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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: mharrell08 on June 27, 2011, 05:13:28 PM
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First, if you could, please read the excerpt below:
Excerpt from 2011 bible study 'Is Jesus God?/Are you Afraid of God?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html):
I have a little bit more that I want to cover about our relationship with God and how we see the Father in Christ.
I’m going to ask A question. Jesus Christ said no man had ever seen the Father or seen His shape or heard His voice. So I have wondered for a long time, will we ever? What do you think Gordon? [I think yes.] You think yes, okay. There is a Scripture that says we will see Him as He is.
1John 3:2 …for we shall see Him as He is.
There is the Scripture. But there is another one that says [Comment: It can’t be anything different though.] No it’s got to fit. Of course I have a way with a crowbar to make it fit. No. In 1 Tim. 6 I had trouble figuring out who this was talking about, Christ or the Father, for a long time. Still some translations put it one way or the other. See what you think.
1Tim 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
v. 14 That you keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 15 Which in His times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Who is that? [Comment: Jesus] Well He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. But lets read on.
1Tim 6:16 Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
Diaglott
1Tim 6:15 Which in His own season that blessed and only Potentate will exhibit the King of kings;
So who is doing the exhibiting? [Comment: Jesus.] Jesus? Well it sounds like it will be the Father. Gordon? [I’m not sure.] [Comment: Sounds like Jesus is going to exhibit His Father, manifest His Father.] I would put it maybe the other way, but let’s see.
Diaglott
1Tim 6:16 the only One possessing immortality, inhabiting light inaccessible, who no man has seen, nor is able to see;
Can this be said of Jesus?
New American Bible
1Tim 6:15 That the Blessed and only Ruler will manifest at the proper time, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
v. 16 Who alone has immortality, who dwells in the unapproachable light and whom no human being has seen are can see.
You think that is speaking of Christ? [Comment: The first part is talking about the Father and then it’s talking about Jesus.] But then again do we know that’s the proper translation.
The living Bible is pretty good on some of this stuff.
The living Bible
1Tim 6:15 For in due season Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and all mighty God, the King of kings and Lord of lords.
v. 16 Who alone can never die…
Now it’s interesting that when we know that immortality means deathlessness or you can never die. But when you say “can never die,” then it seems you rule out Jesus Christ. He died. Listen to this.
v. 16 …who lives in light so terrible that no human being (Jesus Christ is a human being) can approach Him, no mere man has ever seen Him, nor ever will.
So I’m not 100% sure on that. So I’ve wondered… we know that no man has ever seen the Father, Jesus Christ said so. We know that no human can see, not only the Father, but can’t see the glory of God no matter which divinity or member of the Godhead it would be. Because when it was Moses, it wasn’t just Elohim, you would say well that’s the Father, no that was Yahweh Elohim. So if Yahweh is Jesus, then He also has a glory, that no man can see.
We know He has a glory beyond any human being, because when He was transfigured on the mountain there, it says He had this radiance about Him. But it certainly wasn’t on the magnitude that it would kill you to look at Him, because John, Peter and James were there.
So I’m not quite sure yet. You may say what does it matter and so on and so forth? Well to me it is really an interesting concept, to know the answer to it. You know they say familiarity breeds contempt and that certainly is true to a large extent on the human level.
Those that work around the president everyday, after a while they can lose that awe and respect. I don’t think most of his cabinet do, but you know it can happen. You can think I can see his problems, he’s just like us, he’s no better than us. Sort of an attitude.
So maybe if we could see God on an equal level in eternity, that could breed familiarity, I don’t know. What do ya’ll think about that? [Comment: What is the question?] Will we ever see our Father? [Comment: It said “mere men,” us.] Yeah. [Comment: In His coming kingdom.] Well except for the Scripture here. If this is talking about the Father. Gordon do you know of another Scripture like this one in 1Timothy? Do you know of another Scripture even close to that, where it says no human being can approach Him, no mere man has ever seen Him, nor ever will? Is there another Scripture anywhere close to that? [I don’t know.] I don’t know of any. But then we have Scriptures like 1 John 3... I know this is suppose to be a Bible study where I teach you things. You get to see some of my thought processes.
There are no definite right or wrong answers. You can answer a simple yes/no or comment further if you feel lead to. Just would like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks
Marques
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Hi
As long as we are in "maybe" land I will take a stab. I feel that after our change is come from physical to spiritual, then we will see Him as he is. If he is our Father (in spirit) then when we are spirit we will see our Father. I am looking forward to Ray sharing his revelation/thoughts with us on this.
Askseeknock
CEO
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Marques...I truly enjoy your deep "ponderisms". What a beautiful, inquistive mind God gave you!
My two cents. I agree with the above post.
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I would say, "yes", we will SEE the Father someday. Here's my thinking:
"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2
Now, some could use Christ's statement that "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" as a counter. However, I believe this next verse further supports my stance:
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has SEEN the Father." John 6:47
How did Christ ever "see" the Father? It wouldn't make sense for Him to say He's seen the Father "through" Himself (Jesus). So, then, I'd say that, Yes, Jesus has actually (somehow) seen the Father visibly. And if we are to become exactly like Christ is, then I'd say, just as Christ has "seen" the Father, so shall we.
And, furthermore:
"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37
Notice that Jesus never said the Father does not have a "voice", and He never said the Father does not have a "form"; He just said we've never "heard" or "seen" them.
so that's my thoughts...
Daywalker 8)
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Daywalker/John...You nailed it again! Thank you for your research and substantiating verses. It is much appreciated.
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Yes!!! We will see the Father! ;D
I have no doubts about this.
1Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
This is also our hope!!
My question is what exactly will we see?
Will we have eyes similar to what we have or perfect perception? I don't know........
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Invisible things are understood by things that are made.
How much more understanding to actually see those invisible things!
What ever those invisible things are I assume makes up the Father. I don't know......
CLV has a good rendition:
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.
I love the thought that through this process we may find an answer!
Antaiwan
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You know they say familiarity breeds contempt and that certainly is true to a large extent on the human level.
Those that work around the president everyday, after a while they can lose that awe and respect. I don’t think most of his cabinet do, but you know it can happen. You can think I can see his problems, he’s just like us, he’s no better than us. Sort of an attitude.
So maybe if we could see God on an equal level in eternity, that could breed familiarity, I don’t know.
I remember thinking about this point when I read that article. The basis of familiarity breeding contempt is human nature. Human Nature, aka Carnality, will be done away with, so familiarity would no longer breed contempt.
I thoroughly believe that the Father is not going to be some absent third party.
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1Jn 3:2 Dear friends, we are now God's children, but what we will be like has not been revealed yet. We know that when Christ is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him as he is.
Who see's Jesus is like Jesus.
Arc
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Amen Arc.
Hi Guys,
Please don’t see this as Grape being flippant. Seriously, hands up all you ex-Babylonians that still see Daddy as a man in the sky with a long beard.
You really don’t have to answer me, but genuinely ask of yourself, “How do I see Daddy?”
Throughout my sojourn in Babylon, I read my bible like a book,( Big mistake)
Then, one glorious day Daddy led me to Uncle Ray and switched a light on!
On discovering that the translation called a bible wasn’t scripture at all, but an interpretation, Ray gave me a thirst to rediscover the mystery of my Heavenly Father.
To date, I think it’s as plain as a pikestaff, that when we are taught, “When we see Him we shall be like Him”, Author is leading us to a place of identification.
When we look in a mirror, what do we behold? Do we see ourselves as we are? NO.
We see a reflected image!
Does this give you a clue?
The reason that I asked that ‘silly’ question at the top?
Upward is spiritual.
Physically, upward is the sky and the Cosmos.
Is that where Daddy is?
Well of course, because He is everywhere.
But where does He contact with us?
Within.
The King of Kings, our First Brother Jesus Himself, made this quite clear.
Since getting that into my skull, I’ve stopped looking at the sky, wondering when He will appear.
Don’t I understand that He may come ‘down’ from Heaven, or we will rise up to meet Him? Yes. But not in the physical sense of dimensions.
After years of struggle and much tribulation, (and I don’t mean Earthly, our earthly tribulations are nothing compared to our Spiritual tribulations), I see that there can be only one way, His way, that He appears to us when we see Him as He is;
When we are like Him.
He approaches from within.
I figure, if I’m looking at the sky in wonder? I’m looking in the wrong direction.
He is ‘emerging’ from within me.
When He has fully emerged from within me, I will see Him as He is because I shall be like Him.
For now, I see puzzling reflections in a dirty mirror.
But then, I shall see Him as He is. Face to Face.
Now, I know in part and I prophesy in part.
Then, I shall know Him; just like He knows me.
Let him who has an ear, hear; and if he hears:-
Many Happy Returns !
Grape x
PS. I may be wrong; but I don’t think so.
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1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
PERSPECTIVE DETERMINES PERCEPTION
Arc
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Grape x
PS. I may be wrong; but I don’t think so.
I don't think so either. Man, that's good stuff there Grape! I understood it clearly and can appreciate your understanding, thanks bro :)
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Thanks for the heads up, Stacey! :)
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I had been thinking much as you do Grape. But with Ray's last Bible study I had to stop and think, Ray must be seeing something, so I want to rethink my view on this. So Jesus says you have not seen the Father's shape/form.
John 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.
Jesus is speaking to the Jews that persecuted Him, unbelievers. Back in chapter 3 Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about those that will be born into the kingdom, believers.
John 3:8 The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice, but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
There seems to be a distinction here, unbelievers that do not have the Spirit indwelling and cannot hear His voice or 'see' Him, but believer do.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever,
v. 17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you.
1John 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
Only true believers can know/see/hear God. Now it is by the Comforter within that we are preceiving and hearing and seeing, but not yet do we fully comprehend/see while in this flesh.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then faceG4383 to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall fully know even as I also am fully known.
G4383 prosōpon - face; the front (as being towards view), that is, the countenance, aspect, appearance, surface; by implication presence, person: - (outward) appearance, X before, countenance, face, fashion, (men’s) person, presence.
I think what we are trying to figure out would be is spirit ever visible? Well it makes me think of the story about Elisha and how God revealed all the spirit horses and chariots of fire to his servant.
2Kings 6:15 And the servant of the man of God arose early and went out. And, behold, an army surrounded the city, and horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, Alas, my master! What shall we do?
v. 16 And he answered, Do not fear, for those with us are more than those with them.
v. 17 And Elisha prayed and said, I pray You, Jehovah, open his eyes so that he may see. And Jehovah opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
The way I am thinking now is that maybe because of this flesh we hear/see/know the Spirit within and when the Elect are born into the kingdom they become spirit beings, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). We will know God, He will be revealed and if that form is Jesus the Christ then what more can we ask...
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
Whatever the Father is we will have a connection with Him that Jesus Christ does, we will be 'one' and that will satisfy every need that we might have to know the Father.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Astute recognition for Truth and a gift of clarity! Thank you Grape.
In thinking that Father or that Jesus, is outside, we create separatation between us and our Creator.
That God is with us, in us and approaches us from "within" ~ AMEN ~ :)
Kat, I can see how you are thinking. That might not mean I agree with you or need to follow you. I can see your thinking which is how you think that may give me food for thought and inspire me to evolve in my personal association in relationship to Christ in me who is unrestricted, unlimited and intimately personal.
Arc
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Thank you Arc for your understanding.
Kat. I appreciate your candour, but I'm having some difficulty understanding the point you are making. I in no way approach the scholarship of Ray in these matters. Could you please help me here, by being a little more succinct? I always value your input.
Every blessing,
Grape
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Grape, thank you for the stimulation that caused me to go to Gal. 1 and beyond. Much to cogitate upon.
Bless you.
Drew
I agree with Stacey and Arc and I also want to hear more from Kat concerning her comments. I appreciate her insights, as well.
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1Cr 15:28-- When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him,.... so that God may be all in all.
I always figured when we get to the ..."God may be ALL in ALL" age or aion was when we would see/know Him as He is.
Isn't "God will be all in all" the final round-up?
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Well to me how can God the Father be contained to a shape or image? It just seemed that He is too immense/glorious for that. Here is little part of the Bible study.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113152.html ----------
Since no man at any time has seen or heard the Father, what about Jesus? Jesus said;
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save (except) He (Jesus) which is of (from) God, He hath seen the Father.
Then why can’t we? Well we read it before, because we are mortal. When Jesus was with the Father He obviously was not mortal. Remember He lowered Himself, He emptied Himself,
He was “made.” It doesn’t say He was born a little lower than the angels, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels” (Heb 2:9). He was made. Contrary to so many people that I’m studying.
So the Father has not been seen by any one except the One who is “from God.” Concordant reads this way.
John 6:46 Not that the Father has been seen by anyone, except by the One who is from God. This One has seen the Father. (CLV)
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I realize this is just a discussion, we're all just sharing what we're seeing at this point.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image. It just seemed that He was too immense/glorious for that to me. But in the last Bible study what Ray was saying made me rethink this whole thing. Here is little part of the Bible study.
I'm with ya, Kat!
I don't believe the Father could be "contained" to a shape or form, but who's to say that He can't "appear" in a shape or form, like Jesus did several times after His resurrection? I mean, if Jesus is capable of walking the earth in human form, I would venture to say the Father could if He wanted to. I'm well aware that God is not a human, and no I don't believe the Father is 'an old man with a long grey beard' sitting on some throne somewhere in the celestials (LOL), but that doesn't mean He couldn't "appear" as one if He wanted to. As I said earlier, Jesus never said the Father had NO "voice" or "form". That doesn't belittle Him or 'reduce' Him one iota, in my opinion.
Sometimes, I think people let their imaginations run wild with all this "spiritual" stuff (meaning: spiritual beings, spiritual things). Just because "spirit beings" are invisible to us, doesn't mean they can't be visible ever, at all. Take angels and demons for example. I believe they exist. I can't see them, but I believe they are here. Can angels see each other? I think so. Can demons see each other? I think so. But how? Well, they must have a "form" of some sort that is visible to other spirit beings. How else would "Legion" have known that they "were many" if they couldn't see each other? When God spoke to Satan before Job's trials, could God see Satan? I think so. That would require Satan to have some sort of form, I venture. Could Satan see God? That's a good question, in my opinion. Jesus said no "man" has ever seen God at any time, but Satan is not a man, so perhaps he can see God?
Just speculation, I know. But things gotta make sense to me, and I don't see how the idea of us all being completely "invisible" not being able to see each other, interact with each other, can be of any comfort or joy. I'd like to think that when it's all said and done, we can all hang out together and chat about old times...that could just be my carnal side, though. :D
Just sayin... Daywalker 8)
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I think we may be getting bogged down here with the 'treachery of words'!
Words are pretty clumsy things when it comes to expressing infinitely finer meanings.
From my perspective, words, per se, do not have meaning. Consciousness has meaning and words are not conscious; they are vehicles of expression.
People have meaning and their expressions of meaning can become occluded by particular usage.
I was reminded of this recently when our dear brother Moises used the word 'baggy' to allude to the stretching of concepts between cultures; but I got what he meant.
This idea of 'seeing' God seems to revolve around the idioms used to express 'perception'.
If you 'see' what I mean! You are not 'seeing' with the eye. You are perceiving with your understanding. See? LOL!
Seriously though Kat, I appreciate that you began your reply by stating:
Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image.
OK. I'm fine with that, but that was not the thrust of my conjecture.
Jesus said that who had seen Him had seen the Father.
But God is not a man.................?
Therefore my understanding is the allusion that when we are perfected, we shall be like Him, as Jesus was and is and forever will be.
I did not suggest 'containment' of God in any way; either in form or formless.
I don't think anything I wrote suggested that.
And I've just read Daywalkers post in the middle of this and this whole caboodle seems to have gone off the rails! LOL! I'm not in disagreement with either of you!
Let me try this.................
As Arc succinctly said in another thread, Perspective is Perception, ie. no other physical person can see out from your eyes. That is your unique perspective. So on this earth we have six and a half billion worlds and counting. Thirteen billion eyes and that's just Humans! And no two have the same perspective.
Now, each perspective has its own Perception, because we internalise what we see and conclude a perception based on that perspective.
Basically all I was saying was that we eventually will be 'like' Jesus because I believe He is the perfect template for Humanity. Therefore when we see Him we shall be like Him, because Jesus is the image of his Father; OUR Father; and we are made in His image. His likeness.
I wanted simply to express the idea that His indwelling perfection is the potential for each one of us in either of the resurrections, that will be our condition, because He wills it so, and ALL shall be saved.
But, there are decades of Babylon conditioning that some of us are still struggling to escape and it sometimes shows itself in the subtext of some of our posts. The idea that God is something or someone 'outside' of us is a travesty of theological philosophy; as though there is a separation between Father and ANY part of His creation, which cannot possibly be, because ALL is contained in Him.
I didn't post to debate, but to placate and heal. That was my sole intention.
There's a lot of hurting out there and I just wanted to reassure the hurting that there is nothing to fear from Daddy's Love, for His will is to prosper us and bring us all from Glory to Glory.
Muchest Luv
Grape x
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Hi everyone, long time no speak for me but ive always been here.
Anyway ive been thinking on this a long time myself and i always wondered on the promises made in the scriptures that God will fulfill all our hopes and dreams and wishes. Personally, i believed this always because this was always taught even in "babylon" but even after reading the scriptures all these years and never "seeing" this phrase before i wondered if it really says this in scripture, then comes Rays teaching "YOU GOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS". So while rereading the same scriptures ive read countless times i find many places, especially in the Psalms saying He will fulfill our desires and that believers will see God.
Well at first i took the believers "will see God" as yes we will see Jesus, our Lord and God but since we have been shown the truth about the falseness of the trinity, could this also mean we will at sometime see the Father?--- i add in the fact of that God will fulfill all of our wishes and desires and i truly believe that most of us desire and wish that one day or at some time in the coming eons we get to see the Father. The only thing i could think of that this "wish of some of ours" doesnt come to pass is that it was never in Gods will for this to happen or its not in the "rules" He set. For example there are some hopes and dreams man has but they just violate the set rules or standards God has set (like travelling to the past) so maybe this one could be that case. Personally i hope and wish and dream that we will someday see the Father.
One last point, our thoughts and dreams and wishes do not originate on their own and it was God who has made some of us have this hope or wish so maybe.... I dont know, just my two cents
Anyway, i miss posting with you guys and nice talking to yas again. Hopefully God moves me more to posting.
In Jesus
Anthony
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Hi Grape,
We are all just discussing what our preceptions are at this time. My comments were not directed at what you were saying in any way to disaparage your understanding. I was merely putting forth where my own understanding had developed from. As you said and I agree, "Now, each perspective has its own Perception, because we internalise what we see and conclude a perception based on that perspective.
It's good to hear all of our different preceptions on a matter, much food for though 8)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I think we may be getting bogged down here with the 'treachery of words'!
Words are pretty clumsy things when it comes to expressing infinitely finer meanings.
And I've just read Daywalkers post in the middle of this and this whole caboodle seems to have gone off the rails! LOL! I'm not in disagreement with either of you!
Muchest Luv
Grape x
Oops, I did it again! Sorry, Grape! My posted wasn't directed "at" you nor was it intended as "debatin' words" of any sort. I was actually thinking about some weird stuff I've read/heard from other people, outside of the forum; reading through this thread and contemplating what different people said sparked my memory, which caused me to ramble a bit. Apologies for the confusion.
Daywalker 8)
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Kat and Chris, I was just reading my last response over and my phrasing does read a little 'edgy' and gives the impression that I was a bit 'cut'. Not intentional.
I was overtired at the end of a long day and wasn't choosing my words very well!
I love you both very much and know just how loving and sensitive you both are.
I'm always impressed by the quality of your individual input.
His richest blessings to you both. :) :)
Muchest Luv
Grape xx
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Kat and Chris, I was just reading my last response over and my phrasing does read a little 'edgy' and gives the impression that I was a bit 'cut'. Not intentional.
I was overtired at the end of a long day and wasn't choosing my words very well!
I love you both very much and know just how loving and sensitive you both are.
I'm always impressed by the quality of your individual input.
His richest blessings to you both. :) :)
Muchest Luv
Grape xx
Right back at ya! ;)
Christopher
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There are no definite right or wrong answers. You can answer a simple yes/no or comment further if you feel lead to. Just would like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks
Marques
Yes, I believe we will see the Father, even if I don't know at this time what seeing Him really means. ;)
Thanks, Marques, if nothing else, this thread motivated me to listen to that bible study again. As always, I got a lot out of it and felt inspired and uplifted. :)
René
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I say yes. Here's why I think so. 1 Thessalonians 4: 17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.". Seems to me that if we're going to be with the Lord (the Son) forever, then it implies that we will be in the presence of the Father and therefore will be able to see Him.
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Well Rene, Christ, i beleived said, if u have seen me u have seen the Father and even Christ Himself shall be given a new name one day and all power will be HANDED back to the FATHER so that all will be in all.
(1Co 15:28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Sandie x
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I think we will see the Father also.
Being in the "presence" of God as seen in the various references in the Bible helps me to know, that to be there is something not to be taken lightly.
Adam and Eve were made to leave the presence of God after being in Eden, and their contact with God became less and less, and they did come to know evil more and more.
Moses's face is said to have glowed, or made to shine after being in such close contact with God on the mount.
The angel Gaberial is said to "stand in the presence of God." Gods power, and Glory can no doubt be felt, And I think have a "center" for the lack of a better word.
Jesus is the Word of God, and a body was prepared for him to do the things required of him during his physical existence here on this earth, so why could God the Father not appear to his sons and daughters if he chose to do so? With God all things are possible, while keeping in mind that nothing can contain his greatness and limit him in any way.
Nothing can or will surpass the presence, closeness, and fellowship to be had with the Father, and the Son, in that Godly relationship that is to come. :)
Joel
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Daywalker,
re; God's form or no form?
My Greek/English has the following in Jn 5:37b.
"....Neither sound of him ever yet you have heard nor visible form of him you have seen"
It would seem that this wording does not necessarily prove that God utters sound or has a form that would be visible.
It just says that the reader or the person being spoken to has never heard God speak or seen God. It would include others as well.
Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.
The point of the text may be to discourage folks from thinking that God speaks to them audibly by vibrating the air as opposed to putting thoughts in their heart.
Also, consider maybe God communicates mind to mind in the full spiritual realm after we are changed.
Please comment, Indiana Bob
I would say, "yes", we will SEE the Father someday. Here's my thinking:
"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2
Now, some could use Christ's statement that "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" as a counter. However, I believe this next verse further supports my stance:
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has SEEN the Father." John 6:47
How did Christ ever "see" the Father? It wouldn't make sense for Him to say He's seen the Father "through" Himself (Jesus). So, then, I'd say that, Yes, Jesus has actually (somehow) seen the Father visibly. And if we are to become exactly like Christ is, then I'd say, just as Christ has "seen" the Father, so shall we.
And, furthermore:
"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37
Notice that Jesus never said the Father does not have a "voice", and He never said the Father does not have a "form"; He just said we've never "heard" or "seen" them.
so that's my thoughts...
Daywalker 8)
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My thoughts on one of the verses mentioned from the excerpt.
1Tim 6:16 Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
Who only has immortality - This is Jesus, he is the only mortal who has received immortality. He is the first.
dwelling in the light - This is telling us where Jesus is. He has immortality and he can and does dwell in the light, and the light is that..
which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see - this is speaking of the Father, He is the light that man/mortals cannot approach or see.
To me the ability to see or behold without dieing and dwell in the light or to completely be in the Father is part of the glory Jesus was referring to when he said,
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self (the light) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He wanted that back. To be able to once again dwell in the Father. If my thinking is right then when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light and see the Father the same way Jesus does.
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Hi Stacy,
To me the ability to see or behold without dieing and dwell in the light or to completely be in the Father is part of the glory Jesus was referring to when he said,
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self (the light) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He wanted that back. To be able to once again dwell in the Father. If my thinking is right then when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light and see the Father the same way Jesus does.
Yes that the way it seems to me too. This Scripture in John seems to reflect that idea.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
"In the bosom of the Father" what a great expression that is, in His bosom/embrace. Like you were saying, "when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light," that to me is His bosom.
To me it is such a comfort to look at it that way, much like when a mother holds/embraces her little child. A child wants to be right there in their mother's lap, all safe and secure, and those in the first resurrection will be all safe and secure in the Father's bosom/embrace.
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child to Him and set him in their midst,
v. 3 and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
v. 4 Therefore whoever shall humble himself like this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Daywalker,
re; God's form or no form?
My Greek/English has the following in Jn 5:37b.
"....Neither sound of him ever yet you have heard nor visible form of him you have seen"
It would seem that this wording does not necessarily prove that God utters sound or has a form that would be visible.
It just says that the reader or the person being spoken to has never heard God speak or seen God. It would include others as well.
Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.
The point of the text may be to discourage folks from thinking that God speaks to them audibly by vibrating the air as opposed to putting thoughts in their heart.
Also, consider maybe God communicates mind to mind in the full spiritual realm after we are changed.
Please comment, Indiana Bob
Hey Bob, thanks for sharing the Greek/English translation. The phrases "yet you have heard" and "you have seen" still stick out to me, though I do agree with you that:
Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.
As we have all learned, only with "two or three witnesses" can a truth be known. Whether or not The Father has some type of "spirit form" that can be seen with the eyes of a "spirit body" remains, at this time, up to interpretation (not that having a "spirit form/body" would in any way limit The Father, since we know He is everywhere). There's clearly a lot we don't yet know...but it's nice to have people with which to discuss these things without starting a quarrel. ;)
Godspeed....Daywalker 8)
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Hey Daywalker, much appreciated.
I'm 50 years older than you and retired so I have LOTS of time.
Plus my whole life is wrapped up in serving you brother. ::) ;D
Of course I don't know it all, so correction is expected.
However, please be gentle. Old people have brittle bones.
Indiana bob
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LOL...I'll do my best :D
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Hey Bob according to Alex I'm elderly and in my forties. I wonder what you are? Ancient? Indianabob BC?
Looking for my walker....
Craig
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Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image. It just seemed that He was too immense/glorious for that to me. But in the last Bible study what Ray was saying made me rethink this whole thing. Here is little part of the Bible study.
I'm with ya, Kat!
I don't believe the Father could be "contained" to a shape or form, but who's to say that He can't "appear" in a shape or form, like Jesus did several times after His resurrection? I mean, if Jesus is capable of walking the earth in human form, I would venture to say the Father could if He wanted to. I'm well aware that God is not a human, and no I don't believe the Father is 'an old man with a long grey beard' sitting on some throne somewhere in the celestials (LOL), but that doesn't mean He couldn't "appear" as one if He wanted to. As I said earlier, Jesus never said the Father had NO "voice" or "form". That doesn't belittle Him or 'reduce' Him one iota, in my opinion.
Sometimes, I think people let their imaginations run wild with all this "spiritual" stuff (meaning: spiritual beings, spiritual things). Just because "spirit beings" are invisible to us, doesn't mean they can't be visible ever, at all. Take angels and demons for example. I believe they exist. I can't see them, but I believe they are here. Can angels see each other? I think so. Can demons see each other? I think so. But how? Well, they must have a "form" of some sort that is visible to other spirit beings. How else would "Legion" have known that they "were many" if they couldn't see each other? When God spoke to Satan before Job's trials, could God see Satan? I think so. That would require Satan to have some sort of form, I venture. Could Satan see God? That's a good question, in my opinion. Jesus said no "man" has ever seen God at any time, but Satan is not a man, so perhaps he can see God?
Just speculation, I know. But things gotta make sense to me, and I don't see how the idea of us all being completely "invisible" not being able to see each other, interact with each other, can be of any comfort or joy. I'd like to think that when it's all said and done, we can all hang out together and chat about old times...that could just be my carnal side, though. :D
Just sayin... Daywalker 8)
What you said makes alot of sense daywalker! Some great points and I also agree with kat.
I can't imagine going an eternity without never trully seeing the Father, hearing HIS voice. For now, I'll deal with it, but comon.. you can't hold out on me forever!! xD <3
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Maybe we've already "seen" the Father. I'll use the quotation marks because Marques did.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
The fish is in the water. The water is in the fish. Jesus is the "everlasting (age-abiding) Father".
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Anyways, John chapter 14 is deep stuff, and the apostles didn't understand it either. Still, Jesus saith ..."because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed". One of these days, eyes are not going to matter. Blessed is he who is getting a taste of that now.
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Hi Dave,
That reminds me of the email I sent Ray a little while ago, I had ask that question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html --------
The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.
COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?
Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.
When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.
v
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
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Just thought I would add this to the discussion.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Dave in Tenn, that's a very valid point. I'm inclined to agree.
Kat, bless you for that mail excerpt; very illuminating.
Every blessing,
Grape
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Dave & Kat,
Most interesting comments. This subject is at the current limits of scriptural understanding. It is what Ray is looking into. Who or what is the Father and Jesus? How do they intersect? How are they One God? Endlessly fascinating. Where no man has gone before (except maybe Jesus).
John
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Here is a UTube clip about a boy who "sees" the answer....might this also be how we are each to see God within. We are the temple of God and within each one of us is potential unique to human race DNA and human being consciousness.
Today the USA launched its final space shuttle, Atlantis. The final frontier might not be physical space, but inner and outer space where image and God, converge.
Jesus said He and Father were one. Why can't we.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss
Arc
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Thank you so much, Arc, for that astounding link.
I'm inclined to your sentiments about the nature of consciousness.
I don't think we've even scratched the surface.
Grape x
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Hi Grape
If we knew how to switch on the dormant DNA...we'd fly! Jesus is the Light, and The Word of God, is a Science fact of GREAT meaning...~ :)
Only 10% of our DNA is being used for building proteins. It is this subset of DNA that is of interest to western researchers and is being examined and categorized. The other 90% are considered “junk DNA.” The Russian researchers, however, convinced that nature was not dumb, joined linguists and geneticists in a venture to explore those 90% of “junk DNA.” Their results, findings and conclusions are simply revolutionary! According to them, our DNA is not only responsible for the construction of our body but also serves as data storage and in communication. The Russian linguists found that the genetic code, especially in the apparently useless 90%, follows the same rules as all our human languages. To this end they compared the rules of syntax (the way in which words are put together to form phrases and sentences), semantics (the study of meaning in language forms) and the basic rules of grammar.
http://quantumpranx.wordpress.com/dna-can-be-influenced-and-reprogrammed-by-words-and-frequencies/
Arc
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Wow Arc, that's quite a link.
What an absorbing education!
Thank you so much.
Grape x
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To borrow a Craig expression, I think science and spirituality are “eating the same banana from opposite ends.”
Can’t wait till they meet in the middle.
The 'kiss' we’ve all been waiting for!
Grape
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I couldn't have said it better!
Thank you Grape and well said Dave!
Arc
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Hi Guys!
Just thinking of the origins of this site and the blessings we have been gifted with through Ray and Dennis; and thanks to this ministry and the debunking of religious superstition and myth,
I for one sleep a lot better, understanding through Ray, the awesome Love that Our Beautiful Father has toward all of His creation.
The living miracle that we call Ray, with a PSA that would kill a Blue Whale, continues to turn some very significant corners.
Neither is he afraid of including scientific back up for his considered arguments; not an association to be challenged 'out of hand'; he's no intellectual lightweight.
To date, I have not come across anyone in his league, of properly dividing the Logos. He is one, Gutsy Dude.
Thank you Ray for your love for us all, through the urgings of Our Father and for keeping this wonderful facility alive and in His Truth.
All of His Richest Blessings be upon you.
Grape x
PS. Thank you Marques, for the initiation of this thread. Good call Bro'.
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To borrow a Dave in Tenn expression, I think science and spirituality are “eating the same banana from opposite ends.”
Can’t wait till they meet in the middle.
The 'kiss' we’ve all been waiting for!
Grape
I don't recall having said that. I do think we have to watch out for false science with as much tenacity as we watch out for false spirituality, especially when they 'invent' one another or imitate one another or blend into one another chomping on a rotten banana.
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Re: Does God have 'Free Will'?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2011, 06:57:40 AM »
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Folks I'm going to lock this thread now because it is just one of those threads that there is no correct answer and how can we come to an agreement on that? Half fall in to the camp John was espousing and half with what Marques was pointing out. I personally think they are both right and I may someday get into politics . One may be right and one wrong or neither right or they both are right and they are just eating the same banana from opposite ends. The problem here is we are trying to assign human reasoning to God and that does not work. How can we, using our puny human terms and reasoning, try to define Gods sovereignty, reasoning and actions?
I appreciate the thread staying civil and respectful to each other. This is one of those discussions that we can agree to disagree on and discuss it one day while playing a harp on a cloud somewhere.
Craig
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Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings / Re: Mobile Conference 2007 ~ HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE
SCIENCE AND THE MYSTERIES OF GOD
There are so many magical things out there in science. It all goes down to these little things that you can’t see that we call atoms. But then the atom is made of other things. They are made of quartz and things. Then they’ve got alpha and beta quartz. So it just keeps going on and on.
Well it says that God created everything, out of that which does not appear. Yet when we look, the closer we go… Only now can science do that, it couldn’t do that 100 or 200 years ago, now they can.
It’s made out of stuff that once you take the atom apart it’s no longer solid material. Now it’s energy and has no specific shape and it starts to loose it’s weight. How much does a light ray weight?
Well there is another problem. Light is a beam, a particle beam and light is a wave. But it can’t be both, it’s got to be either a beam or a wave. Light is both. Scientist can’t figure it out, how can it be both? It just is, light is both. But it can’t be both, but it is. I mean there is a lot of mysteries out here.
The point is, God is behind it and God made it. He didn’t just make it though, it seems apparent now that He put wisdom into the material itself. Scientist are starting to see that the material itself contains it’s own wisdom. I didn’t say a brain. It doesn’t exactly have a brain, it has built in wisdom. It knows what to do under certain circumstances.
You say, ‘no it just reacts to laws.’ No, that’s what scientist always thought. They are seeing now that it’s way too complicated. What matter does or is capable of accomplishing when it is heated or cooled and interchanges and all that, is way beyond a law. It has it’s own wisdom built in.
It’s like the DNA molecule that tells a fetus what color eyes and hair and male or female. All that information was built into the DNA. The DNA molecule is the most crammed packed piece of intelligent information in the universe. No where in science or in the heavens or stars or mountains or rocks or volcanoes or anywhere is there so much knowledge and information crammed together, as in a DNA molecule. It is so incredible, scientist look at it and it almost scares them. They don’t know what they are seeing, it’s like something out of a science fiction movie. It’s just unbelievable. They thought it was rather simplistic, each one of those simplistic little motions are made up of a million computers. It’s like where does it end?
Some people are kind of afraid of science. But I’m telling you I’m just becoming more and more convinced, you know, bring it on, because it fits..........................
You say, ‘well we thought that God created the heavens and the earth 6000 years ago. Now you are telling us it’s more like 6 billion. My faith is crumbling.’ No, I’m going to build some of that faith back up. You are going to see this first chapter of Genesis falls right in line with what scientists are now seeing. It does not fall in line with what theologians have said for 2000 years. It does not. But it does fall in line with true science, it absolutely does.
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You can mix me up with Craig any time, but I don't know if Craig would appreciate the reverse. :D
Last comment.
These days, I can watch a science program or read an article and think on the 'whatsoever things are beautiful' apects of it--Arcturus' link a case in point. I still have to recognze that in all the branches of science there are not only new breakthroughs, but competing and sometimes contradictory theories...though not all, by a long shot. There are differences in thinking between scientists in cosmology, in general physics , in theoretical physics, in quantum mechanics, and in every active branch. They're not done yet...a point made by Grapehound. I'm not casting my lot 'by faith' with any of them, though it's 'fun' and even enriching to think about these things.
Of course I believe as Ray teaches that true science and scripture don't contradict, and that 'what is clearly seen' informs us about how God is working in His creation. I don't disagree with anything in the above quotation (except for the spelling of 'quarks' ;) ). I've learned not to recieve every teaching that comes along when it comes to spirituality. You're not going to find me in a pentacostal camp-meeting, for one example. Science has its own 'method' for determining what is true. That's what science IS--method. sci·en·tif·ic meth·od Noun: A method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
On many things, the jury is still out, and it seems premature to pronounce judgement on my own--who is not a jury-member--by 'faith' or 'feeling'. The one who thinks himself wise becomes a fool when he's shown he wasn't so wise after all. Just me talking, but even when it's hard to bear, I LIKE those moments that have happened in my life thus far. That's what this 'LIFE' thing is all about. :D
In the twilight zone of my life between believing that 'other gospel' and believing the Gospel, I saw a film called something like "Where the [bleep] are We?". It came out just as theories in quantum physics began to seep out of the scientists' symposiums and into the public's awareness. Even so close to these 'breakthroughs', there was a religion forming around it and a spokesperson for it...a bald-headed woman in robes, as I recall.
There is more light in the world than in religion. When religion enters the picture, everything turns dark. I don't like to debate science. I just try to understand it. I have no argument with anybody unless they believe that we should EMBRACE false science and false spirituality. That's not happening here.
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DNA/RNA are so divinely complicated and compact that I doubt God would make such "wonders" and then make 90% of DNA "junk".
I would rather think that it is valuable and useful but WE don't yet understand it. I was taught in H.S. that the appendix was an example of a "vestigial organ" (meaning an unnecessary organ) left over from the evolutionary process. We later learned that the
appendix had a definite purpose--years to come the "junk DNA" will find purpose also. God doesn't create junk!
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Hi Dave~ :)
We are still not finished metamorphosising into that pure and perfect image and presence, fully flooded by God Himself!’
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us...
It is absolutely delightful to see you put your best food forward that blesses and demonstrates your thinking capacity to discern matters of belief.
You pinpoint new direction with acute discernment that commands Satan get behind the rotten banana into the equation or false belief or fears of deception, for the light has got to shine!
Fear is a syndrome that puts paralysis into the realms of religion which you so astutely and learnedly present as being quote “There is more light in the world than in religion. When religion enters the picture, everything turns dark.” Unquote.
That’s when we come in...when everything turns dark! Perfect love casts out fear and here is where the fuzzy stuffing of loves soft underbelly has to show up not as bearing the teeth of a snarling wolf but as a true feeling of gratitude that we are not alone, we have brothers and sisters and God in His Great Wisdom made a Son and many sons and daughters to follow!
The bigger the love the bigger the family and I’m not talking about Angelina Jolie or Brad Pit!
Dave, I’ve never seen you looking so good. You have a wonderful ability to write and to edify with soundness of mind. that God makes everything that is beautiful and perfect of you and credit goes where credit is due.
As a daughter of God Himself, I can honestly say, I look for the sibling identity of Father in and of our Glorious Big Brother, in the likeness we bear to them. They are the givers and creators of our joys, abilities and skills and these are the points of their Light within US.
Did you see what Ray noted about LIGHT?
Science has found out that light is both a light wave AND a particle beam! I don’t intend to blow you away or take any particles out of anyone yet WOW...That's Science!..as in...
I am the Alpha AND the Omega....
You have talents, God made, God fashioned, God created tallents that shine in your presentation to the Forum.
The thing about salt...I’d rather be the Light of the world and join the Light in my brothers and sisters....salt is scattered. Light scatters the dark.. yet hey...consider this...that particle, the beam particle that Scientists have reported...might be the SALT!
Jesus did not declare Himself to be the "salt" but the LIGHT of the world....maybe we are salt morphing into LIGHT...being a pillar of salt is not good....not good at all...~ :D
You my dear brother are the light of the world.... Science agrees with Jesus and the Word of our Father agees!~ ;) :)
Arc
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Hi Duane
The faith and confidence that Father doesn't make mistakes or make junk, is a Hall Mark of His Light!
Way to go dear brother!
Arc
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Will we ever see the Father? I think and hope so, but this comment from Ray made me think.
So I’m not quite sure yet. You may say what does it matter and so on and so forth? Well to me it is really an interesting concept, to know the answer to it. You know they say familiarity breeds contempt and that certainly is true to a large extent on the human level.
Those that work around the president everyday, after a while they can lose that awe and respect. I don’t think most of his cabinet do, but you know it can happen. You can think I can see his problems, he’s just like us, he’s no better than us. Sort of an attitude.
As carnal humans I can see how we would have contempt for the Father if we could see Him. What about as spiritual sons and daughters of God without all the carnality?
I guess we'll just have to wait and "see". For now these are my greatest hopes.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
G.Driggs
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Dave in Tenn, I hear you Bro' and profound apologies for putting Craig's words in your mouth! :-[
Arc, explicit gratitude for finding the post ;D
Duane, thanks for your considerations, WTG. :)
G.Driggs, a valid question; and compare "When we see Him, we shall be like Him"?
Every Blessing,
Grape x
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You are more than welcome Grape ~ :)
Arc
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The original question was: "Will We Ever 'See' the Father?" I ran across this scripture last night. Jesus is speaking to His disciples - the sermon on the mount. In Matt. 5:8 He says "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
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This was a topic on
Will we see God ???
« on: October 02, 2010, 11:46:15 AM »
Answers are here, Bob
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Imanuel God with us?
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Hi thetruth,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Yes indeed Christ is God and as for the topic of this thread 'Wiil we ever 'see' the Father,' Christ answered that for us.
John 14:8 Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
v. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi thetruth,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Yes indeed Christ is God and as for the topic of this thread 'Wiil we ever 'see' the Father,' Christ answered that for us.
John 14:8 Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.
v. 9 Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
v. 7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on you know Him and have seen Him.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Let me see if I am getting this right.
If you see Jesus, then you see the Father.
The Words Jesus spoke were not Jesus' Words but the Father's.
The Works Jesus did were actually done by the Father.
One could conclude that They are One and the Same. That there are not two Gods but only One God, which is what the OT says.
The two witnesses, the Old Testament scriptures and the New Testament scriptures say the same thing.
It looks like God can chew gum and skip rope at the same time. He could run the universe (and beyond) while at the same time being on the earth as Jesus.
It appears Jesus the Word is how the Father represents Himself to His creation. The Word comes from the Father and it is by the Word that everything is created and maintained and saved.
I think all of us are going to have to retake God 101 again. We missed out a lot the first time around.
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Well yes that is what I was saying, it seem so simple when you put it like that.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I will put no horse in this race, I am happy just to know Jesus and His Father, the details will be made clear to all in due time. I just have one observation..this seems familiar like to the Oneness Pentecostals, the Jesus Only sect of Christendom. maybe some things are just too difficult to know. Like how electrons can be particles and waves both at one time... I do think the writer of Ecclesiastes had it just right when he said....
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
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The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Could be that statement applies very well to John 14:8 "Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us." and some of us these days. I always feel better in good company.
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Right on Dave! 8)
Rev 3:12 Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will go out no more. And I will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the NEW JERUSALEM, which comes down out of Heaven from My God, AND MY NEW NAME...
Rev 21:5 And He sitting on the throne said, BEHOLD, I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful.
What's anyone going to believe...the old or the new~ :D
Arc
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What just drives me nuts about the Father BEING Jesus, completely, is that Jesus said His Father is greater than Him, we also know Jesus has a beginning yet the Father does not. Jesus has got to be a seperate entity or being, maybe thats it.. maybe it isn't contradictive, like light being both a wave and a particle at the same time. Maybe Jesus is His own being but the Father is Jesus and the Father is also His own being. Two are one.
Maybe? DJklafjsd89fya89sdfuy My head hurts. lol.
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Hi Alex,
We know that the being that became known as Jesus Christ is God and did come out from the Father, because He said so.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world. Again I leave the world and go to the Father.
Jesus stated "I and the Father are one!" (John 10:30) In perfect unity of spirit and mind, an exact reflection of the Father.
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Jesus Christ came out of the Father to be His perfect Representative, as a image we can see, because God the Father is "invisible."
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God...
So when we see Jesus, we see the Father, as He was brought into being to exactly represent the Father, in every way an extension of Him. Though there was a point in time when Jesus came into being, whereas the Father has always existed.
I do not claim to have this all figured out, but at this point this is what I am thinking.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Great study folks, lots to consider and maybe even too much for me.
Two small points: John mentioned that Genesis says God made man in the image and likeness of God.\
I have read somewhere that the better translation would be that God is "making" man in His image.
If true that would indicate that we will be in His image when God is finished working with us and if so that would leave it open as to what God's image means as far as shape etc. It could mean loving character rather than having legs for mobility on the physical earth.
Second: someone wrote that familiarity could breed contempt if we were too close to the Father and the example of the men around the President was given. I don't believe that idea would apply to our view of or our relationship with God. God is so marvelous and having no beginning in time and so forth that we who had a beginning and are aware of it, would always be in awe of God no matter how close we became or how long we were in His presence.
Just my thoughts, Bob
I have always perceived the spiritual plane of existence to have form, colors, sounds etc. Nothing in our physical existence is better or exceeds spiritual existence.
The earthly things in the Tabernacle in the Wilderness were patterned after spiritual or heavenly forms.
The Cherubim in Ezechiel 1 have a form. Mankind in the earlier civilizations made images of the Cherubim similar to the descriptions in Ezechiel.
Yahweh allowed Moses to see his back parts and some of His glory, but not His face. If Yahweh had no form, what was the purpose of letting Moses think He had form?
Jesus was the express image of the Father. Jesus told one of His apostles that if he had seen Jesus then He had seen the Father. If you are the image of something, then that something must have some image too.
In Genesis, God made man in the image and likeness of God. As Ray has pointed out recently, the Hebrew words for image and likeness---mean image and likeness--not something formless.
Finally, when you cut through all the crap the various religions teach, the fundamental truth of the scriptures is that the Father is reproducing Himself after His Own Kind. What will God's children look like? Duh! Maybe like the Father? This basic form of mankind---a torso, two arms and hands, two legs and feet, a neck, and a head---there is something about this design--this is not the first time it has been to the rodeo--it is patterned from something else---I believe it is patterned after the Father, but this pattern, on the spiritual level, does not limit Him in any way.
And yes, one day, I believe we will see Him as He is. Where do I get this from? Here a little, there a little, line upon line---with the Spirit whispering in my ear.
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What ever you say ABOUT God, may POINT to God, yet, is not, and can not, BE God.
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The scientists religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that in comparison with it all systematic thinking of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of my life and work 8)....Albert Einstein
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FYI - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html
More food for thought...
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FYI - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html
More food for thought...
Ray says in the email;
"And since the Father is God,when we see the Father in Christ, we see God in Christ, WE SEE GOD. That may be as close as we ever come to actually seeing God. I will be covering this in more detail if I ever finish my paper: "Solving the Enigma fo God."
I hope the "seeing" in rays statement about God is the key word, in other words, seeing God with our PHYSICAL EYES as He is invisible spirit, as ray put it. I don't know how well it sits with me to believe I will never EVER see (whether with physical eyes or spiritual eyes) God, just mirror images of Him, for all eternity...
However ray does add the "close as we EVER" implying from my understanding, that we will never ever, with spiritual eyes, new bodies or physical eyes, see God... arggg
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You know Alex, I think God the Father considered this very feeling that you are having about not being able to 'see' Him... that is why He gave us Jesus Christ!
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I just want to raise a few points, then I'll shut up. I don't claim to have a depth of understanding or 'secret' information that nobody else has. I just want to 'testify'.
As I said earlier, the Trinity paper is not just to 'refute' Trinitarianism. There are truths about Father and Son in there that go far beyond that.
We've also been given a deeper and higher understanding of creation and of the role of the Son as Creator.
There are many other things in the other papers that Glorify the Son.
I don't mean to pound on anybody--as I said, I don't have the answers to perplexing Theological questions. But in my time on the forum, I've seen any number of posts that sound like either 1. Some left-over 'theo-illogical' assumptions about the Greatness of the Son or the relative significance of His creation (as if it were no more than creating an angel or a zebra). Or 2. some lessening of His stature as if one is in a hurry to 'meet' Jesus just so he/she can get access to the Father--like making friends with Chelsea Clinton just to meet Bill. Is that the way things are described? I don't think so.
Anyways, what Ray has promised in this paper is that many of us will never again look on the SON the same way. My reading of B-T and the opening of Scripture it has brought about has been preparing me for that. So I'll reiterate--maybe it's a good idea to refresh some understanding different from the theologies in the Trinity Paper, the Nashville '08 (and subsequent) materials, and other places too numerous to mention (and cumbersome to post links to) with a thought past the immediate 'exposing those who contradict' and towards the hearing of sound doctrine.
Sorry to be so preachy. I'm in this with all of you.
Shutting up now.
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Jesus said:
"I and the Father are one." John 10:30
"...He who has seen me has seen the Father..." John 14:9
When you are in a quiet place by yourself, ask God what these verses mean.
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Love, in all fullness, is all that needs to be. ;D
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I think the answer to this is Yes. However there are a few concepts that Im not sure about. We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue agaisnt all in all but ......
Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection......
Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??
Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !
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Hi Mavis,
Im not really sure I fully understand this concept of " all in all " yet ! I should actually say I dont have a clue as to what this is implying. Does it mean that that ALL will see ALL of God ? Im not sure !
I will just tell you how I see it. The elect will fully receive a new life in the Spirit at the first resurrection, now we just have the begettal.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give LIFE to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I believe when we receive this LIFE at the first resurrection is when we will fully be born into the kingdom and at that time we become all in God and perfectly One with God as Jesus is One with the Father.
John 17:20 And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
v. 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
So we are beginning to have this Oneness that Jesus has with the Father as we are now begotten with the Holy Spirit, but I believe when we are born into the kingdom, that it means we will be perfected and we will not sin anymore, we will be perfectly in tune with the Father's will, just like Jesus Christ is.
John 5:30 I can do nothing of My own self. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father who has sent Me.
So then I think those born into the kingdom will be all/wholly in God.
We know that God will be "all in all" but does that mean that each will apprehend the same ? Its kinda hard to argue against all in all but ......
Ray teaches that just because we shall " be like him " does not mean we shall be EXACTLY the same as him. I think that the glory of Christ will always be greater than anyones and I also feel that one star will always differ from another star in glory - So it is in the resurrection......
Yes I do believe that Christ will always have the identity of the first born and One we will look up to. I don't think we will loose our identities either, in spirit we will all be together in perfect harmony and Oneness. But as Ray was talking about in his latest paper, we would all still have our own individuality, as it seems that is the purpose of this life, He gives us this great variety of life experiences, to create in us uniqueness and individual character traits for a purpose. Just think about it, God does not make anything in vain, with such a variety of personalities and abilities God is creating an army to serve every need that might arise in the judgment of the rest of mankind in the LOF.
When all things in heaven and earth are perfected in judgment and then they too will be brought into this Oneness with God. Then when every last one has reached this Onesness with God, He will be all/wholly in all.
1Cor 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
Will some see and apprehend Christ and His Father more than others after God is " all in all " ??
I think we have just 'began' to apprehend who and what God is when He gave us the Holy Spirit indwelling while we are still in this flesh, but we are greatly limited in what we can know. So then at resurrection into the kingdom we will of course be brought to another much higher level of understanding.
But consider this. God 'the Father' is an eternal being, what does eternal mean? I don't think we can know that, but we do understand He always existed, but do we think this eternal being was always in the form of a man?
At some point God birthed wisdom and has perfect knowledge and the concept that there is right and wrong and that He would be perfectly righteous. Then at some point He determined to make a creation and He used this wisdom He had so painfully developed to decide on this incredible intricate and wonderful form of a man to make beings into in this creation.
This God was a Being that had always lived, we know from Jesus Christ somewhat of who this God is, He does tell us He exists. But Jesus tells us we can not see Him or hear His voice, because He is invisible, that's what this eternal Being is invisible Spirit. I don't think we can comprehend that.
So this God decided to have a creation and He thought it all the way through first and He knew there would need to be some One that these beings, that would be created, could relate to and look too and worship, but He was invisible, and He knew it would literally be impossible for a physical created being to relate to Him as He was. So why didn't He just make Himself visible, so we could see Him? He DID and that is where Jesus Christ comes in, at least He is a perfect representation of the Father.
Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
He is what the eternal Being designed and brought forth in an image of a man, He is "the first-born" in the image of a man, so when all the beings to come were created they would have this God to relate to.
Well I kind of got carried away there, but I hope something I said might help.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank You Kat. This was very helpful.
I believe you are correct that we all maintain our individuality. What I do not believe is true is that we all see God and know God the same. All of our experiences build our personality and therefore we all would view God individually.
1John 3:2 says as we see Him we shall be like Him. Philip 2:8,9 says that because of Jesus obedience God has HIGHLY EXALTED HIM. I do not think that is any different for any of us as individuals. As we see Christ, even now in these earthern vessels we shall be like Him. The more, Lord willing we lower ourselves and die to the flesh and serve one another the higher God will exalt us. He that is greatest among you shall be your servant ! If we carry this concept into the ressurection Christ has been EXALTED and given a name above every name ! When Paul says one star differs from another star in glory so it will be in the ressurection I would think that one who pushed on to know the power of Christs ressurection would be exalted to a higher name than another who was apprehended for less. There both part of one body but a Colonel sees and knows the General at a different understanding than a soilder even though God loves and cares for them both the same.
Than again I could be insane !
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To tune in, a little, may I say, Kat and mavis92379, you are both correct as light, that can be both a particle and wave. ;D
The mortal, human, thinking mind, is not unique merely through limitation, but also is made so, through originality.
Limits need not be the only criteria to make one different to another, or higher or lower in prestige. Like one might have limits in understanding and another might have excessive skills in mathematics to draw a literal comparison. Yet notice, throughout humanity, consciousness has been rising to higher levels of consciousness OF God, as God demonstrates in us, through us and as us, His benevolent formlessness and Spirit of Love and Truth that subjugates death beneath our feet as we find and discover to our amazement, that our names are written in Heaven....whew...all in One Breath!
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Kat that was beautifully put!! I Loved the way you worded it all. I feel like the apostles when they said, Will you not show us plainly of the Father? And Jesus said... If you have seen me, you have seen the Father!
I honestly had this wide eyed opening moment where these very words ran through my head...
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
It was as if I could hear our Lords voice.. wow.. It all makes sense now!
Thanks again Kat!
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Mavis, we can all be insane in this together, LOL ;D
Well Deb when you put it like that, I would have to agree.
That is wonderful Alex.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Mavis, we can all be insane in this together, LOL ;D
Well Deb when you put it like that, I would have to agree.
That is wonderful Alex.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I stole your post and plastered it on facebook btw, i thought it was very powerful and just had to share with whoever would happen to read. Hope you don't mind, credit was given where it was due, of course =]
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Okay ALex, don't think I'm ready for facebook notoriety yet LOL ;D But if God provides the way for one person to be reached, who am I to say anything else.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Okay ALex, don't think I'm ready for facebook notoriety yet LOL ;D But if God provides the way for one person to be reached, who am I to say anything else.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Ah don't worry, i got a fly swatter you can borrow incase any of those fans get out of hand!!! ;D ;)
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Okay, I just read this verse and I've never seen it before and just a thought. Even though se see in Genesis, "Let US make..." and a couple other times in genesis; but THIS verse, I see the Father AND the Son..."in the morning you shall see the glory of the Lord, for He hears your murmurings against the Lord. FOR WHAT ARE WE, THAT YOU MURMUR AGAINST US" (Exodus 16:7). So why hasn't the Father and Son (Jesus) being ONE LORD(Yahweh/Jehovah) been solved yet. Two in one. What's wrong with that?? Its practically what Jesus is saying. And He cannotbe the Father at the same time while he's the son and he says US.
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"Let US make..." and a couple other times in genesis; but THIS verse, I see the Father AND the Son..."in the morning you shall see the glory of the Lord, for He hears your murmurings against the Lord. FOR WHAT ARE WE, THAT YOU MURMUR AGAINST US" (Exodus 16:7). So why hasn't the Father and Son (Jesus) being ONE LORD(Yahweh/Jehovah) been solved yet. Two in one. What's wrong with that??
Well I guess if this enigma a difficult thing for Ray to put together with Scriptural support and no contradictions, then certainly I can not explain it all out, that's for sure.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Nope nope; cause Deuteronomy 6:4 reveals that: "hear, O Israel! YAHWEH (or the Yahweh, how ray put it)is our ELOHIM, Yahweh (or the Yahweh) IS ONE". Now its truly on this site that its pointed out that JESUS is The YAHWEH of the Scriptures, which I still don't put together but I'm not far from it. Because ELOHIM and YAHWEH are used seperate in Scripture. Now Kate you know that Elohim is used in the Plural and how else would RAY explain where it says US in Genesis a couple of times and that Exodus. AND the ONENESS and at the same time "OBVIOUS" plurality is found in Scriptures like this, "that they all may be one, just as WE ARE ONE; I in them and YOU IN ME (do we all see that?)...so that the world may know that You SENT ME, and loved them, even as You have loved me" (John 17:22-23) and "I and the Father are one (in essence, spirit however u take it) but word usage gives us "I" AND the Father". I see he didn't use The Yahweh or God: but the Father. And its the Jews who were beginning to stone Jesus for "making himself out [to be] God. He didn't even deny their claim. He says, "do you say of Him, whom the Father (NOT GOD, very important) sanctified and sent into the world, you are blaspheming, because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD?" THEN goes on to say "that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father." (John 10:30-38). Now that does not reveal TWO Gods but a duality consisting of one God. Not saying I agree everything of a binity or whatever. doctrine it claims to be. No not two Gods. Shema says Yahweh or Elohim is ONE YAHWEH. And that agrees with acts when peter said, "but put TO DEATH the Prince of Life, WHOM GOD RAISED FROM THE DEAD" (3:15). Jesus says He was the Son of God, the Son of the Father: He was put to death (can the Father Die?? No, Jesus is not the Fathr). Oh I think this concept has been made harder than it is. I obviously see NO trinity (I see that's obsurd) and No two Gods. And we can't contradict "Let us...", "what are we that u murmur against us" we can't contradict those. And Jesus speaking of Him and His Father. And that he was Human, man, id better yet, "though he were a Son, He learned obedience through the things which suffered"(Heb5:8) and he PRAYED. He was man, God WITH US. And that would also explain, "THIS JESUS GOD RAISED UP AGAIN ...." (Acts2:32). And quotes a obvious DUAL Scripture and explains it, "Therefore let all Israel know for certain that God has MADE HIM BOTH LORD AND CHRIST - THIS JESUS WHOM YOU CRUCIFIED" verse34-36. Whatever papaer ray is putting together he can't deny the many verses in acts which boldly state, "Jesus the Nazerene, a man attested to you BY GOD...which GOD PERFORMED Through Him". Ahhhh it slowly begins making sense to me. Hebrews reveal the Son as God as well, "...therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You..."(Heb1:8-9). Still not TWO GODS just One Essence, Plural God because of the Honest usage of Elohim (PLURALITY) and the Oneness of Yahweh. Not to just jump out and yell Duality but dang, Did Jesus not say Him and the Father. Now unless Ray goes against those scriptures and still proclaim somehow that Jesus and the Father are connected some other way; then I am forever lost. Cause I only see what scripture sees, "I will be a Father to Him and He shall be a Son to Me" (Heb1:5). And someone else pointed out Ephesians 5:31-32, "and the TWO (husband and wife) shall become ONE flesh. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christian and the church. So the concept of Two being one is used...why isit thrown out when it implies the Father and Son when Hebrews 1 still stands???
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Now unless Ray goes against those scriptures and still proclaim somehow that Jesus and the Father are connected some other way; then I am forever lost.
The relationship between the Father and Jesus is truly a fascinating subject and is obviously "deeper" than we ever imagined! :)
Ray introduced an interesting word when speaking on this subject in his email entitled "olam and ad; an inquiry::
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13773.0.html
And so all of the Scriptures harmonize and agree if we get rid of all that "for ever and ever and ever" nonsense. Jesus
reigns by incarnation for a period of time. He reigns with all of the power, dignity, and character, of God Almighty. This
includes being a "Father" to the nations of the world. Jesus said: "When you see me you see THE FATHER." The Father
is God. And so Jesus could have just as well said: "When you see Me YOU SEE GOD!" Why not? The "Father" IS God.
How can we see God the Father (in the incarnation of Jesus) if the Father is not God? So when we see God, we see
the Father (but only through incarnation, seeing that the Father God is INVISIBLE SPIRIT). And since the Father is God,
when we see the Father in Christ, we see God in Christ, WE SEE GOD. That may be as close as we ever come to
actually seeing God. I will be covering this in more detail if I ever finish my paper: "Solving the Enigma of God."
God be with you,
Ray
The definition of "incarnation" (Merriam-Webster Dictionary):
a (1): the embodiment of a deity or spirit in some earthly form (2): the union of divinity with humanity in Jesus Christ
This gave me something else to consider as I am also trying to understand this amazing relationship. :)
René
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GLORIOUS RENE. Thank you for that
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Hi folks - sorry to jump late on this thread....but I gotta say (and I've grumbled to the Lord about this) I can't be alone in thinking this (tell me I'm not alone people!)...where was I...oh yeah, complaining..
What frustrates me most about this whole Nature of God stuff (apart for impatiently waiting for Rays article) is this - Is knowing God REALLY THAT FLAMING COMPLICATED!? Lol! I mean, Did Paul have the answer? Did any of the disciples? Did the early church get it and now centuries on we've lost it. Is God's Word such a riddle that no-one understands who he is..I mean truth be told as far as apostate Christianity goes, God ain't telling no-one in a hurry apart from a very, very select few...see where I'm coming from? Why oh why Lord, the mystery, the enigma - how many/few have actually worshiped in Spirit and in truth(not that I'm suggesting an Occam's Razor approach here) but really??? Right - that feels better.
I'm off to bed, brow furrowed!
J.D.
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Hi folks - sorry to jump late on this thread....but I gotta say (and I've grumbled to the Lord about this) I can't be alone in thinking this (tell me I'm not alone people!)...where was I...oh yeah, complaining..
What frustrates me most about this whole Nature of God stuff (apart for impatiently waiting for Rays article) is this - Is knowing God REALLY THAT FLAMING COMPLICATED!? Lol! I mean, Did Paul have the answer? Did any of the disciples? Did the early church get it and now centuries on we've lost it. Is God's Word such a riddle that no-one understands who he is..I mean truth be told as far as apostate Christianity goes, God ain't telling no-one in a hurry apart from a very, very select few...see where I'm coming from? Why oh why Lord, the mystery, the enigma - how many/few have actually worshiped in Spirit and in truth(not that I'm suggesting an Occam's Razor approach here) but really??? Right - that feels better.
I'm off to bed, brow furrowed!
J.D.
Too funny~lol Dats right!
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Hi JD,
What frustrates me most about this whole Nature of God stuff (apart for impatiently waiting for Rays article) is this - Is knowing God REALLY THAT FLAMING COMPLICATED!? Lol! I mean, Did Paul have the answer? Did any of the disciples? Did the early church get it and now centuries on we've lost it.
I have wondered that very thing. I certainly believe the Paul and the Apostles understood the nature of God. I have to believe that they gained that understanding from the time they spent with Jesus, but it may not have been fully understood until later on. But they certainly spoke in the Scriptures clearly of these things. But down through the generations it seems that Believers make have been so scathered and few... but we do know there was some believers to carry the truth forwards in every generation. But we are so blessed at this time that we can discuss these things with people all over the world and certainly have an increase of knowledge.
Dan 12:4 But you, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Maybe God is bringing out more Believers at this time, and this increase of knowledge coincides with that (intentionally), so that we can benefit.
Why oh why Lord, the mystery, the enigma - how many/few have actually worshiped in Spirit and in truth(not that I'm suggesting an Occam's Razor approach here) but really???
This enigma of God's nature must be a mystery, because the world does not and cannot know Him in this age. But maybe there is a rejuvenation of His truth and that is what we are experiencing in this generation. Just some thoughts.
mercy, peace and love
Kat