bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: newgene87 on May 14, 2012, 01:28:03 AM
-
This Thought is a little complex to me. See, I live in nc and you all may be aware of the "Ammendment One" thing and gay marriage and whatever and being discussions with people; I really wanted to get some viewpoints from the truth (since this is bout the only group of people I know who seek Real Truth). People defend the idea of "gay-marriage" against other peoples acts like stealing, cussing, wrath, fighting, not worshipping God: and they're ALL the same. Okay, with that thought, James 2 comes to mind --- James 2:10-11
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. Okay, i believe thats on the matter of judging, but isn't a man lying with a man 'STRONGER' (in a sense) than, than the other sins, meaning the 10 commandments? I ask that because of Leviticus 20:13 says
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." I see the same connection with "lying with animal". God labels those as "Abominations" and not just "Sins" or transgressions of the law: so wouldnt that be a "higher" sin?? Now, ima make it known, I am not condemning anyone. I'm really not, but I'm seeking the truth behind the matter of people leaning on that all sin is sin, but isn't "certain" sins on another level than other sins, i.e gay-marriage? And might I add, I neither voted for nor against this amendment. Just seeking truth. Thanks :)
-
Hi newgene87
This is a complex matter. Of course not all sin is the same, there is many different degrees and levels of mistakes and God is also going to judge the world in according to their works. The church is the one who teached us that all sin small and great deserve hell if we don't believe what they parrot. That is just wrong.
Anyway, if you really care about these issue. It's very detailed on the transcript called ''Guilty of all'' by L.Ray Smith:http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html) There you will see some very good points and one complete answer to your questions. Actually that 'speech' is one of my most favorites.
-
greetings newgene87
i agree with Moises that not all sin is the same, many different degrees and levels of mistakes...
there are sins that are easily forgiven by our Lord when He was still on earth. We read in the Scriptures saying He "your sins are forgiven" Mat. 9:2, Mar. 2:5, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:48).
but there are also sins that is not forgiven either in this age or in the age to come.
"But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sins. Mar. 3:29 (see also Mat. 12:32, Luke 12:10)
-
Actually- Jesus said whatever is without sin can throw the first stone. No one did because in truth, We all are guilty of sin. Sin is sin. These people who threw the stones at the gay people while being guilty by other sins that they have done- it's a form of hypocrisy.
They are no way better than these gay people really. They just like to think that they are. They should not persecute these people nor should we. We are in the same hell but different devils. It is like we're persecuting someone with their devils while not focusing on the devils that is persecuting us. we go no where. We need to learn how to love in spite of it. Repossess the mind of children. Love saw right through the sins and loved the persons anyway. It is love that people need to learn. Love is not limited to good or evil, It loves you for you, even gay people included.
my two cents
-
Actually God does hate sin and sinners. Those pesky scriptures. It seems the Great God doesn't agree with our 21st Century opinions about love, love, love everybody regardless of what they say or do.
Also, I bet that Jesus didn't have pretty feminine long hair with goo-goo eyes of love. When He kicked a little rear end and threw the money changers out of the Temple---I bet He had a little fire in His eyes---a hard man to stop.
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
-
"Guilty of all" doesn't mean "guilty of each". I completely agree with Moises (and his recommendation of the transcript/bible study).
I'd only add that if anybody thinks they would never commit any particular sin regardless of the circumstances, then he or she is guilty of a worse sin (to my mind)--the sin of lawlessness itself, disbelief in the Sovereignty of God. We all not only could, but WOULD commit any sin, given the right circumstances. There is nothing in any of us lumps of clay that would stop that, only the Hands of the Potter. Fear Him.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
...each in his own turn.
-
JFK
If God hates sinners, then technically He hates the whole world since all have sinned.
-
This is a interesting topic I must say.It seems as from the Obama quotes..that some play the 'WE should live by the golden rule card."Love your neighbor as yourself.And then some play" God hate sin and sinners card" which is also true.How come we cant marry them both up together?How about lets love the person even though they may be gay and be assurd to show them were their lifestyle is sin against God.And then low and behold remember "Why do you look at the speack in your brother eye when you have a plank in yours. And let me just add.. Why does it seem that so many people on here want to be like Ray?In the way they address people that is ?First let it be made clear...I love Ray Smith !God has used him so awesomely to teach his elect.But I would not want to be Ray Smith or anyone else for that matter. I only want to be like Jesus!Did Jesus kick some butt out of the temple?Yes!Did he do it because he hated those people?you answer that question yourself.But I truly feel it was a act of Righteous Anger...you know "Be angry but sin not kind."If I am angry at sin in someones life. I want it to be because I truly do love and care about their walk with the Creator.Not because I think I am better or I could not be there accept for the grace of God!If we choose to pick a side or play a certain card in these life sitiuations, rather than marry them together in the fullness that is Christ.We will be 1.A clanging symbol without love. OR 2.Having a form of Godliness but denying the power."So as with anything..be like a cow eat the hay and leave the stuble.thetruth
-
I'd only add that if anybody thinks they would never commit any particular sin regardless of the circumstances, then he or she is guilty of a worse sin (to my mind)--the sin of lawlessness itself, disbelief in the Sovereignty of God. We all not only could, but WOULD commit any sin, given the right circumstances.
Thanks Dave for pointing this out! It really is a timely statement, now as always. I'm beginning to think that among the most difficult things we all must overcome is to get rid of the idea that we are better somehow, and more capable than others. We all had and have to a certain amount this attitude, and God willing it is burned out of us as we fail and SEE our faults and shortcomings. This attitude really lies at the heart of the human ego. Perhaps a bit less with women, so women are usually better than men in this regard. :)
I remember when I learned that there is nothing I can do to save anyone or anything for that matter, and that there is nothing I can do to save or improve myself. Of course this doesn't mean that I get into a passive status quo, it just means that it is God who improves us, not ourselves. In the moment I realized the truth of it, I felt all worried and hurt inside. I guess it was my pride which got a huge blow. But then, when I started thinking about this and accepting it, I began to feel very peaceful and at ease. There is nothing I can do, God will do it!
We are not any better, we are all guilty of all.
God bless you all,
Eirik
-
The gay marriage issue is nothing more than a political red herring.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Next....................
-
JFK
If God hates sinners, then technically He hates the whole world since all have sinned.
You should study this article from Ray, which I attached to my first post. It answers your inquiry.
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm
-
Very timely topic as I have been listening to some audios of the same things over the last few days.
As Moises and Dave pointed out the link of the transcript from Ray's talk of 'Guilty of All' helps clears up most of these answers.
Audio: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05%20Guilty_of_ALL.mp3
Transcript: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html
James 2:7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
v. 8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
v. 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
v. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (or it can read, liable to the punishment, the penalty).
IF YOU BREAK ONE, YOU'RE GUILTY OF ALL!
Now let’s just think about this a little bit. We always thought about this verse on a level about here. You know you break one, you’re guilty of them all. We thought like, 'well I guess if you committed adultery and God said you shouldn’t, so I guess you dishonor God and so you break the first commandment or something like that.'
But does this verse mean what it says, if you break one, you’re guilty of all? Are you ahead of me yet? Do you know where I’m going with this? Some are figuring it out.
If you break one point of God’s royal Law, you are guilty of all!
So don’t take credit for the fact that you didn’t molest children and kill them. You weren’t lead down that evil alley. You weren’t born into the family that would cause you to go down that alley. You weren’t always frustrated to the point where you were just hell bent on just doing some evil foul thing like that. God prevented it.
God makes vessels of honor and dishonor. He makes vessels of dishonor and then has mercy on the other vessels. Some He hardens and some He has mercy on. He has had mercy on everybody in this room. If you have never killed anybody or molested children or done any of these horrendous things. He has great mercy on your life. Now we need to be thankful for that and not assume we don’t have very much to repent of. We have to repent of what? "O man," that’s what we have to repent of.
In regards to God hating sinners there is some extra clarification in the audio below:
Audio: http://bible-truths.com/audio/love.mp3
Transcript: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html
Now you say, 'God loves everybody the same.'
Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
Now, there the Greek can mean to love less by comparison. But it’s a quotation from Malachi 1:2, and in the Hebrew it means hated... get it?
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
v. 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
v. 18 A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
v. 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
“These six things does the Lord hate,” and then it list a proud look and a lying tongue and so on. But then He says, “a false witness” and that’s a person. A false witness is a person that speaks lies and he that sows discord among the brethren. Those are people that do that. But He doesn’t hate, like we hate, because He doesn’t have a carnal mind and we do. When we hate, we hate with our carnal mind. God has no carnal mind, so you can’t draw the same analogy.
I am still asking God to help me understand this all because I have trouble wrapping my brain around it but in time this will all become clear.
Hope this helps,
Jase
-
JFK
If God hates sinners, then technically He hates the whole world since all have sinned.
At one time or another, sure, but He doesn't stop there. His hate towards sinners isn't for the sole purpose of hating, and it's only for a little while--relatively speaking. He destroys us all in the end, sure, but He refashions us, too.
Phil 4:8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
So lah-dee-dahhh. ;)
-
Thank you all for the input. Makes more sense now. I mean obviously, I don't want this to cross over to "judging" anyone; but Jesus does say, "First cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote of your brothers eye"; I mean, doesn't that apply "Righteous Judgment". I mean, when does being aware that something is wrong and admonishing them crossover to "casting stones"?? Seems as tho somebody knowing that they're wrong feels like a stone being thrown at them, yet we are to stand for the truth. I mean I love everyone, I sincerely do. But even Jesus would treat anyone as; "Neither do I condemn you, go, AND SIN NO MORE" (John 8:11). It seems as tho, even those who walk by the spirit of God, and love of God has to "go along with the flow" cause we don't wanna feel like we're casting stones; but even Jesus would tell all "go and SIN NO MORE". I just don't want to feel condemned in myself that I'm "supporting" and "approving" anyone's choices, lifestyles, decisions just cause i can't judge them -- and that makes me feel like a fool when I stand for righteousness but Im accussed of "judging"? So what's the point of standing for righteousness when youre condemned for standing for it cause that'll be judging in itself? Well, thank you all for answer my questions. Thank you ;). I did learn I'm guilty of the whole law just as anyone. I'll just continue to deny myself and follow Christ
-
Jesse.
So good you brought and paste those quotes from those transcripts. I was going to do it, but you save me the time. Also the 'different types of love' transcript is one of my favorites. I takes reading them many times to start to understand them, at least to me. And I still need to keep reading them once in a while. Because I believe they are so complex and deep. Not as easy as other themes.
newgene87.
I know what you mean. I don't know what is your present situation in life and what are the reasons that make you ''go along with the flow''. Eventually you have to ''come out of Her'' (of her control, of being sponsored in any way by her), also you must be not unequally yoked, and you must leave it all behind to follow Christ. All these of course is mostly a spiritual thing, and the consequences can become physical. Sometimes you will feel like a ''secret agent'' and might will have to ''let your self go along with the flow'' temporally until you make your way out (out of that system). Sometimes it's a gradual process that takes much time and much effort, then as time goes by and you have developed more character, you will gain more freedom, you will not get your nose in places/talks where you have to let your self go with the flow, and you will be able to practice your believes more openly. But it all starts in the mind.
The judge not part can get tricky. In the past I have gone Far, so to judge not, and I still struggle. We tent to judge automatically, so it takes time and effort to get the new habit and stop judging so easy. Every time I judge, that is because because I am not remembering that I have all the capacity to do the very same thing if I was on the other shoes, also I must examine my self, and search if I am not doing the very same thing that I judge in some other area of my life. I find my self guilty many times, of judging the very same things that I do.
I think that the less you judge, the more freedom you have. Your life will gradually change for good.
You can stand for God's righteousness and see at things for what they really are and know how they work; with out judging. - At the end this is God's world, everything is part of his plan and our little limited minds should not get sucked on trying to fix small details from people that is used to do what is wrong continually.
-
Hi newgene,
It seems as tho, even those who walk by the spirit of God, and love of God has to "go along with the flow" cause we don't wanna feel like we're casting stones;
We had a resent thread on 'conscience' and it seems to me that this is a similar discussion. I have come to believe certain things as a matter of my own conscience/morals/code of living and so I believe that homosexuality and gay-marriage is going against conscience/morals or principles of righteousness. Therefore I believe it is wrong to live/practice a homosexual lifestyle in or outside of marriage, I also believe that following a lifestyle/practicing of fornication, adultery or prostitution is wrong and as well as living by manmade doctrines that the church teaches (this can cover many categories) is wrong.
Now in believing these things are wrong do I approach people that are doing these things and tell them that I feel they are wrong for doing them? No. I will say that in going about my life, IF I come into a situation where I am present at a discussion about one of these subjects I will say what my feelings are on this. It really depends on the conversation how much I would comment, but I would not shirk from speaking out against something that I feel is morally wrong. But neither would I condemn an individual per se, if they are by what I believe, so be it. A lot of times to remain silent might be viewed as you are in agreement with the general consensus, so yes I would say how I feel. But of course there is not a standard way to handle this as it would always depend on the situation.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Ray:
"So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?
If Paul wanted to tell us that God loves sinners while they are yet sinning, he would have simply said so, such as this: "God loved us while we were yet sinners." Or even more directly like this: "God LOVES SINNERS." But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time. Paul makes this simple to understand 16 verses previously where he states, "...God calls those things which be NOT as though they WERE" (Rom. 4:17). And since we are told at dozens of places in Scripture that God is the Saviour of all men, His love and sacrifice on the cross covers all sins, for all people, for all time.
"And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world" (I John 2:2)
and
"God our Saviour, Who will have all men [all sinners] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4)
7. "For God hath concluded them all [both the Jews & Gentiles -- that's all humanity] in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom. 11:32)
Notice that God will need to "have mercy upon all" because "all have sinned." God made the human race, and He made them spiritually weak, and as such are not able to obey the spiritual laws of God. Eve failed her first test. God told them what they could and could not eat. Eve immediately gave in to her "lust of flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life" when Satan presented her the opportunity. This weak spiritual mind and heart of Eve did not develop over a life-time of sinning, but was with her from her beginning. It therefore, behooves God to take away man's stony heart and convert his carnal mind after they have served God's purpose in the spiritual development of man.....
God made all humans sinners. He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin (both of which He has made). Ray states that man's will is caused, and we know there is no uncaused 'free' will. So the logical conslusion is
God created all men, who are sinners.
He hates the sin and the sinner, and therefore 'commended' that love ahead of time,
since He hates sinners or sin.
-
"It seems the Great God doesn't agree with our 21st Century opinions about love, love, love everybody regardless of what they say or do."
JFK
I don't think I fully understand what you are stating here. Who are you referring to in the "our" (above). Are you referring to us forum members, humanity in general, christians...?
And what specific 21st century opinions?
Also, I am not sure what "the Great God doesn't agree..." means. Are you saying that the "our" referred to in your statement has disregarded what God says? Or is it that God has 'blinded their eyes' so as not to let them (us) understand?
Pardon me but I just want to fully understand your point.
Can you explain a little more about.
Thanks. I really appreciate your help.
-
If one really wants to get technical, judging others, having a self-righteous attitude, a hateful heart, etc, are all exceedingly worse than any physical sin one could ever do. Christ illustrated this point in the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14).
Christ commands us to love our enemies. I'd take what Christ says over the words of a man.
Mark 12:29-31
Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’ “The second is this, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
1 Cor 13:4-8
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails...
We're quick to join 1 John 4:8 and 1 Cor 13 when discussing the salvation of all, but then we do exactly what the churches do (contextualize it away) when it comes to the idol of hatred.
In Him,
John
-
It is also extremely easy to judge others based on our sense of morals of whats right or wrong because it is in our carnal nature to do so. That is why we need to really train ourselves to make judgement not a primary goal in our lives.
Our senses oof morals are different than others. What we feel is wrong may not seem wrong to them. We repent by things we are convicted of. Not what we feel others say it is wrong.
Also we don't know their lives, their thoughts" etc. That is where more or few stripes come in play. They do not answer to us but they answer to God. GOD knows their mind and hearts. We a re judged according to what we know is right and wrong. God has mercy on us all because we are all sinners. We are people with faults. God knows that. It is easy to try to judge or help others with our own sense of morals but really we need to focus on our own souls and try to become unconditional love itself before we can even help others. We need to first burn out thr carnal nature in ourselves before we can even help others as sons and daughters of God. We need to become unconditional love itself first before we can even see the whole picture. They will truly see God in you once u burn the carnal nature is burnt out and they will want that ttoo. Right now it is our carnal nature that wants to judge people according to our sense of morals. We need to stop that because every soul is different and unique and not everyone sees it the same way u do. When thy see the sons of God. They will defintrly ask and change because they will. Love draws them. Not ur carnal nature. It is better not to cast the stone than to throw one ESP when ur other faults are there. It should be a goal to burn out the self righteousness. Its going to be hard but with God's help, anything is possible.
Denise
-
"It seems the Great God doesn't agree with our 21st Century opinions about love, love, love everybody regardless of what they say or do."
JFK
I don't think I fully understand what you are stating here. Who are you referring to in the "our" (above). Are you referring to us forum members, humanity in general, christians...?
And what specific 21st century opinions?
Also, I am not sure what "the Great God doesn't agree..." means. Are you saying that the "our" referred to in your statement has disregarded what God says? Or is it that God has 'blinded their eyes' so as not to let them (us) understand?
Pardon me but I just want to fully understand your point.
Can you explain a little more about.
Thanks. I really appreciate your help.
You ask can I explain a little more about my statement? No, I don't want to. It's plain English. You either get it or you don't.
What interested me was Ray's article (which I attached twice before) where he quoted the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner", and Ray stated it was a totally unscriptural statement. I agree. Totally false statement, fit for spiritual babes. Most of the great false church and apparently some here on the Forum believe that statement is true. Which my quirky sense of humor finds funny. ;D
-
Thanks, JFK. You're entirely within your right to refuse to explain yourself. I respect that.
As to the the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" isn't it a matter of context? C'mon now, God made the sinner and gave him the nature that sins. So if you say that God hates the sinner, WITHOUT QUALIFYING IT, then it makes no sense, as you're insinuating that God made his creation with a natural flaw, and then hates his creation for operating according to that natural flaw.
I'd prefer to say that God can not countenance sin and does not condone it. I think Ray is saying that God is not going to love man who sins and just dismisses it as his nature. And he made a provision - "But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time."
It seems to me to be less than being impeccable with words to say that He hates the man who commits the sin, without explaining fully.
It's great to be humorous. I love humor. But as I've been told, one has to have some regard for the differing levels of understanding of those who may read these posts.
I will ignore your comment - (which I attached twice before) since I have read the article over 5 times. I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss Ray's teachings.
-
I know exactly how you feel, Onelove. Maybe this will help, Ray pointed out that God doesn't hate the way we hate. His thoughts are not our thoughts.
I so despise the fact that I was made weak and must be chastised, beat into submission, and ground to powder.
I wish it helped to read this verse....
Isaiah 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
But honestly, that doesn't make me feel one bit better. It's like, Oh, great, so not just anyone was beat for my inquities but this perfect man. But guess what, Gina? You still get to be beat for your transgressions and you still get to be beat for things you didn't do. It's all square circles to me. :-\
I don't know, just saying I know how you feel is all.
-
Here is a thought... how do you separate the sin from the sinner?
Pro 23:7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
So would we say that God loves a person's body, but hates the sinful character/nature that the person has developed. I don't think so. God looks on the spirit/heart of an individual and while we are living as a carnal fleshly beast God abhors the sinnful creatures that we are... but He also knows what He will yet bring us to be. So God sees things not only as they are, but also as they will be.
Rom 4:17 ...even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
Here is a section from the article 'Why Does God Love You?'
http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm ---------------------------
There is no Scripture which states that God hates everyone even though everyone sins:
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23)
However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins. Here are some examples:
"And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nations which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them" (Leviticus 20:23)
"If ye will not hearken unto Me, and will not do all these commandments ...My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:14 & 30)
"For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 18:12
"...all that do unrighteously are an abomination unto the LORD" (Deut. 25:16)
"They provoked Him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations they provoked Him to anger...and when the LORD saw it, and He abhorred them..." (Deut. 32:16 & 19)
"The foolish shall not stand in Thy sight: You hate all workers of iniquity..." (Psalm 5:5)
"...God is angry [Heb: 'enraged, abhorrence, abominable'] with the wicked every day" (Psalm 7:11)
"For the wicked boasts of his heart's desire, and... blesses the covetous, whom the LORD abhors" (Psalm 10:3)
"The Lord tries the righteous: but the wicked and him that loves violence His soul hates" (Psalm 11:5)
"When God heard this He was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" (Psalm 78:59)
"For the froward [adverse, disobedient] is an abomination to the LORD" (Prov. 3:32)
"These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination to Him... A false witness that speaks lies, and he that sows discord among the brethren" (Prov. 6:16 & 19)
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, God's curse be upon him" (I Cor. 16:22, Moffatt Translation)
"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that friendship of the world is enmity [hatred] with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is an enemy of God" (James 4:4)
So what is there about man that God loves? He hates man's sin and He hates the man who commits the sin. And that IS the way all human beings are. So what is left for God to love?
There is one Scripture that some might think contradicts the many Scriptures above stating that God hates sinners, and that verse is found in Rom. 5:8.
"But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Doesn't this verse prove that God does love us, even while we are continuing to sin? No, it doesn't. It may sound that way, but let's take a closer look.
CHRIST DIED FOR SINNERS AND FOR THEIR SINS
Christ died for sinners:
"God commends His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US" (Rom. 5:8)?
Christ died for our sins:
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR SINS according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15:3)
If Jesus "died for SINNERS," doesn't that prove that He loves sinners? No. He also "died for our SINS." If dying for sinners proves God's love for sinners, then likewise, dying for our sins would prove God's love for our sins, but God hates our sins. Most of us are familiar with this Scripture:
"But your iniquities [Heb: perversity, evil, sin] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear" (Isaiah 59:2)
There is a solution to why Christ died for US SINNERS, and OUR SINS -- two things which God hates.
Notice carefully, that Rom. 5:8 does not say that God loves sinners, or loves us while we are yet sinners. It says that God "commends His love toward us... while yet sinners."
"Commend" means to "introduce or exhibit." Yes, God "introduces" His love toward sinners while they are yet sinners, but He does not actually love them while they are sinning. God cannot both hate sinners (which many Scriptures attest to including those quoted above), and love sinners at the same time. God's Word does not contradict. God's love for humanity before the cross resided in the fact that all will be brought to repentance due to His workmanship, and God sees things not only as they are, but as they WILL BE. It was what God saw that man would BE, in the future after repentance, that He loved.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.
But didn't God hate Esau before he was ever born? Before he had done anything good or evil?
-
p.s. I don't mean to be disrespectful to Ray or to God or anyone else. I'm just saying what I feel, right or wrong. It's how I feel. I do believe there's a really good explanation for the things God does and I know better than to put Him on trial.
-
Thanks, JFK. You're entirely within your right to refuse to explain yourself. I respect that.
As to the the statement "God hates the sin, but loves the sinner" isn't it a matter of context? C'mon now, God made the sinner and gave him the nature that sins. So if you say that God hates the sinner, WITHOUT QUALIFYING IT, then it makes no sense, as you're insinuating that God made his creation with a natural flaw, and then hates his creation for operating according to that natural flaw.
I'd prefer to say that God can not countenance sin and does not condone it. I think Ray is saying that God is not going to love man who sins and just dismisses it as his nature. And he made a provision - "But God only "commended" or "introduced" or "exhibited" that love ahead of time."
It seems to me to be less than being impeccable with words to say that He hates the man who commits the sin, without explaining fully.
It's great to be humorous. I love humor. But as I've been told, one has to have some regard for the differing levels of understanding of those who may read these posts.
I will ignore your comment - (which I attached twice before) since I have read the article over 5 times. I thought the purpose of this forum was to discuss Ray's teachings.
Onelovedread,
;D ;D ;D You are killing me. This will be my last comment on this matter.
You do realize the the statement "God hates sin..." and that the statement is unscriptural---that came from Ray in his article? Your disagreement is with Ray. Please email him directly with your concerns. Be sure and tell him that you think it's a matter of "context". You do know what Ray thinks of context, context, context? ;D
The scriptures say that "Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed". I agree with Ray's scriptural analysis in that article. He just didn't give two scriptures but multiple scriptures, and he didn't list all the scriptures on that subject. So, what is there to discuss? Conversation kind of dried up. On this subject, you need to go your way, and I'll go mine. Take care.
John
-
However, when sinning becomes a way of life, and the sins are of a certain magnitude and grossness, God hates the sinner as well as his sins.
But didn't God hate Esau before he was ever born? Before he had done anything good or evil
God did not like who Esau would become, it had nothing to do with what had yet to happen. God already knew everything that would happen in Esau's life.
-
God doesn't hate the way we as humans hate neither does he love the way we love. This discussion will never end because God does not fit in the limited usage we have for words such as 'love' and 'hate'. There's a reason the older languages had many variations of love because all love is not the same love.
If this discussion cannot move forward instead of members repeating themselves over and over again, it might be time for this thread to be locked. Hopefully it won't come to that and our maturity as members will win out. ;)
Marques
-
What were we arguing about again? ???
I forget. :P And I am tired. JFK, you are my brother and I am sorry if "I am killing you." We're cool man. I get your point and I think we're saying the same thing. (As a matter of fact, Kat quoted from the same part of Ray's paper that I did). Marques makes an excellent point about limited usage. No problem, everything is irie.
One love!
-
What were we arguing about again? ???
I forget. :P And I am tired. JFK, you are my brother and I am sorry if "I am killing you." We're cool man. I get your point and I think we're saying the same thing. (As a matter of fact, Kat quoted from the same part of Ray's paper that I did). Marques makes an excellent point about limited usage. No problem, everything is irie.
One love!
No problemo. We cool. 8)
-
Irie
-
God doesn't hate the way we as humans hate neither does he love the way we love. This discussion will never end because God does not fit in the limited usage we have for words such as 'love' and 'hate'. There's a reason the older languages had many variations of love because all love is not the same love.
If this discussion cannot move forward instead of members repeating themselves over and over again, it might be time for this thread to be locked. Hopefully it won't come to that and our maturity as members will win out. ;)
Marques
Hey Marques,
How can we act mature? We're not even born again yet. ;D
You tell me because you and OneLoveDread just have ;)
-
Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater.
Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]
Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.
Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay.
By that standard, God's hate for those He hates is infinitesimally greater. Just sayin.
-
Verse 24 “When there was no depths, I was brought forth.” Now before I get into that, understand that terms that applied to us are applied to God. The Bible talks about men of power… does God have power? [Yes] Is the power that God possesses greater or lesser than the power men possesses? [Greater] Much greater, considerably greater, infinitesimally more greater.
Does God have mercy? [Yes] Does He have more mercy than men? [Yes]
Does God have love? [Yes] Same love that we have, right, same amount? [No] You cannot compare the love that God has with the love that we have. Yes we have love and we kind of know what it means. But it can not be compared with the love that God has.
Therefore whatever words are applied to us, when they are applied to Him it’s infinitesimally more greater and more profound. Agreed? [Yes] Okay.
By that standard, God's hate for those He hates is infinitesimally greater. Just sayin.
If God were that simple to understand, you would have a point. But no one here believes He is, so what do you want us to make of your comments?
-
I know! It stumps me too!
-
But the good news is I'm told -- God eventually saves everyone so He obviously won't hate forever. And with that, I'm out of this particular discussion.