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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Richard D on November 10, 2008, 01:39:57 PM
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I feel so embraced after listening to Rays July 208 bible studies on 23 minutes in hell. I find myself asking one question? How in God’s creation could I have believed in the concept of the greatest Christian hoax known to mankind?
It’s truly humbling to me as I look back towards former beliefs I once believed in have now become so silly to me after learning the truth concerning this Christian hoax’s that God has revealed through Ray.
I feel so blessed by God that he leading me into His truths. To understand something that millions of people don’t understand is indeed a great blessing from God our creator.
Let us never forget the precious pearl we have all found here in a field we have not purchased. ;)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Richard it's like getting a new lease on life, isn't it? Freedom is such a breath of fresh air! My husband makes this dumb remark anytime I say "I want..." He says, "Yeah well there's people in hell wantin' ice water too, but they ain't gettin' it!" Now I just look at him and say, "Oh really?" Ha! I've listened to how Ray says it! ;D
I love your analogy "...precious pearl...found here in a field we haven't purchased." Loved it, I say and how true!
So blessed we are!
Kathy :)
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Richard, I feel all of us at one time or another have spent 23 min in hell, (13 yrs myself, my ex said it was more like 30) That kinda hurt my feelings.
Love in Christ
Longhorn
See, I do have a sensitive side.
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Richard, I had hated Hell for years. But, there were times that I did not think of it. Ray talked about how if anyone really thought about Hell very long they would more or less give up. Not sure his exact terms, but he believes we don't think about it long . He is right there were times I thought of it and times I did not. But, it got to where I thought of it enough to hate it. I hated my life when I sinned and I thought why not just die and go there now. Well, I thought of it too long right before I came in her. Actually, just the word Hell typed on the internet led me to freedom. I was sad and without hope. So, now I am glad I went through the Hell of my mind so that I could be sat free of that sickening thought. I have peace in my life for the first time and not fake peace.
In His Love,
Marlene
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Kathy, Long Horn and Marlene.
I wanted to express my gratitude and delight in knowing the truth concerning the greatest hoax about our creator known unto the human race.
Lets face it, there are millions of people who went to their graves believing and fearing what would happen to them at death and still there are millions more who are living with this fear.
But we here have been greatly blessed with this knowledge and although we know these people who have die with this fear are really dead and are not suffering.
I wonder how many people who are living cry at night for their loved ones believing they are being tortured in a place that does not exist and hating God because of it?
I pray I never take for granted the truths that are taught here and keep growing in knowledge because it’s this very knowledge through Christ that truly sets us free.
But free from what? Free from fear of the unknown because we know, free from hate because we learn through the spirit, love, peace, forgiveness, charity, patience, and every good thing that comes down from heaven unto us His children.
I pray I never forget the precious pearl I found in a field I did not purchase but was given me with love that I might live with the hope of being His elect but knowing without doubt that every person from every nation no matter what language they speak will be saved and brought into the family of our God.
So blessed are we here who have been given His truth and we who have rejected the false doctrine of man and accepted the real truth of God. :)
:) In God’s Love. Richard. :)
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Another thing that we should never lose sight of, the doctrine of eternal hell is far and away the most despicible hate filled vile lie that mankind has ever concieved of, it surpasses all wickedness. It is one of the two orthodox Christian doctrines that none believers object to the most and turn away from Christianity because of it. The other being the one that Ray has recently been teaching on, the foolishness of young earth creation.
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Hi David,
eternal hell is far and away the most despicible hate filled vile lie that mankind has ever concieved of, it surpasses all wickedness.
I agree. What has occurred to me is that our loving Father has created for us in this life a fail-safe to keep humans from suffering too much. And that is of course death, we can only suffer so much and the body dies. He could have designed us to live a certain amount of years, but no this way assures no one suffers beyond a certain degree.
No wonder people fear dying so much, the church has proclaimed to the whole world this most vile doctrine against our loving Father. How could anyone love a God they believe capable of creating a hell?? They accuse Him of something we have proof He does not do here, in the actual fact that people's suffering ends and they die.
I am so very thankful that I do not hold this horrific notion of my Father in my mind. What a tremendous blessing to know the truth and it does set one free to know how truly loving and wonderful our Father really is.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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David.
Your so right about that, it’s like I was saying how many people cry because they believe a family member is being tortured. I used to believe in the hell doctrine and I know first hand how devastating it can be.
My dad was not a bible reading man if you know what I mean and I used to wonder after he had died about what he might be going through but thank God this was nothing more than a lie and what’s worst is that it was more than likely done to create revenue.
But now having the truth I forgive all those who lead me to believe in this Christian hoax’s and more than likely they believed it themselves too.
It’s all apart of God’s purpose but I’m thankful I have been lead to the truth and now know it’s a hoax’s and after the resurrection all of humanity will too.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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When my dad died at 50, I cried almost every day for 5 years sometimes constantly it never left my mind.
I wondered how I was to go on living knowing he was in such horrific torture and pain.
Then one day God relieved my mind I just didn't think of hell anymore.
I wince now over 30 years later, it brings tears to my eyes.
This is the doctrine I grew up with Hell that was basically it.
This still saddens me so much.
A couple years ago someone gave my husband a book "Divine Revelation of Hell By Mary Baxter" he read it and believed every word. Give him a bible it will go unread unopened.
He believed I was going to hell for not believing in this hell and that all would be saved eventually.
Unfortunately he still believes in this hell and it is fair and loving.
What gets to me also, how those that believe in their miserable hell thinks they are the ones that will never go there no matter what they do after all they believe their good news gospel of Hell.
Thanks for this thread Richard, if anyone has the link by Ray 23 minutes in Hell handy would they post it here. Thanks!
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Hi Jackie Lee.
I probably should have put the link on this thread without anyone having to ask. My apologies for not having done so.
Below is the link I was listening to.
You will need to scroll down to the July bible study and you’ll find 23 minutes in hell.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html)
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Hi David,
eternal hell is far and away the most despicible hate filled vile lie that mankind has ever concieved of, it surpasses all wickedness.
I agree. What has occurred to me is that our loving Father has created for us in this life a fail-safe to keep humans from suffering too much. And that is of course death, we can only suffer so much and the body dies. He could have designed us to live a certain amount of years, but no this way assures no one suffers beyond a certain degree.
No wonder people fear dying so much, the church has proclaimed to the whole world this most vile doctrine against our loving Father. How could anyone love a God they believe capable of creating a hell?? They accuse Him of something we have proof He does not do here, in the actual fact that people's suffering ends and they die.
I am so very thankful that I do not hold this horrific notion of my Father in my mind. What a tremendous blessing to know the truth and it does set one free to know how truly loving and wonderful our Father really is.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hey Kat your comment brings Psalm 90:10 to mind:
Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
Antaiwan
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Hello All, I have to share this with you. Friday night I was in reading Ray's papers. He gave a verse that basically says it all. I had been talking with an older neice last night. She knows, I do not go to church anymore. Also, she knows I believe in salvation of all. I also, have a friend who had left my old church because of how the pastor was treating people . She calls me often and one night I shared this with her. She is so interested in doing some studies of Rays papers and Bible Studies with My Mother, Husband and Me.
Any ways this is the verse that really did it for my friend, and mother, and husband. It is one Ray said, "You will never hear them preach on."
John 12 verse 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world , but to save the world.
Well, last night I got to read this to a older neice who went to two years of Liberty University and had to leave because my father who was the only father she ever knew passed and she was not able to handle it. My sister had been raped and this is how her birth came about. So, she lived 11 years with me so that she could get a good job. I had her look that scripture up and she believed it. I told her I could give her many scriptures. Last night I shared that verse with a friend from my old church and she believes it.
To night my younger niece who is 21 called me. Her Dad has been ill for last 7 months. Tonight, he passed away. She called me wanting to talk to me. He is divorced from my sister he had been abusive to my sister, cheated on her and also mistreated my neice. She still loves her Dad and they had made amends. Even, my sister cried at his death. Well, tonight I was able to share with my neice whose father just passed away. She passed out when he died. I believe God had be rereading that paper so that I could share with all of those people.
My neices all want to read his papers and learn all of the verses of salvation for all. I was so blessed to comfort her tonight. Plus, it gave her great hope. I told her just like we love people who hurt us, our Father loves us even more. I know that God planned me to talk to my friend, both of my neices and it has also helped my sister who is paralyzed from a stroke. My older neice is her care giver and also works for a hospital.
You, know a pearl is of great value and we all have found many pearls. Ray has surely been sent of God to teach us such an amazing thing. We are all blessed to have each other and my Love for all of you and your post are beyond words.
Love is contacious.
In His Love,
Marlene
Amazing one verse changed several minds.
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Thats Great :D!! Marlene
I wish just one person from my family could see these truths!!
Antaiwan
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David.
Your so right about that, it’s like I was saying how many people cry because they believe a family member is being tortured. I used to believe in the hell doctrine and I know first hand how devastating it can be.
My dad was not a bible reading man if you know what I mean and I used to wonder after he had died about what he might be going through but thank God this was nothing more than a lie and what’s worst is that it was more than likely done to create revenue.
But now having the truth I forgive all those who lead me to believe in this Christian hoax’s and more than likely they believed it themselves too.
It’s all apart of God’s purpose but I’m thankful I have been lead to the truth and now know it’s a hoax’s and after the resurrection all of humanity will too.
In God’s Love. Richard.
Hi Richard.
I had an experience relating to my youngest brothers death just over two years ago (it would have been his 40th birthday today.) I live a few hundred miles away from the rest of my family, and so my pastor at the time had no idea until I told him about it.
My brother was killed by a drunk driver. I was actually asking my pastor about the issue of forgiveness and how I was having difficulty with it. I told him all about what had happend. The first thing he did was not to help me with forgiveness, not to offer any comfort as Christ commanded in Matthew 5:4, no no, what he did was to ask me in a very urgent manner if my brother was "saved". I knew instantly where he was going, and also knew instantly that my time with that Church was up. My brother was not a Christian, had no interest in religion at all. He was just an ordinary hard working family man. But according to my pastor my kid brother is now burning in hell and will remain there forever.
I'd been familiar with Rays teaching at that time for about 6 months, and so I knew I had this guy on the backfoot if I just stuck with the scriptures. Also something just popped into my mind that I believe God planted in me right there and then, which I call "eternal misery for all". I asked him what hope I had in Christ if my brother was burning in hell forever, at what point do I just forget about him and rejoice that I got saved and he didn't? He couldn't answer me. I asked him what insentive there was for the rest of my none believing family to be saved? I asked him how my mother could ever love God or Jesus Christ if her youngest son has been condemned to hell because he missed his chance by being killed by a criminal? He couldn't give me any answers. I wrote him a formal letter saying I was quitting the Church and I've never seen him sinse. I often wondered if God had yet converted that twisted mans heart and mind, but a few weeks ago I had no need to wonder any more. I close friend of mine had coffee with him, and he apparently asked "How is David? Has he given up fighting against God yet? It saddens me that he's following his poor brother straight to hell now that he's given up on the Church." Clearly God has not seen fit to convert him yet.
The depravity of this doctrine needs to be constantly and vigilantly exposed at every given oportunity that God presents to us.
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Thank you for sharing this.
I also wonder about the reciprocal book titled "90 Minutes in Heaven" by Don Piper. This gentleman came to the church I attended at the time. Although his story was compelling, I had a hard time believing it. I know that Ray teaches that Heaven is not a real physical location nor has any one of us been there. So, should these books be discounted as well?
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Hello Keys2heaven.
The dead are really dead, their not in heaven or hell but simply destroyed or out of existence, one's thoughts perished in the day one dies.
If anyone tells me they been to heaven or hell and have come back I would not put any faith in what they are telling me.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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David.
I apologize for not responding right away to your reply, I was heartbroken as I read your story about your younger brother. Your story is heart felt my brother. It’s very sad and hurtful when people parrot things that aren’t true through a lack of knowledge.
I want you also to know how much joy I felt inwardly when you had mentioned you had been reading Ray’s work about six months prior to this unfortunate loss of your brother, I was so thankful to God you knew the truth about your brothers destiny.
I thought the question you had presented to your minister at the time were very valid question any family member would want to understand the faith of their loves ones and its sad he had no consolation to give you from the scripture.
Your right about getting the truth out there so many people can be spared further despair. I would like to believe this minister was like me and honestly believed in hell rather than knowing the truth but withholding it.
One day all of humanity will know the truth after the resurrection and how foolish will these who teach and preach the hell doctrine feel when they stand face to face with those who they taught such foolishness.
My heart goes out to you my brother.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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, should these books be discounted as well?
Yes ;D
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Folks,
I agree with the posters who have said that this "hell" doctrine is a painful, distressing lie, but I wanted to add that there are some who are modifying it a little out of compassion for their church membership.
A group that I attended for a while is working away from the lie gradually by teaching that we do not suffer in hell forever, but rather are annihilated shortly after resurrection to judgment in the "lake of fire". That is supposed to give the living members peace of mind to know that God isn't torturing their loved ones, but simply putting them out of their misery by applying the second death. Of course it still leaves the impression that God's plan is a failure because there were some who were so evil OR so unappreciative of God's gift that they could not be saved.
They are a loving and basically helpful group and I was treated with great respect while fellowshipping with them. But they seem not to realize that the God they worship is an impotent God who started with a perfect creation that simply got out of hand and there is nothing He (God) can do about it.
I realize that this is a sad state of affairs, but they are confident in their error and I have stopped attending or trying to enlighten them. The difficult part for me was that many are still friends that I see regularly in local stores and coffee shops.
Indiana Bob
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Hello Indianabob.
Have you made mention of these scripture to your friends I’ll put below, you can discuss these over with your friends and see if they will understand what these scriptures are really telling everyone.
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The next time you see one of your friends give them these verses and ask then if they can tell you what they are saying to them and take it from there.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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So this guy makes all of that money because he spent 23 little minutes in hell. Oh, boo hoo, I say. I spent 9 years in hell and I'm still living on a teacher's salary. That's right!! It was hell. This guy says that he woke up screeming (well, maybe in a few of his tetimonies. They all vary.) Sometimes I wake up screeming no!!, don't send me back to that inner-city school. It's hell, there!! But as the NT scripture claims (well it would if the translators had stayed consistent), "Oh hell, where is thy victory"? Hell had no victory over me because I got out of it. Take that Hagee!! Anyway, I should be able to make millions for my 9 years in hell. There were also monsters in my hell ripping me apart (spiritually). And man, was it hot!!? Oh wait, it was just me that was hot.
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Musicman.
You are so right, this guy and his wife concocted this whole story up for the sole sake of revenue and makes more money with their fable hell than all of us combined on this forum than we will make in our lifetime.
And what’s worst is that they will not only live a life of abundance here and now wanting for nothing but after awhile in the lake of fire they will be saved as well, thus not only enjoying this life but the next life to come.
It just doesn’t figure. And to be honest with you musicman, we probable couldn’t make a nickel with the truth. This is truly an evil world.
I wonder if I told people I had a dream that I die and went to the grave and was really dead and told them I discovered I would have to wait for the resurrection to be brought back to life and that eventually everyone would be saved, I wonder how many books I would sell?
Do you think maybe at least 10 people would buy my book………………LOL
In God’s Love.
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You know Richard, that's a good idea. I'm gonna write a book from the perspective of one who actually died.
It all started when I died. The last thing I remember was sleeping on the lower bunk at the YMCA. I glimpsed up and saw Christy Alley (down on her luck, I guess) preparing to climb onto the top bunk. Before I could scream, NO!!!! everything became blank. I had no thoughts and no consciousness. I was dead. I did not follow some light, I didn't go to some rock in the clouds, I didn't see Satan stabbing people with pitch forks in some super fire. I was dead. The ressurection has not happened yet. I remained dead. Angles didn't greet me at the pearly gates. I was dead. I didn't wonder when I would be raised. I was dead. I wasn't anxiouus to get up. I was dead. I wasn't bored. I was dead. And since there hasn't yet been a resurrection, I am still dead. I couldn't have written this book. I'm dead. I couldn't have had all of these thoughts. I'm dead. I'm not concerned whether my wishes to be burned to a crisp at death were honored, because, I'm dead. I don't worry that teenagers will dig up my corpesly remains and scare little girls at Halloween parties. I'm dead. How long have I been dead? Don't know. There is no thought, including concepts of time when one is dead. Well, that's my story of being dead. Wait, it couldn't be. Dead people don't write. They're dead. Wish Christy hadn't slept on that bunk bed.
The End!!
Gimmie money!!!
By the way Richard, just think about how great it will be when all mankind has learned the error of his ways. Kind a like getten through to a stubborn disrespectful child. When they get it, it makes it all worth it.
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Musicman.
Checkout my new thread on the off topic board on ( And God knew my thoughts) I think you’ll find it fascinating and filled with much truth if I might add. ;D
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Hi Richard,
Those that have done evil... yes they will be saved eventually, but I don't think they will fair as well as you think in the lake of fire.
Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God;
He is the living God and the everlasting King.
At His wrath the earth will tremble,
And the nations will not be able to endure His indignation.
Psa 110:5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall execute kings in the day of His wrath.
Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the nations,
He shall fill the places with dead bodies,
He shall execute the heads of many countries.
Psa 21:8 Your hand will find all Your enemies;
Your right hand will find those who hate You.
Psa 21:9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger;
The LORD shall swallow them up in His wrath,
And the fire shall devour them.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations,
And His fury against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to the slaughter.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Rev 16:19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."
It seems that it will be and extremely difficult thing for some, perhaps for those that have been living extravagant life styles, purporting to spread the good news.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Richard for your comments.
I am a little troubled by this comment though,
And what’s worst is that they will not only live a life of abundance here and now wanting for nothing but after awhile in the lake of fire they will be saved as well, thus not only enjoying this life but the next life to come.
It just doesn’t figure.
These people are not in need of nothing, far from it. They think they are rich, in need of nothing and increased with goods when in fact they are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind. They have nothing of value at all while they are teaching this vile nonsense.
Also it would seem there is some resentment in you that these people too will one day be saved. Just remember these people are what we were yesterday, and thank God that He chose to save us now, if indeed He is.
Kat, I don't think many of us understand what Gods wrath actually is or will be. Ray teaches that the elect do not go through Gods wrath, and I believe he is right. However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it? I don't.
We're taught through scripture that we must develop many wonderful Christ like qualities such as love, patience, long suffering, mercy just to name a few. I believe the elect are to develop these qualities for a reason, that extends beyond the physical life on earth.
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Hi David,
However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?
I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves. What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello David.
My thoughts are difficult to convey concerning my understanding in God’s truths and although I am far from knowing it all, I have come to the realization that life is a stage with God as the author and director and we are the actors who play out that which was written before the foundations of the world and even the universe.
Although each and every human being must play out their part or role the conclusion was determined before these things came into existence.
You said that these people who are wretched, poor, miserable, naked and blind and this is true, but they don’t even have a clue they are because they are blind and because they are blind they are also happy in this life with their riches and comfortable life style they have.
I don’t have resentment against such as these or others because God chose this for them as it fits into His purpose. My outlook is not the same today as it was before I read Ray’s work.
If one believes in the hell doctrine, what’s that to me, I used to believe also in the hell doctrine but have been persuaded differently through ray’s teaching. But if I had of read Ray’s papers five years ago, would I have of excepted Ray’s work as truth? I don’t know.
I was just listening to Ray’s audio tapes on can one loose their salvation and the conclusion was yes they can but my thoughts are, was it God’s purpose for them to be saved and then something went wrong and God did not have His purpose fulfilled?
God is responsible for all the evil things as well as the good things that have ever happen although we are accountable for those things which we do.
Our will is subjected to God’s will and we will do what ever His will determines by the counsel of His will and by the counsel of His will has God determined who will be saved who will say yes but fall away and who will not be saved.
We are all at the mercy of God whether saved or unsaved and those who are saved are not saved by or through any merit of their own but by God’s grace has he chosen those who would be saved.
And as horrible as the hell doctrine might be God purpose that doctrine and those who brought about this doctrine are accountable for it but it is God who is responsible for it.
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Hi David,
However, if Gods wrath is something terrible, painful etc, then we will all go though it no matter whether we are the elect or not. If a son or daughter, mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife etc go through a terrible suffering experience, then do you believe that the elect will be unaffected by it?
I do believe that when the Elect are ruling with Christ, they will be one with God and they will view the purging and correcting of the carnality out of all humanity as a necessary thing and will indeed be administering it themselves. What will be done will be painful, but God knows what is necessary to order to bring about salvation.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory' that shows the difference that our tribulation now and those underGod's wrath later.
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ------------
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thank you Kat. I agree with most of your statement, that the elect will be at one with God and will be used to administer Gods purifying of the wicked and stubourn. Rev 14 tells us that. I don't believe that it will be a physically painful expereince, I believe it will be spiritually difficult, spiritually painful and of much spiritual torment to the stubourn in particular.
The elect are already going through such spiritual tribulation, or have gone through it in order to come to a knowledge of the truth. Realising that everything we believed, were taught by people we trusted and loved etc, everything we thought we knew was totally wrong is a very bitter pill to swallow for a time. And in that realisation comes the reality that all of it was of God, that it was God that blinded us for a time. That too is very difficult to come to terms with until we see why He does it.
Some teach that the elect go through this process that I have just described, but those who come up to judgment go through much much worse in the LOF. To me thats just a watered down version of hell.
I still think a complete understanding of what goes on in the LOF is misunderstood by many.
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David.
I also agree with your statement of a watered down version of hell. God is no respecter of persons and what we go through here and now the rest will go through the same thing there and then.
Although I read in another thread that those who are not saved in this life will be raised with a fleshly body and have to live this type of life over a second time. I guess that would be the real agony.
It would be good to have a greater in-depth study on what one goes through in the lake of fire.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Hello, I agree that Spiritual correction is painfull. I know that hurts more then anything has ever hurt me. But, with the correction comes great joy now. I can see what he has done . He has made me what I could never be on my own. Try as I might, I could not do it. I never want to boast of it.
He has his plan and he will do it. Everything is good for the purpose he planned it to be. In the end Christ will be all in all. I do believe the elect goes through it now. The rest of Humanity will go through a process like we did here. I know, that some have suffered worse trials then me. I know some have not. But, our Father knows how to correct us. I speaking for myself , know that seeing who we are inside shocks us and it hurts and at first we may fight it. But, if we are his Elect he will bring us to the finish line. If, that process has to be in the second death. I again think he will give to each as is needed to make them give up self. He will burn them all out. That, is making us into his Image. We will have his Character the Elect and the rest of Humanity. I feel from what I see that he judges and knows what it takes. Some, in the rest of Humanity might need more and some less. Only, he knows how to do it.
In His Love,
Marlene
I love knowing it is all his doing. Because, he showed me over and over in my falls that I cannot obey with out him. We are not Independent of him. It all depends on him. I believe we all see that , who have come out of Babylons hold. He choose to show mercy on some now. The rest in his time.
In His Love,
Marlene
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David.
Although I read in another thread that those who are not saved in this life will be raised with a fleshly body and have to live this type of life over a second time. I guess that would be the real agony.
In God’s Love. Richard.
1 Cor 15:44 It is sewn a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
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Hi David,
Some teach that the elect go through this process that I have just described, but those who come up to judgment go through much much worse in the LOF. To me that's just a watered down version of hell.
I still think a complete understanding of what goes on in the LOF is misunderstood by many.
Yes the lake of fire is hard to really understand how it will be. But there are a few Scripture that I think can help us understand it a bit more. Thinking about John the Baptist and what Christ said about him.
Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Christ said, "among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist," so he will not be in the first resurrection, because it says "he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." What will the lake of fire be like for him?
Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I can't help but think for those that are not rebellious and do not resist God, such as John the Baptist, that they will go through the lake of fire process with relatively little pain and suffering "few stripes." The lake of fire is going to be a process to bring about righteousness.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.
Now it is true that there will be those that will have to be purged of many false doctrines and a multitude of character flaws, before they can began to learn righteousness. I do believe in the lake of fire God will show His harshness "many stripes," with those who deserve it. Likewise He will show mercy "few stripes" to those that deserve it.
Eze 7:27 "The king will mourn,
The prince will be clothed with desolation,
And the hands of the common people will tremble.
I will do to them according to their way,
And according to what they deserve I will judge them;
Then they shall know that I am the LORD!"'
Maybe that the Elect are in such a corrupt world, God is blessing them much because of such unfavorable circumstances.
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Being chosen in this world seems to be especially difficult for believers and God blesses them likewise. This will not be the case in the lake of fire as Christ will be ruling on earth and He will bring the world out of all this corruption and immorality. Just some things to think about.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat.
Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.
What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.
If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.
If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too. :(
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Kat,
I am with Richard on this one I don't understand that either. I thought that verse means even though John the Baptist was the greatest of men you don't have to be great on this world to be great in God's kingdom. ???
Kathy :)
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Hi Kat.
Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.
What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.
If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.
If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too. :(
In God’s Love. Richard.
Grace and truth came by Jesus [John 1:17] which came after the Resurrection [...the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... (John 16:13)]. John was already dead...just like all the other saints of old who DID NOT receive the promise [Heb 11].
Why have you lost all hope for anyone being in the 1st resurrection? Where is your faith? I don't understand Richard...sometimes you show great progress in your posts. Then other times, like this, you come up with these carnal reasonings and false interpretations. Believe the scriptures...stop trying to reason them.
Marques
P.S. I see Kathy posted a comment as well...the verse says: Mat 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
If the least in the first resurrection aka kingdom of heaven is greater than John, then John could not possibly be in the 1st resurrection. Otherwise, he would be the least. Hebrews 11 confirms this as well...who do you think Jesus was comparing John to? The OT saints, that's who and they ALL did not receive the promise. There is a MUCH BETTER chance that one of our insignificant forum members will be in the kingdom of heaven before these well-known figures: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, John, etc. I repeat: MUCH BETTER! That's something to chew on...and that much better includes YOU! Mods, forum members, guests, those who hardly post, etc...YOU! :D
1 Corinthians Chapter 1
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
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Hi Richard,
You have to understand that Jesus Christ was the FIRST fruit. No one that died before His resurrection will be in the first resurrection and that includes John the Baptist. The first resurrection is reserved for the few chosen Elect, prepared to rule with Christ. But these are not the cream of the crop, so to speak, but rather more like the least you would expect it to be in it.
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that He might bring to nought the things that are:
It seems to me that God has chosen out those most unlikely, to prove that He can accomplish bringing any person to righteousness.
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory before God.
Here is an excerpt from the article 'Twelve God-Given Truths To Understand His Word.'
http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm -----------------------------------
What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I’m about to knock your socks off:
"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES… For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country… they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY… And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]… RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided some better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn’t happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).
WOW!
I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.
ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.
ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.
ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.
ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.
ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.
OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."
WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,
WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.
THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!
Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).
Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: ‘apart from’] US should NOT be made perfect [or ‘complete’].
Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except through those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).
Have you not read:
"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US [‘Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come’ I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not ‘them’—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).
Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruits" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16).
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Any that are not of the Elect, none that died before Christ's resurrection were, do not have their name in the book of life (Jesus Christ). If they are not in the first resurrection then there is nothing else, but for them to go into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
But this is not necessarily a horrible fate. This is an excerpt from the article 'God judges the World In A Pond.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html -------------------------------------
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)… in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.
This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor." (My father helped build Safe Harbor Dam in Pennsylvania).
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THE DIVINE LAKE OF FIRE
Perhaps one reason that God describes this place of judgment as a "pond" or "lake" rather than a "harbor" is because a lake is landlocked, thus preventing a return to the perilous winds and waves of the deep sea from which these occupants have figuratively come:
"And the SEA gave up the dead [spiritually dead people] which were in it…"
v
v
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
The lake of fire is a metaphor written in symbols that stand for what is being symbolized, not the symbols themselves. The lake of fire is composed of Jesus Christ the Judge of the world, Christ’s divine spiritual fire and brimstone, and the Sons of God who are the body of Christ who are also FLAMES OF FIRE (Heb. 1:7).
And the whole world will be judged BY US! After death, all the dead will be resurrected, they will all be judged, they will have to pass through the purifying lake of fire, they will have to PASS THROUGH US! WE will be their judge along with our Lord.
"Know ye not that the SAINTS SHALL JUDGE THE WORLD?"
And so, the GREAT SEA OF HUMANITY will be judged in the safety and security of the LAKE OF SAINTS!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Marques and Kat,
Thanks again, i keep reading The LOF series and it keeps giving. Then when i read your posts,
those give even more of the same; wow this is the greatest smorgasbord in the world. I get
to gorge myself day and night for one small fee (Love).
george. ;D
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Hi Kat.
I read that excerpt you have given, God judges the world in a pond and understand why you said John the Baptist will not be in the first resurrection. Kat, what can I say to you, I was wrong in what I said and you were right.
There is so much I don’t know and so much I need to learn and in the end I realize I’ll never know it all on this side of life.
I remembered a scripture I read about the first being last and the last being first, I guess this scripture applies here no doubt.
Kat, you are truly a wonderful sister in the Lord and a blessing not only on this forum but also in my life as well and I thank you for your patients with me.
I want you to know your words are not in vain towards me as I learned something new this day and although this is somewhat of a heavy blow to me I accept the truth in what you say. :)
Anyways Kat, the thing is I apologize to you personally for coming off kind of strong with you in my reply I directed towards you and find I not only learned something this day but also feel like a heel too. :-[
In God’s Love. Your brother in Christ. Richard.
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Hi Richard,
You have nothing to apologize for, I understood you just had not reached this in your understanding yet. There is must we all still have to learn. I have been studying Ray's material a wee bit longer than you and I remembered his teaching on this, so of course I wanted to help a brother and I have already noticed that you take to heart what someone explains to you. God has blessed me with time and the desire to help whereever I can at this forum, I am just too happy to do so.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hello Marques.
Thank you for your last reply to this thread. You know Marques, I still have past Christendom teaching in me, no doubt about that. I had lacked some knowledge when I had responded to what Kat was saying about John the Baptist. ???
I spoke when I should not have but on the other hand I say thank God I did because now I understand that anyone who dies before the resurrection of Christ will not be in the first resurrection. :(
So now my understanding has been increased which is a good thing. Marques, don’t be dismayed with me when you see I may not be progressing in my post, you know, I can only go at God’s speed. :)
Marques. I hope what I said about how I see no one can be saved if John the Baptist won’t be was only because of a lack of information on my part which sister Kat took care of that, I apologize if I have hurt your faith in what I said but now I see the errors of my ways once again. :)
Thank you for your input as I always appreciate it and I think you know that by now. :)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Oh, wow! Kat, this is kind of funny! I hadn't even stopped to think about that! :-[ It is amazing when you look at something in a different light. It's not that I was disagreeing with you I just didn't understand, sorry,
I've read that all before I guess I just wasn't paying attention!
I understand now what you meant! :D
thank you :D Thank you too, Marques :)
Kathy :)
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Hi Kathy,
What joy it is to be in this place, to be sharing and learning along with other believers :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Marques. I hope what I said about how I see no one can be saved if John the Baptist won’t be was only because of a lack of information on my part which sister Kat took care of that, I apologize if I have hurt your faith in what I said but now I see the errors of my ways once again. :)
No apologies necessary Richard...we all tend to look back to our old Babylon ways from time to time but it's good when we all can edify one another and say 'Hey, this way!' :D
Marques
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Marques.
Thanks Marques, I know hurting another’s faith is a serious offence and I don’t want that on my hands. When I had read your response I did have some concerns I might have been guilty of that but its great to hear everything is ok and no harm done.
I’ve learned many things from your threads and your responses as well and just wanted to say you’re a great asset to all your brothers and sisters here on the forum.
Thanks once again Marques and God bless you friend. :)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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richard could you post that web site so that i might be this peggy
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Hello sister Peggy.
Please forgive me, I do not understand what web site you are referring to. Let me know which website you are referring to or what is was about. Thank you. :)
In God’s Love. Richard.
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Hi Kat.
Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.
What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.
If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.
If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too. :(
In God’s Love. Richard.
If the least in the kingdom is greater than John, then he can't be there, otherwise John would be the least in the kingdom. If the last in a running race can run faster than you Richard, then you couldn't have been in that race, otherwise you would have been last.
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Hi Kat.
Kat, I have a lot of respect for you, I really do sister but the notion of John the Baptist being thrown into the lake of fire I cannot comprehend. John the Baptist was kind of a righteous man you know.
What’s John the Baptist crime in life may I ask. He ate locust and wild honey and was a Godly man who lived in the desert and never had strong drink or chase women around but was a good man and a faithful servant of the Lord and besides Jesus was his cousin too you know.
If that’s how Jesus treats kin folk what in God’s creation do you think he will do to us may I ask. I always believed that scripture to mean what it says, the greatest person on earth is less than the least in heaven which is only telling us that the least part in heaven is better than the greatest part of earth.
If John the Baptist is not in the first resurrection then I see no hope for anyone because John was a Godly man and so then if that is what god is going to do to John then I being worst than John will be their too. :(
In God’s Love. Richard.
If the least in the kingdom is greater than John, then he can't be there, otherwise John would be the least in the kingdom. If the last in a running race can run faster than you Richard, then you couldn't have been in that race, otherwise you would have been last.
Hello David.
At the time I made this statement I had not read (God judges the world in a pond) so I made this statement out of ignorance but sister Kat had enlighten me to the truth of the matter.
I understand now that of all men born unto women none are greater than John but the least in heaven is greater than John because John is not going to be in the first resurrection.
I did not perceive that then but do now.
In God’s Love. Richard.
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I can't tell ya'll how lovely it is to see people with differing understandings come together in discussing those things. Maybe it is because I just escaped from the church but I never saw this type of love while I was in there. Respectful and all. You wouldn't be allowed to disagree with an elder and stay a part of the church. They put you out therebut not here. Thanlful Old Jennie
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Jennie.
It’s wonderful to see the love of God shine through on this forum and the love the brothers and sisters have for one another, by this they will know you are my disciples. :)
Thank you Jennie for responding to this thread with a joy of heart that edifies us all. ;)
Your brother and friend in Christ Jesus. Richard. God Bless you Jennie. :)