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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: rdogs on September 22, 2009, 08:01:42 PM
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Does God cause all things to happen, even the bad, the tragic, and the horrific? Does nothing happen, that God didn't cause? I know that God is never surprised, but did he cause it?
Obviously, I need clarification.
Thanks,
Gary
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Yes.
God ultimately causes everything to happen.That doesn't mean that He 'directly' does everything, but He is the cause of everything, because He is the Creator, Author and Originator of everything that exists--including things like darkness, evil, Satan, flowers, light, Jesus...
For an in-depth study on this topic and other related ones, as well as a ton of Scripture, read Ray's Lake of Fire Articles. The answers to your questions are in there...
http://bibletruths.com
Daywalker 8)
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Does God cause all things to happen, even the bad, the tragic, and the horrific? Does nothing happen, that God didn't cause? I know that God is never surprised, but did he cause it?
Obviously, I need clarification.
Thanks,
Gary
Hello Gary.
Email to Ray.Hope it helps.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5146.msg40669.html#msg40669
Dear Dean: Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included. However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind." This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE C-O-U-N-S-E-L OF H-I-S O-W-N W-I-L-L" (Eph. 1:11).
God be with you,
Ray
Peace...Mark
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Hi Gary,
Here are a few emails that should help your understanding on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3570.0.html ------------
There are many things that God has created that are not a part of His "heart." Evil is not a part of God's heart. The death of the wicked is nothing something God cherishes in His heart. Sin is not something that God endorses, yet He created all the circumstances for its use.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 ---
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:18:25.
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer --------------------------------
Blame denotes being WRONG or doing BAD or SINNING. God NEVER sins! A sin is a MISTAKE, a MISSING OF THE MARK, a FALLING SHORT of the ideal, whatsoever is not OF FAITH, and LAWLESSNESS.
God is not to BLAME for any of these. God is, however, responsible for EVIL and SINNERS, and everything else in this universe, seeing that it was He Who created it.
It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that God has nothing to do with EVIL. I heard Billy Graham teach the whole world from the national cathedral after 9/11 that, "God is not the author of evil." But of course, Billy Graham doesn't use the Scriptures for his authority, but rather the unscriptural traditions of men:
Isa. 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL; I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS."
God most certainly IS the creator of EVIL!
Contrary to the pagan and unscriptural traditions and heresies of Christendom, God IS responsible for ALL, because "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.
You can't quote a Scripture that states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and therefore conclude that God is opposed to anyone ever dying. God Himself makes WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Have you never read ALL of the Bible:
"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).
"...an experience of EVIL hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Translation).
"Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).
"...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).
"...Hear, O earth: behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).
"And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).
"He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).
"...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).
"O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).
"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..." (Josh. 23:15).
"...shall there be EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).
These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.
God "SCOURGES every son that He receives." If you know anything about "scourging" you know it is quite severe. Job's afflictions were QUITE severe, our Apostle Paul's afflictions were QUITE severe.
God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.
http://bible-truths.com/email3.htm#evil -----------------------------
There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.
All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.
Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.
Evil is necessary for the production or development of good. You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.
All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness. One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.
All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3002.0.html ---------
God is not only Almighty, but He is also all wise, and all knowing, and LOVE.
Love demands a recipient to partake of that love. There is no other God in
the Universe or beyond the Universe. God designed the family and children as
a parable for us to understanding what His plan of creation is all about. God
WANTS CHILDREN. But God wants children LIKE HIMSELF, hence the
purpose for the creation of humanity.
Knowing "good and evil" is an essential part of "being like God," hence He
creates good and evil for our experience. Failure, futility, sin and death is a
part of the "knowledge of evil." It is necessary that we fail in order that we
may succeed. God did not complete his plan of "making man in His Own Image"
back in Genesis. It was merely the first stage. What we call "life" is God's
plan for "making manking into His Own Spiritual Image."
May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.
Sincerely,
Ray
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“Kats” post referencing Rays answers to emails on this subject is excellent. I want to add my thoughts as follows.
Does God cause everything to happen is the one subject of the Bible that I have meditated on more by far than any other subject. It has perplexed me and I think I have come to the following conclusion that is “key” in understanding the matter in my own mind. I could be wrong and if so I welcome correction.
There are two ways to state the question. They are:
1) God causes everything. If this were true then God would cause someone to sin such as raping and murdering a 8-year old girl. But we know this is not true because as Ray has taught us God does not cause anyone to commit sin. (James 1:13-15). God does directly cause some things to happen. But He does not cause man to sin.
2) God is the “cause” of everything that happens. This statement makes sense to me because it is God that has created human nature and universal laws. Combine the two and God knows the outcome of every situation before it happens. God does not “cause” a man to sin but God is responsible for everything that happens because He created the laws and human nature that leads to sin. However we are accountable for our sins because I believe that anyone that sins knows what he is doing is wrong.
I believe that God does not cause everything as stated in 1) above. But He is the cause of everything that happens and I believe the key is in the way it is stated and in this case it makes sense to me to say “God is the cause of everything that happens” rather than “God causes everything to happen.” There is a difference.
I hope I’m making sense.
George
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“Kats” post referencing Rays answers to emails on this subject is excellent. I want to add my thoughts as follows.
Does God cause everything to happen is the one subject of the Bible that I have meditated on more by far than any other subject. It has perplexed me and I think I have come to the following conclusion that is “key” in understanding the matter in my own mind. I could be wrong and if so I welcome correction.
There are two ways to state the question. They are:
1) God causes everything. If this were true then God would cause someone to sin such as raping and murdering a 8-year old girl. But we know this is not true because as Ray has taught us God does not cause anyone to commit sin. (James 1:13-15). God does directly cause some things to happen. But He does not cause man to sin.
2) God is the “cause” of everything that happens. This statement makes sense to me because it is God that has created human nature and universal laws. Combine the two and God knows the outcome of every situation before it happens. God does not “cause” a man to sin but God is responsible for everything that happens because He created the laws and human nature that leads to sin. However we are accountable for our sins because I believe that anyone that sins knows what he is doing is wrong.
I believe that God does not cause everything as stated in 1) above. But He is the cause of everything that happens and I believe the key is in the way it is stated and in this case it makes sense to me to say “God is the cause of everything that happens” rather than “God causes everything to happen.” There is a difference.
I hope I’m making sense.
George
I think I understand what you are saying George...the only thing is, God does 'cause' men to sin. But He does not 'force' them to.
Rom 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Here, Paul tells us that God made humanity subject to vanity (futility...in other words sin). The Lord purposely created mankind too weak to resist sin. This is a cause which has a direct effect in the lives of every human being.
Hope this helps,
Marques
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I think I understand what you are saying George...the only thing is, God does 'cause' men to sin. But He does not 'force' them to.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Peace...Mark
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I think I understand what you are saying George...the only thing is, God does 'cause' men to sin. But He does not 'force' them to.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Peace...Mark
Thank you Mark, these scriptures testify of the effect of mankind being subjected to sin...but the initial cause of mankind being subjected to sin is of God. These scriptures from James do not contradict the ones from Paul in Romans 8.
Humanity is drawn away by it's own lust, but Who created them that way? Cause & Effect...there is no effect without a cause. The original question of this thread was 'Does God cause all?' The answer is Yes, as All is of God...God is the initial Cause in every Effect in the Universe.
Marques
P.S. I was going to post an excerpt from Lake of Fire series 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html), but that wouldn't do it justice...the whole paper should be read in full for those who seek more understanding on 'how' God causes all Evil.
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Thank you Mark, these scriptures testify of the effect of mankind being subjected to sin...but the initial cause of mankind being subjected to sin is of God. These scriptures from James do not contradict the ones from Paul in Romans 8.
Humanity is drawn away by it's own lust, but Who created them that way? Cause & Effect...there is no effect without a cause. The original question of this thread was 'Does God cause all?' The answer is Yes, as All is of God...God is the initial Cause in every Effect in the Universe.
Marques
P.S. I was going to post an excerpt from Lake of Fire series 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html), but that wouldn't do it justice...the whole paper should be read in full for those who seek more understanding on 'how' God causes all Evil.
Yes Marques ,God does cause all things.We are in total agreement.Scripture does not contradict.
My point was this verse---Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Sorry if my post caused any confusion.
Peace...Mark
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Thanks to all for responding to my question. It looks as if I have lot more reading to do, but thanks be to God, I have time to do it.
Gary
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Hi Gary,
In the following verses God not only tells us that He is going to send His evil judgements, but also tells us why:
Eze 14:21 For so says the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send My four evil judgments on Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the destroying beast, and the plague, to cut off man and beast from it.
Eze 14:22 Yet, behold, there shall be left a remnant in it that shall be brought out, sons and daughters. Behold, they shall come out to you, and you shall see their way and their doings. And you shall be comforted concerning the evil that I brought on Jerusalem, for all that I have brought on it.
Eze 14:23 And they shall comfort you when you see their way and their doings. And you shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, says the Lord Jehovah.
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very good find geoff, very good find.
claudia
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Eze 14:21 For so says the Lord Jehovah: How much more when I send My four evil judgments on Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the destroying beast, and the plague, to cut off man and beast from it.
Ray always says we have to read the (words) in the scriptures. In this scripture that Geoff posted it uses the word evil. The Lord says When (I) send (MY) four (EVIL) judgments. God's says MY EVIL judgements which sounds to me that God is claiming these 4 evil judgement as HIS own, coming out of Himself. Would it not be a total contradiction of Gods character? Scripture tells us God is love. There;s no evil IN God. HE (uses) evil for His divine purposes. He uses Satan for evil purposes but God never claims to posses evil in Himself. Am I missing something? Am I reading too much into this? Is this a bad interpation? My Bible uses the word (SEVERE) judgments. I can see severe judgements. not evil. Or am I just over analyzing this??
Darren
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Darren...just talking 'language' here, not Theology. The term "Evil" in English does not always have a moral connotation. This verse is a good example of that. "...the sword, and the famine, and the destroying beast, and the plague..." are 'evils' in that sense. You could name more. Death, headaches, poverty, etc. These things are not necessarily morally 'evil' like murder or other gross sins. So, yes, I think you may be putting too fine a point on it. Remember where sin comes from.
I hope that helps a bit.
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Darren, just curious bout sumin: where in the Scripture does it state that there is 'no evil IN God'?
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I;m no good at quoting scripture If I quote a scripture you can bet it took me alot of time to find it. Still I have never heard any scripture saying God has evil in Him. This would be a contradiction of the scriptures that tell us that God IS love. Yes God created evil and He uses evil for divine purposes but He has no evil IN Him.
Yea Dave. like I said I probable just didn't understand. Since I have been listening to Ray's audios these last yrs he always says we have to really read and listen to the words in the scriptures, they tell us more than what we think. I have been really trying to understand the words that make up the scriptures. In eze 14:21 The Lord uses the word MY evil judgements. God;s judgements are not evil but fair and just. like I said I don't know much about quoting scripture. It take me forever look these things up. You pointed out that the sword, famine, destroying beast and the plague are (evils) in a sense. Yes I agree.
Darren
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Here I go again round and round.
Am I ever going to understand this topic? How long did it take for most of you to get this?
God made us carnal then says don't be carnal, and we are accountable when we are carnal.
How are we accountable for the lust in our heart and mind? How can we do it of our own when we were created that way. What does accountable mean? If one is held accountable for his or her actions, then doesn't that make us responsible for something from a choice we make that God intended for us to make in the first place.
This is a very complex subject for me. I'm sure I'm not the only one. A lot of people say they have it, but do they really? I am not saying.. that I don't believe it; I'm saying I don't understand it, and in no way could explain it to someone interested without getting them confused.
If I build a beautiful house and put a rotten board in the main support structure knowing it will collapse eventually, then I am responsible and accountable. Not only that, but now I have to go back and build it back up and make it better.
I have always been an observer of nature; animals, birds, plants, etc.
Humming birds are very interesting. There is always one that is very greedy. I have feeders in different areas in my yard, and this one guards all of them trying to keep the others away. I used a water hose to run it off, but another took it's place. Suddenly like over night they all started feeding at the same time with no more greediness; well they still bickered with each other, but without one being dominant. I finally realized that they were about to migrate. They were eating like little hogs.
I could see us in them; the natural thing I mean. They were created to do what they do, and they can't help it. Yes! I know we are humans and have choice, but we, just like the humming bird and all creation are not responsible for what we do.
I want to see what those that see it and understand it do. Maybe if I could understand how we on our own get lust in our heart and mind or thoughts that we know are wrong. I have thoughts that I don't know where they came from nor do I want them, but they just keep coming back. If I act on a thought that I can't get rid of that I don't know where it came from or how it got there, I feel like someone built me with a rotten board destined to fall but I am accountable? I don't get it the way I want to have it.
Usually the one responsible is the one held accountable. This is what confuses me the most.
Peace
Roy
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1Sa 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
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Hello Roy,
Try not to become frustrated with spiritual truths that you have trouble understanding. Instead give God all glory & thanksgiving for the ones you DO UNDERSTAND. A good servant that is faithful with a little brings a reward similar as the servant faithful in much (Luke 19:12-19).
Here are a few helpful email replies from Ray:
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm):
Dear Chris:
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm):
Dear Vince:
Thank you for your email and question.
There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.
1.
People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins. They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy. The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF. God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering. Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.
2.
We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.
Sincerely,
Ray
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Here I go again round and round.
Am I ever going to understand this topic? How long did it take for most of you to get this?
God made us carnal then says don't be carnal, and we are accountable when we are carnal.
How are we accountable for the lust in our heart and mind? How can we do it of our own when we were created that way. What does accountable mean? If one is held accountable for his or her actions, then doesn't that make us responsible for something from a choice we make that God intended for us to make in the first place.
This is a very complex subject for me. I'm sure I'm not the only one. A lot of people say they have it, but do they really? I am not saying.. that I don't believe it; I'm saying I don't understand it, and in no way could explain it to someone interested without getting them confused.
If I build a beautiful house and put a rotten board in the main support structure knowing it will collapse eventually, then I am responsible and accountable. Not only that, but now I have to go back and build it back up and make it better.
I have always been an observer of nature; animals, birds, plants, etc.
Humming birds are very interesting. There is always one that is very greedy. I have feeders in different areas in my yard, and this one guards all of them trying to keep the others away. I used a water hose to run it off, but another took it's place. Suddenly like over night they all started feeding at the same time with no more greediness; well they still bickered with each other, but without one being dominant. I finally realized that they were about to migrate. They were eating like little hogs.
I could see us in them; the natural thing I mean. They were created to do what they do, and they can't help it. Yes! I know we are humans and have choice, but we, just like the humming bird and all creation are not responsible for what we do.
I want to see what those that see it and understand it do. Maybe if I could understand how we on our own get lust in our heart and mind or thoughts that we know are wrong. I have thoughts that I don't know where they came from nor do I want them, but they just keep coming back. If I act on a thought that I can't get rid of that I don't know where it came from or how it got there, I feel like someone built me with a rotten board destined to fall but I am accountable? I don't get it the way I want to have it.
Usually the one responsible is the one held accountable. This is what confuses me the most.
Peace
Roy
Hello Roy.
CLV
Revelation 4:11 Worthy art Thou, O Lord, our Lord and God, To get glory and honor and power; For Thou dost create all, And because of Thy will they were, and are created."
CLV
Colossians 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.
Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with. All is of and for our Father and that means whatever short comings that we as human beings have to deal with on a physical or spiritual level must be in accordance with the will of the Father.
There are many things in my own mind that I have to deal with on a daily basis,[as we all do],but honestly speaking, whatever the Father deems necessary for His end purpose is fine and dandy by me. Whether I fully understand it or not.
Hope this helps some. :)
Peace...Mark
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Hi Roy,
I do understand how difficult this is, I think I just have an excepting nature is why I might get it more easily. But let me take a stab at this for you.
As you know God is the creator and sustains all there is and this automatically makes Him responsible for whatever happens. So He has a plan and in this plan He determined that human beings that He created required an experience in evil as a backdrop. Now that was so that when He would eventually show us righteousness we would have this backdrop of evil to compare it to and therefore understand it's goodness better. But what we do is indeed caused by our weak carnal nature and His creating us this way was not a sin in and of itself. But He does take responsibility for creating us this way and will rectify this completely. But it is our own weak nature created within us that desires for and is actually carrying out our own lusts... I guess that would be the rotten board. But the rotten board is not evil in and of itself, it did not start out as a rotten board, it's the nature of things that it became that way. Just like a piece of wood cannot remain perfect, all physical things must come to an end, so it will rot away. Because God made it so that all physical things will not last, is not evil. But He does take responsiblity for that.
Now carry this same analogy to human beings, we were created to be too weak to resist temptations to sin, that the nature of the way we were created. But God does not do the tempting, because it's built in, it's automatic.
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
Just like a piece of wood rots, it's our nature to sin, "it's OUR desires." It was not evil for God to create us this way and He is responsible for that. But we are accountable for our own words and deeds, He did create within us the weak natural for us to sin, but He does not do the sinning Himself, WE do, therefore we're accountable.
And also there is no need for God to tempt mankind, because He has created beings (Satan and the demons) just for that purpose, to cause temptations in the world for this evil experience we must have. It was not evil for God to create beings eager to tempt mankind to sin either, it was a necessary part of His plan.
1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
All of this being as it is we know there is a good outcome for all of humanity, the few now, but the rest later.
1Peter 5:9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
v. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
v. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
1John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
I hope this was of some help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
This is one of the most clear and simple ways I have seen yet to explain it. If we were responsible then we would have to pay the penalty for our own sin. God doesn't hold us responsible and God himself through his son paid the penalty for our sin. Yet as the Juvenile we are still accountable. The Juvenile might have to be incarcerated for a defined period of time to hopefully learn to do right and the Juvenile is suffering the fruits of the wrong that he did but it's not punitive punishment to the Juvenile as much as it is discipline in order to correct his behavior.
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Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
This is one of the most clear and simple ways I have seen yet to explain it. If we were responsible then we would have to pay the penalty for our own sin. God doesn't hold us responsible and God himself through his son paid the penalty for our sin. Yet as the Juvenile we are still accountable. The Juvenile might have to be incarcerated for a defined period of time to hopefully learn to do right and the Juvenile is suffering the fruits of the wrong that he did but it's not punitive punishment to the Juvenile as much as it is discipline in order to correct his behavior.
Every answer i have read gives a different but still partially correct explanation, ALL Is Of GOD. What a Day it will be when all the murk is cleared away and we can see and hear clearly.
GLORY TO GOD THE FATHER And Our Lord Jesus Christ.
george. :)
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excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.
and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more this beast within us; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil until he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.
the battle of this beast within IS the race we must continue to run, but; the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.
claudia
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excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.
and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil til he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we see must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.
the battle of this beast within is the race we must continue to run, but the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.
claudia
A lot like I see it. Guess I have a weird outlook but I think of our lives as "school" and lessons given us, difficult tests and blessings. I know I'm probably making a fool of myself (hey, I'm old and yet still learning) but here goes: We are tried and tested and blessed beyond measure to be here on this forum. We have hurts that seem to never heal and lessons that seem beyond our abilities and, then, suddenly the clouds part and the sun (Son) peaks through. It's not over till it's over. Our trials are personal and different but it all comes down to LOVE; the greatest commandment. I can't seem to get it right. I grow prideful from time to time and my Father throws another foul ball at me and I fumble it. I find myself angry and unable to love. If I wish to walk the path of Christ, I must learn to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." How amazing is that?!!! I just can't seem to pull it off when things get rough. Sometimes I'm even angry at God, may He please forgive me. Why do you keep throwing these foul balls at me? Well, He is the boss and He knows what I need to learn.
One of the blessings of growing old is having time to see the value in unanswered prayers (if this sounds like an old Garth Brooks song, it is). Our Father, in His wisdom, knew along what was best for us. I can actually remember things I prayed for 30 years ago and thank God for turning a deaf ear to my prayers. His wisdom was awesome and my desires then so meaningless. I'm sure I don't have another 30 years to wait to learn who the Boss is, but I've learned to trust Him. Why must I go through the pain of life in this body of flesh and my repeated failures; falling short of who I want to be? I have children I adore and their pain, when life slams them, rips me apart. My own hurts rip me apart but I'm learning to trust. We will all return one day to our Father who first loved us and we will understand that His Will Be Done and why. Life, right now, boils down to love and trust. Enough rambling from an old lady.
Blessing to all and thanks for enduring my meaningless thoughts.
Pogo
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I'm old and yet still learning, too Pogo.
I identified with everything you said and it was meaningful.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
I have to remind myself of the truth of scripture like this, every day.
Geoff
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excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.
and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil til he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we see must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.
the battle of this beast within is the race we must continue to run, but the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.
claudia
A lot like I see it. Guess I have a weird outlook but I think of our lives as "school" and lessons given us, difficult tests and blessings. I know I'm probably making a fool of myself (hey, I'm old and yet still learning) but here goes: We are tried and tested and blessed beyond measure to be here on this forum. We have hurts that seem to never heal and lessons that seem beyond our abilities and, then, suddenly the clouds part and the sun (Son) peaks through. It's not over till it's over. Our trials are personal and different but it all comes down to LOVE; the greatest commandment. I can't seem to get it right. I grow prideful from time to time and my Father throws another foul ball at me and I fumble it. I find myself angry and unable to love. If I wish to walk the path of Christ, I must learn to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." How amazing is that?!!! I just can't seem to pull it off when things get rough. Sometimes I'm even angry at God, may He please forgive me. Why do you keep throwing these foul balls at me? Well, He is the boss and He knows what I need to learn.
One of the blessings of growing old is having time to see the value in unanswered prayers (if this sounds like an old Garth Brooks song, it is). Our Father, in His wisdom, knew along what was best for us. I can actually remember things I prayed for 30 years ago and thank God for turning a deaf ear to my prayers. His wisdom was awesome and my desires then so meaningless. I'm sure I don't have another 30 years to wait to learn who the Boss is, but I've learned to trust Him. Why must I go through the pain of life in this body of flesh and my repeated failures; falling short of who I want to be? I have children I adore and their pain, when life slams them, rips me apart. My own hurts rip me apart but I'm learning to trust. We will all return one day to our Father who first loved us and we will understand that His Will Be Done and why. Life, right now, boils down to love and trust. Enough rambling from an old lady.
Blessing to all and thanks for enduring my meaningless thoughts.
Pogo
No, it wasn't meaningless, in fact that was the bit of encouragement I needed today. Thanks bro. God is so wonderful.
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To Everyone, this was so helpful today(sort of). All this reminds me of how many times we are to forgive someone, seventy times seven. Yet, I have been having trouble forgiving myself lately or believing God forgives me. I have been failing miserably. So, what's new with mankind!!! Yet,I can't seem to get over this hump. I know intellectually that God forgives us if we acknowledge our sins but exactly how does one keep moving forward? I am about ready to quit trying as I just am so fed up with myself and others. I have NO patience left, of which I never had that much to begin with. I feel defeated. Will someone please make sense out of this as I can see inconsistencies but can't seem to get clarity. I don't seem to care and am accepting this like it's ok. I am not worried too much and am not depressed, just complacent (an excuse ????) and also thinking thoughts that God has left me because of the many mercies I have received and have failed Him over and over and over. Love you, Judy
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Judy if that was unique to you we could be worried! The hardest thing to do is forgive yourself! We all are failures, we are what God has created..our natures are ugly and there is nothing good in us!! Sometimes just finding anything worthwhile in ourselves is the hardest thing we've ever done!! The one sure thing is we can't go by our feelings...because God will never leave us even though we can not "feel" Him! Many times we question whether He's even there at all! But guess what, Judy? God loves us even though we don't and can't love ourselves, I have experienced this so many times myself..just wondering how anyone could love me at all and then I'm reminded what great price was paid for me..and even though I may not FEEL lovely or lovable that doesn't phase God at all!! He goes right on loving me just the same! Sometimes a friend has to remind me that I am loved! So as a friend I want to remind you that you are loved by God and by ME!! And by a lot of other people, too!! Don't be condemned, Judy but be loved!!
Love you!!
Kathy :-* :)
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Kathy, I could actually feel my heart letting go of a bit of the barrier I had erected. If I have a barrier I feel safer from hurt. It's a terrible thing to hate but at least I don't let on I am vulnerable (maybe here but nowhere else) And it is not painful to hate but hating makes for separation from God.
How little love it takes for me to see where I am going wrong. And if it is true for me then maybe I will be able to see that barrier in others and know it for what it is.
Perhaps this is more of an emotional issue than a spiritual one. Now, how to change it because I hate crying.
What does an emotionally healthy person do with all the pain? Like children, one needs to soften them up at times with lots of love to break that stubborn hateful streak. There is no one here to do that except myself and the realization of God loving me is so foreign anymore. I seem to regulate how much love I let in. I have become so detached.
I think I will go for counseling to help establish new methods for myself.
Gee, just think if I were loved on a daily basis what I would come up with. Thanks, Judy
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Judy,
Don't feel like you are alone in this walk and how you think and feel about it. I have learned in the last couple of years to step into my "bubble"; it is safe there, and I don't feel the pain of my sin and the pain of other peoples' sin. However, the tragedy is becoming so "numb" that you end up being somewhat oblivious to what is going on outside that "bubble" and cannot discern when somebody is hurting and needs your help. I need the bubble to survive... I can either cry a lot, be vulnerable, become so tenderhearted that I am at the breaking point, or go into my bubble, numb out, and feel very little of anything. At least, I seem to function and can concentrate on my studies and the task in front of me.
I had an extremely hard day today; this day must have been the umpteenth time in my life that I had to scrap my dreams and start from scratch. It's like a giant glass bowl that falls to the ground and shatters into a million pieces. The only comfort in all of this is the knowledge that God IS ON CONTROL. Right now I am as frightened as any child would be in a thunderstorm... my bubble is not accessible either and the true emotions are surfacing. I don't like it, but I don't want to fight God's work in my life anymore; I am weary of trying. I want to be flexible if I need to be and letting go of (my) dreams may be part of the growing process.
Judy, I wish I had all the answers; I don't!!!
Angie
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Hi Judy,
So you get those day often too; well sorry to say but so do i, everyday. Here is the secret to overcoming that i use; run as fast as possible to GOD.
1Jn 1: 6-10 (Rotherham)
6 If we say—We have, fellowship, with him! and, in darkness, are walking, we are dealing falsely, and not doing the truth;
7 Whereas, if, in the light, we are walking, as, he, is in the light, we have, fellowship one with another, and, the blood of Jesus his Son, is cleansing us from all sin.
8 If we say—Sin, have we none! we are deceiving, ourselves, and, the truth, is not in us.
9 If we are confessing our sins, faithful, is he and, righteous—that he should forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say—We have not sinned! false, are we making, him, and, his word, is not in us.
Oh Yes, you have my Love guaranteed; everyday.
george :-* ;D :-*.
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Here is the secret to overcoming that i use; run as fast as possible to GOD.
AND, even if and when we fall down 'running back to Him as fast as possible', HE can pick us up and put us right back on the road we were on, 'running as fast as possible to Him'.
angie and judy,
i love you ladies.
claudia
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This is a great thread.
My last year has been spent with many hours verbally and thoughtfully flogging myself to the point of what seems like I’ve beat myself to a walking pile of quivering mental jello. Most of it stemming from attempts to understand that there is no such thing as freewill. So I’ve tried to convince myself that we do only God’s will. Ray says: “The human will is not free to change anything that God has pre-appointed. You will "will" according to the circumstances God places in your path. And you are not free to "will" otherwise.”
So how come I feel so rotten? Because I am rotten. But still, it is a hard thing to understand. And even with that I would flog myself even more for not being smart enough to “get it”, and apply it. It’s a vicious terrible cycle. So I really appreciate the comments from Marques: “Try not to become frustrated with spiritual truths that you have trouble understanding. Instead give God all glory & thanksgiving for the ones you DO UNDERSTAND. A good servant that is faithful with a little brings a reward similar as the servant faithful in much (Luke 19:12-19).”
And maybe that is just exactly Gods aim at this point. Of late one good result from this mental degradation is becoming abundantly clear and that is I will only mentally and spiritually understand that which God allows me to understand, and not one minute prior to that time will I “get” anything. And be thankful for what is understood at this point. It will lead to even better understandings.
So, I understand Roy…..and Judy…..and Angie.
It’s a humbling mental and emotional experience like no other. We are simply not in control of our spiritual growth. Sometimes it doesn’t seem like there is a method to the madness. So “trust” comes into play as well. Yet another lesson in God’s wheel of fortune.
The answers to the questions that Bob lifted from the BT site will be waited on with eager anticipation.
Gary
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Angie, George, Claudia, Bob, Gary, Kathy, it is so confusing some times how we can be trapped in thoughts and can't get out and how just some kind and informative words from our sisters and brothers help so much. It is usually here that I reach out and that is because I trust all of you.
Just knowing we are not alone can boost us up! Someone said, " our relationship with God is not always vertical but horizontal also" and that is what helps me the most. Why are we so hard on ourselves when with others we are more than ready to come to their aid?
Is there really a devil, I know in scripture one tempted Jesus but truthfully I never put much stock in one tempting me, a little nobody. There must be because the tactics he uses are like that of a bully, getting us off by ourselves and driving us nuts. I am learning though not to have much confidence in my own ability. I do need to run and run fast to God like George said. Perhaps I will be more aware now that I am seeming to get this. Thanks everybody, love (God) does conquer and I am going to have to be more courageous in feeling my pain and really getting down that NO CONDEMNATION thought. Sin, yes, but repentance and forgiveness always.
I am doing so much better today and asking God to guard my mind which is carnal (I never thought of my mind as carnal before, just the rest of my body). Is that dumb or not!
How one little word can make a difference. Love and prayers for all of you in your trials. Judy
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Perhaps Ray's ( God's ) timing on this will help many of us. This is from Ray's Home Page on the Mobile Conference
Subjects.
WHY CAN'T YOU OVERCOME SOME OF YOUR SINS?
Why are many Christians spiritually frustrated?
Who or what are your enemies, and how are you to do battle against them?
Why are so many loosing the battle and when will they start winning?
Why do many Scriptures regarding victory over the flesh seem to not apply to you?
Has God called you only to become a failure in life?
When and how will things ever change in your spiritual life?
Do you need to learn more doctrines to better argue the Scriptures with others?
Is there a way to know how God views your spirituality right now, today?
I know I need to hear his teaching on this. Bob
me too bob, me too.
claudia
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This is a great thread and I've read and re-read several times. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I have moments I think I know the answer. How does God view our spirituality right now? WITH LOVE!!! I have my moments of fear and lack of faith but deep inside I believe with all my heart that God is Love. We work at being Christlike and we fail. Just keep trying! We were created to be imperfect. How else could we learn and grow? We aren't Christ Himself. We are given challenges to overcome and we will often fail. We must not lose faith and give up on ourselves. I know I will never achieve perfection in this body. You have often been here for me and I want to be here for you but the whole thing is so clean and simple and pure if you just chalk it up to love. Don't give up on yourself because it ain't over till it's over. God loves you and we love one another. I don't have a fraction of the love and patience of our Father but I love you all and have faith in you. None of us will totally overcome the flesh in this life but we will be cleansed when the day comes for our new life. Just keep your eyes on the goal and love, love, love.
Pogo
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Judy, I love you and I have been there done that before. When, we feel unloved it is easy to harden the heart. Just, remember God loves you like no one else can. When someone treats me like they do not love me instead of hardening my heart now, I ask God to help me to love like he does. Teach me to love those who do not love me back. That, is a hard thing for sure. Most, people pick and choose who they love. I have been like that before. But, when God can help us love the unloveable I feel like I am learning to love like him. Keep on hanging in there Judy. We can really beat ourself up , when we see all our flaws and we hate them. But, God has the power to remove our flaws and it is a painful process for sure.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Hi all. I read this on the bus on my way to work in the morning and that was really great! I was filled with joy by reading this. God bless you all!
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Agreed, Bob.
Since learning about the topics, I've been trying to make bets with myself on whether any of those questions Ray hopes to tackle are answered correctly and scripturally by the various churches.
I'm betting 'no'.
So far, no part of myself is willing to take the other side of the bet.
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I can't wait to hear the tapes and read the transcripts. Obviously, it is a timely message for all of us.
My last year has been spent with many hours verbally and thoughtfully flogging myself to the point of what seems like I’ve beat myself to a walking pile of quivering mental jello.
I get the picture and can so relate :D.
Indeed, it is good to know we are not alone in this.
Although, each one of us may not see our progress every day, but looking back over the last 3 years of my life, I personally have changed quite a bit; for this I am so thankful!
You all are great and I am sincerely grateful that God has led me to this forum.
Angie
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Agreed, Bob.
Since learning about the topics, I've been trying to make bets with myself on whether any of those questions Ray hopes to tackle are answered correctly and scripturally by the various churches.
I'm betting 'no'.
So far, no part of myself is willing to take the other side of the bet.
if i was a bettin, i would be a bettin 'no' too dave in tn.
claudia
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Unfortunately I can't attend the conference but I am so looking forward to hearing the audio once it is posted. I think the biggest reason is that everything that Ray is going to share has been tried in the crucible of suffering and the fires of humbling that his condition has placed him under the last year or so. God has given Ray incredible revelation but has also given him a huge thorn in his flesh at the same time to keep him from being puffed up by the revelations. I believe that these will be the deepest teachings yet that has been produced through our brother and continuing prayers for strength and comfort to him and dear wife.
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Darren, just curious bout sumin: where in the Scripture does it state that there is 'no evil IN God'?
Both "darkness" and "evil" are creations of God...
From the Concordant Literal Version:
Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me."
6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."
7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
...If there were "evil" IN God, then He would not have needed to "create" it.
Daywalker 8)
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6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."
Not to jack your response, daywalker, but this part just stuck out to me...does anyone have any other witnesses to this scripture? Thanks NB
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The subject of “Does God cause all things to happen” can be mind bending. The posts that have been generated are so inspiring because they show how God has opened our minds to understand things that the rest of the world thinks to be foolishness.
I want to add some clarification to my earlier post with the following statements which I have learned from Ray’s teachings. I believe them to be true but if not please advise.
1) God is the cause of everything that has happened or will happen in the future. (All is of God).
2) The “Cause” of everything was initiated by God in the beginning. (.........I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning.........” Isa. 46:9-10)
3) The “beginning” was when God created Jesus Christ. "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God," (Rev. 3:14)
4) God has pre-knowledge. Therefore God, at the “beginning”, knew everything that would occur from the beginning, in the future, concerning mankind because of A) the carnal nature He would instill in mankind and B) The immutable laws He would create. He knew then that far into the future a man living in Florida would kidnap a little girl, rape her and bury her alive. God did not have to make or force this man to do this sin. But because of the man’s carnal nature (God’s responsibility) and God’s immutable laws and circumstances God knew this would happen.
5) As mentioned in previous posts God does not make or force mankind to sin and I believe that with my whole heart but God does dangle a huge carrot in front of us. Then the carnal nature kicks in. Our only hope is Jesus Christ living His life in us. “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.” (Gal. 2:20)
The previous posts on the subject have been very inspiring and have explained in detail that God created evil for the purpose of creating good. It is extremely hard at first for our minds to comprehend how good could come out of the hideous crime described above but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard, And which have not entered the heart of man, All that God has prepared for those who love Him.” (I Cor. 2:9). For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Rom. 14:11) :)
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6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."
Not to jack your response, daywalker, but this part just stuck out to me...does anyone have any other witnesses to this scripture? Thanks NB
Hey NB,
Yea, that part of the translation is a little awkward, I never caught it before... ??? Here's a few other versions:
RSV: Isa 45:6 that men may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
ROTHERHAM: Isa 45:6 That men may get to know. From the rising of the sun And from the west. That there is none besides me,—I, am Yahweh, and there is none else:
CEV: Isa 45:6 Now everyone from east to west will learn that I am the LORD. No other gods are real.
Daywalker 8)
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Ray says,
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
My question is if all is of God, and I do believe that is true, then how can we have desires all on our own.?
If we can desire things of our own and act on them with a choice that isn't free, but the right choice because all is of God whether the choice be good or bad, then how can we have the freedom to have our own desires when we know in our mind and heart that they are bad and yet we don't have the power to remove them without God.
I just can't see where we can have any desire of our own since we were created that way.
I said in my earlier post to this topic that this is one of the most complex things for me to understand. I think the truth of the matter is that I wish I didn't know this truth. It makes me feel helpless and like a puppet. I feel like any choice I make is not a wrong choice because I am not in control. If I could make a choice about anything of my own then that would be the same as free will, wouldn't it?
I am so uncomfortable with this truth. It makes me frustrated and helpless and a lot of other emotions that seems as if tossed tossed into a storm.
Desires: Called out to God when I didn't believe in Him, Seek Him, have faith in Him, Love Him and my enemy's and everyone. These desires are not of my own and I can not remove them of my own, but Ray says we of our own desire women. Am I reading this wrong?
I have God on one shoulder giving me good desires, and Satan on the other shoulder giving me bad desires, and all is of God. Am I wrong about this?
I cling to the truths that Ray has revealed to us by the power of God. Why has red flags gone up about this one? I am praying for understanding.
Peace
Roy
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Hi Roy,
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
First of all as we know that God is sovereign, then that should be the foundation of your understanding concerning Him. He possesses supreme power and authority and nothing happens apart from Him and only by His power does anything even remain in existence. So that is the bases of His being responsible, "in Him ALL things consist" or hold together.
Now He has worked our a brillant plan for the human race, we're in a difficult part of it right now, but all will have salvation and in the end. Now that is the only way this creation can happen, is by His power that He will carry out this plan just as it is happening for us. We have no power to do anything of ourselves, we are just dirt or clay in the Potter's hand. But do you see that by Him giving all humans this experience in life, He is creating individuals, how great is that. Out of all humans that will live no two are exactly alike. It's His plan that all these experiences (good and bad) will have an end result "in bringing many sons to glory" (Heb. 2:10). But we have to go through this life, act it all out before it is a reality. We are actually doing all this that's happening in our life, even if it is caused, so we are accountable.
Act 17:26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
v. 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
v. 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, "For we are also His offspring.'
Very few at this time have been given this understanding about His sovereignty and man having no free will, sure it's a hard concept, but we should seek and embrace our God who is doing this wonderful work.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
We are the privileged few who He is giving the understanding of truth now, but all will eventually come to this same knowledge.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you Kat. See! when I read all that you quoted, I understand, or at least I think I do. I still can't see where we of our own can have any kind of desire. I might have just had a glimpse of accountability and the purpose of it. That's a good start.
I would like to take Marques advice and just be thankful for the things I do understand, but its not happening.
Roy
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Hello Roy.
Email to Ray,hope it helps.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#sovern ---world’s wisdom*
Dear Mary:
Thank you for your comments. At least it is evident that you are using your brain and thinking.
It only seems confusing for you now, Mary. It is a GIANT revelation to come to realize that God is sovereign. If one thinks about, however, it is even a GREATER quantum leap into total foolishness to believe that GOD is NOT SOVEREIGN!!!
If God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my thirteen year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not a god)!
How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in? Why does He allow it to continue? If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way? As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES? Weren't things bad ENOUGH?
The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom. Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?
Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?
I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".
Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!!
And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!
These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, he really is. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!
So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men like Dr. Kennedy and Pastor Hagee who do not understand God's simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.
There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.
The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily is "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).
Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).
Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.
Hope that helps your understanding.
Sincerely,
Ray
Peace...Mark
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Also, if no one minds. ;D
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD
The inhabitants of the whole world believe that they possess a wonderful gift from God called variously: "free will," "free choice," and "free moral agency." Even atheists believe that this marvel is a real and actual power evolved from primordial soup in some ancient sea slime. It is believed and taught that it is this agency of "free will" that enables a person to choose good over evil and even choose his own eternal destiny, independent of any one, any cause, or even God Himself. For if anything… ANYTHING should ever cause, hinder, persuade or restrict one’s supposed free will in any way, it would cease at that moment to be "free."
And so it is repeatedly stated that under no circumstances would God ever interfere with, cause, or force anyone to think or do anything against his sacred and God-given, free will. Of course we just saw a marvelous example in Scripture where men do change their wills against their wills, thus proving that neither their initial nor subsequent will was "free" at all.
I will show that free will is indeed an "idol of the heart" which needs to be repented of. And of all man’s sacred cows, free will is the most sacred of all. It is undoubtedly the most difficult doctrine in man’s walk with God to acknowledge and give up. And though neither science nor Holy Scripture know anything of a power called "free will," most will continue to defend it even in the light of a mountain of Scriptural proof that contradicts it at every turn.
To even question the existence of such a universally accepted sacred cow that has been lauded by theologians and philosophers since Eden, is to open oneself to criticism of being either a moron or an heretic. It is rather this theory of free will itself that is moronic and heretical. Yea, it is rather idiotic and evil. God Himself calls the notion of independent free choice, evil. There is a plethora of simple-to-understand teachings in the Scriptures that utterly contradicts the fantasy of man’s supposed "free will."
That man does indeed possess a "will" there is no doubt in either Science or the Scriptures. That such a will is "free," and brings about its own existence, however, is neither demonstrable by Science or Scripture. Contrariwise, both Science and Scripture teach against such an untenable phenomenon.
Remember that God says,
"For the wisdom [the ‘wisdom’ mind you, not the ‘foolishness’]…the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Gk: ‘stupidity’] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness" (I Cor. 3:19).
"CAUSE AND EFFECT"—THE FIRST EDICT OF THE UNIVERSE
Let me interject a few thoughts here before we go on. Science has never found an "effect" anywhere in the universe for which they believe there was not first a "cause." I mean, how could it be otherwise?
What is there anywhere, that can happen, come into existence, display an effect, for which there was absolutely NO CAUSE?
Why is it then that most of humanity believes that they can think thoughts that they themselves brought into existence WITHOUT ANY CAUSE? Why would anyone think such a thing? Well, for one thing, they are not usually, consciously aware of the cause. Therefore, they deceive themselves into believing that their thoughts HAD NO CAUSE!
But since when must the cause of an effect be visible or perceivable in order to be accepted? I can witness the tremendous effects and power of electricity, and yet I have never seen electricity. I see the effects and power of the wind, and yet I have never seen the wind. We can also see things and not feel them. I can see the sky, but I can’t feel the sky. We can also hear sounds, but we can’t see sounds. The rays of the sun burn our skin, but we can’t see the actual rays that burn us. We can smell things that we cannot see, hear, or feel. We can’t see taste.
Then why should it seem strange to us that we can have thoughts without seeing, feeling, hearing, or smelling the CAUSE of those thoughts. It is amazing just how deceiving this doctrine of free will is when we consider that most scientists accept free will as a fact, yet they would never in a million years accept anything else in the universe as coming into existence without a cause!
Psychiatrists and psychologists look for every conceivable CAUSE of mental diseases, personality disorders, and a plethora of behavioral dysfunctions associated with the thinking of the mentally challenged. Try to convince even one of them that these disorders have absolutely no cause whatsoever, and see how they will look at you with a cocked head. But then suggest to these same experts if indeed all of these malfunctioning thought patterns do have a cause, then just maybe all of our properly functioning and socially acceptable thoughts, ALSO HAVE CAUSES. And they will AGAIN look at you with a cocked head of incredulity! Does anyone see a CONTRADICTION in all this free will philosophy?
Peace...Mark
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Roy, Kat and Mark,
Thanks, for the reminders Today.
I just heard a clunk as something fell back into place this very moment. GOD Is doing a strange work in us; for a few minutes this morning, i was feeling like a ping pong ball being wacked by very powerful and skilled players and wanting to yell; STOP.
Ok it is good now; i just ran back to ABBA, In Jesus Christ Name And Power.
Php 2: 12-13 (Phillips NT)
12 So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility.
12 For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
george. :)
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See! when I read all that you quoted, I understand, or at least I think I do.
And now for some dessert... :)
What to do when you don't Understand God's Ways.
(Isaiah 55:8-9 KJV)
(8) For my thoughts {are} not your thoughts, neither {are} your ways my ways, saith the Lord. (9) For {as} the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
(Jeremiah 33:3 KJV)
Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.
(Romans 8:31 KJV)
What shall we then say to these things? If God {be} for us, who {can be} against us?
(Romans 8:35-37 KJV)
(35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? {shall} tribulation, or distress, or perse- cution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaugh- ter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
(1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV)
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God {is} faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear {it}.
(Psalm 34:19 KJV)
Many {are} the afflictions of the righteous: but the Lord delivereth him out of them all.
(Psalm 55:22 KJV)
Cast thy burden upon the Lord, and he shall sustain thee: he shall never suffer the righteous to be moved.
(Isaiah 41:10 KJV)
Fear thou not; for I {am} with thee: be not dismayed; for I {am} thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
(Romans 8:28 KJV)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to {his} purpose.
(Hosea 6:3 KJV)
Then shall we know, {if} we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter {and} former rain unto the earth.
(Psalm 18:30 KJV)
{As for} God, his way {is} perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he {is} a buckler to all those that trust in him.
(Hebrews 10:23 KJV)
Let us hold fast the profession of {our} faith without wavering; (for he {is} faithful that prom- ised;)
(Jeremiah 32:40 KJV)
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
(Psalm 138:8 KJV)
The Lord will perfect {that which} concern- eth me: thy mercy, O Lord, {endureth} for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.
(1 Peter 4:12-13 KJV)
(12) Beloved, think it not strange con- cerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
Peace...Mark
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Hello Roy,
We all have our 'own' feelings, thoughts, emotions, and we all make our 'own' choices. But that, it simply means that all of the thoughts, feelings, emotions that lead to actions all 'come out of us'. Nobody 'forces' us to make any of our choices [for the most part... of course there are exceptions, like a person with a gun in their hands...]. :o
But all our thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions all begin from 'within' us, specifically 'our hearts'; and all of these are affected by everything around us...
Who created man's heart? God.
Who created man's body? God.
Who created man's physical, mental, chemical layout? God.
Who created man's brain? God.
Who created all men/women's genetic makeup? God.
Who gave man the ability to have emotion? God.
Who gave man the ability to transfer his/her thoughts, feelings, & emotions into actions? God.
Who decides the sex of each person? God.
Who chooses the parents of each person? God.
Who chooses the ethnicity of each person? God.
Who chooses the place of birth for each person? God.
Who chooses the age/era of birth for each person? God.
etc., etc., etc.,...
"All is of God"
Daywalker 8)
Ray says,
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
My question is if all is of God, and I do believe that is true, then how can we have desires all on our own.?
If we can desire things of our own and act on them with a choice that isn't free, but the right choice because all is of God whether the choice be good or bad, then how can we have the freedom to have our own desires when we know in our mind and heart that they are bad and yet we don't have the power to remove them without God.
I just can't see where we can have any desire of our own since we were created that way.
I said in my earlier post to this topic that this is one of the most complex things for me to understand. I think the truth of the matter is that I wish I didn't know this truth. It makes me feel helpless and like a puppet. I feel like any choice I make is not a wrong choice because I am not in control. If I could make a choice about anything of my own then that would be the same as free will, wouldn't it?
I am so uncomfortable with this truth. It makes me frustrated and helpless and a lot of other emotions that seems as if tossed tossed into a storm.
Desires: Called out to God when I didn't believe in Him, Seek Him, have faith in Him, Love Him and my enemy's and everyone. These desires are not of my own and I can not remove them of my own, but Ray says we of our own desire women. Am I reading this wrong?
I have God on one shoulder giving me good desires, and Satan on the other shoulder giving me bad desires, and all is of God. Am I wrong about this?
I cling to the truths that Ray has revealed to us by the power of God. Why has red flags gone up about this one? I am praying for understanding.
Peace
Roy
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It's very easy to recognize that God is in control of History, or to see the working of God in somebody else's life in such a way that we cannot imagine it being different than it was. It's not as easy to place ourself in that history and believe that God is just as much in control of US as he has been in the history of all those 'other people'. He does it by causing the entire chain of events (like those outlined by Daywalker) and billions of other ones that we'll likely never fully understand (the mind and ways of God).
Is that fair? Of course it is. It's fair on the face of it because this whole shebang is HIS creation, including us! He can do whatever He wants with it. It's also fair, because it can't be any different than the way He knew from the beginning it would unfold and end. Once He decided to create, nothing is left to chance or to a will other than His own which He's had from the beginning.
We may believe that we can conjure up some 'choice' that hasn't been absolutely pre-determined by all the billions and billions of circumstances which led up to that choice. We may even believe that everything flows along as it has been foreknown, until God steps in in some special way to 'change' what He had already decided and knew to be what was going to happen (including our choices).
The truth is, THE most 'Pre-Ordained' event/personage in the history of the world is also the event/personage God has set up from the beginning to be the cause to the end of what He has ordained from the beginning. Is there a more prophesied or promised or preordained event than the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world"? The God who could do anything does THAT. He IS that. Nothing can undo that.
That event/personage, in turn, is the most powerful CAUSE of people's choices since creation itself. He's going to work the power of His death and resurrection through every man; first Himself, then the firstfruits, etc. etc.
The sovereignty of God is part of the salvation of all. They can't be seperated, scripturally. Nobody will be saved against their will. Nobody will be saved by their will. All will be saved by the will of God--no matter what it takes--to the glory of God. That's the way I see it.
Don't be dismayed if you don't understand it all. I keep saying this, but it's really the way I think: If I could understand the mind and ways of God fully, I would cease to be impressed by Him. Believe the scriptures. Let God be true and every man a liar. Including me. :D
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Email to Ray, hope it helps.
So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end.
We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.
The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true,
the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily His "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).
Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION?
O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).
Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.
roy, this email info will hopefully be the next step in His giving you undertanding of this 'hump' you are desiring to get over.
claudia
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Well today is a new day and finally after much prayer and reading and discussing this over with Silvia; I am at peace with this topic. I have struggled with this for six months or more. Yes! a big load has been lifted. I even think I can explain it to someone else. Wow! this feels good to say the least.
Peace
Roy
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8) 8) :) :) :)
claudia
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Well today is a new day and finally after much prayer and reading and discussing this over with Silvia; I am at peace with this topic. I have struggled with this for six months or more. Yes! a big load has been lifted. I even think I can explain it to someone else. Wow! this feels good to say the least.
Peace
Roy
Roy,glad to hear that the Lord has opened your heart and mind to one of His Grand Truths.The journey to the Truth can be difficult at times, but to the one who keeps knocking, the rewards are blessings indeed.
Matthew 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will
be opened to you..
Revelation 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens
the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Peace...Mark
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Hi Roy,
Ditto on Mark's comments and Scripture quotes. Here are two more; that tells you why you should keep going.
Mat 13: 44-46 (RYLT NT)
44 'Again, the reign of the heavens is like to treasure hid in the field, which a man having found did hide, and from his joy goes, and all, as much as he has, he sells, and buys that field.
45 'Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a man, a merchant, seeking goodly pearls,
46 who having found one pearl of great price, having gone away, has sold all, as much as he had, and bought it.
george :).
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Absollutely great reading!!! I love reading all of our thoughts on things, but when I read Ray's info (thanks marky) it just clicks and I can GET it!! (at least for awhile then, I need a good thread like this again ::))
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Gena,yes. We are all being Blessed by our Lord and Savior through His work in our teacher, L Ray Smith :) ;).
Peace...Mark
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I don't see God's plan always but somewhere in this mess of life it is here. I don't know why I was abused , why we suffered through a couple of natural disasters and why we are in this place we are now. Maybe the glory that God gets from my abuse is that I can truly tell others, "I know what that feels like and I survived". Why the men had that desire... I don't know... but I think strong drink made it come out. Even so, they had a choice to make... act on it or not. The first time I was only 3!I don't know how a 3 year old can be looked at in a sexual way but they chose to act on it. I hated them for a long time but now... I hope they have made their own peace with God and I am sad for the little child I was but so glad that God watched over me and brought me through to this side. Love to ya'll, Jennie
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:'( :'(.
i am so sorry jennie.
claudia
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It is okay. I am good now. No longer haunted by the horrors.
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Hi Forum,
Sometimes, while perusing the Forum and reading the various Posts and seeing: " What's a going on," I often look to see what Guests are viewing, sometimes looking for Gems, older Threads that seemed informative & helpful from the Past and decided to comment on this one by copying & pasting the fine points gleaned from Members responses, thinking maybe this might help some of Our New ones & even New Guests. Read Below these beneficial responses & add or ask questions, if You desire.
FROM DAYWALKER: God ultimately causes everything to happen.That doesn't mean that He 'directly' does everything, but He is the cause of everything, because He is the Creator, Author and Originator of everything that exists--including things like darkness, evil, Satan, flowers, light, Jesus...
FROM MARKY MARK: An Email He supplied of Ray's; Dear Dean: Regarding the Forum's question as to whether God has a free will or not:
"Free will" is not a topic of Scripture. Humanity absolutely does not have a free will/free choice disposition. All thoughts and actions have a cause. God, however, is the First Cause. God answers to no one and no one dictates or causes God to think or do anything--all Protestant and Catholic prayers to the contrary included. However, we are told in the Scriptures who "God cannot lie," for example or why God never "changes his mind." This is a governing factor to God's disposition, but it is not an outside force. Here is how God thinks and operates everything in the universe:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works [operates] ALL THINGS AFTER THE C-O-U-N-S-E-L OF H-I-S O-W-N W-I-L-L" (Eph. 1:11).
God be with you,
Ray
FROM KAT: Some Points From A Bunch Of Emails she Supplied Of Rays; But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man is testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN. Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit. All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.
Evil is necessary for the production or development of good. You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.
All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness. One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.
All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!
FROM MARQUES HARRELL: I think I understand what you are saying George...the only thing is, God does 'cause' men to sin. But He does not 'force' them to.
Rom 8:20-21 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Here, Paul tells us that God made humanity subject to vanity (futility...in other words sin). The Lord purposely created mankind too weak to resist sin. This is a cause which has a direct effect in the lives of every human being.
FROM DAVE FROM TENNESSEE: IN REGARDS TO DEFINING EVIL; Darren...just talking 'language' here, not Theology. The term "Evil" in English does not always have a moral connotation. This verse is a good example of that. "...the sword, and the famine, and the destroying beast, and the plague..." are 'evils' in that sense. You could name more. Death, headaches, poverty, etc. These things are not necessarily morally 'evil' like murder or other gross sins. So, yes, I think you may be putting too fine a point on it. Remember where sin comes from.
AN EMAIL OF RAY'S PROVIDED BY MARQUES REGARDING RESPONSIBILITY/ACCOUNTABILITY: There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.
1.
People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins. They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy. The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF. God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering. Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.
2.
We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.
FROM KAT: As you know God is the creator and sustains all there is and this automatically makes Him responsible for whatever happens. So He has a plan and in this plan He determined that human beings that He created required an experience in evil as a backdrop. Now that was so that when He would eventually show us righteousness we would have this backdrop of evil to compare it to and therefore understand it's goodness better. But what we do is indeed caused by our weak carnal nature and His creating us this way was not a sin in and of itself. But He does take responsibility for creating us this way and will rectify this completely. But it is our own weak nature created within us that desires for and is actually carrying out our own lusts... I guess that would be the rotten board. But the rotten board is not evil in and of itself, it did not start out as a rotten board, it's the nature of things that it became that way. Just like a piece of wood cannot remain perfect, all physical things must come to an end, so it will rot away. Because God made it so that all physical things will not last, is not evil. But He's accountable for that.
FROM DAYWALKER(CHRISTOPHER): Both "darkness" and "evil" are creations of God...
From the Concordant Literal Version:
Isaiah 45:5 I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else. There is no Elohim except Me. I am belting you, yet you do not know Me."
6 That they may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is a limit apart from Me. I am Yahweh Elohim, and there is none else."
7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things." ...If there were "evil" IN God, then He would not have needed to "create" it.
AN EMAIL OF RAY'S PROVIDED BY MARKY MARK REGARDING THE WORLDS WISDOM OR LACK THEREOF; It only seems confusing for you now, Mary. It is a GIANT revelation to come to realize that God is sovereign. If one thinks about, however, it is even a GREATER quantum leap into total foolishness to believe that GOD is NOT SOVEREIGN!!!
If God is NOT sovereign, then we have a god who isn't GOD AT ALL! How could someone be "God" and NOT know what humans are going to do? (I know what my thirteen year old daughter is going to do MOST of the time, and I'm not a god)!
How could God NOT have foreseen the absolute MESS this world is in? Why does He allow it to continue? If man thinks there is a better way to do things, why doesn't God think that way? As Mark Twain mused, why did God CREATE DISEASES? Weren't things bad ENOUGH?
The truth is that it takes more than just knowledge to understand God's strange doings; it also takes a bit of wisdom. Now if the GREATEST wisdom of this world (including the wisdom of the two BILLION Christians), is, according to God Himself, FOOLISHNESS AND STUPIDITY,why would we expect anything else, but darkness and blindness regarding God and His revelation to us?
Christ was great with metaphors. He said, "If the light that is in you is DARKNESS; how GREAT IS THAT DARKNESS"?
I have asked "great minds" and "great scholars" to tell me what these great "wisdom's" of the world are that God calls "foolishness and stupidity." And they usually will give as an answer something that most people THEMSELVES consider "foolish and stupid." No, I don't want to know what even the world itself considers foolish and stupid, I want to know what the world considers "WISE", but that GOD considers "STUPID".
Now I have mediated on this grand theme for at least a few thousand hours. And I will tell you what is the most universally held philosophy of ALL MANKIND, including Christians AND heathens and non-believers. And that is that man possesses a "FREE WILL" (or "free moral agency" as some would call it). This bit of human wisdom is taught in ALL SCHOOLS of the world! But, amazingly, there is NO SUCH THING--it is TOTAL FOOLISHNESS AND TOTAL STUPIDITY!! And it is because of this foolish wisdom of the world that Christendom has adopted the theory that God is NOT sovereign. They SAY that He is, but they prove by their teachings that they don't really believe it. And so they blame SATAN for all the uncontrollable evil in the world that can't be directly attributed to "man's free will". And the result is a God Who is no god at all. In fact, a very MEAN AND VINDICTIVE AND HATE-FILLED god that will supposedly TORTURE WITH REAL FIRE most of his creatures without water and without mercy for ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!
These humanly devised unscriptural heresies are stupid, foolish, and evil. But God wants it to be taught anyway. Why? To ultimately show mankind just how stupid, and foolish, and evil, he really is. Mankind NEEDS a Saviour. God Himself IS both the Creator of the mess, and the SAVIOUR of it ALL!!! Either that, or SATAN IS GOD!
So why get upset and angry over stupid and evil things that God INTENDED TO BE IN THE FIRST PLACE? Because God also gave us EMOTIONS, and brains, etc. He WANTS us to hate evil and love righteousness even though it was God Himself Who created them BOTH. It was GOD who invented, created, and planted the tree of the knowledge of both "good AND EVIL". God wants there to be men like Dr. Kennedy and Pastor Hagee who do not understand God's simple truths, and then He WANTS people like me to EXPOSE their foolishness and unscriptural heresy.
There is a great PURPOSE in it all. And all will turn out just great in the end. We need a spirit of wisdom to trust God that He knows EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING DOWN TO THE VIBRATION OF THE LAST ELECTRON.
The Roman saints asked Paul this same rhetorical question, only they, unlike most people, did realize that no one COULD go against God's intention. But they wanted to know, since this is true, the fact that all that happens is according to God's intention (not necessarily is "will"--that is another subject. "Intention"--what DOES happen, is different from "will"--which is the end result after all the bad things that DID happen, NO LONGER happen).
Why does God blame people for things that He INTENDED that they do in the first place? Listen: "You will be protesting to me, then, 'Why, then, is He [God] still blaming [for us sinning]? for who has withstood His [God's] INTENTION? O man! who are you, to be sure, who are answering again to God? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER [that's GOD], 'Why do you make me thus?'" (See Romans 9:12-25).
Paul then goes on to say that God has the RIGHT to do things as He pleases. Even making vessels of DISHONOR for a period of time to be used in exalting the vessels of HONOR.
Well, I think that gives a pretty good overview, notice that Ray's comments are in Blue, I always give Him the color Blue, that's My favorite color.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Hey Samson,
Funny, I remember this thread like it was yesterday. Hard to believe it was nearly 2 years ago!
Thanks for "resurrecting" this old post :D
Daywalker 8)
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I agree w/ Daywalker....thanks for bringing up this "oldie but goodie"....wow, too much info for just one re-through...I gotta take notes-which I did the first time it came on but can't find those notes.
thanks Samson!!
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In Him all things consist...~
As the Parent of the Child is the Greater Authority. Father is ALWAYS greater than Son.
For me it is like a child, asleep in their room, safe and sound, lights off ~ God put Adam to sleep...lights out!
In the dream of the child, anything can happen yet nothing changes. The Father of the child doesn’t go anywhere and the child doesn’t end up in death which as sleep, according to Jesus, is not permanent, or Hell that is as a most ghoulish and fearful nightmare of being apart from the warm Love of God! God is Love.
For me, it is like there are two kinds of dreams. Two kinds of resurrection 1st and 2nd. Some will wake up and be very glad they did and others very sorry.
God doesn’t dream the dream of His Children for His thoughts are not our thought nor His ways our ways...
So yes God causes everything and there is nothing God doesn’t cause yet also God is not subject to our dreams or perspectives. God is not asleep! Neither was Jesus.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Arc
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William Shakespeare said; All the world is a stage and all the men and women are merely players, I would say that is a fairly accurate statement.
It is pretty clear that God caused every thing that happened to Joseph to turn out for good, as it concerns all the happenings in Egypt and so on.
Could Pharaoh resist God? if he could have he would have thrown a monkeywrench in all of God's plans. (how absurd!) ::) :) What did he tell Pharaoh concerning his life?
Joel
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William Shakespeare said; All the world is a stage and all the men and women are merely players, I would say that is a fairly accurate statement.
It is pretty clear that God caused every thing that happened to Joseph to turn out for good, as it concerns all the happenings in Egypt and so on.
Could Pharaoh resist God? if he could have he would have thrown a monkeywrench in all of God's plans. (how absurd!) ::) :) What did he tell Pharaoh concerning his life?
Joel
Another good point Joel(Your Post above), to add to Our wealth of information regarding God's Sovereignty & Prevailing Will in Our lives.
Thanks, Samson.
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... I cried.. :(.....I felt like I had no skin on.. :'(...then I felt happy~ :)...posts can have that effect ~ :D :)
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I hate to repeat myself, but Gordon, in one of his posts, said it well: (to paraphrase) the forum is therapeutic; good and bad quotes. I think Arc just echoed that in her elegant way of putting things. "There is a season...". "All is of God..." and for our edification as "He...works in us to will and to do..." God is sovereign! True freedom! Does this make sense? I hope so. So much to learn about and from all of you out there in this forum. Amen.
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I've done a little work in this thread to keep it on-topic. Try to maintain that.
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Thank you Dave.
I haven't read this whole thread. Probably gonna say what's already been said.
Some days, I get it. I have a pretty good grasp on the concept of God causing all things and on other days, I don't. Seems I start down a rabbit hole that twists and turns my understanding and I get a little lost. One thing I know for sure is that it doesn't matter whether I get it or not now. <That is one thing I have found some peace in knowing.
If everything I've learned from Ray's teaching's is true and comes to pass then one day we will all know what the real deal is. If some of it ain't exactly spot on or doesn't come to pass (I think he is and it will) then we'll find out the missing parts of the puzzle in the process of it all.