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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Truth101 on December 30, 2007, 09:09:32 AM
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Hi all.
I just wanted to share something that helped me with my understanding and studies.
After coming to bible truths and studying everything I could get my eyes on for the first year my mind was exploding with knowledge. The funny thing is God opened up the windows of heaven on me and poured out His spirit like I never experienced and this was just amazing but, I found myself in a rut for awhile. I had so much on my mind I couldnt get it all straight as far as seeking more understanding. I just didnt know what other questions to ask and things kinda went stale on me.
I didnt know what to do with it all. This is when I found myself going to christian forums and debating with anyone and everyone who would take a stab at me. While going through this I somehow knew this wasnt what it was about, but it was all I knew to do.
In hindsight I realize that it was a nessessary step in my coming out of babylon. If I didnt join these debates I would have less than half the understanding I have now.
My reasoning...! It is through these debates that I was challenged in many ways to prove the truth. It caused me to seek out the scriptures like never in my life to give scriptural proof of my belief. In other words I read everything Ray had to offer in literature but without diligently searching these things out my only weapon was that of another. At first al my answers seemed to be just a repeat of what Ray had spoken and nothing more.
Needless to say I got stumped quite a few times which caused me to seek as far as I could to find these answers...and I did. Everytime without fail God carried me in my studies and I would leave these people with nothing more than to insult me with name calling merely attacking my person rather than the truth that I shared with them.
I believe wholeheartedly that God used this debating method to cause me to diligently seek His truth deeper. God wants us to learn certain things in certain orders. For example He drags us from babylon by first exposing her deception by giving us truth (using Ray to do this) than He causes us to seek out those truths even deeper by whatever catalist (for me it was debating as well as many others I see). Next the purging the carnal nature from us (a life experience im sure).
For me debating helped me learn more than I would have never debating by a long shot. It caused me to gain a vast amount of understanding of the message God has given to Ray to give to us.
One more thing I must say in addition to the above before leaving this to you for discussion is, Although debating has helped me a great deal in diligently seeking and studying it stil remains that the whole debating factor is one motivated more by pride than it is by compassion on those you are debating. It is still another means in which to devour another. I have learned to share with these people instead of argue. I have also learned to be humble and slow to speak when approaching them due to their easily ruffled feathers. Infact, being human and all, I admit my feathers still get ruffled myself. Its been more than a year since debating with them. I guess I m waiting on the Lord to make me a better person when discussing with them and for the right reasons.
God bless,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I can see your point. God leads us in different ways to gain knowledge of His Truth. For you it was debating other Christains. For me I have gained the same thing right here :)
When I am seeking to help someone with a question I go to the Scripture. I do use Ray's articles a lot, because he has it already put in very good detail, the answers to questions that are ask.
But I guess there are many different ways one may be lead to study the Scriptures; questions here, debates in other forum, or discussions with a friends or family. Whichever way God is leading you through this process of growth and learning it is for the good.
I read this Scripture just yesterday.
2Tim 2:23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
v. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
v. 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
v. 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I had a very similar experience, Truth101. I grew up in a Christian school, and it wasn't until High School (when I entered Public School) that I began to be attacked/questioned/disputed. It was that experience that caused me to learn as much as I could about Scripture and Apologetics. I took to debating and discussing things online, and I freely admit a lot of my debates early on were fueled with less than Godly intentions. But the Lord did use them to teach me a lot of things, to come to much understanding, and to make a big difference. Since then, my outlook and methodology and even the intent of my heart has changed drastically.
However I must digress in that in my experience, as long as one maintains their composure (even if the opposition becomes venomous), much good can come out of these debates. It's certainly true that the person you're debating may retreat into themselves and refuse the advice and information you offer, but in most forums, there are a whole lot of people that are reading the topic that aren't posting in it. I've had dozens of people from all over the world contact me outside of the forum to thank me for what I said, that they've decided to start reading Scripture again, that it made them re-think their perceptions of Christianity, etc etc. The Lord can do some amazing things through the internet and debates, I mean, look at Bible Truths.com. The internet is such a wonderful tool. Just think if the internet existed in the time of Apostle Paul or even Christ and what wonders the Lord could have done.
Anyway, there are just so many people out there that haven't taken the time to read Scripture for themselves, and are mislead by clergy, by media, by satire, by detractors. There are so many misconceptions and faulty teachings regarding our Faith. And if you address these misconceptions firmly but with compassion and clear demonstration of the evidence and truth, I've seen even the most staunch, militant atheists go "whoa..you know, there may be something to this Jesus thing after all."
I agree that shouting at each other and quarreling does no one any good, and that it's something a servant of the Lord should avoid. However, if the Lord allows you to maintain your composure and civility and compassion in your heart, there is SO much good that can come of such debates and discussions (as verses 25-26 in the passage Kat quoted say).
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Yes, "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:"
Thankfully though our moderators have the wisdom to keep this forum debate free.
:)
Bobby
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Good posts,
Kat,
I agree totally. One of the reasons I had to resort to debating was because there was no BT forum at that time. I had no where to go to share what I was given except family. After being a Christian for 22 years and a youth pastor for a year after learning of these truths I was exploding inside with excitement. I had to go anywhere and everywhere to proclaim :).
Not much different from the demon posessed man whom Jesus delivered went running through the streets exploding with joy over being released from his demons. He was made physically whole by Christ and he was crazy with joy. I experienced something that I was consciously waiting for literally my whole life. I say this because I was mentaly tormented as a little guy (3-4 years old on until I was roughly 18 years old. Let me explain....
When I was 3 I remember living on a farm and my dad bought me a puppy. There were a bunch of little kids maybe just a couple years older than me who decided to attempt to drown the puppy in an old rain barrel on the side of the house. My torment started at that point. They never managed to drown the dog because I climbed up the step to take the lid off the barrel to free him. I remember them yelling at me to leave it but I ignored them.
Im not going to go into a long history of violent things I witnessed in my life but I will tell you my view of people from that point on only got worse and worse. my heart was not able to tolerate this violence and cruelty so I became suicidal as I said until I was 18. I just could not understand why anyone would want to hurt another living thing wether animal or human. My mind just didnt get it. I felt so strong that if this was the way life was....I want no part of it whatsoever. I made no cries for help, no hints at my condition whatsover. And this from when I was 3 on. It wasnt until I was 15 that I could not take any more. After reading some of the bible and being told about hell and all that junk I planned and purposed to end it. It worked and I was almost gone when my mother came home a little too early and revived me.
This torment was completely lifted off me after studying bible truths. This is why the huge explosion for me. These were conscious answers I needed. I was literally set free and given those eyes I longed for to see WHY...WHY...WHY. I know the joy of that demon possessed man.
Although I am far from being made whole I now know that God gave me this very heart that was so soft it broke so early in my life only for God to later come in and prove to me that it was all His plan for me. And if I am in His plan I know he loves me and will never leave me no matter how bad things get.
Maybe I went a little too far here with an explaination but I felt an urge to give a little testimony.
Arthyron, I concur completely. Although many refused to even acknowledge truth when it was right in their face there were others who did contact me privately enquiring of the source in which I recieved this understanding. Some even asked for my email address and I spoke with them over a period of months as they also explored bible truths.com.
And yes, the quareling is not a Godly way of sharing. I have learned that when I discuss these things with others to do it in meekness and humility. It is when they see you as Christ like with words of wisdom that they will approach you. I admit at first I went in to share with a great joy but when my joy was trampled on I became vindictively hostle toward them and learned quickly that this is not the way to share the good news. When I came to understand the aggressive method didnt work at all I prayed alot and changed the way I shared with them and that is when I started getting more solid interest from them.
Its taking me alot to actually hit the post button right now because of the personal issues contained but here it goes :)
God Bless,
Dave
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What a powerful testimony, my friend. I know it must have been difficult, but thanks for sharing that! :) It's good to see the Lord working in the lives of others as well as your own (and it's neat when the Lord allows you to meet people with similar experiences).
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"Now He Who is confirming us together with you in Christ, and anoints us, is God,
Who also seals us and is giving the earnest of the spirit in our hearts" (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)
In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise…(which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured)…for the laud of His glory! (Ephesians 1:13-14)
And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance. Let all bitterness and fury and anger and clamor and calumny be taken away from you with all malice, yet become kind to one another, tenderly compassionate, dealing graciously among yourselves, according as God also, in Christ, deals graciously with you. (Ephesians 4:30-32)
Truly amazing, if you, think about it!
JER
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To follow up on what you have posted jER
Rev 22 : 11 He who is unrighteous, unjust, wicked, let him be unrighteous still; and he who is filthy, vile, impure, let him be filthy still; and he who is righteous, just, upright, in right standing whith God, let him do right still; and he who is holy, let him be holy still.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I am so greatful to now know Gods plan is an exact plan that will be accomplished exactly as He has purposed.
The earnest of the spirit....yes.... I recieved that when my torment was lifted from me and I was free'd. Amazing what a LITTLE hope from God can accomplish in ones miserable LITTLE existance.
Praise God and to Him all the glory.
Dave
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Dear 101
Paul went to the synagogues to do what? Definitely not to worship. Probably to teach, maybe to debate as in Acts 17.
Debating can be good. I'd like to see your next one, bibletruths vs doctrine of man. Maybe a seed would be planted.
Having to defend what we have learned makes us know what we believe. This is an interesting and exciting and passion filled journey.
Askseeknock
Charles O
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Truth101, your torment resonates with my own past, so thank you for sharing your experiences. :)
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Truth101, your torment resonates with my own past, so thank you for sharing your experiences. :)
Your very welcome. I feel very comfortable to talk about anything on this forum. The people are great and very understanding. The biggest thing of all......we're all of one spirit, of one accord each in a different point of growth. Thats what makes it a great place to learn. I'm just a guy on the bottom of the totem pole (of understanding) and hope I can contribute a little here and there as God feeds me.
God Bless,
Dave
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To follow up on what you have posted jER
Rev 22 : 11 He who is unrighteous, unjust, wicked, let him be unrighteous still; and he who is filthy, vile, impure, let him be filthy still; and he who is righteous, just, upright, in right standing whith God, let him do right still; and he who is holy, let him be holy still.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
what if i dont wanna be ""filthy still"" what if i dont wanna be ""impure still"" :P :-X :'(
chuckt
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Greetings To You All in the Holy name Of Christ our Lord!
Dear Dave,
Thank you for sharing your heart with us. That is exactly why I chose to join BT forum.
It is very clear that you struggled much to share these events with us. I believe in doing so, someone is going to be blessed (maybe many?) with the ability to share their heart(s), but have been holding back for some reason.
It is often very hard for me, sometimes, to equate all evil (which our Lord God created) is working it's terrible deed(s) in the wondrous and perfect will/plan of our ALL KNOWING God! "His will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Thankfully, I have been shown this is true and faithful. Praise God! :)
I am so moved with joy and an inner peace, even in my hour of struggle, just reading the the replies.
I am so very thankful to God and each one of you for blessing me.
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Hi chuckt
The verse from Revelations says let him be....let him be...let him be...
There is one let him do! :)
I believe this is what Ray also teaches in his Winning Souls for Jesus paper at http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
Also the repentance transcript is clear to look at ourselves in judgment, come to hate our sins and rely on the faith of Jesus Christ.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi chuckt
The verse from Revelations says let him be....let him be...let him be...
There is one let him do! :)
I believe this is what Ray also teaches in his Winning Souls for Jesus paper at http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm
Also the repentance transcript is clear to look at ourselves in judgment, come to hate our sins and rely on the faith of Jesus Christ.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
Greetings!
and blessings this yr to all.
thank you for the reply.
everytime i think im crushed i get crushed more :P yes i see the futility of self more and more.
and interesting you mention the faith OF Christ
lots there i think many miss , but i am trusting in HIS faith and lean not on my own.
God bless ya!!
chuckt
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Hi chuckt
I am happy you got something from quote : the faith OF Christ. Not our own faith but HIS. There is a massive difference! I too was really flabbergasted when I found this teaching via BT and it was revealed.
Galatians 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
Peace to you brother
Arcturus :)
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Hi chuckt
I am happy you got something from quote : the faith OF Christ. Not our own faith but HIS. There is a massive difference! I too was really flabbergasted when I found this teaching via BT and it was revealed.
Galatians 2 : 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.
Peace to you brother
Arcturus :)
I dont remember when or where i first came across the faith OF christ, but again recently saw it mentioned in a dvd and BAM
it came alive, now im seeing it all over the place in scripture, guess i was made ready for it :o
God is awsome in ALL his ways!
blessings my friend!
chuckt
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Hi Dave (Truth101),
Thank you for sharing your testimony. It really touched my heart.
Ursula
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God is awsome in ALL his ways!
AMEN to that chuckt
Peace be to you friend
Arcturus :)
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Hi Dave (Truth101),
Thank you for sharing your testimony. It really touched my heart.
Ursula
Hi Ursula, I'm only honored to be able to share with people who actually take the time to even care about such things. I really didnt expect it to be such a touching thing but if people are relating to it than I can understand why it has an impact.
Praise God for His subtle movement among His Children.
God Bless,
Dave
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To Arthyron,
Good point about maintaining your composure without resorting to shouting and even personal attachs, sometimes thats' easier said then done, thats where the saying "know thyself" and a mans' got to know his limitations" comes in. For me writing ones points,opinions and position on a subject is much easier than direct face to face confrontation. I have a low tolerance level for the arrogant, self-righteous and those that resort to a mocking laugh towards me. Something God will probably use to refine my character with, no doubt. Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, of this I'm sure Satan is aware of. My usual reaction in a case of those who resort to personal defamation(An Ad Hominem attack) and with their mocking taunts is to remove myself from the situation as soon as possible remembering Romans.12:17-21 and Matthew.5:44,45. May the peace of God that excels all thought be with you Brother, Yours, Samson.
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Well said, Arthyron! :)
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Samson
The scriptures you have quoted are not only for Arthyron. ;D :D They were so beautiful, encouraging and a blessing to read again.
Peace be to you brother
Arcturus :)
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Truth101,
Thank you for sharing your past experiences. I too understand torment. I was at a point where I was in deep depression over the doctrine of hell. Being in a church and hearing all the things about being saved, and such, I also read the scriptures with that template of hell in the balance.
As I read the scriptures thinking that people better than me (as we are led to believe in most churches) understood these things I had little choice at the time but to think hell was real and so frightening. Being determined to read the bible on my own I soon realized that from the scriptures, if hell was real, I saw no possible way of escape. Saying I was saved, even though thats something people do, was not enough. I could never measure up to the standard of really being saved. Christians tried to assure me that I was forgiven because I asked for it, but then I soon realized that often I was not sorry, and I couldn't think to myself enough that I really was sorry. Some things sure I came to be different about, but what if I died not actually being sorry for a sin. How could I possibly be forgiven?
I was in this torment most of my life. I am 43 and only in the last 3 years have I been set free, I try to tell so many people and few really want to listen. But that is ok, because now I know that it is not up to me or them and mercy from God is the greatest gift to mankind and everyone will one day know it.
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Truth 101
Thank you for your powerful testimony. One of my favorite uplifting scriptural passages is Philippians 2:13. "For it is GOD which worketh in you both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure". It is all of HIM! For that I am so thankful.
Phil 3:10
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Hi all.
Im very happy everyone found something to relate to in that testimony. It makes me more confident in the power of testimony. The fact that we all have similar experiences in our lives here on BTF makes me happy to know we are all coming FROM the same place and TO the same place which is in the light of God.
God Bless.
Dave