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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: robby.morales on July 20, 2014, 01:59:30 AM
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I'll be brief:
I have a family. We are not currently attending church. I worry about what doctrines my wife and children will be exposed to should we settle on a local fellowship. Any suggestions on the subject of attending church?
Thanks in advance.
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Hi Robbie,
Brief answer:
You do not need to attend any organized religious fellowship in order to please God.
Your children would probably learn some interesting facts in "Sunday school" if they did attend, but they would also be exposed to myths and traditions that would leave them with more unanswered questions than valid biblical answers.
I realize that you are facing a serious challenge to your sincere desire to provide Bible teaching for your children and I hope that you will find the help you desire from others here on the forum.
Personally, I would suggest that you consider preparing yourself to "home teach" the true facts about God and Jesus in a basic and simple manner.
If your wife is willing to help with this approach once it is established, it would have a good chance of success. Please keep in mind though that you are the responsible parent and need to take the lead with your wife's approval. Don't expect her to do the research or the preparation for the lessons, that is your job until perhaps she asks to participate, so go slow and pray a lot.
The important thing is to exercise great patience and taking the time to prepare simple lessons. Work toward gaining the trust of your family in simple ways rather than any deep or difficult topics. Teach about God's great love...
You can even mix basic science lessons with your Bible readings and I'm sure that the children will enjoy your use of the computer and maps and pictures of other lands for their lessons if you are able to find appropriate material for them.
It won't be easy, but you will learn great lessons along the way and the family will draw closer together as you worship in your home. Remember to keep it simple and friendly and fun. God's son Jesus is a fun fellow and very patient with the "little children' including all of us on the forum.
Love and hugs, Indiana Bob
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Hi Robby,
Church = synagogue of Satan, there is nothing there that leads to life, please, have your family read what is on this site. B.T. = life.
Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
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This answer from Ray helps me:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12164.msg105772.html#msg105772
Hi Mr Smith.
I am Very grateful once again to write you this little note and commend. Since I wrote to you in 2009, to thank you about tithing which I din’t agree with its teaching from the start. Now I am a free man with no guilt in heart. Now I know you don’t attend any church. But may be you know of any church that is teaching the same message, that you are teaching, I have tried for many years to find the church that Jesus built according to MT 16verse18. but to no avail each and every organizations are not teaching the whole truth of God.
I am very confused as I do have the family, that is looking up to me for spiritual guidance. Especially my children as the bible say we must teach them while they are still young, now I do know where to start.
Another thing I would like to thank you. Because since I started reading your writings, it is difficult to read other Christians books iam also looking up to you for spiritual guidance, always I read about your current condition. And I pray to God to keep you until you finish this good work you have started.
Sir you will bare with me, I am an African man in south Africa, not educated so English is not my language but I hope the holy spirit will help to explain what I am trying to say
Thanks
Dear Abel: I understand you problem with finding the Church that Jesus built.
It still exists, but not in the form and practice of what it was when Jesus started it.
But it was prophesied that it would go into apostasy (a falling away from the true
faith once delivered). So from that "falling away" Church, God has been calling
OUT a people to restore and live by the original teachings of its founder--Jesus.
So don't be discouraged. You may not find what you would think is the "True"
Church, but you have found the "TRUTH" of that original Church. And remember,
our fellowship with the Called Out Elect is "IN SPIRIT." And our fellowship and
worship of God is also "IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH" (John 4:21-24). No thing or
no body can ever prevent you from worshiping God in "spirit and in truth"!
God be with you,
Ray
Rhys
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Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
Is this false doctrine?
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Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
Is this false doctrine?
As Ray brought out, the false church does not believe that Jesus died. They believe that His immortal soul lived on and He was alive in spirit. They also believe He went to preach to the fallen angels in hell after His crucifixion. All lies.
Also in the false trinity doctrine the false church teaches He is one of three coequal gods and that all three are separate persons. All lies.
The false church teaches all lies. That is why Jesus tells us, "Come out of her My people."
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Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
Is this false doctrine?
Not only do they not believe Jesus died, as JFK pointed out, but they also don't believe He died (or was crucified and went to hell) for our sins. Okay, maybe our sins, but they don't believe He also paid for the sins of the whole world, as 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14 plainly state.
The Church will also say "God is love" and "God is sovereign"---but they deny these two truths more vehemently than any other.
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Indiana bob and Rhys:
Gentlemen i want to thank you both for your replies. I am encouraged and will seek to lead my family. Thanks again.
Respectfully, Robby
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Hi Largeli.
If you want to poison a dog you know , you cannot give it pure poison because he will sniff it out and not eat but if you mix it in with good food he will eat it.
The church does it to people this way. Some truth but mostly lies. I notice you seem to have a disdain for anyone who speaks against the church.
If you wish to defend an institution that hurts people its your prerogative to but I don’t share your sediments. If you believed in the things that Ray taught I’m sure you would change your position as well.
If you believe that Christendom is the way to go that is between God and you not you and me but if your trying to sell me how truthful an righteous the church is I choose to believe Ray over you.
God bless you Largeli, have a wonderful day. :)
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Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
Is this false doctrine?
Not only do they not believe Jesus died, as JFK pointed out, but they also don't believe He died (or was crucified and went to hell) for our sins. Okay, maybe our sins, but they don't believe He also paid for the sins of the whole world, as 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14 plainly state.
The Church will also say "God is love" and "God is sovereign"---but they deny these two truths more vehemently than any other.
adding to the bandwagon:
Jesus is a total failure......He cannot save the world. Most of the humanity will be barbecued in hell forever and ever...... :) :D ;)
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Seriously, I’m telling you the truth. Why subject your family to false doctrine ? It’s all the church has to offer. ;)
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
Is this false doctrine?
Not only do they not believe Jesus died, as JFK pointed out, but they also don't believe He died (or was crucified and went to hell) for our sins. Okay, maybe our sins, but they don't believe He also paid for the sins of the whole world, as 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 4:14 plainly state.
The Church will also say "God is love" and "God is sovereign"---but they deny these two truths more vehemently than any other.
adding to the bandwagon:
Jesus is a total failure......He cannot save the world. Most of the humanity will be barbecued in hell forever and ever...... :) :D ;)
They must serve an excellent steak in that place.........hot sauce anyone ;D
Rhys
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I'm going to play devil's advocate, I suspect most will disagree!
I'm in the UK and I do go to our local Anglican church. Why? Certainly not for the in-depth teaching, but for the community aspect. Unless you have several local friends and families who all subcribe to the truths found here, it's going to be a lonely existence and what is more, you're likely to find your opportunities to share these truths are limited.
Our church is very inclusive, and yes, that means that plenty of the people who come aren't even Christians, and some would just about agree with some of the "nicer" doctrines but would baulk at anything harder to swallow. But I don't confuse our local church with "THE CHURCH", i.e. the worldwide body of true believers.
Interestingly, we had a recent Bible study evening about hell and so on, and essentially our vicar outlined precisely the truths found here as his beliefs! He has never openly preached about this (his sermons tend to be gentle, reflective, "thought for the day" stuff). I first found BT as I studied around some challenges given to me by a member of my church small group, who was already wise regarding UR. I have found several opportunities already to get fellow congregants thinking about these issues.
Finally - and this isn't quite the same in the USA I don't think - but we do have an "established church" in the UK. Even in a small village there will be a parish church, who's vicar also performs pastoral visits to the infirm and elderly. You can be an atheist with no family who has never been to church, but if you are dying and would like to speak to a vicar at 3am, there will be someone there for you. Personally I think that is valuable. And that means that if you are having a tough time, you move to a new town and you decide to randomly go to church, there will be an Anglican church nearby that should welcome you.
So one of the other reasons I go is because anyone wondering about God, "seeking" etc. is likely to head there as a first port of call, and I can welcome them, invite them to dinner, help them think about these things even if they're not even sure whether they believe in God or not, well before we start talking about deeper scriptural truths.
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Sounds like your congregation is right for you and know this, God has you where you need to be at this point in time.
Craig
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Sounds like your congregation is right for you and know this, God has you where you need to be at this point in time.
Craig
Exactly, and that about takes care of this...
I suspect most will disagree!
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New friend Farlsborough,
I'm one who believes that God selects the folks God will work with early in their lives.
We don't know when, but it could in some cases even be generational.
I was born in 1935 into a Presbyterian family that didn't discuss religion or attend services very often. We observed all the traditions such as Christmas & Halloween but there was no Bible study, not even when I joined the church youth groups or Boy Scouts. We just belonged to that congregation and fellowshiped with them loved our minister etc. similar to your own experience.
I've since been through 30 years of Worldwide (sabbath keeping) and 15 years of independent study to arrive at this point in my journey and what I have learned is that God is VERY patient and LONG SUFFERING with those God has chosen to train to become His servants/friends. God lets us learn through personal experience rather than demanding immediate obedience in most instances. So I'm confident that God will let you share you new understanding with as many friends as you desire and let you learn from that opportunity.
I will be interested to learn how it all plays out during the next few years. Please do share from time to time.
Sincerely, Indiana Bob
I'm going to play devil's advocate, I suspect most will disagree!
I'm in the UK and I do go to our local Anglican church. Why? Certainly not for the in-depth teaching, but for the community aspect. Unless you have several local friends and families who all subcribe to the truths found here, it's going to be a lonely existence and what is more, you're likely to find your opportunities to share these truths are limited.
Our church is very inclusive, and yes, that means that plenty of the people who come aren't even Christians, and some would just about agree with some of the "nicer" doctrines but would baulk at anything harder to swallow. But I don't confuse our local church with "THE CHURCH", i.e. the worldwide body of true believers.
Interestingly, we had a recent Bible study evening about hell and so on, and essentially our vicar outlined precisely the truths found here as his beliefs! He has never openly preached about this (his sermons tend to be gentle, reflective, "thought for the day" stuff). I first found BT as I studied around some challenges given to me by a member of my church small group, who was already wise regarding UR. I have found several opportunities already to get fellow congregants thinking about these issues.
Finally - and this isn't quite the same in the USA I don't think - but we do have an "established church" in the UK. Even in a small village there will be a parish church, who's vicar also performs pastoral visits to the infirm and elderly. You can be an atheist with no family who has never been to church, but if you are dying and would like to speak to a vicar at 3am, there will be someone there for you. Personally I think that is valuable. And that means that if you are having a tough time, you move to a new town and you decide to randomly go to church, there will be an Anglican church nearby that should welcome you.
So one of the other reasons I go is because anyone wondering about God, "seeking" etc. is likely to head there as a first port of call, and I can welcome them, invite them to dinner, help them think about these things even if they're not even sure whether they believe in God or not, well before we start talking about deeper scriptural truths.
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Rick I like what you said about poisoning a dog.
I'm not trying to 'sell' you anything nor do I have disdain for anyone here OR anyone in the church. But I do think its a religious and irresponsible line of thinking for you to assume that if I believed what Ray wrote than I would change my position. Change my position to what exactly Rick? To your position? Do you suppose that if you and I believe what Ray wrote that we would then have the same opinions?
Your opinions and feelings toward church are not strictly based on what you've read from Rays writings, but they're based on Rays writings AND your personal experience with a church. It's a mistake for anyone to take their own personal experiences and make it 'the rule' for everyone else... In any matter not just church.
I'm not afraid of the big bad wolf at church. I don't feel offended or threatened by the church. I don't look at them as my enemy but as my future brothers and sisters. I never want to make the mistake of looking upon ANYONE as if I'm better than them, or as if I am 'right' and they're 'wrong'. None of us are 'right' we are all 'wrong'. They're are deeper spiritual truths that none of us will know in this age. No one has all the truth.
Christ said 'why do you call me Lord but don't do what I say?' He never said 'why do you call me Lord but don't believe the right doctrine?' Isn't what you do with the knowledge you have more important than how much knowledge you have? I mean, is there going to be some sort of quiz from God someday to see who's got the best doctrine? Will it be true or false or multiple choice?
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To each his own. Jesus will save all eventually.
But if I attended a physical church now, it would be a spiritual death sentence to me.
I am a lonely wanderer on the earth, waiting for the return of the Great King.
Jesus made me free from the great false church. I am so thankful for the magnificent blessing He gave me of freedom. Never will I return to Satan's slavery.
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Back to what Craig said. Robby is where he should be right now and JfK is where he should be right now. And neither of you should be doing anything different.
Until you should be, then you will be.
I still attend a Babylonian church at the moment. I don't want to be there, but I have my reasons for doing so. Everyone here has their reasons (causes) for doing what they do.
I find it usually doesn't help to explain to people why I am doing something. When you explain something to someone, by human nature they reach into their personal experiences to find a way to relate. If they do not have the same experience, they will pick something the closest and form their opinion based on that experience. I have seen this over and over and over. Enough times to makle me believe this is the rule not the exception.
Unless you know why someone is doing what they are doing I don't think it wise to have any opinion on the matter.
And by saying know, I mean having walked their walk and being privy to exactly what God is doing in their life.
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Hi Largeli,
I was reading something to the effect that Satan throne is in the church, also Satan is bound to the church. I will say there was a time I loved going to church, one could find me in the church more than once in a 24 hour period.
I personally will not step one foot into a church today. I will not put anyone under law and say you can not go to church.
If anyone ask me a question concerning my belief system and they disagree with what I believe I don’t feel in anyway compelled to get that one to see it my way. In fact I won’t talk about my belief system any further.
I agree that anyone who now attends church will be our brothers and sisters one day but right now they are not.
When two nations go to war they are enemy’s of each other at the time they are at war but when the war is over they will no longer be enemy’s
Ray has much to say about the synagogue of Satan in his writings and its my understanding that one should familiarize themselves and agree with Ray’s writings before joining this site so that all who belong to this site are like minded.
I had read some of your comments concerning the church you use to or still attend and I notice you speak well of them and how they help the needy and do all sorts of good works, my position and attitude with any church today is what do they teach, what do they believe ?
If they teach the doctrine of hell or the trinity or that when people die they go to heaven or they go to hell or that one must ask Christ into their life before they die or they will be eternally lost then I’m not interested in attending that church.
Unfortunately these are the things Christendom teaches and because I know these are the things they teach I will not step one foot into their door.
If one is going to church to socialize and not going to learn the belief system of Christendom then maybe no harm can come of it, maybe but faith comes by hearing and one should be carful what they listen to.
Whatever people do is between God and them not between God ,them and me , I have enough on my own plate in life without having to add more.
Jesus is savior of the world not Rick. :)
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All -
Is it about our opinions - or "doing and living what Jesus has said in His Word"?
Can two walk together unless they agree - and what is primary to this if not "God's Word".
I personally do not value anyone's opinion, including my own - and my aim is for my opinion(s) to be "His Scriptural Spiritual Truth" as imparted to us by His Holy Spirit.
We either Love Him and His Word, or we Despise His Word.
Those that Despise His Word will always be angry at those who state it and live it.
We therefore cannot avoid upsetting those that Despise His Word.
I agree that we are all where we should be as our Beloved Father has pre prepared our very heart's desires, thoughts, speech and conduct.
We are either being set free by "The Truth" or we are still in Bondage believing lies as "The Truth".
Regards, George.
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Robby,
I am going through a very similar situation at the moment, I hope this helps...
We know that we don't live by bread alone but by EVERY Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Each one of us, in our own age will live out the spiritual Words. We will all go through Christ.
I have been put through the fire and continually live in the fire of the Word which brings judgment to the House of God now, which temple we are. However, my wife and kids are not there yet. I've told them of the dangers and lies that prevail in Babylon but I, as a messenger, can only do my part... I cannot MAKE them do anything (Lord knows I originally tried and have paid dearly for it).
Eventually (and it may take the great white throne judgement) for my wife and kids, they too will come out of the lies of the "church". But until then, I'm learning through His Word and patience to know when to speak and when not to.
I personally cannot go back to babylon, but they have yet to experience the brightness of His coming in their life, I can pray that they will experience this (judgment in their life) and hope that they do, but it's all by His timing, not mine.
How humbling is that!
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To Robbie.....If you have been called out of Babylon beware of going back even if it may look a good idea for various reasons.Does not the phrase a dog returning to his vomit apply,best ask God for the right answer.
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Hi Largeli,
I was reading something to the effect that Satan throne is in the church, also Satan is bound to the church. I will say there was a time I loved going to church, one could find me in the church more than once in a 24 hour period.
I personally will not step one foot into a church today. I will not put anyone under law and say you can not go to church.
If anyone ask me a question concerning my belief system and they disagree with what I believe I don’t feel in anyway compelled to get that one to see it my way. In fact I won’t talk about my belief system any further.
I agree that anyone who now attends church will be our brothers and sisters one day but right now they are not.
When two nations go to war they are enemy’s of each other at the time they are at war but when the war is over they will no longer be enemy’s
Ray has much to say about the synagogue of Satan in his writings and its my understanding that one should familiarize themselves and agree with Ray’s writings before joining this site so that all who belong to this site are like minded.
I had read some of your comments concerning the church you use to or still attend and I notice you speak well of them and how they help the needy and do all sorts of good works, my position and attitude with any church today is what do they teach, what do they believe ?
If they teach the doctrine of hell or the trinity or that when people die they go to heaven or they go to hell or that one must ask Christ into their life before they die or they will be eternally lost then I’m not interested in attending that church.
Unfortunately these are the things Christendom teaches and because I know these are the things they teach I will not step one foot into their door.
If one is going to church to socialize and not going to learn the belief system of Christendom then maybe no harm can come of it, maybe but faith comes by hearing and one should be carful what they listen to.
Whatever people do is between God and them not between God ,them and me , I have enough on my own plate in life without having to add more.
Jesus is savior of the world not Rick. :)
Sounds like your congregation is right for you and know this, God has you where you need to be at this point in time.
Craig
I myself will never go back into Babylon, Rick I have to agree with you , reading and agreeing with Rays teaching is what this site is about! I believe Rays teachings are inspired by God to teach the few! Craig is exactly right! That's why I like this site God sent me here!!
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Since you guys are way more familiar with Rays writings than myself, (not being condescending btw) can you show me where Ray said that coming out of Babylon means not attending a church anymore?
In the free will part D he suggests that the biggest part of coming out of Babylon is to put down our unscriptural belief of free will.. I don't have a problem with rejecting the free will doctrine... Nor do I believe in an eternal flaming hell where unbelievers will be tortured and never let out. And when I say I go to church I mean like maybe 2 to 3 times per year on average. It's always for someone else's benefit not mine but I don't mind either way. There's nothing for me there spiritually but I'm not going to act like I'm too good for anyone. Not just christians. I don't want to treat others like I'm right and they're wrong. Like I said before we are all wrong. You might have a more accurate picture of who God really is than the Christians do but I'm pretty sure you still have misconceptions about God that you won't know in this age.
You guys were all sold out for the Christian Jesus and Christian God at one point weren't you? I'll bet you would've died for what you falsely believed too right? Than God opened your eyes and proved you wrong. I don't know about you guys but that has humbled me. It sounds like it has had the opposite effect on some though. Making them more proud. I'm not directing that to any one person here. Just an overall observation.
It says 'come out of her' but it doesn't end there.. 'Come out of her, that you don't partake of her sins' it's so that you don't partake of her sins and then suffer her plagues. It's not like if you go to a church her sins are just going to rub off on you. I wouldn't join a small group or anything in a church but if a family member is dedicating a baby and wants me there I'll go! I'll sing and praise and worship too! I'll be polite and respectful when the teaching begins. They're spiritually blind. I wouldn't pick on a physically blind man so I'm not going to treat spiritually blind people as if they're lower than me either. They're going to be my brothers and sisters and I am not at war with them. Our war isn't against people!
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11315.0.html
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Hi largeli,
Yes we all have come from the church, we need to have gone through it in order to really know it. But once we are released from that prison of deception by God's good grace, should we then and go back and visit it? Is that not like a slap in the face of God for what He has delivered us from?
Luke 9:62 But Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
I have no animosity towards the church whatsoever, it is what it is... but I cannot visit in good conscience and join them as if it does not matter what they teach and stand for. I won't say I would not attend a funeral in a church, but that is of necessity sometimes.
Here are some excerpts from the article '23 Minutes in Hell.'
http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html -----
Scriptures blow away virtually all of the damning and unscriptural doctrines of Christendom-the immortal soul, man's supposed 'free will, the unnecessary doctrine of resurrecting dead people, the 'in this life only' theory of salvation, the sentencing before judgment teaching, the failure of Jesus to "BE the Saviour of the world," the failure of Jesus to take away all the sins of the world, the "God is justified in torturing billions for all eternity" blasphemy, the failure of God to be "ALL in All," the blasphemous teaching that man's will is greater than God's, and that man can thwart God's plan through his fabled free will, God desires to save all humanity, but it just won't happen. Etc., etc., etc.
v
for over ten years now, have been warning people over the Worldwide Web, of the many damnable and evil teachings and practices of the Church. And of all the false teachings, there is no greater blasphemy than to accuse God of making the ultimate terrorist torture chamber where He apparently will vent His frustration and inability to save most of His creatures. Don't you be guilty of such a sin by teaching it or condoning those who do teach it.
v
So why the big deal? Why do I take the time and go into so much detail concerning Bill's book and the Christian doctrine of an eternal hell of torture?
Why? Because Bill's book and this Christian doctrine promote the most damnable heresy on the face of the earth in the history of the world, that's why. People by the millions (billions) have been brainwashed into accepting this obscene and spiritual pornographic smut. I want to totally discredit Bill's entire fabricated evil swill.
To attribute such vile character to the God of creation, the God of our Lord and Saviour, the God of the Holy Scriptures, is the ultimate blasphemy!
v
orthodox Christians do NOT believe that when Jesus was nailed to the cross and died for the sins of the world, that he really died and was dead. No, they think that Jesus' body died, but that Jesus Himself (the real Jesus) [1] Went to hell, or [2] Went to heaven, or [3] Went to paradise--anything but TO THE GRAVE. Only His physical body died and only His physical body was buried, therefore, according to the "souls never die" heresy, Jesus is not the Saviour of the world--the Saviour of World is a CADAVAR!!
Jesus contradicts these lying frauds: "I am He that lives and was DEAD" (Rev. 1:18). On the third day, God the Father did not bring Jesus back from sheol, or hades, or hell, or heaven, or paradise, but rather "God the Father raised Jesus from the DEAD" (Gal. 1:1). They teach such unscriptural heresy because if Jesus was DEAD when He died, then we too are DEAD when we die. And being dead, we don't "go" anywhere--not to heaven, not to paradise, and not to hell.
v
It seems impossible to believe for most Christians, that the Church of God is God's Church, and yet it is at the same time "The Throne of Satan" (Rev. 2:13). Virtually all Christians that have ever lived came into a knowledge of Jesus Christ through the Church. But then they read how that the Church is filled with enemies of God, doctrines of demons, where many spiritual crimes and character flaws are touted as virtues.
v
SATAN'S MINISTERS AND PASTORS APPEAR RIGHTEOUS
"And no marvel; for Satan HIMSELF is transformed into an AN ANGEL OF LIGHT. Therefore it is no great thing if HIS MINISTERS also be transformed as the MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:14-15)
No, Satan is not transformed into a devil in a red suit, with a tail and a pitchfork.
Nor are Satan's ministers transformed into hideously ugly and deformed demons. Satan presents himself to the world as an "Angel of light," and his ministers are seen (yes, Satan's angels can be seen, but not his demons) as "Ministers of righteousness."
v
One day this whole Christian charade will be exposed for the whole world to see.
"Mystery Babylon" will no longer be a mystery to anyone. "For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither anything hid, that shall not be known and come abroad" (Luke 8:17). Satan's ministers will be exposed. Paul shows us an allegory concerning the Church down through the centuries:
"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who is of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all" (Gal. 4:44-26)
In Scripture, the Church is likened to a woman. Jerusalem that is in bondage and Jerusalem that is from above which is free. The fraction of the Church in bondage is a woman who rides a beast: "And the angel said unto me, Wherefore did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carries her..." (Rev. 17:7);
"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning" (Rev. 18:9)
Mystery Babylon is that portion of the Church which has the ministers of Satan as their teachers and pastors. And those whom God is calling to repentance and obedience to Him are admonished to come out of that system:
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, 'Come out of her My people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4)
God's "people" are warned to "come out of" Mystery Babylon the Great. Unless they come out of physical, carnal Jerusalem, they cannot enter into "Jerusalem which is above" which is free, and which is "the mother of us all."
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes we all have come from the church, we need to have gone through it in order to really know it. But once we are released from that prison of deception by God's good grace, should we then and go back and visit it? Is that not like a slap in the face of God for what He has delivered us from?
Yep
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Amen Kat... :)
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Hi largeli,
Yes we all have come from the church, we need to have gone through it in order to really know it. But once we are released from that prison of deception by God's good grace, should we then and go back and visit it? Is that not like a slap in the face of God for what He has delivered us from?
Thanks for the reply Kat,
Actually if I were released from a prison I would certainly hope I would go back and visit those still stuck in the prison. Absolutely. If someone (God in this case) paid for me to get out of prison I would not see it as a slap in that persons (again, Gods) face if I were to go back and visit those who are not yet free... but whom I know someday will be free and will be my brothers and sisters...
If I were the one who freed someone from prison I would not see it as a slap in my face if that someone went back to show love to those still serving their sentences. On the contrary I would interpret their act of love and empathy as appreciation and gratitude for the freedom I provided.
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largeli, I think you are ignoring what is trying to be shown here. It is not that I/we are against the people still in church, we all have family and/or friends there. They are deceived just as we once were and I'm sure some of us are still friends and visit with some we knew from church... we can do that in numerous ways without having to go to church.
What I/we are trying to get across is that the institution - Christendom where they teach heresy and blasphemy God in some or usually many ways every time they meet, now that is a very different story. You seem very defensive about the church, yet Christ spoke out strongly against the scribes and Pharisees (His era, while on earth church leaders). You may defend the church all you like, but it does not change what it is, Mystery Babylon the Great!
Mat 23:13 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door to the kingdom from heaven in people's faces. You don't go in yourselves, and you don't allow those who are trying to enter to go in.
v. 14 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and say long prayers to cover it up. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation!
v. 15 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make a single convert, and when this happens you make him twice as fit for hell (gehenna - judgment) as you are. (ISV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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largeli -
Unless The Lord opens up their understanding - the likely outcome of you going back to your church is that they will hate you and persecute you - unless you keep quiet about the Truths of God imparted to you heart and mind by The Spirit of God.
George.
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Sounds like your congregation is right for you and know this, God has you where you need to be at this point in time.
Craig's post got me thinking about free will. My brother started out a believer in his early twenties, fell in love and married a RC, married in the RC tradition, albeit toting a black bound bible under his hand. He went on to baptize his kids, first communion, confirmation et al and is now firmly entrenched in the establishment/world, completely blinded to any spiritual truth.
So yes, God has us where He wants us to be - no free will there - but we are caused to make choices and we're held accountable for them.
It won't be easy, but you will learn great lessons along the way and the family will draw closer together as you worship in your home. Remember to keep it simple and friendly and fun. God's son Jesus is a fun fellow and very patient with the "little children' including all of us on the forum.
Indianabob's post brought back a rush of memories - all that I yearned to do and ended up doing much much more. I bought an array of bibles for my daughter - kids, adolescents, youth, girls; Christian books, videos, even music - hoping they would bop to Jesus Christ Superhero, Sunday school style :) Till she rebelled. Even our prayer and worship time was forced, more of an exercise - we didn't know how to pray at the time! Now we don't do much of anything, but in the course of just living out our days, I take every opportunity to teach them the Word. Sometimes I use words. What I think I am teaching them the most is that I am fallen, a sinner, so degenerate, that without the grace of God I cannot be saved. While I attended church I couldn't teach them thus, as I was constantly pretending to be a 'saved Christian' on my best behavior, wearing a happy, going-to- heaven mask. Was that difficult! Now here at the epi-sunagoge, or upperoom, I am free to be me, allowing Christ to work his wondrous way in me.
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BT Family:
Thank you all for the encouragement. Last Sunday my family and I gathered for an extending devotion. We studied Agape and Philos by listening to Ray's teaching on Why God Loves Us. Everyone remarked how much they enjoyed studying the scriptures together at home and for once we got to eat lunch at a decent hour!. :-) This week we will be looking at the Foundational Truths teaching. Ray will be our guest again via audio. :-)
I can't thank you all enough for the admonition and warnings. My wife and I are still wrestling with how we respond to all our friends at church. And because I was the worship pastor there for 4 years and had attended for many years before that, I have a lot of friends. But God's grace is greater. We are content to allow the Lord to lead and guide us and not lose heart in the struggle.
On a side note, here are some of the questions I am currently cueing up:
1. eSword: does it have all the resources that Ray cites in his studies?
2. Does anyone have notes from live teaching he gave, especially the ones from the creation conference he gave in Nashville? The transcripts are helpful but the subject matter is so complex I can't completely follow without notes.
Thanks again for everyones responses to this post.
Blessings!
Robby
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Robby, there was a 'hand-out' at the Nashville conference, but it wasn't so much 'notes' on the conference as some notes concerning geology and what not. Other than that, you pretty much have access to what we who were there did. Dennis may have more info on that.
Esword can be used to pull up numerous translations. It can also be used with Bible Dictionaries, English dictionaries, and (perhaps the most useful to me) an exhaustive concordance of the KJV where you can do 'word-studies' from the original languages, see every passage where it was used, etc. You can also download maps, histories, and other bible-study resources, including commentaries....though I would stay away from the latter until you are well-grounded.
I'm really happy for your report.
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largeli, I think you are ignoring what is trying to be shown here. It is not that I/we are against the people still in church, we all have family and/or friends there. They are deceived just as we once were and I'm sure some of us are still friends and visit with some we knew from church... we can do that in numerous ways without having to go to church.
What I/we are trying to get across is that the institution - Christendom where they teach heresy and blasphemy God in some or usually many ways every time they meet, now that is a very different story. You seem very defensive about the church, yet Christ spoke out strongly against the scribes and Pharisees (His era, while on earth church leaders). You may defend the church all you like, but it does not change what it is, Mystery Babylon the Great!
Mat 23:13 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door to the kingdom from heaven in people's faces. You don't go in yourselves, and you don't allow those who are trying to enter to go in.
v. 14 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and say long prayers to cover it up. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation!
v. 15 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make a single convert, and when this happens you make him twice as fit for hell (gehenna - judgment) as you are. (ISV)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Sorry Kat. I don't mean to ignore what you're saying. I think I understand but the problem I'm having is that I don't see how the blasphemy of the church is any worse than say the blasphemy of nationalism for example. Saying 'God bless America' and then rallying for the slaughter of other people is blasphemy no?
I know there's some who claim to have 'come out of her' because they reject church doctrine and don't go to church. But then fail to come out of all the other lies that they live under.
Like I pointed out in some of rays emails and teachings on another thread, Ray showed that you can't be an ambassador for Christ and also adhere to the beliefs of nationalism or vote or support the troops in killing and slaughtering.
It's not so much that I disagree with what you say about the church but I do believe mystery babylon is every false and evil belief. I do believe that mystery babylon is the church but not JUST the church and to 'come out of her' physically would mean removing yourself from the world altogether and not just a church building. We can't physically do that. I think coming out of her means to not be of the world while being in the world.
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You are right about the world being as bad or worse than the church and yes we should obey what Christ said "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you"... but we have to be separate to a degree. No we cannot remove ourselves altogether, but we should not be 'friends' with the world or the church.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
friend 1 : one attached to another by respect or affection 2 : acquaintance 3 : one who is not hostile 4 : one who supports or favors something 5 : a member of the Society of Friends.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I can share my experience about "Attending Church."
God chooses people from all walks of life, and as for me I had already been away from playing Church and organized religion for about twenty two years before ever knowing about Ray Smith.
So when I saw the Bible-Truths web site I had been searching for Truth, and desiring a closer walk with God more sincerely for about a year before that.
No I didn't jump on board with both feet from day one, but it was a gradual process as God showed me that what Ray was teaching was correct according to the scriptures.
The disappointing thing is, my friends and family don't see the things that I accept as the Truth as being the Truth at all.
Where I am right now works for me, were others are at the moment must work for them also.
Who can resist God? no one.
I would ask the question though, what scriptures support the idea that we can continue attending and supporting the local Churches on the corner that teach contrary to the Word of God, when there are so many scriptures that say otherwise?
The vast amount of teachings that God has allowed Ray, Dennis, and those that support BT web site, are not Truths or teachings that are smooth sayings, or for those having itching ears.
Joel
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You are right about the world being as bad or worse than the church and yes we should obey what Christ said "love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you"... but we have to be separate to a degree. No we cannot remove ourselves altogether, but we should not be 'friends' with the world or the church.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
friend 1 : one attached to another by respect or affection 2 : acquaintance 3 : one who is not hostile 4 : one who supports or favors something 5 : a member of the Society of Friends.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
ahhh... I hear ya.
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largeli, I appreciate your perspective. I understand also the points made by everyone else. There isn't anything I can add to the conversation really but as I was reading the thread a thought came up.
How can we as followers of the teachings laid out by Ray Smith be truly free from the evil empire Babylon IF, at the mere mention of it, our lips begin to curl and we put up our arms in a big X as if we are being forced to look upon blasphemous, poisonous scenes sending us into screeching screams of ,,,,,noooooooooooooo not that!!!!!!!
I'd say, we are not free from it at all IF this be the case.
Dang ole silly thoughts, how they enter the mind ya know it can't be stopped.
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Stacey, I think I understand where you are coming from. I have the same 'feelings' about those so hung up on the 'world'...not free if we're still entangled, even in opposition.
On that score, however, I don't completely agree with the statement that the 'world' is worse than the 'church'. It's more complicated than that...and it comes down ultimately to the individual... and maybe that returns it to simplicity.
For an example...I can smile at some ordinary Joe saying he did such-and-such by his own free will because 1. He probably doesn't know and has never thought about what he is saying, and 2. It sure SEEMS like we do. It takes no miracle to 'believe' what feels right. I can't smile at a proselytizer who applies this deception to Spiritual things.
Look...all these things are in the hands of, by the plan of, and for the purposes of God. It ain't always gonna be like it is.
Robby started this thread and later reported that he had begun to teach his own children. May God bless his efforts.
Eph_6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Col_3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
I hope those words have new or more meaning than they did before, Robby.
And this from John, though his 'children' were of all ages:
3Jn_1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
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Dave I don't agree that the world is worse than the church either. But I think it's because the church is part if the world. Mystery babylon the great encompasses the church as well as every other lie we live under. I think for the most part the church is just like any other political group. Christians are political pawns.
Kat gave an analogy of being freed from prison and what it means to return to prison. I think another way to look at it would be the matrix. Not the matrix as in a computer simulation but the matrix being the lies that we are all born under to keep us from knowing the truth. We can be freed from the lies and mental slavery but unlike in the movie.. We can't simply unplug and wake up in another world. We have to finish this life in this world but we can do so while being free because we see that it's all lies. We have to play by the rules of most of the lies but we don't have to believe them. That's how I understand 'come out of her'.
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Could be, Largeli. But there is a VERY practical problem with that observation: One man's 'worldly deception' is another man's 'reasonable conclusion'. I see it everywhere, and trust me, we'd see it here too if we let it.
I do my best with marked failures to NOT get involved with the affairs of the world, nor join in their debates. Because, to me, ultimately it's not about who is RIGHT or WRONG about their 'world-view' or various portions of it, but worldliness itself.
1Jn 2:16,17 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Besides...just because there appear to be two sides to a 'debate', or multiple ways to 'see the world', does not mean that one of them is 'right'. Let GOD be true and EVERY MAN a liar. Be still and know that He is God.
That may be easier for an older fellow than a younger one. I'm getting older, and I have seen too much. And likely you (and everyone else) thinks I'm talking about all those pesky 'other people' who are so, so, so very wrong. ;D
Hopefully you'll never know what I think about EVERYTHING...and the world will pass away.
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Could be, Largeli. But there is a VERY practical problem with that observation: One man's 'worldly deception' is another man's 'reasonable conclusion'. I see it everywhere, and trust me, we'd see it here too if we let it.
Dave I'm not sure I understand, could you give an example? If you don't want to reply here could you pm me?
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What part? The 'one man's 'worldly deception is another man's reasonable conclusion' part? Or the 'we'd see it here too if we let it' part?
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Ya sorry, the one mans deception is another mans reasonable conclusion part. I included the 'we'd see it here too if we let it' because I wasn't sure if that meant you didn't want it discussed on here..
As far as the 'one mans deception is another mans reasonable conclusion' that's where I'm confused. I would think that the man who reached the reasonable conclusion would be deceived but I'm not quite sure I understand what the statement meant.
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I'm talking about worldly issues here. Pick a topic. Pick an issue.
It simply means that two people are going to see the same thing two different ways. Any topic. Any issue. One may think his 'conclusion' is rational and the other person is deceived. The other may think the same thing..and that is the only thing they agree on--the other is deceived.
Any topic, any issue. Twenty people are going to see it twenty different ways--ten may agree with one broad conclusion and ten with another, but among each ten they will not agree 100%. Each one will have 'reason' to think as they do and therefor, think the other ten are 'deceived' and that maybe the other nine in their 'group' are just not as advanced as he/she is.
If I think the moon is made of cheese, then I must think so for a reason. To me, it makes perfect sense and every attempt to dissuade me or educate me will simply involve more and more people in the 'deception' brought by the anti-cheese-moonie folks.. Why, oh WHY can't these people see that the moon is made of cheese?
I'll go on record here with some degree of safety that I actually think the CHEESE-MOONIES are the ones 'deceived'. ;) But what good does that do them if they are already convinced and argument only makes them dig in their heels harder?
On Spiritual matters, Ray didn't 'win me over' with his mountains of evidence and scriptural proofs. I believed in a matter of minutes--after 40 years of questionings to the point (and past the point) of total despair. I didn't need the evidence and scriptural proofs until AFTER that, when that old baptist preacher that lives in my head started trying to shake this 'foolishness' out of me.
And--at it's best--that's one purpose the forum serves---pointing to the mountains and the Scripture. We're not here to 'convince' anybody of anything. Period.
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side note: I may have accidentally deleted someone's post here. Sorry, if I did..
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Hi Dave, I agree with your analysis.
On Spiritual matters, Ray didn't 'win me over' with his mountains of evidence and scriptural proofs. I believed in a matter of minutes--after 40 years of questionings to the point (and past the point) of total despair.
And that's the way it happened for me too. I think it was all those years of questioning, that was a preparation so at a determined moment in our life when the Holy Spirit is put in our minds and then spiritual truth can be revealed and received/understood. Without the Holy Spirit we are just having a physical experience in many varying ways and degrees. In the church they really believe they are having a spiritual experience, but most of us know it's just more human reasoning made out to be faith.
So I'm thinking maybe "worldly deception" and the "reasonable conclusion" are kind of 2 sides have the same coin type thing, until real truth comes in play, then there is a whole new way of looking at everything.
Well that's just my take on this, interesting thought though.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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side note: I may have accidentally deleted someone's post here. Sorry, if I did..
LOL xD
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side note: I may have accidentally deleted someone's post here. Sorry, if I did..
Yet another excuse from the evil dictator mods ;D ;D ;D
Rhys :D :D :D
p.s. your not allowed to delete this post :P
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Hi,
Come out from among them yes as far as accepting the Lords teaching ,
If we take that a step further and say we can not accept friends into our homes from these groups regardless of what those people may or not accept as truth are we to Judge them and say no we cant have fellowship with them .
Then what jesus said and did goes against himself ,
I have a few 1000 friends and know many more i dont care what they belive or not they are my friends , ill go where ever they ask me to or ill just turn up and enjoy my time with them sunday or any day of the week ,
If we are not to entertain people based on a belive then we may as well do what some groups have done go build a high wall around our selfs so no one can get passed may as well be a hermit,
I get the impression of we are all on this earth together and we do need to be friends with each other and is every one going to agree on every subject ,
The Lord knows our hearts and minds , Oh and by the way when we go with the Lord he will go before us and show us where he wonts us for how ever long , we can be used in a way that is for us ,
When we have a closed mind the Lord wont force it open and when a door is opened for us we will be invited in , dont.... close..... others out of your life ,regardless of who they are ,
...noeleena...
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Well said Noeleena,
Here is a passage from John that may give some additional help on this subject.
Indiana Bob
= = =
Jn.17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Their Future Glory
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 “O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
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side note: I may have accidentally deleted someone's post here. Sorry, if I did..
Yet another excuse from the evil dictator mods ;D ;D ;D
Rhys :D :D :D
p.s. your not allowed to delete this post :P
I just hope it wasn't from a cheese-moonie who felt offended.
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I just know this. I am not planning to 'fellowship' with and encourage a murderer while he is murdering. And I'm not planning to drive the car of a burglar while he is burglarizing. I've sinned PLENTY (and still do) AND enjoyed the company of those who do. Don't make me curl your hair, please. I'm also not planning to ''worship" with those who "worship" when I no longer see it as worship.
1. I make this statement NOT because I think I am better. I know FULL WELL that not only can I be seduced to "worship" with my flesh, but I could BE A MURDERER and a burglar! He knows my frame, and so do I!
2. I can (and well may have) had fellowship with a murderer or a burglar when he was NOT doing his thing. Don't know...those weren't my things. And I have plenty of fellowship with "worshipers" when they are not doing their thing.
3. The Kingdom will be full of ex-murderers and ex-burglars and others who understand that it is ONLY the sovereign GRACE of God which prevented them from doing the things of others. It will also be full of ex-worshipers in the flesh and soulishly.
I know.....I know...the kindly people in church don't usually sink to the moral degradation of physical murders, burglars, extortionists, etc. Lord knows my mother doesn't. But if she did, the nature of our fellowship would change.
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I'm talking about worldly issues here. Pick a topic. Pick an issue.
It simply means that two people are going to see the same thing two different ways. Any topic. Any issue. One may think his 'conclusion' is rational and the other person is deceived. The other may think the same thing..and that is the only thing they agree on--the other is deceived.
Any topic, any issue. Twenty people are going to see it twenty different ways--ten may agree with one broad conclusion and ten with another, but among each ten they will not agree 100%. Each one will have 'reason' to think as they do and therefor, think the other ten are 'deceived' and that maybe the other nine in their 'group' are just not as advanced as he/she is.
If I think the moon is made of cheese, then I must think so for a reason. To me, it makes perfect sense and every attempt to dissuade me or educate me will simply involve more and more people in the 'deception' brought by the anti-cheese-moonie folks.. Why, oh WHY can't these people see that the moon is made of cheese?
I'll go on record here with some degree of safety that I actually think the CHEESE-MOONIES are the ones 'deceived'. ;) But what good does that do them if they are already convinced and argument only makes them dig in their heels harder?
On Spiritual matters, Ray didn't 'win me over' with his mountains of evidence and scriptural proofs. I believed in a matter of minutes--after 40 years of questionings to the point (and past the point) of total despair. I didn't need the evidence and scriptural proofs until AFTER that, when that old baptist preacher that lives in my head started trying to shake this 'foolishness' out of me.
And--at it's best--that's one purpose the forum serves---pointing to the mountains and the Scripture. We're not here to 'convince' anybody of anything. Period.
I think I know what you're saying now... at least partly. Correct me if I'm wrong, You're talking about how every person has their own perspective on any of life's issues. There's 7 billion people on earth and no 2 people will see everything exactly the same. One could say there are 7 billion different perspectives, each one containing different opinions and every one of them thinks they are the right one.. I'm taking what you said a couple steps further I think, so forgive me if I'm taking it in a totally different direction then you meant..
So I know that I have opinions and perspectives on things and I understand that all my opinions, world views, and judgments are not necessarily true but I understand that I think and feel like they are true... I mean if I believed that my opinions were not true then I would change them to match what I thought was true.
In Proverbs it says "every man is right in his own eyes" I think that is part of what you're saying yes?
The moon is made out of cheese example though, is a case of deception isn't it? The moon, after all, is not made of cheese no matter how one comes to that conclusion. If one has come to that conclusion then that person has deceived himself isn't that true? It may not be our job to convince him but the fact remains that the moon is not made out of cheese.
Two plus two equals 4. That's a truth. If someone has come to the conclusion that two plus two equals three, then that person is deceived aren't they? Even if the whole world agreed with him. All 7 billion people saying two plus two equals three doesn't make it true. Truth isn't open to variation depending on perspective... or is it in some cases?
My point (I do have a point... I think) is this.. How absolute do you guys a bt want people to be in their "come out of her my people"? Or by what standard are you judging?
I personally know that I have come out of her years before I read anything on this site. I don't need anyone's approval or affirmation that I have or have not, BUT its a good conversation because I have been judged on here in different ways because of my feelings, or non-feelings rather, towards church. Things have been said such as "Church is kindergarden and maybe youll be ready to leave someday" or something close to that... A few times people have made comments such as "when the Lord calls you out" and stuff like that... Its clear that some of the people here think that I'm deceived and blind and still part of Babylon the Great. And that's totally ok it doesn't bother me a bit... Its like Paul said, "I care very little to be judged by you or any human standard and in fact I don't even judge myself! I have One judge and my conscience is clean.. But that doesn't make mean I'm totally right" This is my paraphrase of course..
Ok so if someone has accepted all the teachings on this site and they stop going to church does that mean they've come out of her? What about the fact that this person maybe has a government job? Pays taxes that fund war? Votes? I mean we all pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven but with our actions we perpetuate things being done on earth as they are on earth. My point is that we cant physically stop our hypocrisy. None of us. We can only spiritually discern our hypocrisy and spiritually be successful in coming out of her... hence I don't see an issue with the physical act of being in the same building where people are blaspheming the Lords name... this could be a church service, or a 4th of July party, or just going to work every day couldn't it?
I know some will make a distinction between church blaspheming Gods name and the normal day to day world blaspheming His name by saying, as Ray did, "But the church teaches blasphemy and they know it!" I don't necessarily agree with that... I think its like Dave said in his reply, these people actually believe the moon is made of cheese and trying to convince them otherwise just makes them dig there heels in deeper. I don't believe that these pastors are consciously coming up with ways that they can keep deceiving the flock... they really do believe that what they teach is the truth. But regardless of their good intentions... the moon is not made of cheese and they are deceived.
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Could be, Largeli. But there is a VERY practical problem with that observation: One man's 'worldly deception' is another man's 'reasonable conclusion'. I see it everywhere, and trust me, we'd see it here too if we let it.
Dave I'm not sure I understand, could you give an example? If you don't want to reply here could you pm me?
Largeli, we do see it here. You just need to read all the words. That being said, I can't imagine what is being kept from us.
And no, I won't point anything out, because we're all at a different level of growth.
**Edit***
Actually, I can think of a non volatile example. Look at any locked topic on voting.
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Ask an accountant what 2 + 2 is, and he'll say 4.
Ask a theoretical mathematician what 2 + 2 is, and he'll say approximately 4.
Ask a lawyer what 2 + 2 is, and he'll say, "What do you want it to be?" ;D
Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world. Those who have His Spirit, do what Jesus would do at this time. We pay our taxes because He told us to, we render to Caesar what is Caesar's.
We do not fight or involve ourselves in wars because He said those who take the sword will die by the sword.
We do not vote or involve ourselves in politics because we already have a King Who has our sole allegiance.
And of course, we have nothing to do with false religion, which deceives just about all on the earth except for a small, small few. We cannot abide spiritual idiocy.
That's just the way it is. No compromise with those opposed to the Great King. We take no prisoners. The King Himself will restore all things at the appointed times.
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Largeli, it only matters a little bit what 'standards' BT forum applies. Our 'standards' are in the rules.
Jesus said, 'Be ye perfect, even as your Father is heaven is perfect.' We're not yet.
One of the happiest verses in all scripture to me is, "There is ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM." He is Judge, and all His judgments are RIGHT, because He knows the motives of our hearts. Every individual stands to give account, and every 'work' will be judged, whether good or bad.
"Stopping going to church" may not be the highest 'good work'. Lots of people 'stop going to church' and go full-bore into worldliness. I was one of them. My understanding is, that Ray was too. His people are commanded to come out of her, lest we partake of her plagues. The "plague" I was partaking in was, above all others, hypocrisy, though there were many others. AT THE VERY LEAST, when I left I stopped being a hypocrite. I didn't stop being a sinner, but I stopped 'justifying' it and lying to God and to myself. I stopped trying to save myself.. It was very ugly for a long time.
Oddly, Scripture says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I am learning more and more each day that this scripture is TRUE. It actually works...and that faith also helps me not to partake in the plagues of 'theologizing' the truth, and turning the scripture into dry doctrine.
"Coming out of her" also works. Perhaps not completely immediately, quickly and certainly not painlessly, but it works.
"Where two or more are gathered together in His name, there will He be in their midst." That one is for Robby again. You and your dear wife make TWO.
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Dave I have a question about the 'her' in 'come out of her my people'. Like I said in earlier posts, I agree that it refers to the church to a degree but also refers to the world and worldliness.. In rev 18 after it says 'come out of her' it goes on to describe 'her' plagues. I may be interpreting the rest of rev 18 incorrectly but it describes 'her' after the plagues have come upon her and it says that all the rest of the nations watch the smoke from the fire from afar and it says that they mourn over 'her'. It says the kings and nations mourn 'her' plagues because 'she' used to buy all their stuff and made them rich. It talks about all the goods that she bought which would come by way of ships etc. basically every sailor and ship that got rich from 'her' buying all their merchandise is now going to suffer as a result of 'her' not being in the rich and powerful position that 'she' held before the plagues.
When I read this it sounds like it's describing a nation.. What is the correct way to interpret the versus that describe the plagues as pertaining to the church and not a nation?
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The 'nations' of Christendom conducted the Crusades. The 'nations' of Christendom used the wealth, philosophy, "wisdom" of babylon to build and sustain their power. Empires were built and destroyed on her back. Even today, in this more secular age, the 'god' of the Church is the 'god' of the world...even to atheists! The world knows nothing of the Most High except what the church has said, and taught, and demonstrated.
The world-wide religious establishment is in the world, of the world, informs the world, condemns the world, excuses the world. Every person with every point of view "quotes" the bible to make their point. Babylon the great will fall and the world won't know what to do with itself.
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Relatively speaking we are not all wrong.Ray is right and Joel oesteen,paul washer,pastor mporo are wrong. If Ray was wrong YOU would not be here.
Relatively speaking some here are wrong and others are right especially when we give our opinions in trying to help someone. So don't feel like too bad if your opinions are challenged and proved to be wrong by others. They are not judging you, but are judging your words. They can't judge you anyway because they don't know you on a personal level.
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Relatively speaking we are not all wrong.Ray is right and Joel oesteen,paul washer,pastor mporo are wrong. If Ray was wrong YOU would not be here.
Relatively speaking some here are wrong and others are right especially when we give our opinions in trying to help someone. So don't feel like too bad if your opinions are challenged and proved to be wrong by others. They are not judging you, but are judging your words. They can't judge you anyway because they don't know you on a personal level.
Hi Rinus,
Greetings!
I hope and pray that someday we will judge people and to become a judge. God willing that we will endure up to the end so that we can judge them. :) ;)
For more than three years since i stumbled in this site i did not perform or practice catholicism.
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The 'nations' of Christendom conducted the Crusades. The 'nations' of Christendom used the wealth, philosophy, "wisdom" of babylon to build and sustain their power. Empires were built and destroyed on her back. Even today, in this more secular age, the 'god' of the Church is the 'god' of the world...even to atheists! The world knows nothing of the Most High except what the church has said, and taught, and demonstrated.
The world-wide religious establishment is in the world, of the world, informs the world, condemns the world, excuses the world. Every person with every point of view "quotes" the bible to make their point. Babylon the great will fall and the world won't know what to do with itself.
Thats a good answer. Thanks.
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Dave I like the answer you gave regarding Rev 18 being about the church and Christianity... But Ray said prophecy is dual and sometimes multilayered and he also wrote this about Rev 18..
Not only do our Christian seers and prophets preach "deceits and smooth THINGS," but our news media does likewise. Not only is the news toothless, but when it comes to what is really happening in the world, most Americans are clueless.
"Alas, alas that GREAT CITY Babylon, that MIGHTY CITY! For in one hour is your judgment come" (Rev. 18:10).
Ironically, the South Tower collapsed in just 56 minutes after being impacted. Is God sending us a message?
"And [they] cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!" (Rev. 18:18).
was he suggesting that Rev 18's Babylon is also the USA?
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Dave don't leave me hangin man..
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You'd have to ask Ray. But I believe the US collectively is part of the great religious world order. No study of our history can lead anybody to a different conclusion, imo. From the settlement, to the founding, to the Great Awakening, the Civil War, the Gilded Age, on to the present. If you want to call that 'babylon', I don't think you'd be wrong. But its not the first one, and it well may not be the last one.
Beyond that, don't ask me to discuss 'end-times'. Christianity ruined any 'enjoyment' I get out of those. The times have been 'ending' since Jesus Christ walked the earth as a man. I'm looking less for an end then for a new beginning. These may not be so clearly marked until after we've lived them.
Of course, I could be wrong. I'M not even here to discuss my thoughts.
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Sorry if I gave that impression Dave. I'm not asking you to discuss end times though. For me this discussion has been about the 'come out of her' that everyone invokes whenever someone mentions 'church'.. I'm trying to discuss what exactly the 'her' is in that reference..
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Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Babylon the great is fallen.
ALL NATIONS have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Can all nations come out of THEMSELVES? Whose fornication? HERS! Who is SHE? Babylon the great. SHE is not THEY.
Come out of what? ALL NATIONS? No. Come out of HER.
Joh_17:15 I (Jesus) pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Better?
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Jesus is not a Christian, neither am I.
Which is why I do not attend Christian churches.
Easy peasy.
In Revelations, Jesus just walked among the seven candlesticks (churches); His throne was not there.
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All good Dave... You answered my question with your previous post, reply #65.. In my subsequent reply (reply #66) I wasn't necessarily asking for more clarification. When I read your reply (#65 'don't ask me to discuss end times') I thought maybe I had irritated you by touching on the 'end-times' verse. My reply #66 was just trying to apologize for making it seem like an 'end-times' question and trying to show that it was a 'who is she' question... All tying into the topic of the thread which is attending church... I was pointing out that Ray said prophecy is often dual and I was showing where Ray compared the US and 9/11 to the verse in Rev that references the 'her'.
Everyone reads the 'come out of her' and says the her is the Christian church... That's what Ray showed in his papers and, yes, I see and believe that.. But he also compared or suggested in the towers paper that the 'her' could also relate to the US.
Like I said you answered my question with your reply #65.. I totally appreciate your following reply also though and those verses in 1 corinthians spoke to me.. I actually was reading those verses last week with this very thread/topic in mind, so it is somewhat confirming to me that you posted them.. Thank you!
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well this is a long post I hope this gets read. what i wanted to tell you is we read and pray with our three children just about every night I didn't preach to them but when they asked questions i gave them answers. Now they are grown up each going in the direction the Lord would have them go and God word is planted in their hearts. and that is Good.
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Jesus is not a Christian, neither am I.
Which is why I do not attend Christian churches.
Easy peasy.
In Revelations, Jesus just walked among the seven candlesticks (churches); His throne was not there.
G5546
I consider myself a Christian. God knows. Maybe you are also.
Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)
Acts 11:26 (CLV) and finding him, he led him to Antioch. Now it came that they are gathered a whole year, also, in the ecclesia, and teach a considerable throng. Besides, in Antioch first, the disciples are styled "Christians."
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Jesus is not a Christian, neither am I.
Which is why I do not attend Christian churches.
Easy peasy.
In Revelations, Jesus just walked among the seven candlesticks (churches); His throne was not there.
G5546
I consider myself a Christian. God knows. Maybe you are also.
Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)
Acts 11:26 (CLV) and finding him, he led him to Antioch. Now it came that they are gathered a whole year, also, in the ecclesia, and teach a considerable throng. Besides, in Antioch first, the disciples are styled "Christians."
I believe you when you say you are a Christian. Congratulations. People know who they are.
However, I am not a Christian. I was one once, before Jesus showed me mercy and led me to the wilderness, where He is protecting me for a time, times, and half a time.
What you are ignorant of, is that that not everything in the Scriptures apply to everyone. The Apostles had to grow in grace and knowledge. It is they who formed the great false church too. This church later rejected all of them. This church carried over to the 2nd century A.D. and is still very much with us. It still has that top down organizational structure of Satan. Those in the true Church of the Living God have Jesus as their King and Teacher only. But, I waste my time in speaking of such things.
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well Dave you have my attention I never heard of such and would like to know more about what yu are saying if you wish to share. Jesus is the son of God. How could He be a Christian , that i understand, but I thought being a Christian was being a follower a Christ and by Faith we walk. So what are you if you are not a Christian? blessings peggy
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well Dave you have my attention I never heard of such and would like to know more about what yu are saying if you wish to share. Jesus is the son of God. How could He be a Christian , that i understand, but I thought being a Christian was being a follower a Christ and by Faith we walk. So what are you if you are not a Christian? blessings peggy
Hi Peggy,
I suppose you are referring to my immediately preceding post? If so, I'm John, not Dave.
I am not of the two billion (?) or so people who call themselves Christian. I have no part with them.
I do not attend any church. I am the church, one of a few. I think Ray onetime referred to himself as being a member of the Church of the Living God. That sounds O.K. to me.
However, I'm not really into labels or titles or being a member of organizations.
I consider myself a wanderer and sojourner in the wilderness, waiting for the return of the Great King.
John
P.S. Also, Jesus and I are not Christians because we do not believe in what Christians believe. We believe in the Word of God, which is the Scriptures. Jesus is the living aspect of the Word or Expression or Statement (Greek word Logos) of the invisible God. Ray called Him God's Autobiography, which is a very good English translation of the Greek word Logos. Jesus is the Mighty God, Creator and Savior of all. He is in me and gives me Life and rules in the Temple of my innermost being, what the Scriptures call the Heart.
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Jesus is the son of God. How could He be a Christian , that i understand, but I thought being a Christian was being a follower a Christ and by Faith we walk. So what are you if you are not a Christian? blessings peggy
The Apostles did not call themselves "Christians", they were called "Christians" by pagans. Christ never called himself a Christian, nor did He call his followers Christians. The apostles called each other "brethren", "disciples", ""servants", "believers", "followers", "the faithful", "the elect", "the chosen ones", "the separated ones", and so on - not Christians.
Those of the royal priesthood are not Christians, nor do they refer to themselves as Christians and certainly do not partake in the affairs of Christendom. They don't attend their "churches", they don't engage in their politics - they thoroughly reject all of its teachings.
To some this may just be a matter of semantics. One may say they are a "true Christian" and a "true Christian" has nothing in common with those in Christendom. Once again, if Jesus never called his own disciples "Christians" and the apostles never called each other "Christians", then why would anyone want to use a term that was coined by pagans to describe themselves? There is only one reason - they still have not "come out of her my people".
Tradition: a doctrine believed to have divine authority though not in the scriptures, in particular. (Oxford's Dictionary)
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Followers of ho christos = Greek for "the anointed one"
Hebrew = ha mashiyach or "the anointed one"
So then we are followers of the man Jesus, the anointed one of God.
There is lots more to read if one is interested.
Indiana Bob
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Followers of ho christos = Greek for "the anointed one"
Hebrew = ha mashiyach or "the anointed one"
So then we are followers of the man Jesus, the anointed one of God.
There is lots more to read if one is interested.
Indiana Bob
He is much more than a man, I-Bob, regardless of the teachings of the Concordant Publishing Concern.
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
Underlines are mine.
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Followers of ho christos = Greek for "the anointed one"
Hebrew = ha mashiyach or "the anointed one"
So then we are followers of the man Jesus, the anointed one of God.
There is lots more to read if one is interested.
Indiana Bob
I agree.
A follower is one who follows and believes in someone. I believe in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Call me what you want, but that is what I believe.
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1st Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Joel
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1st Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
Joel
1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf."
Peter did not label the followers of Christ a "Christian" in the passage. Read it again, very carefully. He said they were to be "as a Christian." The word as means "like or similar to," but it does not mean one is that word. For example:
Genesis 49:9, "...he couched as a lion," does not mean Judah was a lion when he couched!
Exodus 15:5, "...they sank into the bottom as a stone," does not mean they were a stone when they sank.
Matthew 17:20, "...If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed," does not mean faith is a mustard seed.
And, therefore:
1 Peter 4:16, "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian," does not mean man is a Christian when they suffer.
When someone is "as" something else, it does not mean one is that something. It means we are similar, in some way, to that name, but we are not literally that name. The heathens are the ones who called the followers of Christ "Christians" (Acts 11:26; 26:28). When Peter was referring to the title "Christian, " it is in the context of suffering, and is in reference to the name as imposed upon them by their enemies.
Christ himself never called His disciples Christians - Never. In the Revelation of Jesus Christ, He never refers to the saints, elect, etc as Christians. The word "Christian" is only used 3 times in Scripture - twice by pagans and the above passage. If members of this forum want to use this term to describe themselves then so be it, but it is a term passed down through the traditions of men and is not supported by Scripture.
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True JFK, Jesus is much more and that is key to our future.
However, is it also key to our future to understand that "since Jesus is a man anointed of God" that we too may in future be anointed of God and stand with Jesus, commune with Jesus because we shall be like him and see him as he IS.
Paul's references to the "man Jesus" are important to reflect upon as we strive to understand more deeply how these things can be, that is our future life as God's sons.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
= = =
So then is it not important to recognize that God shall raise us to the same state that Lord Jesus now occupies? That of true sons of the ONE God...
Subject to correction; Indiana Bob
Followers of ho christos = Greek for "the anointed one"
Hebrew = ha mashiyach or "the anointed one"
So then we are followers of the man Jesus, the anointed one of God.
There is lots more to read if one is interested.
Indiana Bob
He is much more than a man, I-Bob, regardless of the teachings of the Concordant Publishing Concern.
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. Titus 2:13
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6
Underlines are mine.
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So if the Gestapo are rounding up "Christians" to haul off to FEMA camps and they go door to door in your neighborhood asking people if they're Christians I guess y'all have nothing to worry about huh.. Convenient.
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We're not proselytizing, just witnessing by our conduct.
"Be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove."
What ever happens to be our fate is in God's hands.
However there are some guidelines for sharing our faith...
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Mat 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Mat 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Mat 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
Mat 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Mat 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
= = =
This is the attitude that I recommend. Indiana Bob
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Hi bob
I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
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Hi bob
I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Unlike some people (who out of politeness I won't name) I can provide two scriptures (witnesses) for all my beliefs.
The two Scriptures below came from Ray's "Lake of Fire" group of articles, which would be a good thing for some to read.
In Revelations 1:13, Jesus just walks among the seven lamp stands, the church. He does not rule this church or live with them.
On the other hand, in Revelations 2:13, we find that Satan not only dwells in the church, but his throne is there, he rules the church.
I am not a Christian because I am not a member of the church ruled by Satan.
Also, Jesus said that the many would be deceived. Jesus said His true Church would be only a very few in this age.
So, that is why I am not a Christian, very simple. Also, I do not fear a holocaust, or disease epidemic, or falling sycamore tree ( ;D ) or numerous other things that the simple minded fear.
Jesus is my shield and protector. I fear nothing. He that is for me is greater than anything against me.
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Hi Largeli,
Maybe there is a miscommunication of sorts. Let me try to open up my thoughts a little.
When Hitler went after the Jews of Germany they were easy targets to identify and could not even flee the coming threat if they were aware of it.
Christians of Europe and America who attend church and wear silver crosses and keep religious tracts in their homes are in a similar situation. They are marked, so to speak, for their outward religious affiliations and invitation to the public at large to become members.
We on the other hand are not marked by our public efforts to seek new members and financial support for our cause and are therefore not noticed as a threat to those who hate God.
I do not believe that God expects the called out and elect believers to form a denomination and publicly demonstrate against secular sins or government interference in this day and age the way many christian church groups do.
If there were a government sponsored search for true believers in this nation how would they find the thousands of true believers who study and read informative web sites like this one and choose to mind their own business by living as an example among their neighbors and working diligently to obey God in their own personal lives.
They are growing in grace and knowledge and that is enough. Their "work" is for God to do a work in them, which is happening in their daily lives.
I suppose that my basic premise is that God does not need for us to expose and teach our sincere beliefs to others for their approval and acceptance so much as God desires for us to recognize how much we need God in our lives and to seek to live for God and submit to God in our daily lives.
God can call others to see and believe when God is ready for them to respond. God can open their minds in an instant.
In a manner of speaking then we are in training for a future work of God in the world and not expected to begin that work before we are fully prepared in this life.
If we are chosen; then it may be chosen to learn as diligent students among ourselves and not to graduate to become teachers before we are fully prepared.
Not to "excessively" advertise our sacred knowledge and beliefs in order to encourage other to join with us, but rather to keep or hold these pearls of understanding with care and love and not to cast them before swine to be trampled under foot.
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6).
So then, I'm not hiding from the general public the pearls I've been given out of fear of persecution, not entirely anyway, but I'm also not seeking martyrdom either.
Hope this will add light and some understanding to my previous comments.
Indiana Bob
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I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Give two witnesses as to why you call yourself a Christian.
I'm going through the fire now - I could care less about physically dying or being rounded up in a FEMA camp. It's strange that you think that because I don't refer to myself as a "Christian" that I'm doing so to avoid a potential "Christian holocaust". Your fear is palpable.
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I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Give two witnesses as to why you call yourself a Christian.
I'm going through the fire now - I could care less about physically dying or being rounded up in a FEMA camp. It's strange that you think that because I don't refer to myself as a "Christian" that I'm doing so to avoid a potential "Christian holocaust". Your fear is palpable.
I live in Christ and Christ lives in me.
Joh_6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
I obey Christ. If I live in Kentucky I obey its laws.
If I live in Kentucky, I am a Kentuckian.
If I live in Christ I am a Christian. No more comments from me on this thread.
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A Christian is someone who's god is Christ. A Christian is someone who is of Christ. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ.
You guys are very fond of the term The Great False Church, which by the way, is not found in scripture. Ok so if there's a Great False Church then its members are false Christians. Just like a wolf in sheep's clothing is a false sheep. But the real sheep are still sheep. They don't go around claiming that they are no longer sheep just because the wolves have hi-jacked their name and identity. Just like the real Christians (those who are of Christ) are still Christians.
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Hi bob
I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Unlike some people (who out of politeness I won't name) I can provide two scriptures (witnesses) for all my beliefs.
The two Scriptures below came from Ray's "Lake of Fire" group of articles, which would be a good thing for some to read.
In Revelations 1:13, Jesus just walks among the seven lamp stands, the church. He does not rule this church or live with them.
On the other hand, in Revelations 2:13, we find that Satan not only dwells in the church, but his throne is there, he rules the church.
I am not a Christian because I am not a member of the church ruled by Satan.
Also, Jesus said that the many would be deceived. Jesus said His true Church would be only a very few in this age.
So, that is why I am not a Christian, very simple. Also, I do not fear a holocaust, or disease epidemic, or falling sycamore tree ( ;D ) or numerous other things that the simple minded fear.
Jesus is my shield and protector. I fear nothing. He that is for me is greater than anything against me.
Well... I am simple minded, you'll get no argument from me on that. I am a loser for sure. I wont deny any of that.
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I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Give two witnesses as to why you call yourself a Christian.
I'm going through the fire now - I could care less about physically dying or being rounded up in a FEMA camp. It's strange that you think that because I don't refer to myself as a "Christian" that I'm doing so to avoid a potential "Christian holocaust". Your fear is palpable.
I never said that you were trying to avoid a potential Christian holocaust.... All I said was that avoiding a Christian holocaust is a convenience you can enjoy in the event that persecution comes to Christians. I applaud your human reasoning as being very clever and convenient.
Two witnesses? Don't have em. Just like I don't have two witnesses to support why I, as (see what I did there with the word 'as'? ;)) someone who was born in America, refer to myself as an American.
My fear is palpable. Ok. If by fear you mean F.E.A.R Feeling Excited And Ready, then thank you very much.
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Once again, if Jesus never called his own disciples "Christians" and the apostles never called each other "Christians", then why would anyone want to use a term that was coined by pagans to describe themselves?
Pagans coined the term to describe themselves? The pagans coined the term, not to describe themselves but to describe the disciples of Christ.. Per the two witnesses in Acts.
When a Muslim extremist goes through a town in Iraq asking people if they're Christians or not, he is asking whether or not Jesus Christ is the god you worship. That's all he cares about when he asks if you're a Christian. Whether you consider yourself a "called out, chosen, elect" follower of Christ who has nothing to do with worldly Christians or not doesn't matter. But again, you can answer "nope, not me" and avoid persecution. I'm not saying it's wrong Nathan just convenient. You have your reasoning and I don't agree but that doesn't make it wrong. I may be just a simple minded, blind and weak person who doesn't yet understand the deep truths that you do.. You and JFK have been at this for a lot longer then me I'm sure.
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Here is a little something from Ray.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4320.0.html
His last sentence is the main reason a few of us here do not call ourselves "Christian".
For the few of you who would be interested, in the index of Ray's emails, there is an entire section on "Church", which may be instructive.
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Pagans coined the term to describe themselves? The pagans coined the term, not to describe themselves but to describe the disciples of Christ.. Per the two witnesses in Acts.
When a Muslim extremist goes through a town in Iraq asking people if they're Christians or not, he is asking whether or not Jesus Christ is the god you worship. That's all he cares about when he asks if you're a Christian. Whether you consider yourself a "called out, chosen, elect" follower of Christ who has nothing to do with worldly Christians or not doesn't matter. But again, you can answer "nope, not me" and avoid persecution. I'm not saying it's wrong Nathan just convenient. You have your reasoning and I don't agree but that doesn't make it wrong. I may be just a simple minded, blind and weak person who doesn't yet understand the deep truths that you do.. You and JFK have been at this for a lot longer then me I'm sure.
The term was used by pagans as an insult. If you want to use that term to describe yourself, that's fine, but the point I was trying to make was the origin of the term "Christian" was coined by pagans as an insult. That point aside, I do not wish to affiliate myself with Christendom in any way, which is another reason I do not refer to myself as Christian. Regardless, what one calls themselves is irrelevant - all that matters is whether or not ones heart is circumcised, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God (Rom 2:29).
I suffer persecution NOW from many CHRISTIANS, especially those of my own family - my father and brother are both pastors and despise my beliefs. All those who live godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12) NOW, yet you keep talking about persecution in future terms, as if to say when the day comes when Christians are persecuted in this country (ie rounded up and slaughtered) you will call yourself a Christian and face persecution even unto death.
I die daily NOW, I am persecuted NOW, I am going through the fire NOW and if and when the day comes that I must die physically at the hand of a persecutor, so be it. All is of God. Your thought process on this topic clearly shows that you are yet carnal - you view persecution only in physical terms, which, by the way, may never come in your/my lifetime, however ALL who live godly in Christ Jesus face persecution - mediate on that.
I don't celebrate Christmas either - am I doing that as well to avoid persecution? I can tell you that I never really faced any type of persecution until I stopped referring to myself as a Christian, stopped believing all of the doctrines of Christendom, stop supporting "Christian politics", stopped supporting "Christian warmongering", stopped hating Muslim and truly came "out of her" (Rev 18:4).
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In my vivid fantasy-life--if the sword were on my neck--I would pray for the guy, forgive him, because he can't do any different without the grace of God on him, love him in whatever ways were possible, preach good news to him, and rejoice that I had been counted worthy to suffer for His name's sake.
Peter, however, walked and lived with Christ for 3 and 1/2 years, but denied Him at the end--even though that wasn't the end for Peter. So I reckon if the time should come when a literal blade is on my neck, I'll do what the Lord said I would do. Life is full of choices, and no situation is so narrow that there aren't other things to consider--the only people in the room may be me and him, but maybe not. I've been told not to 'plan' on what to say if I'm dragged before the council. It's best to 'plan' that what is in my heart overflows--because that's exactly what's going to happen anyway.
Nathan, your list will get you hated where I come from too.
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I'm not really following this thread but I wanted to just chime in to what Dave said:
Exodus 4:12 "Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say."
I've always loved this next verse and have never forgotten it.
Matthew 10:19-20 "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."
Luke 21:14-15 "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."
Luke 12:11-12 "And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."
Love it! :)
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A Christian is someone who's god is Christ. A Christian is someone who is of Christ. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ.
I dont see anything wrong with this - and there are two witnesses ...
I suppose the difference would be those who Do what Jesus said to do and those who don't yet call themselves the same.
Who do You say I am ?
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Pagans coined the term to describe themselves? The pagans coined the term, not to describe themselves but to describe the disciples of Christ.. Per the two witnesses in Acts.
When a Muslim extremist goes through a town in Iraq asking people if they're Christians or not, he is asking whether or not Jesus Christ is the god you worship. That's all he cares about when he asks if you're a Christian. Whether you consider yourself a "called out, chosen, elect" follower of Christ who has nothing to do with worldly Christians or not doesn't matter. But again, you can answer "nope, not me" and avoid persecution. I'm not saying it's wrong Nathan just convenient. You have your reasoning and I don't agree but that doesn't make it wrong. I may be just a simple minded, blind and weak person who doesn't yet understand the deep truths that you do.. You and JFK have been at this for a lot longer then me I'm sure.
The term was used by pagans as an insult. If you want to use that term to describe yourself, that's fine, but the point I was trying to make was the origin of the term "Christian" was coined by pagans as an insult. That point aside, I do not wish to affiliate myself with Christendom in any way, which is another reason I do not refer to myself as Christian. Regardless, what one calls themselves is irrelevant - all that matters is whether or not ones heart is circumcised, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God (Rom 2:29).
I suffer persecution NOW from many CHRISTIANS, especially those of my own family - my father and brother are both pastors and despise my beliefs. All those who live godly in Christ Jesus suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12) NOW, yet you keep talking about persecution in future terms, as if to say when the day comes when Christians are persecuted in this country (ie rounded up and slaughtered) you will call yourself a Christian and face persecution even unto death.
I die daily NOW, I am persecuted NOW, I am going through the fire NOW and if and when the day comes that I must die physically at the hand of a persecutor, so be it. All is of God. Your thought process on this topic clearly shows that you are yet carnal - you view persecution only in physical terms, which, by the way, may never come in your/my lifetime, however ALL who live godly in Christ Jesus face persecution - mediate on that.
I don't celebrate Christmas either - am I doing that as well to avoid persecution? I can tell you that I never really faced any type of persecution until I stopped referring to myself as a Christian, stopped believing all of the doctrines of Christendom, stop supporting "Christian politics", stopped supporting "Christian warmongering", stopped hating Muslim and truly came "out of her" (Rev 18:4).
Nathan. Not that I care brother, I really don't. It honestly doesn't bother me at all, BUT I just want to point out that when you read posts that someone writes on a discussion board, you are getting a very teeny tiny glimpse into someone's thought process... Some people on here are very good at articulating their thoughts and others like myself are not so good.. I am simple minded and also wont deny that I am yet carnal as we all are including yourself. Perhaps I am a lot more carnal than yourself. Perhaps not. I wont be the judge of that though. So when you say things like, "Your thought process clearly shows.." or when you state something about me as fact, such as "you view persecution only in physical terms," You are bearing false witness about me... which, like I said, doesn't bother me a bit even if I know what you are saying is not true. I don't fault you nor blame you and in fact I'm pretty sure we all assume things about one another when reading comments on here, but when you state your assumptions as facts then its bearing false witness.
As far as you stating that I only view persecution in future terms and in the form of physical dying, well it is true that that is the example I am giving on this thread but it doesn't mean that I only view martyrdom as the only form of persecution. However, you don't know where I live do you? For all you know I could be typing this from Iraq or Syria where physical persecution isn't a fantasy but a daily reality. For the record though I am not typing this from the middle east.
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Nathan. Not that I care brother, I really don't. It honestly doesn't bother me at all, BUT I just want to point out that when you read posts that someone writes on a discussion board, you are getting a very teeny tiny glimpse into someone's thought process... Some people on here are very good at articulating their thoughts and others like myself are not so good.. I am simple minded and also wont deny that I am yet carnal as we all are including yourself. Perhaps I am a lot more carnal than yourself. Perhaps not. I wont be the judge of that though. So when you say things like, "Your thought process clearly shows.." or when you state something about me as fact, such as "you view persecution only in physical terms," You are bearing false witness about me... which, like I said, doesn't bother me a bit even if I know what you are saying is not true. I don't fault you nor blame you and in fact I'm pretty sure we all assume things about one another when reading comments on here, but when you state your assumptions as facts then its bearing false witness.
As far as you stating that I only view persecution in future terms and in the form of physical dying, well it is true that that is the example I am giving on this thread but it doesn't mean that I only view martyrdom as the only form of persecution. However, you don't know where I live do you? For all you know I could be typing this from Iraq or Syria where physical persecution isn't a fantasy but a daily reality. For the record though I am not typing this from the middle east.
I realize that a forum/discussion board only gives a tiny glimpse into someone's thought process, but when you say that those who choose to not call themselves "Christians" are doing so to avoid physical persecution, that shows where your thought process is on this particular topic, otherwise you wouldn't have made that statement - that's not bearing false witness. Those that call themselves Christians are some of the biggest persecutors on the planet, but I would not go so far as to say that you are a persecutor because you call yourself a Christian.
So, when the day comes when men come knocking at my door asking me if I'm a Christian so they can take me to the executioner, I will say, by Christian do you mean, do I hate my enemies, do I believe that the vast majority of humanity will burn in a fiery hell for all eternity, do I believe that only a few who believe like me are saved after saying an 11 second prayer, do I believe that the physical state of Israel is the Israel of God, do I believe in a secret rapture where I get to avoid "the great tribulation", do I believe in a God who tells me to love my enemies while He hates His, do I believe in the Savior of the world who failed at His mission - is that what you mean by Christian? Then, NO, I'm not a Christian. --- at this point the men cry blasphemy, rend their garments and say "come with us"! "Who's us", I say - "we're Christians"!
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So, when the day comes when men come knocking at my door asking me if I'm a Christian so they can take me to the executioner, I will say,
Hello Nathan,
I wonder when and if that day comes here in America, if we just won’t be arrested. If they have to ask they already know who you are.
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Hi friends,
Just a short comment about persecution.
If your work, as you view it, is not finished then persecution can be a terrible burden to have to live with and requires the strength that only God's spirit can provide. A challenge to be sure.
However, if persecution means being arrested and killed, by whatever means then our fight is over and we have only blessings in the future life to contemplate.
Even if we are not one of the elect, the future judgment by our loving and just heavenly Father in an environment in which the Lord Jesus rules, is much to be preferred than remaining alive in this present environment where confusion and hatred rules. 8) 8) :)
Indiana Bob
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in an environment in which the Lord Jesus rules, is much to be preferred than remaining alive in this present environment where confusion and hatred rules. 8) 8) :)
Indiana Bob
Hello Bob,
Much preferred indeed, that will be outright awesome when Christ reigns. :)
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Hi bob
I don't know if your last post was in response to my post but if it was then I think you misunderstood my comments. Or maybe I am misunderstanding yours.
I was not referring to proselytizing. I was responding to posts by JFK and Nathan which give very impressive, clever and convenient human arguments for why they're not "Christians".
I was noting the fact that the human reasoning behind they're arguments would allow them to claim that they're not "Christians" in the event of a "Christian" holocaust.
Unlike some people (who out of politeness I won't name) I can provide two scriptures (witnesses) for all my beliefs.
The two Scriptures below came from Ray's "Lake of Fire" group of articles, which would be a good thing for some to read.
In Revelations 1:13, Jesus just walks among the seven lamp stands, the church. He does not rule this church or live with them.
On the other hand, in Revelations 2:13, we find that Satan not only dwells in the church, but his throne is there, he rules the church.
I am not a Christian because I am not a member of the church ruled by Satan.
Also, Jesus said that the many would be deceived. Jesus said His true Church would be only a very few in this age.
So, that is why I am not a Christian, very simple. Also, I do not fear a holocaust, or disease epidemic, or falling sycamore tree ( ;D ) or numerous other things that the simple minded fear.
Jesus is my shield and protector. I fear nothing. He that is for me is greater than anything against me.
[u]I am a loser for sure.[/u] I wont deny any of that.
I don’t agree with that statement brother Largeli, what you are is a human being just like any other human being, being made in the image of God. That makes you a winner :)
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Not sure why this thread came to mind today while at work but it did, I was thinking, you must go to church, we all have to go to church in order to come out of her my people.
You cannot come out of what you never been in. :)