bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: josh on May 30, 2006, 07:56:01 PM
-
Ok, so today I am reading through the book of Zechariah and come across a passage where a man (Angel? Metaphor? Symbol?) attempts to measure Jerusalem, to see the breadth and length… this seems to be literal until an angel goes out to meet him and says that Jerusalem will be a city inhabited without walls, or I believe it is saying that Jerusalem will not be a geographical location, but rather a chosen people scattered across the earth. But then there seems to be a calling out… out of Babylon(world? Church?)…
While reading this passage I recalled Revelations 21, where Jerusalem, the Holy City, is showed to John as “the bride.� This angel then begins to measure the city and the text gives actual measurements (this seems to be more literal, despite that I understand that revelations is a book of symbols)… even still, it seems as this time (whether the measurements are literal or symbolic) the city is able to be measured… or in other words, the city now has walls (limits? completion?)
Now here is two portions of scripture that present the city of Jerusalem, in the first instance the city is “immeasurable� but the second occurrence, specific measurements are given (something has occurred to cause this change) is this the end of the this current age?
Here are the texts I am referring to:
Zechariah 1:16-2:7
Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem. Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns. And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem. And the LORD shewed me four carpenters. Then said I, What come these to do? And he spake, saying, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, so that no man did lift up his head: but these are come to fray them, to cast out the horns of the Gentiles, which lifted up their horn over the land of Judah to scatter it.
I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand. Then said I, Whither goest thou? And he said unto me, To measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth thereof, and what is the length thereof. And, behold, the angel that talked with me went forth, and another angel went out to meet him, And said unto him, Run, speak to this young man, saying, Jerusalem shall be inhabited as towns without walls for the multitude of men and cattle therein: For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Revelation 21:1-3, 9-10,
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
Any thoughts?
-
Josh, I would like to write alot but I think that might not be a good idea. These are "symbols" they signify and are the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Listen to how this is worded (knowing in Revelation, He states He has sent His Angel (which is a "Messenger" and a flame of fire)
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will SEND MY MESSENGER, and he shall prepare the way before me: and THE LORD :idea: whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, EVEN THE MESSENGER :idea: of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Note THE WALL[/b] is MEASURED, its not a what but a WHO.
Zach 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her A WALL of FIRE round about, and will be the GLORY in the midst of her.[/u] Rev 21:11 Her HAVING the GLORY of God is Christ in her, he is THAT stone.
It ALL speaks of Jesus Christ, its a revelation of Him who shows us the Father, through Him.
Rev 21:7 And he MEASURED THE WALL "thereof", an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the MEASURE OF A MAN , that is, of THE ANGEL.
The WALL (being HIM) is measured in cubits
Mathew 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one CUBIT unto HIS STATURE? (God ADDS and increases)
Ephesian 4:13 TILL we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, UNTO THE MEASURE of the STATURE of the FULNESS OF CHRIST:[/u]
Gal 4:14... but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.[/u]
Words to look at are what God adds, multiplies and makes "equal to"
Theres much more on without measure, immeasurable without measure etc. Paul uses words concerning "measure" and how these pertain to Christ our salvation. For example one quick one to show two sides to one coin (there always is). We are "measured" a measure of faith. Christ has the Spirit without measure. We are to "grow up" in HIM and the full measure of Christ, then... I would ask, if then does God gives us the spirit without measure? See? They truly are a revelation of Him and Christ in uus is our hope of Glory, thats why He is the glory within her and the very wall of fire round about. Paul speaks of comprehending the height, breadth, width and depth of the love of God in Christ. At some point the typing must need to end completely because it will surpass knowledge and I'm thinking, " immeasurable". Thats what I'm thinking. I'll stop there if you add too much it becomes unreadable. Theres much much more in this though, I can't write well, thats not a strength of mine, forgive me :oops:
Daniel
-
Hi Josh---------
4 is the number of the whole
12 is the number of strong spiritual foundation
144 is 12 squared
my thoughts are this----in revalations we have the strongest spiritual foundation,The Rock,which is Christ on which that Jerusalem will stand
Just as a tree is known by his fruit so a house or city is known by it's dwellers.Is a church the house of God?Only if His people are there.If they are not then it is not a church it is babylon.Is Jarusalem God's city--If His people are not there then it is sodom.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Folks God dwells in the hearts of men.Those mansions are not FOR us,they ARE us
much love-----------knuckle
-
Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D
Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?
Daniel
-
Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D
Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?
Daniel
:lol: :lol: :lol:
an hundred and forty years... even four generations. :wink:
Chrissie 8-[
-
Anyone notice that the court 'outside of the temple' was NOT measured??
Chrissie
-
Amen Knuckle as a freind of mine has shown me a cute little thing with those "Mansions" much like "Mount SION" which are spirits of just MEN made perfect. They are MAN "SIONS"... His MANSIONS :D
Hey anyone check out how long Job lived including the generations?
Daniel
:lol: :lol: :lol:
an hundred and forty years... even four generations. :wink:
Chrissie 8-[
Your sharp :lol: The "measure of a man" unto the "perfect man". These things are amazing!
Ever wonder about the "third and fourth generation"? Why it might be separate in the equation? :lol:
Daniel
-
Talking about these?
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Num 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,[/list:u]
Chrissie
-
in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
2Ki 10:30 And the LORD said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.
2Ki 15:12 This was the word of the LORD which he spake unto Jehu, saying, Thy sons shall sit on the throne of Israel unto the fourth generation. And so it came to pass.[/list:u]
Chrissie
-
Yeah Chrissie :lol: Why do you think he visited for "that" TO the fourth generation? Why not fifth and sixth see? Those type questions irk me.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
I think I hyjacked this thread going in this direction :oops: I like Joshes direction. My appologies to Josh. Sorry bro.
Daniel
-
hi all---------
Chrissie wrote-----Anyone notice that the court 'outside of the temple' was NOT measured??
the court was given to the gentiles and thier fullness is not yet come in
much love-----knuckle
-
Hi all-------
can any one tell me what occupies the area that was the courtyard of the temple today?
-
good Stuff!! Keep it coming.
-
Hi all-------
can any one tell me what occupies the area that was the courtyard of the temple today?
(http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/signs006.gif) No idea!!
Chrissie
-
Chrissie-----------
Islams dome of the rock sits there.A monument to thier prophet mohammed.they built thier foundation on the wrong rock physically as well as spiritually.there is a plaque as one walks through the door above the jagged rock which reads "God forbid he had a son"
300 feet to the north(Heaven is always noted to be north of any earthly location) stands the dome of tablets which contains the history of the patriarchs(the muslems claim all the ot prophets) and this dome sits on a large flat rock that once was the floor of the holy of holies and was once a threshing floor.the muslims have tried to fill in the holes that once held the temple poles but because concrete doesn't look like bed rock these evenly spaced marks(based on the sacred cubit) are still quite visable
Amazing how God keeps His folks seperated from the "world"
-
Chrissie-----------
Islams dome of the rock sits there.A monument to thier prophet mohammed.they built thier foundation on the wrong rock physically as well as spiritually.there is a plaque as one walks through the door above the jagged rock which reads "God forbid he had a son"
300 feet to the north(Heaven is always noted to be north of any earthly location) stands the dome of tablets which contains the history of the patriarchs(the muslems claim all the ot prophets) and this dome sits on a large flat rock that once was the floor of the holy of holies and was once a threshing floor.the muslims have tried to fill in the holes that once held the temple poles but because concrete doesn't look like bed rock these evenly spaced marks(based on the sacred cubit) are still quite visable
Amazing how God keeps His folks seperated from the "world"
-
Amazing thread, definatly great stuff here, ONCE AGAIN :)
So let me get this straight, the measuring of the temple, also is the MEASURING OF OUR FAITH? Gods elect and there faith?
Im still a tad confused i think thats it, but could use some re-assurance perhaps even in lamence terms ;)
God bless,
Alex.
-
the way i heard it explained once Alex is that the outer court is not measured because it symbolically represents our flesh our outward man.
as in
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
f
-
Amazing thread, definatly great stuff here, ONCE AGAIN :)
So let me get this straight, the measuring of the temple, also is the MEASURING OF OUR FAITH? Gods elect and there faith?
Im still a tad confused i think thats it, but could use some re-assurance perhaps even in lamence terms ;)
God bless,
Alex.
In short I see "the wall" and "measure of a man", that is, of an angel being Christ spiritually signified Romans 12:3... God hath dealt to every man "the measure" of faith. Ephes 4:15 We are to GROW UP "into Him". Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Paul speaks of them who are perfect, on Mount Sion (Signified) which is not a mount that can be touched there are the spirits of just men made perfect.
We add to our faith 2Peter1:5
Him and Him in us, THE Son of God (Jesus Christ) and the Sons of God, those who are led by the Spirit following Him.
Concerning the things written I see them as Spiritual truths as they relate to Christ not after the flesh but the Spirit. I see them all pertaing to the revelation of Him. They are just hidden in the imagery.
I like what Jesus said and even the measure concerning them.
Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Thats enough to bend your ear isnt it?
Daniel
-
Daniel.
Bless your heart. Those are some powerful insights. Just got to read it again and again.
-
Hi all---------
ertsky wrote--------the way i heard it explained once Alex is that the outer court is not measured because it symbolically represents our flesh our outward man.
:) once we have Christ we are circumcised of the heart and are no longer in the "court of the gentiles" we then become the temple of God
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
much love-----knuckle
-
Chrissie-----------
Islams dome of the rock sits there.A monument to thier prophet mohammed.they built thier foundation on the wrong rock physically as well as spiritually.there is a plaque as one walks through the door above the jagged rock which reads "God forbid he had a son"
300 feet to the north(Heaven is always noted to be north of any earthly location) stands the dome of tablets which contains the history of the patriarchs(the muslems claim all the ot prophets) and this dome sits on a large flat rock that once was the floor of the holy of holies and was once a threshing floor.the muslims have tried to fill in the holes that once held the temple poles but because concrete doesn't look like bed rock these evenly spaced marks(based on the sacred cubit) are still quite visable
Amazing how God keeps His folks seperated from the "world"
ok, now I feel S-T-U-P-I-D cuz I 'knew' that. :oops: (at least that the dome was on the site of the temple). I guess I thought that you might be refering to something else. :roll:
Chrissie
-
the way i heard it explained once Alex is that the outer court is not measured because it symbolically represents our flesh our outward man.
as in
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
f
Hi Frank,
I was getting more at the fact that we are His temple (His body). And that judgment (measurement) must begin at the house of God.
1Co 5:9-13 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
1Pe 4:15-19 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. [as those who are 'without'; those who have their PART in the lake of fire.] Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God [know ye not that YE are the TEMPLE of God and that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?]: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? [Those who are 'without'] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
But, yes, same as flesh vs spirit. Those walking after the flesh vs those walking after the spirit... inner man vs outter man. All boils down to the same thing.... what will perish and what will be saved/perfected.
Blessings,
Chrissie
-
JesusOnly writes
Bless your heart. Those are some powerful insights. Just got to read it again and again.
Bless you too, God is good amen? I thank him for any received because I surely wouldn't have seen it. Its not kidding when it speaks of these things being a "revelation of Him" :D
Chrissie writes
ok, now I feel S-T-U-P-I-D cuz I 'knew' that. (at least that the dome was on the site of the temple). I guess I thought that you might be refering to something else.
I didn't know either don't feel stupid A-L-O-N-E :lol: Shoot theres more that I do not know NOW then way back when I thought I knew :lol: And its hard to know (concerning a question) anothers point of reference, I hear you.
Daniel
-
Wow... I just had time to check back and see if anyone had replied to my question. I was suprised to see so many had imput! I have only been here in this forum for a short period of time, but I just want to thank all of you for being so kind and open, not just to me... but to everyone that posts here... there is a very nurturing atmosphere here that allows us all (hopefully) to be able to feel comfortable asking just about anything!
Philippians 2:1-8 (MSG)
If you've gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care— then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don't push your way to the front; don't sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don't be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand. Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all.
I hope this particuliar translation does not rob at all from the truth presented in this scripture...
Thanks.
Josh
-
Wow... I just had time to check back and see if anyone had replied to my question. I was suprised to see so many had imput! I have only been here in this forum for a short period of time, but I just want to thank all of you for being so kind and open, not just to me... but to everyone that posts here... there is a very nurturing atmosphere here that allows us all (hopefully) to be able to feel comfortable asking just about anything!
Philippians 2:1-8 (MSG)
If you've gotten anything at all out of following Christ, if his love has made any difference in your life, if being in a community of the Spirit means anything to you, if you have a heart, if you care— then do me a favor: Agree with each other, love each other, be deep-spirited friends. Don't push your way to the front; don't sweet-talk your way to the top. Put yourself aside, and help others get ahead. Don't be obsessed with getting your own advantage. Forget yourselves long enough to lend a helping hand. Think of yourselves the way Christ Jesus thought of himself. He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what. Not at all.
I hope this particuliar translation does not rob at all from the truth presented in this scripture...
Thanks.
Josh
Very nice!
Made me think of this:
Luk 14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden,
when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,
Luk 14:8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
Luk 14:9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
Luk 14:10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
Luk 14:11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.[/list:u]
I never before noticed the way this continued though....
Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him,
When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Luk 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.[/list:u]
WOW!!! :shock:
Chrissie
-
That was GREAT Josh!! Riight into the HEART of it all !! I never heard it through any translation as beautifully put as the one just posted. I loved it and Amen bro! THAT was right on :D
I got to get me a copy of that :lol: Is there one online to dig through?
Daniel
-
Chrissie THAT was Great too! Him coming in unto them was marking those who took to the highest seat. Oh man is that not true sis?
Wonderful verses I have been so blessed through you guys, praise God he is good! Truly He is!
You guys are the best! The Lord continue to bless you.
Daniel
-
Daniel, check out Biblegateway.com it has several translations available.... including The Message (MSG) which i quoted from.
-
Daniel, check out Biblegateway.com it has several translations available.... including The Message (MSG) which i quoted from.
Thank you Josh, I will do just that, that was great! Thank you
Daniel
-
Hey Josh, I just realized concerning the "measuring of a man", that of an angel. Its in YOUR post but I did not reccognize it as fast being the version it was. The "Equality with God" part.
Jesus was made a "little lower" than the angels through sufferng death
Luke 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are EQUAL unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
It is because of "suffering of death" is where Christ was made a "little lower" (according to the measure)
Yet
Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL with God
So in the "measuring" God "equals" things to "other things". Thats why you can see the Lord as a Wall of fire and measure it and come to that of a man, that is an angel.
I just caught that in your post, where was my head? (yep I was rereading it because I loved the way it seemed to say it all) :lol:
Daniel