit beings, just as we humans, also have a spirit of life in them, this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well. The Scripture do mention this about God.
So now I see what you keep referring to, it's in that last part I was talking about spirit beings - angels... I said "this spirit would seem to consist of their mind and spiritual heart as well." I was talking about the spirit being or angel there. So there is where I miss lead you by not being clear... sorry about that. Whole other topic.
But continuing on with what you are saying, these words are so interchanged in the Scripture that it can be very hard to find the difference. I do look at the Greek and Hebrew words, and that does help, but it's still confusing. Ray mentioned that in an email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7163.0 -------
Dear Reader: It is hardly possible to differentiate between heart and mind by using Strong's Dictionary of the Greek and Hebrew languages, as he over-laps every definition with each word. Mind has to do more with intellect, intelligence, rational reasoning, analysis, creativity, etc. The heart has more to do with emotions, feelings, compassion, love, lusts and desires. We do not analytically and rationally decide that a good thing to do would be to go down to the beach and lust after women in bikinis. Nor do we normally work our way through a difficult mathematical problem by figuring it out in our heart. A person with a very good MIND, may nonetheless, have a very evil HEART. Can you see a difference? I'm not saying that there is no overlap, but can you see a difference? Can you see the necessity for two words to describe two different forms of sentient behavior as opposed to being confined to only one word to describe these differences? It's too big a subject for an email to go into all the many Scriptures to differentiate where the King James may or may not have it backwards. Hope this helps your understanding a little better.
God be with you,
Ray
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Anyway does that clear up any of the confusion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Yes, I see that we were more or less on the same page but some words led me to believe that you were trying to say something else.
I also agree that this is very hard to nail down and ray makes a good explanation of why. It seems they are very tightly intertwined and trying to unwind it all to find where one begins and the other ends is much more difficult than it appears on the surface.
According to Genesis, body and spirit makes man a living soul. Man doesn't have a soul, he is a living soul. I suppose we should be content with understanding at least that bit of truth.
I could only speculate from that point forward so I suppose I will leave it to that.
So... did we determine where the heart and mind originate from then or are we awaiting a more certain answer from our God?
Mercy, peace and love to you dear sister.
Alex
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bound together, tightly wound, inextricably intertwined, thoroughly blended, a complete solution--salt water, mud. And without Him, nothing...
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Yeah Dave, that's the way I see it too. You don't have the one without the other. So I don't know if I'd say it originates from anything in particular, they together, maybe...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Gen 2:7 and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Ecc 9:5 for the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing,... If I know nothing then it is in God where everything goes and it is also in Him how it comes ... P S Dave I never said I was a spiritual man having a physical experience!😉😀 . I am reading and listening to LRays teachings! I hope you are not referring to me as being religious! 😃 I notice that we are all still religious/carnal in our own ways and God is working is us! I read and respect all the post here, I should say that everyone's post are awesome and I appreciate them all. Being a uneducated man can have its difficulties in understanding some of the post, but God works through it with me and that's why I am still here! God Bless you all! 😊
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No, Mike. I wasn't calling you out personally. ;D Of course we all have limited minds to digest all this and we all came from different 'traditions'. I just didn't want your post to be lost in the thread when there was an answer/confirmation to it.
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No, Mike. I wasn't calling you out personally. ;D Of course we all have limited minds to digest all this and we all came from different 'traditions'. I just didn't want your post to be lost in the thread when there was an answer/confirmation to it.
. Lol, told you Dave I wasn't that educated!! 😅 thank you Dave and everyone for there patience with me😀
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Good posts all around. Thank you Moises, Dave, Mike and Kat. I think we have exhausted our understanding at this point and I am content with what appears to be where I started ;)
The Lord is clearly not done with us yet! This body of Christ is still being worked on, but hey! I'm glad to be apart of it with you all. :)
God bless,
Alex
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Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word!
Alex,
I found a place where Ray actually stated that Jesus emptied himself of His divinity. This was stated back at the Mobile 06 bible conference. Here is his statement:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html
"He was God and He emptied Himself of all His power and glory and majesty and divinity. So He could be made and fashioned into a man, so He could die."
But also in the same bible study, Ray made this comment as well:
"Only God is to be worshipped, the leper came and worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2), the chief, worships Him (Mat. 9:18), and the woman came and worships Him (Matt 15:25). Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega … the Almighty." That’s Christ, God. “And the Word was God,” (John 1:1) Thomas said, when he felt the holes in Christ’s body, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Christ did not correct Him."
More yet to be learned.
René
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I heard Ray say that Jesus did not empty Himself entirely recently on an audio.
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Specifically I misspoke in the last thread and Rene pointed that out. Ray nor the scriptures never specifically state Christ emptied Himself of His "divinity" and neither should I. Bad choice of word!
Alex,
I found a place where Ray actually stated that Jesus emptied himself of His divinity. This was stated back at the Mobile 06 bible conference. Here is his statement:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html
"He was God and He emptied Himself of all His power and glory and majesty and divinity. So He could be made and fashioned into a man, so He could die."
But also in the same bible study, Ray made this comment as well:
"Only God is to be worshipped, the leper came and worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2), the chief, worships Him (Mat. 9:18), and the woman came and worships Him (Matt 15:25). Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega … the Almighty." That’s Christ, God. “And the Word was God,” (John 1:1) Thomas said, when he felt the holes in Christ’s body, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Christ did not correct Him."
More yet to be learned.
René
Thank you for finding that Rene. I think what Dennis said is important too.
God bless,
Alex
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Yes Ray has many articles and that gives us much to consider, but he would have been learning through the years as he studied, and the Scripture are still revealing things for sure.
Here is a comment Ray made at the "Is Jesus God" bible study in March of 2011.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html --------
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, BUT HE (what?)… that came down from heaven,
"He that came down He ascended up to heaven. He was not dead yet, this was BEFORE the resurrection! This was in His ministry. So here is a Scripture that says , He went to heaven before He died or His resurrection. He came down from heaven and He said the same one that came down, that’s the One that ascended up! Most people read over that, but it is there, it does say it."
"See I don’t think He emptied Himself of everything that was, all knowledge everything. I don’t think so. [Comment: Maybe He emptied Himself of something.] Yes He did, of course He did. He emptied Himself of some prior glory that He had."
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Here are a couple more Scripture that certainly show He still have some glory as a human.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 2:11 This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat