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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Nelson Boils on February 21, 2020, 03:25:02 AM
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Perhaps we could try answer some of them.
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What kinds of questions? Ones that concern everybody, or ones that seem to concern only bible-students?
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Perhaps we could try answer some of them.
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Hi my friend,
Not sure what type of questions you have in mind, but I'll try just two.
1. How can Jesus have been God during his earthly ministry if God cannot die?
2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
Are these questions similar to what you had in mind?
Indiana Bob :)
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What kinds of questions? Ones that concern everybody, or ones that seem to concern only bible-students?
Well ones related to our faith.Whether it be a tough scripture,why you believe what you believe or questions about Jesus,u know that kinda stuff.
Indiana has posed 2 already.
I actually have never really been challenged as to why I believe what I believe,I normally just keep quiet when I am around people,they do more of the talking and I just listen to them.
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Hi Rolihlala,
If we ask questions then we need to be able to give answers.
1 Pet 3:15 "But set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and always be ready to give an answer to anyone who asks about the hope you possess"
Indiana Bob, in answer to your questions, my input would be:
1. Christ emptied himself of the glory he had before he took on the likeness of man so that he could die for our sins.
Phil 2:7 "but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in human likeness"
Phil 2:6 "Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
2. They had to believe that God sent his son to be the Messiah.
1 Cor 1:24 "but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him."
A question that I have been asked is how can God allow a child to be harmed? How can you believe in a god like that!
Heidi
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Perhaps we could try answer some of them.
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Hi my friend,
Not sure what type of questions you have in mind, but I'll try just two.
1. How can Jesus have been God during his earthly ministry if God cannot die?
2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
Are these questions similar to what you had in mind?
Indiana Bob :)
2nd question is the one He was asked during His earthly ministry so there is an answer to that which Jesus told us.
Thanks Heidi for your input.Hopefully we can edify each other by having an answer to those who question us.
"How can God allow a child to be harmed?"
Tough one.Even if one answered "we are born to experience evil to humble us",it would still be difficult to wrap ones brain around it.
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It is a very tough one because we know that God created good and evil.
Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"
And that "an experience of evil has God given unto the sons of man to humble them by"
This is very hard to understand with human wisdom and reasoning, one cannot. I know that one day (in judgement) the person (s) who did the horrible crimes WILL BE humbled for what they have done.
My answer was that people always blame God for bad things and forget that the devil plays a role too. People sin willingly for the heart is evil above all. By the time the deed is done, such a person has already sinned because of lust of the flesh.
I believe that some things we (Gods chosen) will understand or try to understand now, but the them that are without will never get it.
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My oldest son is terribly angry to here God uses evil for our good, and refuses to be consoled by any scriptural explanation that is offered. It is God's will for him at this time and knowing God's will in our lives is always to prosper us, I'm content in his purpose no matter how difficult the experience may be. I know and believe because I've had first hand experience of the extroidinary benifits in my own life, but getting here was extremely hard. No matter how much my son has accomplished and is prospering from a worldly perspective, he's not at peace in the knowledge and purpose of our creator and as a result, his life is truly lacking any real meaning or satisfaction, as anyone's life without understanding certainly is
The process of being humbled is the most difficult but necessary first step in coming to know the will of God and it's absolute necessity in our lives.
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You asked "how can God allow a child to be harmed"
Two comments come to mind.
We all, even if we are adults...are God's "little"children so the pain is real in both instances.
Second, God gave the child parents and grand parents to care for the child, so even though God is ultimately responsible, so are the parents who unintentionally or ignorantly or carelessly allow the child to be harmed.
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Also for those who believe as we do, what would a world be like if God intervened in every case where we might harm ourselves?? We wouldn't be allowed to choose to do anything harmful such as over eating, smoking or taking drugs or running with a pair of scissors in our hand etc. etc.
People really don't think these questions through to the final conclusion. Who would want to be on a leash all the time to prevent any and all accidents?
Not me!
Perhaps we could try answer some of them.
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Hi my friend,
Not sure what type of questions you have in mind, but I'll try just two.
1. How can Jesus have been God during his earthly ministry if God cannot die?
2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
Are these questions similar to what you had in mind?
Indiana Bob :)
2nd question is the one He was asked during His earthly ministry so there is an answer to that which Jesus told us.
Thanks Heidi for your input.Hopefully we can edify each other by having an answer to those who question us.
"How can God allow a child to be harmed?"
Tough one.Even if one answered "we are born to experience evil to humble us",it would still be difficult to wrap ones brain around it.
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Thank you Bob, your comment is most helpful with this difficult subject.
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Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
This is a hard question. This verse seems to conflict with the sovereignty of God. In the story of Job (and elsewhere) God is portrayed as one who is framing the evil (cf. Jer. 18:11); but here it sounds like He is "blaming" His people for coming up with new evils all on their own; almost as if He didn't know it was coming. Obviously He did know, but why then did it happen? I remember Ray used this verse as one of many proofs that God does not punish with real fire in hell. Men burn each other with fire, but it didn't enter God's heart to do it. So how does this line up with His sovereignty?
This is a specific verse, but the more general question is: Why do things have to so bad? Couldn't we learn plenty of virtues just with the daily trials we have? Sickness, aging, traffic, annoying coworkers...those things can teach us patience, humility, and love, can't they? So why do kids have to be burned alive? Why must men be so cruel, inflicting unspeakable tortures on others?
We know our Lord suffered as much as any man in history--and as Ray pointed out, He chose that horrible death to show us that He loves us--but it still doesn't really answer the question. He could have made it so humanity (and He) didn't have to suffer that badly. I ask this on behalf of others who have suffered greatly; personally I have had an exceedingly easy and good life. It's easy for me to say "It will all turn out good in the end", but I suspect the victims of horrors didn't see it that way.
"Why suffering?" is a relatively easy question. (As C.S. Lewis and others have pointed out, it's actually an argument for God's existence.)
The hard question is "Why suffering to such a degree?"
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Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
This is a hard question. This verse seems to conflict with the sovereignty of God. In the story of Job (and elsewhere) God is portrayed as one who is framing the evil (cf. Jer. 18:11); but here it sounds like He is "blaming" His people for coming up with new evils all on their own; almost as if He didn't know it was coming. Obviously He did know, but why then did it happen? I remember Ray used this verse as one of many proofs that God does not punish with real fire in hell. Men burn each other with fire, but it didn't enter God's heart to do it. So how does this line up with His sovereignty?
This is a specific verse, but the more general question is: Why do things have to so bad? Couldn't we learn plenty of virtues just with the daily trials we have? Sickness, aging, traffic, annoying coworkers...those things can teach us patience, humility, and love, can't they? So why do kids have to be burned alive? Why must men be so cruel, inflicting unspeakable tortures on others?
We know our Lord suffered as much as any man in history--and as Ray pointed out, He chose that horrible death to show us that He loves us--but it still doesn't really answer the question. He could have made it so humanity (and He) didn't have to suffer that badly. I ask this on behalf of others who have suffered greatly; personally I have had an exceedingly easy and good life. It's easy for me to say "It will all turn out good in the end", but I suspect the victims of horrors didn't see it that way.
"Why suffering?" is a relatively easy question. (As C.S. Lewis and others have pointed out, it's actually an argument for God's existence.)
The hard question is "Why suffering to such a degree?"
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind[/color] (Strong's H3824 the heart; also used figuratively very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything...)
He commanded not. He spoke it not (so that it might be taken as a command). It did not come into His creative and purposeful mind, desire, feeling, etc.) from the beginning. Men did it, in opposition to His commandments, His words, and His very plans for us.
In other words, it wasn't that MAN doing this thing never entered His MIND/HEART. That is was a surprise and unexpected. It's that this THING never entered His Mind/Heart/Purpose/Plan. Everybody resists His will. Nobody resists His purpose.
Maybe that's why things must sometimes be so bad. The greater contrast with His ultimate wishes, desires, and plans for His creation. Paul also suffered, and he contrasted it with the "abundance of the revelations". I don't take that to mean "the boatloads of doctrinal insights". God is Love.
I can't say this glibly. I know very well that this "may not be enough" to explain the full depths of wickedness and general evil to someone today observing or enduring. But by faith I believe one day it will. That makes it easier to "endure", but I will admit, not so much easier to "observe", especially in ones to whom He has not given faith. .
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2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
He needed to believe on the name of the Son of God. How do you do that?
Then, he needed to die and be raised from the dead. He's only "half-way" there, at best.
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2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
He needed to believe on the name of the Son of God. How do you do that?
Then, he needed to die and be raised from the dead. He's only "half-way" there, at best.
Matthew 19:16 "And behold, someone approached and said to him, “Good Teacher, what good should I do, so that I may have eternal life?”
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Indeed Jesse, why such a horrible degree of suffering to learn from?
Considering what Bob said about the responsibility parents have for their children's suffering because of the choices they make. I'm reminded of a recent tragedy involving a six year old little girl, who went missing from her own front yard. She was out playing alone unsupervised for quiet some time before her mother missed her. Unfortunately the story didn't have a happy ending.
Was God using this terrible evil to humble this little one, I think not. What purpose did something so horrible serve? Some would say God needed another angel in heaven, which only causes others to blame God for allowing such evil to touch this innocent one, and cause her family such a torturous pain. Not knowing God and his plan for mankind is the problem.
By comparison Jesse, you have suffered minamally because of your parents choices, and I suffered more because of my parents choices. Did I need to suffer so harshly to learn humility though? Until you asked this question I believed it was neccessary to humble me. Now I'm not so sure. Looking back, I was rather meek and humble prior to many of those harsh experiences. Afterwards I felt distant from God and questioned how he could call himself a God of love. I'm not sure but I think it has something to do with learning to trust and rely on him in spite of my harsh experiences, caused by the choises of others.
People have always suffered at the hands/actions of others, the bible is full of such accounts, and so is our world. It just proves what God himself says about man.
Genesis 6
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth,and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
And again after the flood
Genesis 8
21 The Lord smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood.
And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.
Destroying man does not get rid of his inclination for evil, that's why God has a full proof plan that will.
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2. What did an Israelite living during Jesus' ministry on earth need to believe in order to be saved?
He needed to believe on the name of the Son of God. How do you do that?
Then, he needed to die and be raised from the dead. He's only "half-way" there, at best.
Matthew 19:16 "And behold, someone approached and said to him, “Good Teacher, what good should I do, so that I may have eternal life?”
To believe in his name is to have the neccessary faith. If we consider the Greek word pistis, "faith ", is a noun, but there is no verb form in the English language. We can't properly say that we faith Jesus, so to read it properly we must change the wording to say we believe in Jesus. Believing without faith is something we're all familiar with, but it's not possible to give up all your wealth as Jesus told the rich man he would need to do, without having the kind of faith it would require. In this regard I don't think the words believe and faith are interchangeable.
For John, faith is the basis of sonship, whereas in Paul’s writings, faith is the requisite for justification (Romans 4:2, 5). For James, faith was expressed and therefore evidenced by one’s works (James 2:18). All of these writers are in harmony, but each focuses on a different aspect of faith.
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1. What is god/ What do you mean when you say ‘god’?
2. What do you mean when you say ‘believe’?
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Wanda, I would argue that we mustn't, for the same of clarity, say we "believe in Jesus.". Nor is that the "necessary faith". We are saved by Grace...through faith. He is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe. To me that matches up with the Gospel of John. To believe in Jesus is one thing. But the power/authority to become the Sons of God goes to those that believe on His name.
And they shall call his name "Jesus", for He shall save His people from their sins. His very name means "God savior/saves". He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the world. Believing this is central to believing ON HIS NAME. Those that believe on His name are especially saved.
He shall be called Immanuel, meaning "God with us".
People these days don't put as much thought into the meanings of names. But it's a prominent part of scripture, OT and New, that certain names are defined. His was. That's at least one major way one can believe on a name. It is not just an arrangement of letters and syllables.
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From The Real Origin Of Sin, LOF PT. 11
We have got to get away from the God allows certain things mentality and syndrome.
God creates,God destroys,God heals, God kills,God causes, God brings about,God saves.
God does not allow things that He has not foreordained to be’
Judgement is not reserved exclusively for the wicked nor is it a one sided sentence of doom.
God has a plan, A PROCEDURE and a purpose for this creation.
Rom.11:36
For of Him and THROUGH Him and to Him are all things to whom be glory forever.
Concordant.....Seeing that OUT of Him and THROUGH Him and for Him is ALL.
Does this also include evil? ISA. 45:7
There are many things in life that are very hard to accept and deal with in our weakened spiritual state.
Satan is functioning perfectly as God’s adversary.Satan the devil has seed, he is a father, a father
has children and followers of like nature.
It is the wasters role to destroy the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved.( 1 Co.5:45)
It is Satan who was created from his very beginning to be the waster to destroy men’s flesh
so that they learn not to blaspheme (1Tim 1:20) Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn’t
finished yet.
Satan is evil, God created evil, God created Satan.
He that commits sin is of the devil.
When we understand these things , we will understand the LOF and second death and a thousand other things that happen in our lives today as in the lives of all humanity since Mother Eve.
Hello everyone. My focus here is on the PROCEDURE God uses to destroy the beastly carnal mind
because
Rom.8:7... because the carnal ( natural) mind is enmity ( deep seated hatred) against God, for it is not
subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
God follows His own spiritual laws. Free will sounds like a marvellous and magical thing......it is
however the god of stupidity. An idol of the heart which will be burned out of every son whom
God scourges. And ALL the inhabitants of the earth( we know all means all) are reputed as nothing.
Nothing is pretty small.
I have been studying about the process of how God brings humanity from wickedness to His image.
An experience of evil involves much pain, sorrow and suffering from many sources.I’m studying GRACE as a verb. So here is my question.
Is Grace , Gehenna Fire?
Quote from Ray from Study of Tophet of Old,,,,,,,” Gehenna Fire is a vital ingredient in the PROCESS
of sanctifying us WHOLLY( 1 Thes 5:23)
Heidi. You said in your second post re. evil” this is a very hard thing to understand with mans
human reasoning, one cannot”.
Human reasoning, I believe this human reasoning to be the fabled free will that has to be burnt out
of every human. I marvel at Rays teaching of Guilty of All. This was the teaching that made me realize
the depth of Satan in humanity and our weakened hearts, and that put in the right circumstances, ie. wars throughout history.we are capable of heinous evil and ONLY by the grace of God do we do any good at all.
I have learned what it means to love my enemies through that teaching. Agape love for those who
in Gods plan were made to be vessels of dishonour. Our whole lives are evening and morning and
there is coming a time when it will just be morning always with the brightness of God in full strength.
Until then, Jesus-Jehovah teaches us long suffering and pure love . Love is the key. Amen💕
All Glory to God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.
In Christ , Pamela
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Wanda, I would argue that we mustn't, for the same of clarity, say we "believe in Jesus.". Nor is that the "necessary faith". We are saved by Grace...through faith. He is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe. To me that matches up with the Gospel of John. To believe in Jesus is one thing. But the power/authority to become the Sons of God goes to those that believe on His name.
And they shall call his name "Jesus", for He shall save His people from their sins. His very name means "God savior/saves". He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the world. Believing this is central to believing ON HIS NAME. Those that believe on His name are especially saved.
He shall be called Immanuel, meaning "God with us".
People these days don't put as much thought into the meanings of names. But it's a prominent part of scripture, OT and New, that certain names are defined. His was. That's at least one major way one can believe on a name. It is not just an arrangement of letters and syllables.
Thanks Dave,
Yes, I do understand we're saved by grace through faith, which is only possible through God and not by anything we do. I also believe Jesus is the savior of All men. My thinking was of the sons of God who believe on his name. I suppose my question would be, would not God given faith be necessary as one of the sons of God, to believe on his name?
I also understand the importance and great power of that name in God's plan for the salvation of all.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Acts 4:12
There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”
John 5:43 I have come to you in My Father’s name…
John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name…
John 17:11 Holy Father, you have given me your name…
John 17:26 And I have declared to them Your name…
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Hi Wanda
Ray taught in Getting Saved, the hardest thing you will ever do ,that,
Yes, Faith is a noun but belief / believe is a verb and they mean the same
thing.
Saved by grace through faith. Our faith, no,,, the faith OF Jesus.
Ray said anyone can say they believe IN Jesus but the sons of God
will have the faith OF Jesus. Big difference in those little words, “in and of”
😁💕
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Hi Wanda,
If I may add just a little.
It is the faith OF Jesus who obeyed even unto death and whose righteousness we depend upon that saves us.
The faith that God gives each one of us is to trust, believe and have faith in what Jesus did.
When Jesus died on the stake he said, "it is finished".
So the salvation of all people has already been provided for-for all time.
The faith that humans may have is given by God to each in their own time, some now and most later.
Please comment, Indiana Bob
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Wanda, I would argue that we mustn't, for the same of clarity, say we "believe in Jesus.". Nor is that the "necessary faith". We are saved by Grace...through faith. He is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe. To me that matches up with the Gospel of John. To believe in Jesus is one thing. But the power/authority to become the Sons of God goes to those that believe on His name.
And they shall call his name "Jesus", for He shall save His people from their sins. His very name means "God savior/saves". He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the sins of the world. Believing this is central to believing ON HIS NAME. Those that believe on His name are especially saved.
He shall be called Immanuel, meaning "God with us".
People these days don't put as much thought into the meanings of names. But it's a prominent part of scripture, OT and New, that certain names are defined. His was. That's at least one major way one can believe on a name. It is not just an arrangement of letters and syllables.
Thanks Dave,
Yes, I do understand we're saved by grace through faith, which is only possible through God and not by anything we do. I also believe Jesus is the savior of All men. My thinking was of the sons of God who believe on his name. I suppose my question would be, would not God given faith be necessary as one of the sons of God, to believe on his name?
I also understand the importance and great power of that name in God's plan for the salvation of all.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Acts 4:12
There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”
John 5:43 I have come to you in My Father’s name…
John 17:6 “I have manifested Your name…
John 17:11 Holy Father, you have given me your name…
John 17:26 And I have declared to them Your name…
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Thanks Pam and Bob.
In my struggle to explain this, I confused things by putting the emphasis on faith. I agree with Pamela, belief does mean faith. And yes Bob, each is saved in his own order, as is promised by the sacrifice of our Lord. He is the savior of ALL men.
Those who are continually believing on his name. Trusting, obeying and doing his will are those that will be begotten, not of blood, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God. These will be saved first. Otherwise, I don't see how we can understand that believing in his name is all it takes to be saved. If that were true getting saved would be easy peasy and not as hard as Ray taught it was.
JOHN 1
12 But to all who did receive him who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
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The first question , as you have said , is why a loving God allows unspeakable evil. I can only imagine that the Light of God is so brilliant that it will wash away so completely any darkness we have ever experienced .And who knows that God , before the beginning of Time, even for a nanosecond saw in His wisdom that evil was possible and turned away from it to be Love . And to be like God we had to see it too.
And the second question we hear all the time is if God is going to save us all, then what is the use of trying to live a “ good” life? What is the point ? This one perplexes me greatly . Did they only love God because of the threat of Hell ? Did they really not want to know Him or be like Him or serve Him ? The response to this question reveals the heart .
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"The first question , as you have said , is why a loving God allows unspeakable evil."
Ecc 1:13 CLV
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:
it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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And who knows that God , before the beginning of Time, even for a nanosecond saw in His wisdom that evil was possible and turned away from it to be Love . And to be like God we had to see it too.
I love this comment❤
And the second question we hear all the time is if God is going to save us all, then what is the use of trying to live a “ good” life? What is the point ? This one perplexes me greatly . Did they only love God because of the threat of Hell ? Did they really not want to know Him or be like Him or serve Him ? The response to this question reveals the heart
When I first started going door to door as a Jehovah's Witnesse, I was filled with so much excitement to tell people there was no such place as a burning hellfire of endless torture. That excitement was very short lived though, because what should have been received as the best news you could ever hear, as a Christion who believed in such a place, only angered them.
I had a long time to process this kind of reaction, and realized believing in such a sick and horrible doctrin hardens peoples hearts. Believing in the free will doctrin, as they do, makes them feel superior because they chose salvation, and those going to hell made their choice too.
There are some, who do genuinely exhibit Godly love and just accept this is neccessary in his plan for mankind, but want to try and save people from making the wrong choice.
The perplexing thing to me, as one who grew up with the hellfire doctrin, and could never connect this God of love to such an evil and unloving act of punishment, is how they justify or explain away such an evil act by a loving God, when they vehemently deny God even created or uses evil. They defend him of having any connection to it, but then accuse him of committing one of the most evil acts anyone can even imagine.
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What meat that I am feasting on here.. thank you everyone!
My response to "Why God allows innocent children to suffer is?":
HE has given ADULTS a free choice (not free will), and when adults make irresponsible, wrong, & selfish choices, then they, being responsible for the child's safety, they are the guilty one's for not protecting that child/those children better. The blood is on the hands of the adult whom was given charge over the child, it is that adult whom must answer to God... (ex: when a leader and members of a militia are more interested in using their federal monies that were given to them to feed their children, then they turn around and use that money on buying more weapons for war, while the children starve to death, will be held accountable for those children's deaths);(or when a woman murders the baby inside of her womb/abortion...she must be held accountable.) Had God not given these adults 'free choice', then the adults could try to turn their bad choices against God ,by saying that they were 'made to chose' to do what they did to the innocent children, then they would never repent … hopefully, this will make anyone repent and change their lives for the better. Plus, if we did not know how terrible evil is, then we would not know how good God is... :o
Also,