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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on October 06, 2015, 11:57:28 PM
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Dear Brethren,
I may have forgotten with time such a simple scriptural truth but alas today I found myself in a position to answer just such a question and believe I may have misspoke.
I found where ray speaks about this subject and he argues that we can lose the holy spirit. Here is where I found this:
CAN WE LOSE GOD'S SPIRIT AND EONIAN LIFE?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html --------------------------
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
See you can not really differentiate between those two. Spirit is life, spirit doesn’t die. Flesh dies. If you have life in you, you have God’s Spirit. If you have God’s Spirit in you, you have life. It doesn’t mean that you’re not going to physically die, but at least while you’re living you have some other kind of life in you. If you don’t have that life in you, then you’re no different than an infidel that has no religion, no faith and maybe has not even any morality as to why he should live above any other citizens or criminals or whatever.
You know it is an amazing thing that we have two and a half million people in prisons in America. Out of those two and a half million at least two million of them are Christians. So almost all criminals in prisons are Christians.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life…
Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15.
Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”) in him.
So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you. Do you follow that? It’s in you.
He’s not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he’s talking to the congregation who have the Spirit of God. But he says if you hate your brother the spirit of God will no longer stay with you, it will no longer be in you. If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are no longer His. Then you are going to the judgment. That’s just how simple that is. All through these Scriptures if you read carefully, maybe it doesn’t have it just like this, but this is just a poor translation. But if you read Concordant and Rotherham and all, they will tell you to ‘stay’ - ‘remain.’ It means to remain, but it won’t remain. You see it’s there, but it’s coming out.
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For the context of my situation, I told three people who approached me with this question that we cannot lose the spirit of God. If we lose it, its because we never had it. I continued that the elect of God cannot be lost. God will not lose those that are His.
So... here is my delima. Yes, God cannot lose that are His, we know this. (Ray answers that in an email - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg16747.html#msg16747)
Here are the scriptures:
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Here then is the subtle nuance. Is it truth to say then that the elect of God cannot be lost but simply because this is true doesn't mean that ALONG THE WAY to being justified by God and ultimately saved that an elect may not have some point in the past lost that holy spirit but then God as part of the process gave it back? Or is it that once the holy spirit is lost that God does not give it back to a man until the great white throne? Are there any more scriptures which show this idea that we can lose the holy spirit of God?
I know this might seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but I want to make sure I am speaking truthfully and this one little question that was asked me forced me to look at this in a perspective, with all it nuances, that I had not thought considered more deeply.
Thanks for all the insight.
God bless,
Alex
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From the same article Ray says -
Now I have the subtitle, ‘Is “once saved, always saved” Scripturally true or false?’ Well yes, of course it is true. The only thing is WHEN are you saved, you see?
It seems to answer it for me. The elect may go through many things but the outcome will be the same as God has willed for them.
Rhys
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Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15.
Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is “staying or “REMAINING”) in him.
So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I’m giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God’s abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it’s in you. Do you follow that? It’s in you.
Hi Alex, here is the Scripture you are focus on here, now here is an interesting comment Christ made.
John 15:5 `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from Me ye are not able to do anything;
v. 6 if any one may not remain in Me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned; (Young's)
I have often thought that the parable of the Sower and the seed could be speaking of those who have their eyes opened (receive the Holy Spirit?), but do not endure to the end. So as you wonder can a person loose the Holy Spirit, this does seem like it could apply to some of those in this parable.
Matt 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
v. 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
I can see how this verse 19 is speaking of the church in general.
Mat 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Now look how so many embrace these truths initially, but cannot endure at all... did they receive the Spirit?
Mat 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
Maybe a religious hobbyist? We've had a few people come through here that really embraced "the word" of truth, but didn't last too long, not here anyway.
Mat 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
So I'm wondering if there are those who have the Holy Spirit and their eyes are opened, but obviously were not elected or chosen to endure to the end, it was just a temporary thing. I do not see this as the "first love" thing though, because in Hebrews, it does say specifically that when a person is actually enlightened, "partakers" of the Holy Spirit and then "falls away"... it's for good, in this life anyway.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers (G3353- participant, that is, a sharer; by implication an associate: - fellow, partaker, partner) of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
v. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
v. 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Now a second witness is what Paul said that he was not so arrogant as to suppose he could not fall away.
1Co 9:26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. (NKJV)
Easy to read version
1Co 9:26 So I run like someone who has a goal. I fight like a boxer who is hitting something, not just the air.
v. 27 It is my own body I fight to make it do what I want. I do this so that I won't miss getting the prize myself after telling others about it.
So obviously there are those that do not endure to the end in this life, or there would be no need for the warning about not enduring.
Rev 17:14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Now there are many who assume that they have the Holy Spirit, the whole church, but actually never have... and there are the 'tares' as well, that I don't think ever actually have the Holy Spirit, because they remain with the elect (Matt 13:28-29). So there is a lot to think about, and a person certainly should not be complacent about there situation of understanding truth, that's for sure.
But even for the elect it is a long process with much ups and downs, and I really don't think that the Holy Spirit indwelling is so obvious... Scripture says you will know the Spirit is indwelling, by their fruit.
Matt 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
v. 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
There is also much comfort in Christ's words.
John 10:27 according as I said to you: My sheep My voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow Me,
v. 28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of My hand;
v. 29 My Father, who hath given to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of My Father;
v. 30 I and the Father are one.' (Young's)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Rhys and Kat, thanks a lot. Really appreciate the digging you did on this one Kat and there is definitely a lot think about.
Hebrews definitely seems to imply that once the holy spirit departs, it does not return to a person until the next age. I agree that this falling away of hebrews is not the same as that of leaving our first love, this specifies to those being enlightened and partaking--Even crucifying the Son of God again! I don't think that's the same as leaving our first love though, thats more like the prodigal son walking off and rolling around in his own filth for a while but certainly not crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to open shame.
Thanks again both of you and God bless. If anyone has more to add please feel free.
Kindly,
Alex
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Can we lose out… well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before.
Alex
Hi Alex,
Sounds like what I used to hear in Christendom, one can lose the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin and oh yeah, hell is the place one goes for one of the above two.
Just sounds like a free willed person to me, the kind you find in Christendom.
One is either the elect of God or their not, I don’t believe there is any such thing as the unpardonable sin because all will eventually be saved so therefore all sin will be forgiven.
So those whom were chosen by God to be and elect, not that they had some special quality that cause God to choose them but God chose them before He created them.
All those whom God has not chosen in this age will be in the white throne judgement not because of any special quality they have but because God chose them to.
What ever Gods intentions are concerning His creatures will come to pass and let us all be thankful that its Gods will that all be saved and we know and believe Gods will, will be done in this aged and every other aged that follows.
Why should anyone worry about anything when God is in control of all things?
P.s. All sin will be forgiven, past, present and future, I know this personally because I know personally that its Gods will that all be saved so it stands to reason that its Gods intentions to forgive all so that all can be saved and all will be saved.
Its not a question of will you be saved because its Gods intentions that you will be saved and saved you will be.
The only question is when will you be saved and that is Gods business and not ours.
God bless. :)
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Rick, I think you are missing the point here. Yes salvation is assured for everybody eventually, but the believers of THIS age are in hopes of the "first resurrection." I know this is predetermined by God, of course the sovereign God has chosen those that will be powerful spiritual servants with Christ in His reign on earth... we all are well aware of that. But there is a very big difference which resurrection one is in, glorious eonian life is what all believers in Christ hope for, the first resurrection. So Alex had a legitimate question, can one having their eyes opened and the Spirit indwelling, lose that? Apparently so.
2Peter 3:17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
You seem to be saying 'so what' we'll all still receive salvation eventually. Yes that is true, but we have our eyes opened to the truth, we have tasted of the good things of the kingdom, why would we just sit back and not even care if we missed out on the greatness thing a human being could ever hope to attain? I know it's not up to us, but I do believe the attitude of desiring the kingdom above all else, shows God Spirit is indeed at work in a person.
Matt 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.
We should greatly desire to be one of His sheep... how great would the disappointment be to find yourself among the unjust/goats at resurrection.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."
What I'm saying is that we should care, a lot, and no not worry, but striving and running hard in the race as Paul spoke of... the opposite of just being lackadaisical about it all.
Php 1:27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,
Luke 13:24 "Strive(G75) to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
G75 Strive agōnizomai - to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.
So being here among other believers with the same hopes of the kingdom, we should be encouraging one another to stand firm in the truths we are learning, first and foremost seek the kingdom, the narrow gate, the prize above all prizes. To Paul all of his suffering, and there was a lot, was well worth it to him, he certainly made it through that narrow gate and so can we, God willing.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
Psa 31:19 Oh, how great is Your goodness, Which You have laid up for those who fear You, Which You have prepared for those who trust in You In the presence of the sons of men!
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Rick, and to anyone who may have miss understood my post,
Kat understood what I was searching out so read her post as she said what I did not feel like posting. Hopefuly her replies and my original post will clear up any confusion.
God bless,
Alex
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Great subject Alex and a good answer Kat.
It really got my mind to think. Will you ever now that you don't have it anymore? I just think about myself. I have so many errors and it feels impossible to fix ( even though it is not impossible for God). I will always have the belief, but what if believing is not enough. I have always thought, when you read the bible you have to suffer in this life. Then i think, what do i need to suffer? Yes one of the things is that you believe in something that almost no one on this earth believes, but everyone who believes have a individual suffering. Only Gods knows the outcome.
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Rick, I think you are missing the point here.
Hi Kat,
I don’t believe I misunderstood what Alex was getting at, and I certainly am not saying well God is going to save all so why care.
I believe in the sovereignty of God is what I’m saying Kat, I can wish to be one of the elect all I want but its Gods choice if I am, now, there is nothing about me that would cause God to choose me.
God has predetermined who will be one of the elect according to His purpose. We all start off with the carnal mind, hatred against God, its impossible for anyone to say on any given day of the week, gee I think I will believe in God while under the influence of the carnal mind.
God must somehow convince us to believe in Him, afterwards He must get the truth to us, the real truth not Christendom’s truth and then get us to believe it.
Now of course this is not a difficult thing for God to do, but we should always remember its God who called us and its God who leads us and its God who chooses us, we do not have the ability to make an uncaused choice so God will provide all the circumstances in our life that will cause His to choose each choice that leads to life or the first resurrection.
I cannot change a single hair on my head white or black nor do I know what one hour from now holds in store for me and I certainty cannot save myself from myself, I can’t even trust God to save me unless He lets me trust Him to save me.
There are two things I know and that is deep in my own soul there is something not right about me and two God will save me from myself, that’s all God can save me from which is me, the man of sin.
I trust God that much because He has cause me to trust in Him, to rest in Him and to except what ever His will and purpose is for me, when I think about being an elect of God I say great my next question is what is my motive for wanting to be an elect ?
That is a very important question for me to answer to myself because the carnal mind wants the very best for itself, things such as power, the kind of power Gods elect will have, things like glory, the kind of glory Gods elect will have.
The human heart is deceitful above all things, I have no choice except to trust God for my life, I guess that is what I mean Kat.
I say its where God has me, where God wants me, where I must be not that I always want to be where I’m at but its better than being no place at all without God.
I said it long ago on this forum and I still believe it now, I am the least of you all. :)
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That's good Rick, you have assurance about God's sovereignty... I think we all do here, to me it seems a rather basic fundamental concept for believers. i can see that no free will and all is caused is a harder concept to grasp. I only know you by what you post and so I react just to that, we certainly do not know that much about one another here and it's easy to misinterpret what somebody is trying to say.
It seems strange to me that you would question your motive for being chosen as one of the few... the power and glory the elect will receive to reign with Christ will be guided by the Holy Spirit in full measure, as Christ has, not by the deceitfulness of a carnal heart.
Yes God brings up to where we are at any given time, but we don't remain there, we continue to grow in understanding and progress forward. If we are waiting on God to cause us to progress, it almost seems like an excuse to me, maybe I'm reading you wrong on this, it just an opinion. I think of what Christ said about getting to comfortable resting too much on our laurels, so to speak.
Rev 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
This might not be you at all, but it's worth bringing to the discussion as a reminder to us all. God wants us to be "hot," full of zeal and earnestness about this calling, I believe that is an attitude of being eager to move forward. Anyway I hope this is encouraging, as it is meant to be to one and all.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes, it is important to be hot rather than lukewarm.
However, if we are hot, then we didn't have anything to do with it. It came from God, from above. It all comes from above.
We cannot decide to do good, or work ourselves up. All good works come from God and God alone.
For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph 2:8
Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD Almighty. Zech 4:6
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Hello all
This is a subject i think about daily i don't know why God waited so long to allow me to see spiritual things,it seems i grow so slow, it seems that God moves in my life as slow as winter molasses the temptaions of some sins from the past seems to not bother me as before but still i battle daily with the flesh i'll be 63 in Jan. i thought sin would lighten up as i get older or rather my desire for sin i guess i'm not old enough yet,
The thing is now i hate my sins, i truly do, before i never really thought about it, i would love to be as close to God as some of you i feel something must be wrong with me, if i could change my life i would have done it 40 yrs. ago i couldn't do it then i can't do it now if i could i would but with God's help i know i will make it,the scripture that comes to me while i'm on this journey is He is the potter and i am the clay i know i'm not much to look at now but when i come out of the fire i know i'll be beautiful how could i not be,
I know the things i go through now i hate but it must have needed to be this way i don't question his will i just try to roll with it,i love all of you so much, i wish i felt stronger that i might feel better posting. but i love reading here and reading ya'll's posts it really helps,my mind and heart is on that far away country.
God Bless
Terry
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Hi terry, it is a slow process and we live our life in the world what seems like a really long time. When our eyes are open then we are being made into a new creation, there's a lot that goes into that, but the more you put into it the more you get out of it, until we bring "every thought into captivity" (2 Cor 10:5), so "that we should no longer be slaves of sin" (Rom 6:6). All we can do is keep on doing the best we can.
John, it is a well established fact here that God is sovereign and in control of all things... to keep repeating that can not make it more so. Yes those Scripture you brought are very true, it all comes from the Father through Christ and is working in us by the Holy Spirit.
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
But you know John, that the rest of what is in the Scripture must always be considered as well, like what it says elsewhere in Philippians.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Entering into God's 'rest' does not mean you don't have to do anything. Why would somebody want to keep saying, "we cannot decide to do good, or work ourselves up"? I happen to think that it can be a cop out... the surface of it is true, but there is much more to it, it's like an excuse to fall back on for not doing more. Paul analogy of running a race, is not sitting on the sidelines, running is an expression that implies doing something. What about what Christ said to the servant that hid his gift in a napkin?
Our struggle is daily to overcome the flesh, to enter the narrow gate, of course by the Holy Spirit. This overcoming is not done to us, but in us, it requires our effort, it requires our putting on the whole armor of God.
Eph 6:13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
v. 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes Kat, Ray has discussed Philippians 2 verses 12 and 13.
Ray said the emphasis is not so much on verse 12---"work out you own salvation", but rather on verse 13---"it is God Who works in you both to will and do."
We work with fear and trembling because it is God Who does the works, it all depends on God.
Give all the glory to God. All the works are from Jesus, the Hope of Glory.
I am not saying we do not have to do anything. It is you who are implying that is what I am saying.
All the works, all the effort, come from God. I emphasize God as opposed to the false idea of human good works or effort.
And I will continue to repeat and put the emphasis on God, which is where all the credit goes.
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Terry,
God will work everything out and bless you in the end.
We are all in the same boat. We all sin.
Jesus said there is only one Who is good, that is God.
The rest of us are just toads beneath the plow. But there is great happiness for us because God will save all of us in the end.
Take care friend.
John
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Thank you for that, John; I completely agree with what you said. I know that God will work in you in His own time (as He does in each of us), Terry, and—yes—I know from experience how humbling it can be. But I think that you’re doing very well and making a great contribution to the forum with postings like this one.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy
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Hello all
This is a subject i think about daily i don't know why God waited so long to allow me to see spiritual things,it seems i grow so slow, it seems that God moves in my life as slow as winter molasses the temptaions of some sins from the past seems to not bother me as before but still i battle daily with the flesh i'll be 63 in Jan. i thought sin would lighten up as i get older or rather my desire for sin i guess i'm not old enough yet,
The thing is now i hate my sins, i truly do, before i never really thought about it, i would love to be as close to God as some of you i feel something must be wrong with me, if i could change my life i would have done it 40 yrs. ago i couldn't do it then i can't do it now if i could i would but with God's help i know i will make it,the scripture that comes to me while i'm on this journey is He is the potter and i am the clay i know i'm not much to look at now but when i come out of the fire i know i'll be beautiful how could i not be,
I know the things i go through now i hate but it must have needed to be this way i don't question his will i just try to roll with it,i love all of you so much, i wish i felt stronger that i might feel better posting. but i love reading here and reading ya'll's posts it really helps,my mind and heart is on that far away country.
God Bless
Terry
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Terry,
Just going from what you wrote I can tell that we may have had a similar experience. My problem tends to be that I lose sight of the goal, stray, and then God brings me (almost violently) back to reality. When He shows me my sin, I'm horrified, and it shatters me until He's ready to release me from the pain. That's been going for 50 years, but I didn't understand it until He brought me here.
I'm slow to learn, I fall easily, and suffer for it. Some years I think I'm making progress, others I seem to go backwards, but it's all part of the fiery trials that burn away the carnality in me. You aren't alone. There are 7 billion people who struggle daily and only a handful know why. You're blessed to have your eyes opened. I know you want more, but that hunger is God working in you.
I think it's a slow process because few things in life are valuable without great effort. The pace has value and purpose.
Are we there yet? Even as an adult I find myself asking this question in prayer. Of course the answer is always no, because the time isn't "now".
“The steadfast of mind Thou wilt keep in perfect peace because he trusts in Thee.” Isaiah 26:3
“The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way.” Psalm 37:23
“Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.” (1 Peter 5: 6-7)
Almost every bit of suffering in my life comes from impatience, some of it has impacted in such a way, that it will be a part of me until I'm in hell. I hope Jesus comes back before that, but the consequences are mine.
It's easy to find Scripture that relates to our circumstances, and another thing to heed them, but that is our lot.
I take comfort in knowing that God is in control and NOT me! :)
Peace,
Jeff
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Yes Kat, Ray has discussed Philippians 2 verses 12 and 13.
Ray said the emphasis is not so much on verse 12---"work out you own salvation", but rather on verse 13---"it is God Who works in you both to will and do."
We work with fear and trembling because it is God Who does the works, it all depends on God.
Give all the glory to God. All the works are from Jesus, the Hope of Glory.
I am not saying we do not have to do anything. It is you who are implying that is what I am saying.
All the works, all the effort, come from God. I emphasize God as opposed to the false idea of human good works or effort.
And I will continue to repeat and put the emphasis on God, which is where all the credit goes.
We can never give God to much praise and certainly all glory goes to Him and "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." All I'm saying is that in our discussions here, I think it helps to include our part in the process, as we are involved in all this. We are discussing our lives and hopefully encouraging one another in what we actually are trying to do or whatever. But we can never forget that God is behind the scenes and bringing everything about according to His will.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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It seems strange to me that you would question your motive for being chosen as one of the few... the power and glory the elect will receive to reign with Christ will be guided by the Holy Spirit in full measure, as Christ has, not by the deceitfulness of a carnal heart.
Hi Kat,
It doesn’t seem a strange thing to me to question my motives and here is the reason why, no carnal minded person is coming to God on there own, God must drag them to Himself, I don’t believe it’s a one time act of God dragging us to Himself.
There is a huge difference between Jesus and all believers and that difference is Jesus, even though He was fully man He certainly did not have a carnal mind. The carnal mind is hatred towards God.
But all believes which includes myself have a carnal mind , that is why God must drag us to Himself, this is a constant dragging of us believes by God to Himself, this is why we all struggle with sin and temptation because we are not fully Christ minded.
Now we are commanded by scripture to put on the mind of Christ, if a believer could actually
put on the mind of Christ of their own accord, what believer would not do that. But its God who instills the mind of Christ in the believer.
I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.
I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.
The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.
If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?
I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.
When one no longer sins or cannot be tempted to sin they then have the mind of Christ in fullness.
We are carnal minded people having a spiritual experience for we are still in the physical, the resurrection has not happen yet.
God does it all in us and through us, it is Christ that does the work in us so that no man can boast. If someone says they are doing this or doing that in the Lord chances are its not Christ that is doing this or doing that but because they say their doing it then they can boast but God says no one can boast. We are not in control of anything in life one way or the other, what a humbling thing that is to discover.
Are we the potter or are we the clay ? The clay can do nothing the potter does everything and the clay will have the form the potter gives it and who is the clay that should answer back why.
god bless. :)
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I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.
I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.
The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.
If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?
I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.
Rick, I really do get it that God is in control of all things and yes as long as we are in this flesh we are subject to error. Sometimes I wonder if we might overthink some of these things and just get stuck. But to desire to be among the chosen few is always a good thing whatever the motive, even if you are not chosen it would still benefit you to seek Christ. Anyway here is a couple of Scripture that show how they dealt with people that were outside of Christ's chosen few followers.
Php 1:15 Some are preaching the Messiah because of jealousy and dissension, while others do so because of their good will.
v. 16 The latter are motivated by love, because they know that I have been appointed to defend the gospel.
v. 17 The former proclaim the Messiah because they are selfishly ambitious and insincere, thinking that they will stir up trouble for me during my imprisonment.
v. 18 But so what? Just this—that in every way, whether by false or true motives, the Messiah is being proclaimed. Because of this, I rejoice and will continue to rejoice. (ISV)
Luke 9:49 John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us."
v. 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.
I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.
The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.
If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?
I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.
Rick, I really do get it that God is in control of all things and yes as long as we are in this flesh we are subject to error. Sometimes I wonder if we might overthink some of these things and just get stuck. But to desire to be among the chosen few is always a good thing whatever the motive, even if you are not chosen it would still benefit you to seek Christ. Anyway here is a couple of Scripture that show how they dealt with people that were outside of Christ's chosen few followers.
Php 1:15 Some are preaching the Messiah because of jealousy and dissension, while others do so because of their good will.
v. 16 The latter are motivated by love, because they know that I have been appointed to defend the gospel.
v. 17 The former proclaim the Messiah because they are selfishly ambitious and insincere, thinking that they will stir up trouble for me during my imprisonment.
v. 18 But so what? Just this—that in every way, whether by false or true motives, the Messiah is being proclaimed. Because of this, I rejoice and will continue to rejoice. (ISV)
Luke 9:49 John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us."
v. 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Very interesting scriptures Kat. I've read them before but I havn't pondered them long. Such an interesting topic in that regard.
God bless,
Alex
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I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.
I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.
The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.
If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?
I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.
Rick, I really do get it that God is in control of all things and yes as long as we are in this flesh we are subject to error. Sometimes I wonder if we might overthink some of these things and just get stuck. But to desire to be among the chosen few is always a good thing whatever the motive, even if you are not chosen it would still benefit you to seek Christ. Anyway here is a couple of Scripture that show how they dealt with people that were outside of Christ's chosen few followers.
Php 1:15 Some are preaching the Messiah because of jealousy and dissension, while others do so because of their good will.
v. 16 The latter are motivated by love, because they know that I have been appointed to defend the gospel.
v. 17 The former proclaim the Messiah because they are selfishly ambitious and insincere, thinking that they will stir up trouble for me during my imprisonment.
v. 18 But so what? Just this—that in every way, whether by false or true motives, the Messiah is being proclaimed. Because of this, I rejoice and will continue to rejoice. (ISV)
Luke 9:49 John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us."
v. 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
If one is incline to be here and to learn from Rays teaching it must be of God and yes I do agree its very beneficial to learn as much as one is afforded to learn from Rays teaching, as you know, his teachings are of God.
I also thought about that aspect too of not being the elect and had question that saying why stay,
first, being in the white throne judgement with false doctrine initially must be a frightful thing to believe your going to be cast into a fiery torment without end without any hope of being released.
2nd being in the white throne judgement with the understanding of this forum is a good thing, 1st we know there is no such place as hell as taught by Christendom 2nd we know what Gods plan for all humanity is so there is a great advantage to learn the things of God now.
Although we are no different from the rest of humanity we are specially blessed by God to learn these things now which indeed do give us hope for being in the first resurrection and if we discover our hope was false, we know it shall not be false the 2nd time around but with certainty except for those who will not be forgiven in this aged 0r the next age to come because they gave credit to Satan rather than God and by doing so they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit such as the pharisee who said Christ expelled demons by the chief demon.
I think there is something to be said of those here who are forever questioning everything about themselves, their faith and about their sins, the base things of this world will know and understand if resurrected in the first resurrection it truly was of God and not themselves, there shall be no boasting but only thankfulness.
I want to be in the first resurrection but more over, its what Christ wants but if I am excepting of being in the first resurrection I should also be excepting of the 2nd and maybe its that, excepting Gods choice regardless of what we want, after all, is there someone who does not agree that Father knows best.
Kat, I always thank you for your response, sometimes I learn from them other times you reinforce what I already know making me stronger in that knowledge. I see You’re a very caring person with a good understanding of Gods truths and you’re a great spiritual asset to this forum as well.
God bless you Kat and everyone else too. :)
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Thank you very much, Alex.
God bless you, too.
Sincerely,
Randy
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This post has been much help to me,my heart goes out to Rick as it seems we were cut from the same cloth, i also know we all are in a fight like we've never known before but as hard as it is i still have unspeakable Joy knowing these beautiful truths of God there's so much i don't understand yet, so i try to meditate on what Jesus has shown me so far, i tell you this i'm in Love with this man from Galilee no matter how hard it gets i still feel love and joy.
We are so much help to one another whether we realize it or not and that's not by chance either and i agree with Rick on this also,
Kat, I always thank you for your response, sometimes I learn from them other times you reinforce what I already know making me stronger in that knowledge. I see You’re a very caring person with a good understanding of Gods truths and you’re a great spiritual asset to this forum as well.
God bless you Kat and everyone else too.
Love you all
Terry
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I will say this place is unequivocally a blessing to me. I come here to fellowship with like minded believers, and I think we really need this. I know that it can be hard to share exactly what we are thinking in our conversations, and so misunderstandings do occur. But I think if we desire the contact enough and strive to not be offended, it is of great benefit to us. So I will continue to insert myself into these discussions and hope we all can gain a positive benefit from this less than perfect attempt at communicating.
We are a family and that includes to good the bad and the ugly aspects of it ;D
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This post has been much help to me,my heart goes out to Rick as it seems we were cut from the same cloth, i also know we all are in a fight like we've never known before but as hard as it is i still have unspeakable Joy knowing these beautiful truths of God there's so much i don't understand yet, so i try to meditate on what Jesus has shown me so far, i tell you this i'm in Love with this man from Galilee no matter how hard it gets i still feel love and joy.
Terry, it is nice to hear about the love and joy you are feeling. The indwelling of God's spirit will produce "spiritual fruit" in us and this fruit will be evident in our lives. :)
Gal. 5:22-23 - "But, the fruit of the Spirit is—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, graciousness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control;—against such things as these, there is no law."
Gal. 5:25 - "If we live by Spirit, by Spirit, let us also walk."
René
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Rick, I don't think I understand what you are saying here, " Although we are no different from the rest of humanity we are specially blessed by God to learn these things now which indeed do give us hope for being in the first resurrection and if we discover our hope was false, we know it shall not be false the 2nd time around but with certainty except for those who will not be forgiven in this aged 0r the next age to come because they gave credit to Satan rather than God and by doing so they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit such as the pharisee who said Christ expelled demons by the chief demon."
My question is about "those who will not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come". Just to clarify I don't think you are saying that there are those who will not ultimately be reconciled but the way it is written I am not sure.
This has been a very good discussion- I appreciate those who have posted.
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This post has been much help to me,my heart goes out to Rick as it seems we were cut from the same cloth
Hi Terry,
You must see things in my writings that you can identify with, you don’t post that much here so I’ve not been afforded the same connection with you of course.
I come from a background of broken promises and a broken home, I have more memories of my mom than my dad, you see he wasn’t there Terry, it’s the hand of cards God dealt me.
Part of my life was spent growing up in the gangsters paradise seeing things and hearing things that are not good for a child to see or hear, no, I have no desire to be a gangster, I want to be a godly man.
I’ve heard it said we are a product of our environment but I don’t believe that because I know what my environment says I should be but am not.
I come to realize the hand of cards God dealt me was not design to beat another man but to beat the man of sin ( me ). Knowing what I know today if I could go back in time and change something in my past I would let it remain because my past is what got me to where I’m at today and all this, design by God.
Many people I’ve know at a young age didn’t make it, some died from a drug overdose and some were murdered but I’m still alive, I believe God wants me to keep living until I receive His truths, God wants me to keep living to the man of sin is conquered.
Yes, God wants me to die before I get to rest in the biggest prison on earth, the grave yard.
If you can relate to these things then we are cut from the same cloth if not I’m happy for you and thankful these things you cannot relate to.
God bless you terry and always remember the things Ray taught, his teaching are from God and God has given us the greatest hope not many in this life have.
God bless. :)
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Rick, I don't think I understand what you are saying here, " Although we are no different from the rest of humanity we are specially blessed by God to learn these things now which indeed do give us hope for being in the first resurrection and if we discover our hope was false, we know it shall not be false the 2nd time around but with certainty except for those who will not be forgiven in this aged 0r the next age to come because they gave credit to Satan rather than God and by doing so they have committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit such as the pharisee who said Christ expelled demons by the chief demon."
My question is about "those who will not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come". Just to clarify I don't think you are saying that there are those who will not ultimately be reconciled but the way it is written I am not sure.
This has been a very good discussion- I appreciate those who have posted.
He is referencing this:
Matthew 12:30-32
30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [Greek: AGE] , neither in the world [Greek: AGE] to come.
Mar 3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming,
Mar 3:29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-"
Everyone will ultimately be reconciled.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Col 1:12-20 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS HACE THEIR COHESION. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him TO RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
God bless,
Alex
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My question is about "those who will not be forgiven in this age or the next age to come". Just to clarify I don't think you are saying that there are those who will not ultimately be reconciled but the way it is written I am not sure.
Hi Octoberose,
My apologies for the confusion, we are in the first age and some in this age are being called by God which are His elect ( the few ) , the next age ( the many )will stand before the white throne judgement but there will be people being born in the next age also that will be like the many in this age who are not being called by God at that time, so there is another aged afterwards where they shall go through the lake of fire as we are now.
We are at the beginning of Gods plan and how many ages Gods plan will take I don’t know but I do know at some age Christ will hand the keys of the kingdom to His Father and our Father and then the ages of reconciliation will then be over and after that I have not a clue what Gods plan will be but I do know there will be no more sorrow or pain or tears and evil will not exist.
And when these things come to pass, every age after that will be awesome beyond our understanding now.
Everyone will eventually be save because that is Gods will and Gods will, will be done but there are at least two more ages of what is going on in this age but Gods elect will not suffer in the next age or any other age afterwards.
God bless. :)
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but there will be people being born in the next age also that will be like the many in this age who are not being called by God at that time, so there is another aged afterwards where they shall go through the lake of fire as we are now.
Hi Rick, here's a thought, do we know "there will be people being born in the next age"? Not trying to cause confusion, but understand what exactly the Scripture say on these things. I don't know of any that say there will continue to be births after this age... but there is a exchange between Jesus and the Sadducees that seems to indicate there will not be.
Mat 22:23 The same day Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection, and they asked him a question,
v. 24 saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.'
v. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother.
v. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh.
v. 27 After them all, the woman died.
v. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her."
v. 29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
v. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Jesus was not speaking to believers, nor does it seem like the resurrection He speaks of is the first resurrection. Yes there will be ages to go, because "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt 12:32). When you think about it, the next ages are for judgment and giving account for what was done in this age.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
If "death shall be no more" where is the continuing cycle of life and death? I could see how this cycle of physical birth and life and death would come to an end with this age, but this is just another one of those things to ponder.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
I see these verses in reference to the next age, when Gods elect shall reign with Christ, Isa 65:20 to me is talking about a sinner, Isa 65:21 to 24 is about Gods elect and Isa 65 :25 doesn’t happen in this age because the wolf and the lamb do not eat together and if I might add, for good reasoning on the lambs part.
This is why I think maybe the next age shall find people being born into it and we know Christ said to the pharisee that he will not be forgiven in this age nor the next but we do know its Gods will that all be saved, but still there must be two more ages that God must work through to get everyone saved.
I don’t believe its going to be just that one pharisee who will be in the third age learning righteousness so there must be some in the next age who will find themselves in the third age learning righteousness as well and could be some that are being born in the next age, yes Christ said they do error, but even though they will not marry or be given in marriage means nothing in this age because unmarried people do give birth and so maybe in the next age they do the same thing as they do in this age.
I don’t know for sure but for me it seems that could be the case.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
God bless. :)
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Rick, what Jesus was saying in Matt 12 about those He was referring to that would not be forgiven even in the next, we just do not know of who else might have to go into that age to be saved.
As far as Isaiah 65, i too think that is speaking of the next age, look at how it reads in the Eastern Standard Version.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days...
And here are a couple more about children, that I think is talking about the next age too.
Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
When you think that there will be a great number of babies in the resurrection, so there will be plenty of children that will have to be nurtured and grow up in the next age that's for sure and "death shall be no more.".
Now as far people fornicating and producing children in the next age... I just do not see that happening under Christ's reign, He will rule with a "rod of iron" and so will the elect.
Rev 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:
v. 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of My Father:
I believe the next age will be quite opposite of this age, where as "everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes" (Deu 12:08). No what God said will be true, people will learn righteousness and obey Him.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
I see what you mean concerning some speculation on my part which if it cannot be proven scripturally it remains in the realm of speculation which can be misleading and confusing.
I do agree with you that the next age will be totally different from this aged because of the scriptures that tell me so.
The next age, the child shall lie beside the lion and not be hurt, there will not be in the next aged what we see in this age and all will learn righteousness and no wrong doing will happen on Gods Holy mountain.
It will be a beautiful aged for a child to grow up in compared to this aged we live in now. I can hardly wait for the next aged to arrive.
Thanks for the correction and guidance Kat,
God bless. :)
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There will be sexual relations between men and women in the age to come.
Mat 22:23-30 is speaking of the 1st Resurrection because in verse 30 Jesus says we will be like the angels in heaven, that is made of spirit.
As Ray has taught, those in the 2nd Resurrection, or the Resurrection to Judgment, will not have spirit bodies, but will be resurrected with physical bodies. Reference the Book of Ezechiel and the valley of dry bones.
Sex is a good thing. God created us male and female. Males and females will be attracted to one another, be allowed to marry, and will produce children. There is a Scripture that children will play in the streets of Jerusalem in the age to come.
Sex differences are a major fact among living things. Created and blessed by the Great God.
Satan and His Great False Church teach that sex is dirty. Something to be ashamed of. It is another lie of Satan. The Scriptures tell us that in addition to controlling what we eat, it is the doctrine of demons to forbid marriage and to change the proper use of sex.
Even among resurrected spirit beings, they will have sexual differences; they will be male and female; God will have sons and daughters. But I will say no more about that. It would be too much for some among us. ;D
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John, did not Jesus say in Matt 22 very specifically what He was speaking of?
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.
The Sadducees was speaking about whose wife the woman (not speaking to believers and no mention of them) would be in the resurrection and Christ was speaking of that issue, marriage in the next age. There is nothing in the passage that indicates this is speaking of spiritual bodies of the elect, you have to read that into it. This verse merely is saying the angels do not marry and neither will those in the next.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes, Kat, I agree Jesus was specific in what He said in Mat 22:30.
He was talking about marriage not about sex. Marriage and sex are two different things, which is why they are two different words.
And as Ray mentioned in his article on marriage, sex is not required to make a marriage. Two different things.
But I am going to bow out of this discussion, and I'll tell you why. I have my opinion about sex after the 1st Resurrection. But I do not have at least two Scriptures to support that opinion.
But those who say no sex after the 1st Resurrection, do not have at least two Scriptures to support their opinion either.
God just does not discuss the subject in the Scriptures. We actually do not have that much solid knowledge of what it will be like in the Resurrection. Although there is much speculation.
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Thank you all for the reply. I thought that was what you were speaking about but it was something like 4 in the morning when I was reading and I wanted to clarify!
I think I'm still on topic - well sort of- so let me ask this. We're talking about the first resurrection and what God has in store for the elect and then the 2nd resurrection which is the white throne judgement. What I have never been clear about is after the elect meet Jesus and are changed in a twinkling of an eye- what happens to everyone else until their judgement? You've touched on it but it's been a big black hole in my understanding. Are we to understand that a 1000 years is a literal amount of time, or is it a symbol of whatever time God has in store?
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Yes, the 1,000 years are symbolic. As is the Book of Revelation. It is written in symbols.
As Ray mentioned, all the symbols are explained elsewhere in the Scriptures. In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established, as guided by the Holy Spirit.
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Actually John, there is this same thing spoken of in Luke 20 in more detail.
Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife.
v. 34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
v. 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
v. 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
v. 37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
v. 38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
Now less you think that this passage that these "children of God" is speaking of the elect, this is in the next age, it's not in respect to their character, but nature as they're “being the children of the resurrection,” as it goes on to say Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be also at resurrection. Also it states in Revelation in the next age God will dwell among the people.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God and they His son.
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
v. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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With my soul I desired Thee in the night, Also, with my spirit within me I seek Thee earnestly, For when Thy judgments are on the earth, The inhabitants of the world have learned righteousness Isaiah 26:9
When God judgments are upon the earth the inhabitants of the whole world will learn righteousness.
In the resurrection to judgments the gay and lesbian people will learn righteousness.
Gay people will be punished and be corrected to become man and to sleep with woman
the same as;
Lesbian people will be punished and be corrected to become woman and to sleep with man.
nothing that i can imagine that these people will be corrected but to experience the true nature that the man is to a woman and a woman is to a man, and not man for man or woman for woman.
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Can you imagine if God did remove marriage and sex in the next age just how much of the problems that we see in society would be removed as well? I think there is so many ways to learn righteousness that does not involved carnal/worldly lusts and desires.
Col 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
v. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Sex is a product of lust. Period. It is only for a season, it is not forever. As a consequence of sex, children have been born because, as Ray said, God wants many children to be in God's family. But if there was no lust, there would be no children in God's family (I suppose God could just create a bunch of little Jesuses, but there is something that comes from lust (sin) that becomes the necessary backdrop of evil, which is what shows up goodness and righteousness. Without sin there could be no virtue. But there is absolutely nothing virtuous about sex because it is a product of lust. Lust (which leads to
sex DEATH) draws people away from God never to Him. But that is part of the plan. Come on...
Remember, as Ray pointed out, that Adam and Eve didn't have any sex until after they sinned. They saw that they were naked and were ashamed and covered themselves. 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
Why make clothes to cover them if being naked was a good thing? When have you ever had sex and imagined God or Jesus in the room watching you, and felt comfortable having sex at that very moment? When?
"Who told you that you were naked?! Did you eat of the fruit which I commanded you NOT to eat?
Of course, they had to eat it because otherwise how was God going to have all these sons and daughters to worship Him and Jesus? I
Paul had a lot to say about sex and marriage. He never forbade any to marry but this is how it truly is:
1 Timothy 5
9 Do not include a widow’s name in the list of widows unless she is more than 60 years old. She must have been the wife of one husband.
10 People should know that she has done good things. She must have been a good mother to her children. She should have been happy to have visitors in her home. She should have helped God’s people. She should have been like a servant who washes their feet. She should have helped people who had trouble. She must have continued to do all kinds of good things.
11 Refuse to include younger widows’ names in the list, for this reason: When they want to have sex, they will want to marry again. They will want to marry [have sex] MORE than they want to be Christ’s servants. Then they will stop being Christ’s servants.
12 So, they will not do what they had promised earlier to do for Christ. They will be wrong not to do that. And God will know that they are wrong.
KJV 12 thus incurring condemnation [not "commendation"], because they have set aside their previous pledge. (Left their First (highest love) for the thrill of sex.)
13 They will also learn to be lazy. They will go about from house to house. And not only will they become lazy. They will also learn to talk too much. They will become busy talking wrongly about other people. And they will say things that they ought not to say.
14 So, I think that younger widows should marry. They should have children. And they should look after their homes. Then they will not give an enemy any chance to say bad things about them.
15 Some of the younger widows have already turned away from Christ, so that they can obey Satan (get married for the sole purpose of having sex - that's why Paul said they should have children, because when you have children your sexual appetite typically diminishes because you're exhausted and you're in God's face more than you are in your earthly husband's arms).
Yes, the marriage bed should be pure and undefiled. They shouldn't be denying each other sex because in marriage your body is no longer yours -- how sexy is it to hear: "You owe me!"? Men can laugh about that, and think, I'd love the sound of that -- that's man's dream come true!
But what if they had an unattractive, fat, smelly wife?
Jesus never had sex. That didn't diminish Him in the slightest. Why, if sex is so "good" did Jesus never have it? And why if sex is so good and so satisfying, do people feel the need to do it over and over and over and over again. And why if sex is so good does sex with the same person become boring and a chore after many years of it? Why do people cheat on their spouses and feel guilty for even having sexual fantasies and viewing porn if sex is so "good," this "gift" to be sought after? What happens when you put sex in those categories and then find that your spouse can't have sex? Does your life suddenly fall apart? It shouldn't fall apart because sex is not that great -- it is something animals can do all the time. To think sex is good you must have an appetite for it. But what if you don't have a sexual appetite (like Jesus didn't have a sexual appetite)? Are you doing something bad because you're not having sex, which some seek because they think it is "good"?
The only physical sex in the resurrection to judgment, if there is any, won't be had by the residents in the kingdom.
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To add to Gina's post:
Jas 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Ray on more than one occasion told me he thinks there will be something much better than sex in the next life. We both agree that there is something about the marriage of a man and woman that will be greatly amplified in the next life. A "shadow of things to come."
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
I have no interest in being anyone's bride, :) but it is symbolic afterall.
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Thanks, Dennis! I also believe that physical marriage is a shadow of the real thing. Didn't Ray say, "Do you want the shadow or the thing that casts the shadow?" (I hope I said that right.)
Adam knew his wife and they became one FLESH. But Jesus Christ is telling us to become One even as He and His Father are One. One what? One FLESH?
Does anyone actually think that He is commanding us to break God's spiritual laws and have lust and sex with one another because that is how we become One, even as He and His Father are One? He and His Father are not "One" flesh. And He and His Father are not One" because they had sex with each other.
I agree there is something so much better that God has waiting for those who believe Him.
And if physical sex is so good and this "gift" from on high, then why did Adam and Eve have to break fellowship with God and disobey Him and believe a lie and hide from God in order to sink low enough to be able to crave sex? Once they were hiding from God, all they had as far as they could see, which wasn't very far, were each other. There was no room for God in their hearts where they were hiding -- they didn't want Him there either because now they were afraid of Him and you don't want someone you're afraid of around you. God never encouraged them to do any of that.
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We should feel bad for all those poor Muslims expecting their 72 virgins. They may get them but all they can do is look :(
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I rather would feel sorry for the 72 virgins being lusted after like that by a bunch of ..... LOL .... dogs.
Hopefully what I'm about to say is in keeping with the original post - losing the Holy Spirit. If not, sorry. I noticed something really interesting in Genesis recently. This was an eye opener to me and I was amazed.
Gen 2
7 Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.
8 Then the LORD God planted a garden in Eden in the east, and there he placed the man he had made.
9 The LORD God made all sorts of trees grow up from the ground—trees that were beautiful and that produced delicious fruit. In the middle of the garden he placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Do you see that? First He formed the man out of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils. Then, after man had already become a living soul, God then planted the Garden in Eden where the tree of life and the tree of knowledge were.
Then after that God went back and got the man and placed the man in the Garden of Eden (God means "placer").
I have read that a zillion times and only recently realized that Adam (the man) was not formed from the dust of the ground in the Garden of Eden.... !!
Okay, so it gets more interesting. So then, Adam's there and he's all lonely and God puts him to sleep and builds up woman for him, and then Satan enters the Garden of Eden, deceives Eve, and God throws them both out of the Garden .... wait for it....
Gen 2:23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.
Wow! Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, he wasn't made or formed there in the very beginning !
Then, Adam screwed up, got kicked out of the Garden, and God put him back in the place from which he was originally made to till the ground that God made him from... wow! Remember? There was no man to till the soil? God never said there was no man to till the Garden of Eden... God didn't need Adam to till the soil in the Garden of Eden apparently because everything was already in full bloom and all their needs were met!
I don't know... What do you all think? What does it all represent? It's like, God's just moving them all over the place! (And Christians think they have free will and God doesn't direct their steps!) God's forming man in one place and then placing him in a ready made garden, and then kicking him out and putting man back in the place where he was made, to till the soil there to reap thorns and thistles by the sweat of his brow.
Maybe I am getting this wrong, but when God asked Adam to tend to the garden of Eden, God wasn't asking Adam to work the ground/ soil in order to make anything grow, because Eden was already planted for them and full grown and waiting for them by the time God placed them in it. This is how it appears to me. To tend means to work, of course, but it mainly means to minister to or to oversee or protect or guard. Wow. This is fascinating to me. I don't know about the rest of you...
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What utter ignorance of the Scriptures.
Sex was created by God and it was good.
Only unlawful sex is condemned as sin.
It is O.K. for married couples to lust (desire) after one another. Only unlawful lust is sin.
You have an entire book of Scriptures, the Song of Songs, that describes sexual desires between a man and woman. It is a book of Scripture. It is one of the five festival scrolls, which were read during one of the annual holy festivals.
Do you know when the Song of Songs was officially read? During the Passover. A book about physical love was read during the festival that represented the love between Christ and humanity.
This hatred of sex is not of God. Satan's church has an underlying disapproval of one aspect of God's creation.
There is a Scripture that tells us that the spiritual can be understood by the physical creation. Sex among human kind, animal kind, and even plant kind is a pervasive aspect of life---created by God.
This aversion to lawful sex was not known among the Hebrews or in their Scriptures. It was only with the formation of the false Cristian churches did you have this condemnation of sex.
In fact, Scriptures tell us in the last days, such teachings are the doctrines of demons.
So beware of your words and your teachings.
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I don't see sex mentioned in the Song of Songs at all. I see no mention of sexual intercourse. Where is it? You're imagining that. You see kisses? So what? What makes you think they're french kissing? These are all symbols of something far more glorious than physical sex. Solomon was inspired to write these things but who understands? Not the prophet Solomon, who in all his glory -- all his wealth, status and wives, was not even arrayed as one of these.... lilies of the field, as Jesus pointed out.
How many wives did Solomon have? Do you honestly think that he was commended by God for his wanton, craven desires, for which he was never, EVER satisfied?
Per Kings "Solomon had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God..."
Solomon was inspired to write in Eccl 7:
26 I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare,
whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains.
The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare.
[Solomon was ensnared...]
28 while I was still searching but not finding— I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all.
I hardly think that Solomon, after all that, was inspired to write in Songs so highly of an earthly female (having not found one upright woman among them ALL) in the context of a physical marriage relationship.
He was speaking of something spiritual. God's word is spirit, and all who worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. The FLESH profits nothing.
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Sometimes I think, John, the only reason you want to be in God's presence is because of the women you hope to sleep with some day. I think more likely you would hate God and turn your back on Him if you were to discover that mere messy sexual intercourse (which isn't always pleasurable for the woman) isn't what God has in store for those who love Him.
It sounds like you are angry at the prospect of not getting sex in the hereafter.
There is no "wisdom" in the act of sexual intercourse. If there is, tell us why Jesus held up bread and wine and said, eat and drink this in remembrance of Me?
Aside from children (which many couples cannot have), what have you gained from having sex, John? Love? Do you really think sex is love?
And you call me ignorant of the scriptures. I think you are ignorant of your own wanton craven needs, and you are not seeking God but the thrill of sex in order that you might be worshiped and adored and made to feel "good" because you are an extremely insecure human being who talks (like the women Paul talked about in Timothy) too much! Don't wear your (exceedingly weak) heart on your sleeve, like that, John! Don't let it "hang all out" for the entire world to see! Cover it up, buttercup!
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Sometimes I think, John, the only reason you want to be in God's presence is because of the women you hope to sleep with some day. I think more likely you would hate God and turn your back on Him if you were to discover that mere messy sexual intercourse (which isn't always pleasurable for the woman) isn't what God has in store for those who love Him.
It sounds like you are angry at the prospect of not getting sex in the hereafter.
There is no "wisdom" in the act of sexual intercourse. If there is, tell us why Jesus held up bread and wine and said, eat and drink this in remembrance of Me?
Aside from children (which many couples cannot have), what have you gained from having sex, John? Love? Do you really think sex is love?
And you call me ignorant of the scriptures. I think you are ignorant of your own wanton craven needs, and you are not seeking God but the thrill of sex in order that you might be worshiped and adored and made to feel "good" because you are an extremely insecure human being who talks (like the women Paul talked about in Timothy) too much! Don't wear your (exceedingly weak) heart on your sleeve, like that, John! Don't let it "hang all out" for the entire world to see! Cover it up, buttercup!
Can sweet water come from a bitter well?
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I am not talking about this current physical life where sex is necessary:
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
But in the next life:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
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28 Peter began to say to Him, "Behold, we have left everything and followed You."
29 Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel's sake,
30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life
They will be receiving in the present age, now, not just hundred times as much houses and brother and sisters and mothers and children and farms, but with all of that ... persecutions. Then, in the age to come, they will receive eternal life.
Imagine that they, in the present age, received hundreds times more houses and brothers and sisters (Luke mentioned having left "wives") and children, etc., Jesus said His words are spirit and truth. So they received all that, but it was a spiritual family of brothers and wives and sisters and children, not literally; otherwise, they would have all had to have gotten married hundreds of times over! Which would have been adultery!
Acts 2
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
That's many hundreds times more than what they left, right? They received all that right along with persecutions....
I hardly think that Paul and the other Apostles were having sex with all these spiritual "wives" that the Lord gave to them to be in the spiritual family of God, when it was they who were preaching against adultery and perverseness, and about being saved from a perverse generation.
Paul said he was content to remain unmarried. Although, there was a time when he spoke about wanting a wife of his own (I think), that was not his mission in life.
Besides, how was he going to take care of wife and children with all the care of the churches and all of his persecutions? I don't think Paul was so callous as to not realize that he would be bringing all his persecutions into a marriage and family. I don't think Paul was earthly minded:
One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and his interests are divided.
Paul's interests were not divided.
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Dennis,
I believe Galatians is more of a reference to the fact that God is no respecter (Acts 10:34, 1 Peter 1:17) of persons and less about whether the differences between men and women will cease. We have many verses which testify to the fact that God is making children (men and women) and specifically a reference to son's and daughters, which infers a sexual difference between the two genders must continue to exist if we are to continue as son's and daughters in the next age.
Romans 8:14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children [males and female] of God.
2 Corinthians 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
God bless,
Alex
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I am not talking about this current physical life where sex is necessary:
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
But in the next life:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Hello Dennis,
Alex stated my thoughts regarding Gal 3:28. God is no respecter of persons. Men will not be treated superior to women in the world to come.
But the Scriptures he quoted indicate there will be sexual differences. What is the difference between sons and daughters? Their sexual parts. If no sexual differences, then instead of sons and daughters, God would have its and its. One reason God is so opposed to homosexuality is God made them male and female. God does not approve when humans try to change the way He made things.
And the verse you quoted from Mark. Jesus said they would not marry in the Resurrection. It is the Greek word gameo---marriage. Jesus didn't say anything about sex. Marriage and sex are two different words---two different things.
As I said before, no one can provide two Scriptures that say no sex. People are just giving personal opinions and getting emotional about something that God does not specifically discuss, either way.
Peace. God will sort it all out.
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I think Galatians is a reference to the fact that those who are One with Christ are so entwined with Him ( or "clothed" with Him) and the things of God that you won't be able to tell them apart.
No one will be able to tell them apart because they have become just like Him having been clothed with Christ. Nobody will be able to see where Christ begins and His spiritual "bride" (brothers and sisters/flock) ends, for lack of a better phrase.
They may have differences (according to the world's standards), but they themselves (his flock/bride) aren't looking at the differences between themselves and comparing themselves with one another in a worldly manner and sizing each other up.
There will not be any major differences between them -- because they will act and talk and behave like Christ having clothed themselves with Him (or having been clothed by Him).
Gal. 3
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
They just aren't looking on the outward appearances any more because they all pretty much look like Christ.
There’s a Rock Opera, ‘Jesus Christ Superstar’ Anyone ever heard of that? In there, there’s a song - Mary Magdalene sings this song and it’s entitled, ‘I don’t know how to love Him.’ It goes like this…
JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR:
I Don't Know How To Love Him
MARY MAGDALENE--
I don't know how to love him.
What to do, how to move him...
...I don't see why he moves me.
HE’S A MAN. HE’S JUST A MAN
And I've had so many men before,
In very many ways,
He's just one more.
Should I bring him down?
Should I scream and shout?
Should I speak of love,
Let my feelings out?
I never thought I'd come to this.
What's it all about?
Is that Jesus, just a man some girl might fall in lust over, just a man?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99632.html#msg99632
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And the verse you quoted from Mark. Jesus said they would not marry in the Resurrection. It is the Greek word gameo---marriage. Jesus didn't say anything about sex. Marriage and sex are two different words---two different things.
As I said before, no one can provide two Scriptures that say no sex. People are just giving personal opinions and getting emotional about something that God does not specifically discuss, either way.
Peace. God will sort it all out.
John, the Bible clearly prohibits all sexual relations outside of marriage.
Heb 13:4 Let marriage be had in honor among all, and let the bed be undefiled: for fornicators and adulterers God will judge. (ASV)
Homosexuality forbidden Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:24-28
Bestiality forbidden Leviticus 18:23
So if there is no marriage in the next age, where is the sexual relations?
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication(G4202), uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
v. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
G4202 porneia - harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John, the Bible clearly prohibits all sexual relations outside of marriage.
-Kat
Yes, you are correct Kat. In this age.
But I wonder about the ages to come. I wonder why God will have sons and daughters if no sex? There is the Scripture that says, At your right hand are pleasures evermore.
You have to understand. I do not see in the Scriptures where God made a mistake in creating sexual differences. Sex by itself is not evil. Like everything else, it is the unlawful use of something that makes it a sin
I don't know. No definitive Scriptures about this point in the ages to come. I will ask again. Do you have two definitive Scriptures that will answer this question? Not two Scriptures that you tell us what they mean. But two Scriptures that will stand alone, without editorial input?
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John, the Bible clearly prohibits all sexual relations outside of marriage.
-Kat
Yes, you are correct Kat. In this age.
But I wonder about the ages to come. I wonder why God will have sons and daughters if no sex? There is the Scripture that says, At your right hand are pleasures evermore.
You have to understand. I do not see in the Scriptures where God made a mistake in creating sexual differences. Sex by itself is not evil. Like everything else, it is the unlawful use of something that makes it a sin
I don't know. No definitive Scriptures about this point in the ages to come. I will ask again. Do you have two definitive Scriptures that will answer this question? Not two Scriptures that you tell us what they mean. But two Scriptures that will stand alone, without editorial input?
Who here said God made a mistake making sexual differences? It's only men and women who look on the outward appearance and not on the heart who have problems with that.
You say, "I wonder why God would have sons and daughters if no sex?"
Really?
Jesus Christ came into existence without ever being conceived through sexual intercourse, DUH!
So that means HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS WILL ALSO BECOME SONS AND DAUGHTERS THROUGH THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!
There is sex now in this present age, you think a hundred billion people throughout the ages aren't enough children for God to fill with the Holy Spirit? He needs us to have more wantonness and craving for physical sex to bring Him pleasure?
That's stupid, haha!!
You said that, "but doesn't scripture say, At your right hand are pleasures evermore."
Does "scripture" really and truly insinuate that pleasure cannot be had without sexual intercourse, John? Obviously it can be had because Jesus Christ is pleasure and Jesus Christ has sat down at God's right hand!
Concordant Literal Version
Psalm 16:11 I poise Yahweh in front of me continually; Because He is at my right hand, I shall not slip at all."
9 Wherefore, my heart rejoices, and my glory shall exult; Indeed, my flesh, it shall tabernacle in serenity."
10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
11 You shall acquaint me with the path of life; Satisfying rejoicings are in Your presence; PLEASANTNESS is at Your right hand. {Permanent}
Definition of Pleasant: (of a person or their manner) friendly and considerate; likable. "they found him pleasant and cooperative"
synonyms: friendly, agreeable, amiable, nice, genial, cordial, likable, amicable, good-humored, good-natured, personable; hospitable, approachable, gracious, courteous, polite, obliging, helpful, considerate; charming, lovely, delightful, sweet, sympathetic, simpatico
I don't see the word sexual in any of those synonyms for pleasure.
What is at the "right hand of God"? Pleasure/pleasantness
Who is at the right hand of God?
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God,
Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Matthew 22:44
"'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'
(Doesn't sound to me like being a footstool for His feet will be pleasurable position to find yourself in.)
And I could list out another 2 or 3 which says Jesus Christ is at the right of God.
What exactly are you insinuating God's right hand is doing, John? Are you trying to be ssssssssssubtle, or does it just come naturally to you?
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So Jesus' own words in Matt 22:30 and Luke 20:35 saying there will be no marriage in the age to come is not enough for you? Really? And do you wonder in the ages to come if maybe the commandment of "you shall not commit adultery" will be done away with? Really?
This age serves many purpose and sex is one of them, but it is a thing of the flesh... the next age will be learning righteousness, the things of the Spirit. What we are born as in this age (male or female) is part of who we are (just like with Christ) no need to change that. Your carnal desires seem to have made you blind to all the many Scripture that I and others have provided...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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John, the Bible clearly prohibits all sexual relations outside of marriage.
-Kat
Yes, you are correct Kat. In this age.
But I wonder about the ages to come. I wonder why God will have sons and daughters if no sex? There is the Scripture that says, At your right hand are pleasures evermore.
You have to understand. I do not see in the Scriptures where God made a mistake in creating sexual differences. Sex by itself is not evil. Like everything else, it is the unlawful use of something that makes it a sin
I don't know. No definitive Scriptures about this point in the ages to come. I will ask again. Do you have two definitive Scriptures that will answer this question? Not two Scriptures that you tell us what they mean. But two Scriptures that will stand alone, without editorial input?
Who here said God made a mistake making sexual differences? It's only men and women who look on the outward appearance and not on the heart who have problems with that.
You say, "I wonder why God would have sons and daughters if no sex?"
Really?
Jesus Christ came into existence without ever being conceived through sexual intercourse, DUH!
So that means HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS WILL ALSO BECOME SONS AND DAUGHTERS THROUGH THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT!
There is sex now in this present age, you think a hundred billion people throughout the ages aren't enough children for God to fill with the Holy Spirit? He needs us to have more wantonness and craving for physical sex to bring Him pleasure?
That's stupid, haha!!
You said that, "but doesn't scripture say, At your right hand are pleasures evermore."
Does "scripture" really and truly insinuate that pleasure cannot be had without sexual intercourse, John? Obviously it can be had because Jesus Christ is pleasure and Jesus Christ has sat down at God's right hand!
Concordant Literal Version
Psalm 16:11 I poise Yahweh in front of me continually; Because He is at my right hand, I shall not slip at all."
9 Wherefore, my heart rejoices, and my glory shall exult; Indeed, my flesh, it shall tabernacle in serenity."
10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
11 You shall acquaint me with the path of life; Satisfying rejoicings are in Your presence; PLEASANTNESS is at Your right hand. {Permanent}
Definition of Pleasant: (of a person or their manner) friendly and considerate; likable. "they found him pleasant and cooperative"
synonyms: friendly, agreeable, amiable, nice, genial, cordial, likable, amicable, good-humored, good-natured, personable; hospitable, approachable, gracious, courteous, polite, obliging, helpful, considerate; charming, lovely, delightful, sweet, sympathetic, simpatico
I don't see the word sexual in any of those synonyms for pleasure.
What is at the "right hand of God"? Pleasure/pleasantness
Who is at the right hand of God?
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God,
Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Matthew 22:44
"'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."'
(Doesn't sound to me like being a footstool for His feet will be pleasurable position to find yourself in.)
And I could list out another 2 or 3 which says Jesus Christ is at the right of God.
What exactly are you insinuating God's right hand is doing, John? Are you trying to be ssssssssssubtle, or does it just come naturally to you?
The hatred just bubbles up from within you. You cannot hide it.
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So Jesus' own words in Matt 22:30 and Luke 20:35 saying there will be no marriage in the age to come is not enough for you? Really? And do you wonder in the ages to come if maybe the commandment of "you shall not commit adultery" will be done away with? Really?
This age serves many purpose and sex is one of them, but it is a thing of the flesh... the next age will be learning righteousness, the things of the Spirit. What we are born as in this age (male or female) is part of who we are (just like with Christ) no need to change that. Your carnal desires seem to have made you blind to all the many Scripture that I and others have provided...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I expect such from Gina.
But Kat, just because someone disagrees with you, there is no need to be ill willed. (Mercy, peace and love. Really?)
My carnal desires. ::) And what would you know of them. Surely it will be Jesus Who judges such things.
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Sex is a carnal (1. of or relating to the body 2 : relating to or given to sensual pleasures and appetites - Merriam Webster) desire.
Col 3:5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication(G4202), uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
v. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
G4202 - harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
v. 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
v. 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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So Jesus' own words in Matt 22:30 and Luke 20:35 saying there will be no marriage in the age to come is not enough for you? Really? And do you wonder in the ages to come if maybe the commandment of "you shall not commit adultery" will be done away with? Really?
This age serves many purpose and sex is one of them, but it is a thing of the flesh... the next age will be learning righteousness, the things of the Spirit. What we are born as in this age (male or female) is part of who we are (just like with Christ) no need to change that. Your carnal desires seem to have made you blind to all the many Scripture that I and others have provided...
mercy, peace and love
Kat
I expect such from Gina.
But Kat, just because someone disagrees with you, there is no need to be ill willed. (Mercy, peace and love. Really?)
My carnal desires. ::) And what would you know of them. Surely it will be Jesus Who judges such things.
What would we know of your carnal desires, John? Out of the heart the mouth speaks and you speak an awful lot about how much you love to look at women and you think sex is so "good" and "pleasurable." And you say sex outside of marriage in the age to come is a possibility and God can't have children without sex playing apart in it. Where in sex was a child of God ever conceived. Jesus said, You must be born again (begotten anew). Not through sexual intercourse either.
I find it really hard to believe that you are saying that God's right hand (Jesus Christ)/ pleasure is about a physical and sexual pleasure.
Weird. I don't care if you think I'm ill willed. I have no ill will against you, I just don't like the things you say. And I think you're pretty weird. Sorry. No ill will -- it's just the way you are.
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I do agree that the strongest argument against sex in the next age is that only sex within a God ordained marriage is lawful and there will be no marrying in the next age.
That being said, it doesn't outright say there will be no sex but requires our inference to arrive at such a conclusion. We don't have all the pieces so I won't rule it out but am seeing both sides of the discussion as having validity. There could be something very similar to it as it is a pervasive aspect of our creation including the distinction between male and female.
To those whom it may concern:
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Romans 14:12-13 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
James 4:11-12 Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your another?
Ephesians 4:31-32 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
As members of His body, try and heed these warnings. I don't see anyone preaching another Messiah here, only disagreements a portion of the truth that is currently open to interpretation, so be nice!
God bless,
Alex
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Ok, once again a thread has totally gone off track. Time to move on.