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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Mike Gagne on October 25, 2014, 02:01:00 AM
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? The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect? Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000? Can we get the truth of this number from the word?
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? The number of those who are sealed , 144.000 , does LRay talk on this number? Is that the number of how many are the elect? Is this a literal number? Can numbers be symbols? If we can't add or take away would that make this number mean what it says 144.000? Can we get the truth of this number from the word?
Hey Mike,
This is not literal. Remember revelations was "SIGNIFIED" to John and that Christ's words are "SPIRIT."
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
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If the number itself isn't literal, how else can it be used unlike words?
Like the lake of fire not being literal to physically torture or burn, we can still see the properties of fire.
But what about a number? If the amount itself doesn't matter than why not just say 5 or 6? What can a number not taken as a number represent? Another number? Words?
I agree though, why would it matter the number? If its just the elect it seems small, but that doesn't say much either. There's the other group that no one knows the number....seems like a different group.
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Numbers Im finding out are most important (everything in the word is)
Perhaps consider/ponder, 12 tribes forming all israel - 12x12=?
1Ki_18:31; Luk_22:30; Jam_1:1; Rev_7:4-8, Rev_21:12
12 stones,12 disciples,12 Pillars etc
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144
Maybe this number is another of God's mysteries or spiritual secrets that God hold in His own mind until the time is right to reveal it. Then, after it is revealed it will make perfect sense. 1 Cor 2:10
It is there to tease us a little and teach patience...
Bob
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Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
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When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you all for your replies, Kat what you posted was very helpful , 144.000 sounds like a real number and I am okay with it. Anyhow I dont think they will be counting each other and I also don't think that the number will be more or less! I am greatful for this site and all the post that everyone shares! 😀
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The way I see it God is the Supreme architect, and he also is the ultimate perfectionist in all things.
God has used many numbers throughout the entire Bible.
Some are to be taken literal and others are symbolic.
Sometimes there is an explanation as to what the numbers represent, The 144,00 in Revelations 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Is the 144,000 a literal number? Is the seven thousand God refers to in his conversation with Elijah in 1st Kings a literal number? 1st Kings 19:18 Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
Joel
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Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
These are the elect (sealed) who do not have any part, (fornicate) with The Great Whore (the church system/world system) "carnal Beings" the walking dead ....
"Those who come out of Her" ... Those led by the Spirit not the flesh -
12000 sealed x 12 tribes
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http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html -----------------------
LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?
In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.
The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.
Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible
that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2607.0.html ------
Dear Matt:
The book of Revelation is a book "signified" with SYMBOLS. And the words of Jesus are "SPIRIT" (I John 6:63). And it is filled with signs and metaphors. None of these things are literal.
The Seven Churches are not literally seven. The 24 elders are not literally 24. The 144,000 are not literally 144,000. The 1000 years is not literally a thousand years. These are ALL symbols. The Lake of Fire is neither a literal lake or literal fire.
And your statement: "the 'saved in this lifetime, i.e. called and chosen but not elect' are those who merely populate the millennial kingdom" is bogus. There is no such thing as "called AND chosen, but NOT elect." The called and chosen ARE THE ELECT. I wish that I could tell you that you are among the chosen elect, but that is something that I do not know. God knows those who are His, but no one else does. Therefore, it behooves us all to do diligence in our walk of faith.
God be with you,
Ray
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http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2607.0.html ------
Dear Matt:
The book of Revelation is a book "signified" with SYMBOLS. And the words of Jesus are "SPIRIT" (I John 6:63). And it is filled with signs and metaphors. None of these things are literal.
The Seven Churches are not literally seven. The 24 elders are not literally 24. The 144,000 are not literally 144,000. The 1000 years is not literally a thousand years. These are ALL symbols. The Lake of Fire is neither a literal lake or literal fire.
Ray
Jehovah's Witnesses believed that the 144,000 was a literal number and kept a running count of those who qualified. :o When I was drawn to BT, it didn't take long for me to let go of those old beliefs.
René
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Good stuff everyone and thank you! So it's safe to say that it could be a literal number and it is also safe to say that it could be a symbolic number? Romans 11:25 refers to when the full number of the Gentiles comes to Christ , is this a reference to the elect?, and if so would it suggest that there is a specific number to come in? Why I believe this number is 144.000 is because of this scripture....And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person’s share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book. (Revelation 22:18-19 NLT)... This number really never meant anything to me before my coming out of Babyalon, but me and a brother think this is a literal number and I came here because to see if it was symbolic someone here might have a explanation of what it symbolizes...thank you all... P.S Rene I am not a Jehovah's witness, when they used to come to my door before I was called I think I scared them! 👹 lol,Anyhow I am glad even those who aren't the elect will end up in Gods Kingdom!! 😊
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Mike, there is a lot of symbolism in that number, so yes it is a symbolic number and as Ray had explained, symbols are never literal or that is not the literal number of elect in the first resurrection.
Now the Scripture you referred to in Rom. 11 may very well be referring to the elect... God most certainly knows the exact number of elect there will be, "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'" (Isa 46:10). My own opinion is that I don't see how it could be that very number.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat
Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
in this quote LRay says the the 144.000 will have honours and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ , I was thinking he was quoting this number as literal and then in your second last post LRay says this number is not a literal number, I am so confused!! Lol I have stated it as a literal number, I see that there are opinions on this number even in this thread and I think they are all good opinions! I guess I was looking for either a explanation on the meaning of the symbol or the meaning of literal number. I guess if the book is a book that's is signified then I will have to believe it is a symbolic number.
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Hi Kat
Hi Mike,
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000 is 12 times 12 a thousand times, 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
in this quote LRay says the the 144.000 will have honours and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ , I was thinking he was quoting this number as literal and then in your second last post LRay says this number is not a literal number, I am so confused!! Lol I have stated it as a literal number, I see that there are opinions on this number even in this thread and I think they are all good opinions! I guess I was looking for either a explanation on the meaning of the symbol or the meaning of literal number. I guess if the book is a book that's is signified then I will have to believe it is a symbolic number.
Dear Mike,
I don't believe ray ever used that number as if its literal. The 144,000 is symbolic for the elect. When ray uses that number, hes seeing beyond just the literal value--the mathematical number. This is how we compare spiritual with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God [Receives not the WORD, receives not the UNDERSTANDING of the 144,000]: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The scriptures are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
You have to see beyond the literal if you are to get to the meat of the word.
1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
We have already shown you that Christ's words are spirit and that revelation is the revelation of CHRIST that was SIGNIFIED (To use symbols) to john. Now you also know that to discern the word of God you have to compare spiritual. This is a perfect match for:
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
I wonder what this means... "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth" (Revelation 11:3)
Hmm.... is that a literal two people who will prophesy for a literal 1260 days?
God bless,
Alex
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Mike I think the 144,000 could be considered a title just as, the chosen elect, the body of Christ, sheep, branches of the vine, the temple of the Holy Spirit, the bride of Christ, New Jerusalem, etc. is... I also think they are the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders (Rev 5:6-10) are as well. Lots of titles and lots of symbolism.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Alex! You can spiritually discern this number? Then please explain! Any spiritual discernment LRay had he explained! Please explain it to me! Show me how you compare this this number spiritually with spiritually? Please! I think most of us who are new here only know what we know because of what we read on LRays web sites! Seeing how you seem to know please explain your discernment on this? Thank you! Much needed.
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Alex this is Lrays statement taking from the post Kat posted!......That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
.... Okay , that seems like he's using it literally! I am not a educated man but it sure sounds literal in that statement! If your trying to knock me down posting those scriptures that you seem to be saying that I am a baby on milk or maybe I am not spiritual man but a natural man, that's fine I will forgive you , but is it I who is still carnal? ........"Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed LEST HE FALL" (I Cor. 10:12).
May God bless you Alex
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Alex this is Lrays statement taking from the post Kat posted!......That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
.... Okay , that seems like he's using it literally! I am not a educated man but it sure sounds literal in that statement! If your trying to knock me down posting those scriptures that you seem to be saying that I am a baby on milk or maybe I am not spiritual man but a natural man, that's fine I will forgive you , but is it I who is still carnal? ........"Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed LEST HE FALL" (I Cor. 10:12).
May God bless you Alex
Mike,
I see that this is a very difficult topic. I was not calling YOU carnal but rather showing you that if all you see is the physical literal number then you are not getting the real meaning behind it because God tells us by the apostles that this is all the natural carnal man receives and we know that the natural man doesn't understand these things.
Now I don't know you well enough to discern the condition of your heart but you condemn yourself when you interpret my words--an attempt at helping you understand--as an attack or judgment upon you.
We were all babes at some point and in many areas I still consider myself a babe. Its not meant to be a negative thing if God is dragging you. It just means there is more to learn.
Anyway, I do not ask God to bless those who are carnal. I do not pray for those who are not my brothers and sisters. I don't ask God to bless them nor the called nor the world. So I think you have interpreted my attempt to help you in the wrong way.
Everything points back to Christ in the end. Kat offered some great answers to what the number spiritually means, as did Ian with his pointing out of the 12000 from each tribe in revelation (12000x12000 =144000). Remember Israel had twelve sons which later became twelve tribes and whom comprised the Israel of God. Today, who is the Isreal of God?? We are.
1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel--all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him."
Romans 11:4-5 "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."
Isaiah 37:32 For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.
This, and many other witnesses, testify to the 144,000.
In Christ,
Alex
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here is another scripture (parable)pertaining to what the sealed or elect's function is...and what % God will use...
Jdg 7:7 The LORD said to Gideon, "I will use the 300 men who lapped the water like a dog. I will use them to save you, and I will allow you to defeat the Midianites. Let the other men go home."
I'm beginning to notice that This "Whore" (who we are to come out of, if we are to be SEALED) tries to/often does, seduce me and its virtually every minute of this life, not just as what happened to our Lord (literally) Satan tested Jesus on 3 literal occasions however each of these tests cover many multiple things, although we read about turning stones into bread (1 thing) the meaning is far greater or has many "tentacles"if I can put it like that.
Not to long ago I was in a state of "Lord what if I have got all this stuff wrong(you put a lying spirit in me) and I am really going to a literal Hell"Or what If we just die anyway and become dust and vanish ??
This seductive spirit must be told to "Get behind me" if it cannot give me 2-3 witnesses and if the interpretation is literal or satisfies the flesh (carnal).Now multiply this by several hundred attacks/thoughts a day and covering all Lust and all pride issues one has to deal with, see what I mean - its relentless.
Now one can get an Idea of what it takes to be part of the elect.(what it takes to pass/overcome) what it takes to "come out of her" ITS IMPOSSIBLE with man
I cannot comment on the exact number of how many literal elect there are going to be - we work this out by a process called "Fear and trembling".
I'm thinking 144 000,00 Is a "minute" number of people in relation to ALL who have ever lived and All who are still living so,In context of the Many and the FEW, 144 000 sounds about right but I only have, as yet a LITERAL understanding of this number In Rev 7
What If there are 144 000 'Super Elect' who are higher in rank and who delegate or task the elect ? ephesians 4v11 ;1 cor 12v28...
I hope we are not misguided into thinking these elect are still coming at a future time?or that Revelation is for someone else in time to come??
Surely we can see certain fruits from bumping into a certain Ray Smith fellow
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Hi Mike,
I think most of us spent so many years in the church and seeing them teach the literalness in all the Scripture, so that's how we were trained to see it and it takes time to un-train that way of thinking. They take everything that the Scripture says literally and says it's spiritual, no, the literal words are pointing to a higher spiritual meaning. God has made the truth a mystery, hidden in plain sight, so that "seeing they do not see." The spiritual meaning is not obvious, it is not what the literal symbols are, that only point to the real spirit in/behind the words.
So 144,000 literally is a large number, but it has meaning behind the literal number
12 = God’s government - 12x12 = complete - x1000 = all the chosen
Does that make sense? I don't think it means that literal number of people anymore than New Jerusalem is a literal city or we are literal sheep or when Christ appears He will be sitting on a literal white horse and on and on. You have to kind of need to train yourself to look for the meaning behind the word/symbol now.
Hope that is helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I seen today it isn't about the 144.000 why Jesus had me start this thread! I had to remove my last response, I was keeping records of things people said in this string as wrongs against me! Love keeps no records of wrongs. This thread is really about my carnal Heart and the work Jesus is doing to circumcise it until it is just Christ! If I have offended any one forgive me! I wasn't and still ain't really all that concerned about the number, the number isn't the point I see now, it's the heart! All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean anything if my heart isn't being circumzied!! I know what the lake of fire is! Thank you all for your great response's!
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Hello Mike,
what is fascinating to me from what I've learned is that I cannot learn anything about God until God's appointed time,
EC 3:1 Everything that happens in this world happens at the time God chooses.
This includes our understanding, when we learn the meaning of symbolism.
Last night while driving down the road I had passed a telephone pole and I, at that moment, realized I passed that pole at the appointed time I was suppose to pass it. Mind blowing isn't it?
God is cool in every way, He is totally awesome in that nothing happens until the appointed time in the appointed season.
God bless. :)
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So true Rick! It is in His time, for it is God which worketh in us both to will and do of His good pleasure! And there is a time appointed for everything!
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I seen today it isn't about the 144.000 why Jesus had me start this thread! I had to remove my last response, I was keeping records of things people said in this string as wrongs against me! Love keeps no records of wrongs. This thread is really about my carnal Heart and the work Jesus is doing to circumcise it until it is just Christ! If I have offended any one forgive me! I wasn't and still ain't really all that concerned about the number, the number isn't the point I see now, it's the heart! All the knowledge in the world doesn't mean anything if my heart isn't being circumzied!! I know what the lake of fire is! Thank you all for your great response's!
;D
"heart being circumcised"...circumcision without hands...that's spiritual. "I know what the Lake of Fire is." That's spiritual.
The spiritual is what's real. Real life.
His words are not just spiritual, but they are LIFE. I'm glad to see you living this life right here through the sometimes too dark window of this internet thingamajig.
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If the number was literal than we would all miss out because I presume that none of us are jews. 12000 from each tribe and that's it? No gentiles? Why were we grafted into the vine then? 12 is the number of divine government. 12 x 12 = 144 enhances the point being made. The way to become a part of the elect was predestined for all of us. The destination of election is the goal. Not a part prize, not 2nd or 3rd place, but as we all die to the flesh then the more of Christ within us our hope of glory. We need to grow up into the head which is Christ. That is what makes one elect. We make our calling and election sure by submitting to the corrective process of dying to the flesh through suffering, just as Christ learned and grew in favour through obedience in the things that he suffered.
Hands to the plow my brothers and sisters....the road is a narrow one. 8)
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The elect are the true Jews! ....And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people? In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it. For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people. (Romans 2:26-29 NLT)...In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Colossians 2:11 KJV)... We don't do this work! This is the work of the lake of fire and that's Christ! And everyday I go through this fire!! And I pray for His will to be done, His work to be done in my life... Just thought I would share that! Thanks...
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If the number was literal than we would all miss out because I presume that none of us are jews. 12000 from each tribe and that's it? No gentiles? Why were we grafted into the vine then? 12 is the number of divine government. 12 x 12 = 144 enhances the point being made. The way to become a part of the elect was predestined for all of us. The destination of election is the goal. Not a part prize, not 2nd or 3rd place, but as we all die to the flesh then the more of Christ within us our hope of glory. We need to grow up into the head which is Christ. That is what makes one elect. We make our calling and election sure by submitting to the corrective process of dying to the flesh through suffering, just as Christ learned and grew in favour through obedience in the things that he suffered.
Hands to the plow my brothers and sisters....the road is a narrow one. 8)
Hi watchmen,
Good admonishing, just a small comment though.
We are the Isreal of God and those tribes represent us.
Romans 9:6-8 "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
1 Peter 2:9-10 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."
We are the Jews.
God bless,
Alex
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When you read LRays lake of fire, it's seems to me that there is a whole lot more to becoming a true Jew, like a life time of processing rather then just quoting scriptures before you are ready! First the natural, then the spiritual or the birth of the true Jew! When you think your in a process that's fine, but when you read Lrays teachings and the scriptures that say you can also lose this position it might be wise to consider who we think we are!... So if you think you are standing firm,be careful that you don't fall!! Lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. I see what's happening in my life and I know what process I am going through and when Gods done his work in me let Him call me a true Jew, that's Christ!! 😀
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Can numbers be symbols or are they numbers? John LOOKED and SAW 144000, the scriptures do not say he looked and saw 144000 which signifies the body of Christ. I have never heard of or seen in scripture anywhere the symbolic value or representation of that number. Any thoughts for feedback? :)
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Hi PaulJayyyy,
Welcome to the forum :)
Well to consider every number in Scripture as literal then where is the spiritual meaning that Christ spoke of?
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
Yes there is can be a literal application, but that is for the physical, not the spiritual. There are numerous times in Scripture where numbers are symbols, here is an earlier post about this.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ----------------------------
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
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When you look at how the number 12 is used throughout Scripture it seems to show the completion of what God is doing. There were 12 tribes of Israel that represented the Old Testament people of God. Then as the New Testament begins Christ chose 12 disciples and when 1 (Judas) killed himself, they added another to bring it back up to 12. It's interesting that Jesus was answering the questions the scholars in the Temple at the age of 12 (Luke 2:42).
In Revelation 21 there is the city coming out of heaven, New Jerusalem which has 12 pearl gates, 12 angels gatekeepers, the names of the 12 tribes of the children of Israel written on the gates and the wall of the city had 12 foundations with the names of the 12 apostles. All symbolizing the perfect completeness of it.
The Tree of Life was in the garden of Eden and in Revelation 22 we see it represents Christ and is in New Jerusalem having 12 fruits yielding fruit each of the 12 months.
• 12 pillars were erected at Mt. Sinai [Exodus 24:4].
• 12 pillars were erected in the Promised Land [Joshua 4:1-9].
• 12 statues of oxen held up the water basin in Solomon's Temple [1 Kings 7:25].
• 12 men were selected by God to conduct the census of the tribes [Numbers 1:2-16].
• 12 princes of Israel brought gifts to the Sanctuary on 12 days [Numbers 7:10-83].
• 12 spies sent to reconnoiter Canaan [Numbers 13:1-15].
• 12 legions of angles [Matthew 26:53].
Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.
v. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps,
v. 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
So when you see the significance of the number 12 in Scripture and see that the 144,000, this is 12 times 12 (showing the power of the number, a profound statement about the completeness of God’s government to be set up in the next age) a thousand times. This number 1000 is also used to show the absolute wholeness of the numbers 144,000, as 1000 in Scripture can represent all of something.
Deu 7:9 "Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for 1000 generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
1Ch 16:15 Remember His covenant forever, The word which He commanded, for a thousand generations,
Psalms 50:10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, And the cattle on 1000 hills.
2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Lots of symbolism there, hope it's helpful.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you for that Kat ;-) that was great! However, I see a lot of events in the bible that are allegorical to explain other things, but the events themselves are literally real events that happened and actually took place. So I'm not 100 percent convinced yet, my heart still sees this number as being a literal number that represents the body of Christ. Usually when I am presented with a solid case against my belief I struggle with it for awhile before it takes affect but not so far in this case :-)
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So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P
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Paul, you should read back over this thread again, because I think most of your questions should have already been answered.
But yes the stories in the Bible that we read: Adam and Eve, Noah's ark, Moses and the Israelites... are all true events that literally did happen. But there is much symbolism in those stories that point to higher spiritual truths. Now there are parables hidden within the story itself and that's what makes the Scripture such a mystery.
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
Nobody can just figure these things out, that's what the religions of the world have tried to do down through the centuries to no avail, they look on all these things as literal and therefore have no spiritual knowledge. The 144,000 is no more a literal number than 5 of the 10 virgins is the actual number of the elect.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So if that number is just a symbol then the body of Christ can be any number of people, it could in fact be every single believer in Christ since the cross, if, of course, they have been tried in the fire, and, have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world. It took him 4.3 billion years to prepare this planet to process sons, this tells me he's very precise, meticulous, and exact, so when he says he will redeem exactly 144000 men from exactly 12 tribes, with literal names per tribe I'm slightly inclined to believe it. :-P
You seemed to be inclined to believe whatever you feel while ignoring what has been stated. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."
2 Peter 1:20 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is at all becoming its own explanation."
2Pe 1:20 "Of this, first, taking note—that, no prophecy of scripture, becometh, self-solving;"
2 Corinthians 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."
Matthew 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
Do you also believe Jesus will literally return back to earth with a sword sticking out of His mouth?
Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
No? Then why are these numbers suddenly literal exact values rather than shadows of spiritual realities?
This is the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST. What do we know about His Words?
John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit[NOT literal], and they are life."
What is the FIRST thing we are told about this testimony of Jesus'?
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
Do you know what it means to SIGNIFY something?
Here is strong's definition:
Strong's Concordance
sémainó: to give a sign
Original Word: σημαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sémainó
Phonetic Spelling: (say-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I signify, indicate
Definition: I signify, indicate, give a sign, make known.
Here is the dictionary definition of Signify:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/signify
signify (ˈsɪɡnɪˌfaɪ)
vb (when tr, may take a clause as object) , -fies, -fying or -fied
1. (tr) to indicate, show, or suggest
2. (tr) to imply or portend: the clouds signified the coming storm.
3. (tr) to stand as a symbol, sign, etc (for)
4. (intr) to be significant or important
To quote ray:
"He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal."
Read this paper by ray for more information: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
In Christ,
Alex
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it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."
Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).
I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
DRB Psa 119:160 The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.
JB Hebrew Psa 119:160 The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God
Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice
Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,
144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short
this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12 this is my understanding so....
dont take it to the bank
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it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."
Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).
I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
DRB Psa 119:160 The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.
JB Hebrew Psa 119:160 The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God
Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice
Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,
144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short
this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12 this is my understanding so....
dont take it to the bank
International Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting."
English Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."
New American Standard Bible "The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Shin."
Holman Christian Standard Bible "The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever. "
American Standard Version "The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever."
Darby Bible Translation "The sum of thy word is truth, and every righteous judgment of thine is for ever."
English Revised Version "The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
Young's Literal Translation "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"
Concordat Literal Version "The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Biblos Interlinear Bible "The sum of your word is truth..."
Rotterdam "The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations. "
The list goes on and on.
3-4 Translations????
Here is the word the KJV translates "beginning" according to strongs;
H7218
רֹאשׁ
rô'sh
roshe
band, captain, company,
From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.) -- band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.
In exodus 30:12 the KJV translates this word you argue as beginning into SUM.
Exo 30:12 "WhenH3588 thou takestH5375 (H853) the sumH7218 of the childrenH1121 of IsraelH3478 after their number,H6485 then shall they giveH5414 every manH376 a ransomH3724 for his soulH5315 unto the LORD,H3068 when thou numberestH6485 them; that there beH1961 noH3808 plagueH5063 among them, when thou numberestH6485 them. "
Exo 30:12 "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number,"
Here the KJV does it again as SUM
Numbers 1:2 "Take ye the sum of all the congregation..."
Num 1:2 "TakeH5375 ye(H853) the sumH7218 of allH3605 the congregationH5712"
And again...
Numbers 4:22 "Take also the sum of the sons"
Here are all the occurrences of the word if you want to check it yourself: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/rosh_7218.htm
Its almost never translated beginning but mostly the top/head and taking into account the sentence structure can be translated accurately as SUM.
7 =sum, especially in phrase ׳בְּנֵייִֿשׂ ׳נָשָׂא אֶתרֿ Exodus 30:12take the sum of, enumerate, compare Numbers 1:2,49; Numbers 4:2,22; Numbers 26:2; Numbers 31:26,49; בְּראֹשׁוֺ Leviticus 5:24 in its sum, i.e. in full, so Numbers 5:7 (all P); of ׳יs thoughts Psalm 139:17; compare ראֹשׁ דְּבָֽרְךָ אֱמֶתPsalm 119:160.
Here is a link to its various uses according to strong scroll down and you'll find 7 which pertains to its uses as SUM: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7218.htm
Furthermore, The word "beginning" as seen in Genesis is a totally different word.
Proverb 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety."
In the mouth of two or three witnesses, in the multitude of counselors, taking ACCOUNT for the SUM of the word, there IS safety for no piece of scripture is at all becoming its OWN interpretation.
In Christ ,
Alex
P.S. We know the KJV contains gross mistranslation such as eternal, forever, hell, etc... and the bibles that translate off it perpetuate those mistakes. The literal versions and then some (pun intended) translate it as "SUM of thy word."
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it doesn't work that way. It is the SUM of the word that is truth, not one individual verse interpreted by itself void of other witnesses.
Psalm 119:160 "The sum of thy word is truth,..."
Actually the "sum" hebrew is The beginning it is in 3-4 translations , rendered SUM but that may imply "unless you put all the word together some word on its own may not be true, but when you add the words up they are (that is by comparison).
I am inclined to go with KJ and about 9 others on this one
Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
DRB Psa 119:160 The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.
JB Hebrew Psa 119:160 The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,... "every word is true"and every word is inspired by God
Interesting too is the word "WORD" greek it is spoken as in... "I give you my word" a promise or advice
Just a little side line I thought may be helpful when studying,
144000 represent all the true Jews ie spiritual Israel the 24 elders are the 12 sons of Abraham and the 12 disciples - I believe 12 Apostles rather as the death of Judas made the 12 disciple 1 short
this has a higher meaning bringing/grafting together the old 12 and the new 12 this is my understanding so....
dont take it to the bank
International Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting."
English Standard Version "The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever."
New American Standard Bible "The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. Shin."
Holman Christian Standard Bible "The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever. "
American Standard Version "The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever."
Darby Bible Translation "The sum of thy word is truth, and every righteous judgment of thine is for ever."
English Revised Version "The sum of thy word is truth; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."
Young's Literal Translation "The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!"
Concordat Literal Version "The sum of Your word is truth, And all of Your righteous ordinances are eonian."
Biblos Interlinear Bible "The sum of your word is truth..."
Rotterdam "The sum of thy word, is truth, and, age-abiding, is every one of thy righteous regulations. "
The list goes on and on.
3-4 Translations????
Here is the word the KJV translates "beginning" according to strongs;
H7218
רֹאשׁ
rô'sh
roshe
band, captain, company,
From an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.) -- band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.
In exodus 30:12 the KJV translates this word you argue as beginning into SUM.
Exo 30:12 "WhenH3588 thou takestH5375 (H853) the sumH7218 of the childrenH1121 of IsraelH3478 after their number,H6485 then shall they giveH5414 every manH376 a ransomH3724 for his soulH5315 unto the LORD,H3068 when thou numberestH6485 them; that there beH1961 noH3808 plagueH5063 among them, when thou numberestH6485 them. "
Exo 30:12 "When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number,"
Here the KJV does it again as SUM
Numbers 1:2 "Take ye the sum of all the congregation..."
Num 1:2 "TakeH5375 ye(H853) the sumH7218 of allH3605 the congregationH5712"
And again...
Numbers 4:22 "Take also the sum of the sons"
Here are all the occurrences of the word if you want to check it yourself: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/rosh_7218.htm
Its almost never translated beginning but mostly the top/head and taking into account the sentence structure can be translated accurately as SUM.
7 =sum, especially in phrase ׳בְּנֵייִֿשׂ ׳נָשָׂא אֶתרֿ Exodus 30:12take the sum of, enumerate, compare Numbers 1:2,49; Numbers 4:2,22; Numbers 26:2; Numbers 31:26,49; בְּראֹשׁוֺ Leviticus 5:24 in its sum, i.e. in full, so Numbers 5:7 (all P); of ׳יs thoughts Psalm 139:17; compare ראֹשׁ דְּבָֽרְךָ אֱמֶתPsalm 119:160.
Here is a link to its various uses according to strong scroll down and you'll find 7 which pertains to its uses as SUM: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/7218.htm
Furthermore, The word "beginning" as seen in Genesis is a totally different word.
Proverb 11:14 "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellers there is safety."
In the mouth of two or three witnesses, in the multitude of counselors, taking ACCOUNT for the SUM of the word, there IS safety for no piece of scripture is at all becoming its OWN interpretation.
In Christ ,
Alex
P.S. We know the KJV contains gross mistranslation such as eternal, forever, hell, etc... and the bibles that translate off it perpetuate those mistakes. The literal versions and then some (pun intended) translate it as "SUM of thy word."
. Wouldn't this last quote be teaching?, and is teaching ok here? 😀 just thought someone early in a different post said no teaching!
Hello Mike,
Which part of my post do you feel is teaching that is contrary to what ray or the scriptures say?
Kindly,
Alex
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Mike, yes there is an 'no teaching' rule.
There are a lot of articles on the BT site and it is difficult to keep up with all that is taught there, so we can come in here and ask questions and discuss things. What one needs to be careful of is that when we discuss things 'in our own words' we need to be careful it is in keeping with what Ray taught. Now I know that takes a little discernment, but that's what we are learning to do and that's where others that are well studied in what Ray taught helps.
So it helps to have a good background of what Ray taught and then we can discuss things and learn from each other.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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lol
Alex im not gonna get banned over this ...
if sum suits you - dat cool however SUM is not found in original manuscripts
This was something I came across and looked it up albeit not thoroughly and thought it may be of interest to members
I probably should have clarified 3-4 translations -
3-4 translations of 12 on my e-sword,alone
Sum Does not feature in the original 7760. sum or sim ►. Strong's Concordance. sum or sim: to put, place, set.[/b]
... כְּפַר הָעַמּוֺנִי see כָּפָר above Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
bribe, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village. ...
I dont even think Sum is Anglo saxon I think it is much later as opposed to beginning which i think fits better and seems to be closer to the original, but that is my opinion
Hebrew equivalent "beginning" from rosh Definition ...beginning,chief
NASB Translation...beginning (19), choice (2), choicest (3), finest (2), first (16), first fruits (7), foremost (2).
This scripture in psalms seems to point to Jesus,Yes? (Now i am almost certain you don't think the word Sum does Jesus Justice )
and as I said... SUM may imply be construed as ..." unless you put all the word together, some of the word,on its own, may not be true, but when you add the words up they are true (that is by comparison)" this I believe is blasphemy.
This,above,was an explanation I found while checking on a totally different issue with Kat. So it may have been better placed on another board but since you had just quoted that scripture ...I put it up in that particular chat or whatever you call it.
Here are some other variations I have found ---not on my e sword
This one 1st up is from "Ian's concise, living, authorised ,standard,scriptural,literal red bible"
Psalm 160 "The first fruits of your word is true" (think I should patent it) ;)
New International Version
All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.
New Living Translation
The very essence of your words is truth; all your just regulations will stand forever.
King James Bible
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous judgments endure forever.
International Standard Version
The sum of your word is truth, and each righteous ordinance of yours is everlasting.
NET Bible
Your instructions are totally reliable; all your just regulations endure.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The origin of your word is the truth and all the judgments of your righteousness are for eternity.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
There is nothing but truth in your word, and all of your righteous regulations endure forever.
King James 2000 Bible
Your word is true from the beginning: and every one of your righteous judgments endures forever.
American King James Version
Your word is true from the beginning: and every one of your righteous judgments endures for ever.
American Standard Version
The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.
Webster's Bible Translation
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
World English Bible
All of your words are truth. Every one of your righteous ordinances endures forever. SIN AND SHIN
Young's Literal Translation
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
Douay-Rheims Bible
(ABP+) The beginning G746 G3588 of your words G3056 G1473 is truth;G225 and G2532 into G1519 the G3588 eon G165 are all G3956 the G3588 judgments G2917 G3588 of your righteousness.G1343 G1473
(ASV) The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever.
(CEV) All you say can be trusted; your teachings are true and will last forever.
(DRB) The beginning of thy words is truth: all the judgments of thy justice are for ever.
(ERV) Every word you say can be trusted. Your laws are fair and will last forever.
(JPS) The beginning of Thy word is truth; and all Thy righteous ordinance endureth for ever.
(KJV) Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
(KJV) Thy word H1697 is true H571 from the beginning:H7218 and every one H3605 of thy righteous H6664 judgments H4941 endureth for ever.H5769
Vs psalm 130
The declaration of thy words giveth light: and giveth
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple .
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.
New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple
Parallel Strong's
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.
New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.
King James Bible
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Parallel Verses
New International Version
The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.
New Living Translation
The teaching of your word gives light, so even the simple can understand.
English Standard Version
The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.
New American Standard Bible
The unfolding of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.
King James Bible
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The revelation of Your words brings light and gives understanding to the inexperienced.
International Standard Version
The disclosure of your words illuminates, providing understanding to the simple.
NET Bible
Your instructions are a doorway through which light shines. They give insight to the untrained.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Open your word and shine and give understanding to young children.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Your word is a doorway that lets in light, and it helps gullible people understand.
King James 2000 Bible
The entrance of your words gives light; it gives understanding unto the simple.
American King James Version
The entrance of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.
American Standard Version
The opening of thy words giveth light; It giveth understanding unto the simple.
Douay-Rheims Bible
The declaration of thy words giveth light: and giveth understanding to little ones.
Darby Bible Translation
The entrance of thy words giveth light, giving understanding unto the simple.
English Revised Version
The opening of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
Webster's Bible Translation
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding to the simple.
World English Bible
The entrance of your words gives light. It gives understanding to the simple.
Young's Literal Translation
The opening of Thy words enlighteneth, Instructing the simple.
Ok ? this was not a challenge this was supposed to be of interest, that was my motive an even bigger one is the word WORD, I found that fascinating
Ian
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Okay let's just fall back on what Ray had to say about this and leave it at that.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7047.0 -------------
What were the King James translators thinking when they translated Psalms 119:160 as: “Thy word is true from the beginning”? I mean did somebody think He lied someplace along the line? I mean some times there are some simplistic things stated in the Scripture, but that verse is almost an oxymoron to say God’s Word was Truth from the beginning. Well that word can be translated “beginning,” but sometimes Hebrew and Greek words have rather different meanings and you have to determine from the text. Of course any scholar can as in;
Psalms 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning...
Rotherham - The sum of thy word, is truth...
CLV - The sum of Your word is truth...
ASV - The sum of thy word is truth...
YLT - The sum of Thy word is truth...
They all have that it is the SUM of God’s word that is truth! Not that His word was truth "from the beginning." But King James changed the word order, that’s not the right word order. Now the sum of God’s Word is truth, that is such an amazing, spiritual, Scriptural, profound, eternal Truth and it’s lost in the translation. Because that is the only place it says that specifically that way and it’s lost in the translation. I didn’t know that until like eight years ago or whatever. All my life reading this and I never knew what that Scripture said. “The SUM of Thy Word is truth.”
Well we can dissect that a little bit... not that any part of God’s Word is not truth. But if "the sum" equals the truth, maybe part of the sum only equals part of the truth. I mean it’s all true, but it is only part of this truth, there is more.
Now in the Scripture it says;
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
I just thought about that this morning, I just thought about this for the first time. Do you know what that statement contradicts? CONTEXT! That contradicts the god of context, context, context... flat out contradicts it. Because they say if you take, "here a little and there a little," what are you doing? Pulling it out of context, see.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Ian,
I don't disagree that the word can mean, the foremost, the beginning, etc... as this is part of the way ro'sh is translated at times. It is translated as "head" the most (like 80% of the time or something if my eye balling math is correct) and indeed means "head." We could interpret that to mean beginning of the Word of God but many times the sentence structure and the positioning of a word play a big role in ultimately defining the word itself in that sentence. Many many many translators with extensive experience in transliterating and translation of the languages (both hebrew, greek, and english) felt it was more accurately rendered as "SUM."
I see no harm in interpreting the verse the way you desire but as ray pointed out, it is rather an oxymoron, and the real meaning is entirely lost. It is profitable to understand the verse as many other translators feel it was meant to be understood. It gives us a more complete understanding of how we are to interpret the rest of scripture. In it's totality, as a SUM. My belief in this is not merely left to translations and man's words but to other verses of scripture that testify to this idea (2 Peter 1:20, 2 Corinthians 13:1, Matthew 18:16 Proverb 11:14) which I already quoted.
As to my original post, it was intended to confront what appeared as a dishonest claim on how many translations use the rendering of "ro'sh" as "sum." It is FAR MORE than the 3-4 you had originally spoken. Furthermore, you addressed your previous post (in which you made the claim) to myself so I felt it proper that I should respond for the sake of those who are reading and may have an interest in this matter. I think everyone benefits when we search these matters out, at least it is my sincere hope that this is edifying for the brethren, and I feel led by God's spirit to understand this verse as accurately stating "The Sum of thy Word is truth."
In Christ,
Alex
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Im happy you understand what I was saying and Im happy that everyone may now, not just accept what some "Scribe" just "sticks" in,because their particular understanding/doctorate,thinks they can. (if I was taught anything, its check every angle) and by doing so one usually ends up on a profitable spiritual journey.
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And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000
Here is where L Ray states the claim to the 144000
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What your telling me Alex is that L Ray contradicts himself, and if your not saying it then I will. It's all a matter of perspective anyhow...
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Ray doesn't "contradict himself" by jumping back and forth from these things being "signified' and being literal. If any reader does, then don't blame Ray.
Furthermore, this scripture (like ALL scripture) is not it's own interpretation. If you don't know 'who' spiritual Israel is, then that is another lesson.
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I'm not blaming anyone I'm just pointing out what LRay said and what he said was that Christ is the 144000... And yes I know Jesus Christ so don't worry about giving me lessons... Oh and Alex you assume way to much. Don't patroniz me with your simpleton questions like "do I think that Jesus will come back with a literal sword out of his mouth" your not all that and a bag of potato chips lol so settle down son
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PaulJayyyy, I think you may have missunderstood what Ray was saying there, maybe reread that section I have below and here is another place he spoke of who the 144,000 are.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html -----------------------
THE CHURCH IN PHILADELPHIA
(6)
"Him that overcomes will I make a pillar [a position of great spiritual responsibility] in the temple of my God" (3:12).
That’s CHRIST,
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone; In Whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD" (Eph. 2:21).
Christ is our Temple for we live in Him as HIS BODY, and we are the temple of God’s Holy Spirit that lives and dwells IN US, and Christ IS that Spirit—"abide in Me, and I in you."
And "…he shall go no more out" That’s CHRIST. We are IN Christ, we are the Body of Christ, Christ is our temple, our house, where we dwell "IN Christ."
We abide and dwell in Christ and Christ abides and dwells and lives HIS LIFE in us, so that we will "go no more out," till at the consummations of all the ages, "God may be ALL in All" (I Cor. 15:28).
"And I will write upon him the NAME OF MY GOD, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME."
That’s CHRIST! These are honors and rewards bestowed upon us by Christ. The 144,000 (12 x 12, complete foundational kingdom of God’s government for the new world) are given the Father’s name in their foreheads (Rev. 14:1 & 22:4). Not a tattoo on the forehead skin, but inside their foreheads, in their hearts and minds.
New Jerusalem is the heavenly Jerusalem spoken of in Heb. 12:22, where "the general assembly and church of the firstborn [Christ and His anointed body of believers], which are written in heaven" is found. It is from New Jerusalem and heavenly Mt. Sion that the government of Christ will proceed in bringing Salvation to the Earth and the Universe (Isa. 2:2). I will write upon him My new name. This is the same new name that we discussed in the Church of Pergamos.
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html -------------------------
THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).
COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.
In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat