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=> Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings => Topic started by: Duane on November 12, 2012, 11:01:23 PM

Title: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Duane on November 12, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it. 
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: John from Kentucky on November 12, 2012, 11:52:53 PM
Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Dennis Vogel on November 13, 2012, 09:28:48 AM
Quote
Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Exactly
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: arion on November 13, 2012, 10:28:47 AM
I'm active on a number of different forums and most forums allow you to have a signature line.  Mine always is;

    What is the lake of fire? What is it's purpose? Is the lake of fire eternal hell? Is there any hope of escape for those cast into this lake?
    http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


Then the link leads them back to the first lake of fire series.  I know for a fact that many have followed that link back here as I've gotten questions.  Most of the people that are from traditional Christendom think I'm nuts but several have read at least some of the papers and their lives have changed.  And it's interesting that several non believers that have rejected Christianity for the insanity of the teachings have told me that now things are making sense.

God draws those whom he will.  This is a simple silent witness and although most won't take the effort to look some will...and it is enough.  This can be done without teaching and without arguing and just providing a witness.  Just a thought and it's what I've done for several years now.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Kat on November 13, 2012, 10:46:27 AM

Hi Duane,

Quote
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?


Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

The Son was indeed the "beginning of God's creation." Because it was by/through Him, the Son, that the Father would do the great work of this creation.

John 1:3  All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

As Ray said the Father birthed wisdom, this creation is His conception. And in wisdom the Father brought forth a Son to be the Beginning and the End of this creation. It's not a question that the Father cannot do this, this is the Father's work being accomplished through the Son by the power of the Father, the Holy Spirit.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

All of this creation is the Father's work by/through Christ.

John 5:17  But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

John 14:10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

John 10:32  Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"

God the Father brought forth a Being, the Son, that is His exact replica (mind, character), but in a form and shape that His human creation could relate to and throught this Being the Father is doing the work of this creation.

John 14:9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?

John 8:28  Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

Mat 28:18  And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Rev 22:13  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Duane on November 13, 2012, 06:14:14 PM
Per usual--thank you ALL for your responses!  More are welcomed!
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: levycarneiro on November 14, 2012, 04:37:14 PM
Quote
Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Exactly

I remember Dave's comment on another (old) thread, something like this:

"These truths are for you"

Which reminds me of Matthew 13:11:

"...it is given unto YOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

In other words, no matter how hard we try, it will bounce right back at us. So no point.

How hard is to accept the "only you" part!


God bless,
Levy
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: levycarneiro on November 14, 2012, 05:09:18 PM
Just as a humour piece.

Tried to tell these truths in another forum, but the system is so closed that you need some "reputation points" to earn the right to reply/comment on any questions. Problem is: the only way to earn reputation points is via asking questions (!). You can't earn points by giving answers, no. So even if Jesus was physically here "trying" to reach the world with the full-disclosed truth on that forum, the system is so closed they wouldn't "give" Him a chance! hehe

Again, the truth is OURS today, to those GOD chooses to give it too tomorrow, and to everyone later.

God bless,
Levy
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Kat on November 14, 2012, 05:59:33 PM

Well how do we know exactly who "them" are? Yes I know it is those in the world/Babylon in general... but we were one of 'them' at one time. We are all called out of the world/Babylon. If somebody has a desire to preach or teach (not here) or just leave a witness somewhere, why would we ever discourage them from doing so  ???  Wasted time and effort on their part maybe, but maybe not, even if God uses you to reach one single person it would be worth it. I say if you desire to, then go for it.

Like Ray said, "I know God will eventually take everybody to be where they need to go, but sometimes God accelerates things, by the foolishness of preaching.  That's what I am doing."

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 15, 2012, 01:54:38 PM
I certainly don't believe in locking the door behind 'us'.  Every one of 'us' is a testamant to the hunger and thirst that is out there and will continue till this age is over, and beyond, I believe.  People believe because of the foolishness of preaching, though it's God that gives faith.  I don't know how many hits B-T gets in an average month, but I'm guessing many of the new hits (and probably most) read the subject headings and say to themselves "Not for me."  And they would be right....for now.

Duane, I think there are too many things that have to be understood before your question is answered.  Line upon line.  Precept upon precept.  Who says Spirit can't create anything?  Does scripture?  Maybe it does and I've never seen it. 

There may be a sense in which Spirit "can't" create anything, because fundamentally Spirit is already everything.  The world isn't created out of nothing. 

Anyway, that's all I got.  :)  It's kind of a theological question with too many assumptions (right or wrong). 
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: levycarneiro on November 21, 2012, 02:42:02 PM
I'm active on a number of different forums and most forums allow you to have a signature line.  Mine always is;

    What is the lake of fire? What is it's purpose? Is the lake of fire eternal hell? Is there any hope of escape for those cast into this lake?
    http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


Then the link leads them back to the first lake of fire series.  I know for a fact that many have followed that link back here as I've gotten questions.  Most of the people that are from traditional Christendom think I'm nuts but several have read at least some of the papers and their lives have changed.  And it's interesting that several non believers that have rejected Christianity for the insanity of the teachings have told me that now things are making sense.

God draws those whom he will.  This is a simple silent witness and although most won't take the effort to look some will...and it is enough.  This can be done without teaching and without arguing and just providing a witness.  Just a thought and it's what I've done for several years now.

Hello Arion! I had to "steal" your signature line :) I'm using this phrase in another Christian forum as my signature/profile and I hope God uses it to draw more to Him!

God bless
Levy
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: levycarneiro on November 21, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
I certainly don't believe in locking the door behind 'us'.  Every one of 'us' is a testamant to the hunger and thirst that is out there and will continue till this age is over, and beyond, I believe.  People believe because of the foolishness of preaching, though it's God that gives faith.  I don't know how many hits B-T gets in an average month, but I'm guessing many of the new hits (and probably most) read the subject headings and say to themselves "Not for me."  And they would be right....for now.

"Not for me"

I did that for a few months. But from time to time used to open the front page, glancing the paper titles and thinking "this guy must be a nutjob". I'm glad I'm one too now! :D

"Locking the door behind us"

Agree with both Kat and Dave. We can't help someone understand and believe. On the other side God uses us, even the preaching being foolish. So I'm always trying to find a "happy medium" where God leads me on the WHO and HOW and WHEN to testify. Failed miserably so far, but I hope to have at least 1 person to which I can fully explain what I learned and see this person being blessed and teaching others. Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 22, 2012, 01:10:02 AM
I hope that happens, Levy.

For me it was minutes after opening the site, not months, but there were many years when it wasn't 'for me' either. 
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: moshe on November 24, 2012, 07:14:40 PM
Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

Eventually we will find people that believe in the most unexpected places, and people incredible stubborn on the places where we would supposedly expect believers.

(somewhere in the holy book, there is prove for that, I am sure)
 
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: levycarneiro on November 27, 2012, 01:12:42 AM
Besides my wife of course, for which I'm very glad that she believes the "crazy things" I discuss with her!

God bless
Levy

My friend,   You are so lucky already.

Eventually we will find people that believe in the most unexpected places, and people incredible stubborn on the places where we would supposedly expect believers.

(somewhere in the holy book, there is prove for that, I am sure there is)

I am indeed, thanks brother. We have seen that some of the people to which we comment on these topics and don't run away immediately, are the ones we never expected to see a spark of interest. Praying to see more than a spark!

God bless!
Levy
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: thewatchman on December 22, 2012, 03:58:41 AM
Good points Kat.
We know the scriptures point to this current version of creation that we dwell in was created By and through Jesus Christ, but who knows how many creations there have been before this one. Especially if it is in God's nature to create. I certainly aren't prepared to limit God by my own imaginations or speculations.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 03, 2013, 11:28:18 AM
Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: John from Kentucky on January 03, 2013, 03:50:32 PM
Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.


Hello friend,

This is a very, very controversial topic on the Forum, and we would not be allowed to discuss this topic here.

Ray brought it to my attention about a year before he died.  Read his last emails during the year before his death.

Understand truly what an autobiography is.  There is a classic piece of American literature called The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  Did Franklin write about John Adams or Thomas Jefferson?  Or, did he write about------himself.

Jesus is the Word of God.  Did God write about another?  Or, did He write about------Himself.

Paul and John understood, but Paul wrote that only a few understood.  This understanding is not for the young.  It will take you where only a few have gone before.  I study many things, but I keep coming back to this topic in awe and amazement.

May God's Spirit guide your studies if you are meant to understand this at this time.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 04, 2013, 11:00:42 AM
Much of my time and writing is taken up on other Christian web-sites expounding truths that I have learned from this web-site,  Ray and the "B-T" administrators.  I then, direct them to this site/home page.

In doing so, I was teaching about the fact that Jesus is the "only begotten" created "first fruit" of God and that God doesn't create but through Jesus, who carries out His Father's will.       

A question was asked of me that I need your help in answering/directing me to the answer: 
Question: As Jesus created everything via the direction of His Father, and God the Father created nothing of/by Himself.
How did God the Father create/birth Jesus?  Is it that God COULD create things but CHOOSES NOT TO but rather gives honor to Jesus by instructing Him to created it and get praised for it; or God, "Who can do anything", but being a SPIRIT can't self-create Jesus.  Who helped Him?  (sounds silly as no one else was around (?). 

I know Ray addressed this somewhere but I can't find it.

Jesus explained it in John 10:30 when He said, "I and the Father are one."  Very few believe Jesus.

Ray mentioned it in his article about his Creed, where he stated Jesus is God's autobiography.  But that requires some thinking with the help of God's Spirit.  Those who you converse with on the internet will not "get" it.  Don't throw your pearls before those who are not capable of understanding.

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum. I read Ray's Creed and for the life of me, I can't stop thinking about it. I think I understand what Ray wrote. Can someone here go into more detail? Thank you in advance and God bless.


Hello friend,

This is a very, very controversial topic on the Forum, and we would not be allowed to discuss this topic here.

Ray brought it to my attention about a year before he died.  Read his last emails during the year before his death.

Understand truly what an autobiography is.  There is a classic piece of American literature called The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin.  Did Franklin write about John Adams or Thomas Jefferson?  Or, did he write about------himself.

Jesus is the Word of God.  Did God write about another?  Or, did He write about------Himself.

Paul and John understood, but Paul wrote that only a few understood.  This understanding is not for the young.  It will take you where only a few have gone before.  I study many things, but I keep coming back to this topic in awe and amazement.

May God's Spirit guide your studies if you are meant to understand this at this time.

Thanks for your reply John. I didn't know it is controversial. I venture to say then that if a poll were taken of all members of this forum as to what this creed means, we'd get varied answers. I haven't read the autobiography that you mentioned.

The reason I now believe as I do is because God led me to Ray's website. Certainly, the belief in Hell is a controversial one too. I used to subscribe to it, first as a catholic and then as an evangelical. I used to subscribe to the Trinity too (very controversial!). What I am trying to say is that Ray explained things with scripture, not just leave things for people to figure out. His creed is the only thing that I know of that I think he left as a riddle.

But I kinda have an idea of what Ray was hinting at. I just wanted to pursue this point with somebody (if preferred, in private messages), as I pursued others that Ray posted about and backed up with scripture. I don't want to cause any controversy at all. I just want to know more of God. If this creed has gotten in my head is for a good reason.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Gina on January 04, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
Hey Theophilus,

Welcome.

That creed is difficult to understand because it's difficult to believe.   I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so here's my two cents:


I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and

What's the definition of biography:  An account of someone's life written by someone else.

Best I can figure, this simply means God inspired people to write the old or the new testament scriptures.  God didn't come down himself and  write them.  I'm not sure who chiseled the ten commandments on stone tablets, or the writing on the wall, though.  I'm sure someone did it; I just don't know who actually did the chiseling/writing.

I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography

What's the definition of autobiography:   An account of a person's life written by that person.

Jesus Christ didn't personally write the scriptures.  So what does that mean? He was given authority to tell the whole world what God the Father is all about.  He did that in the life that he personally lived here on earth 2000 years ago, and continues to, as He does the works of the Father through the hearts of all believers.

Ray said, you won't understand anything until you begin to obey God.  Just obey Him, follow Him, and it will become abundantly clear what Ray means.

I hope that helps.

Gina
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: mharrell08 on January 04, 2013, 03:08:04 PM
What exactly is confusing Theophilus? Also what exactly is controversial about this study?
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: John from Kentucky on January 04, 2013, 09:56:26 PM
What exactly is confusing Theophilus? Also what exactly is controversial about this study?


Some of us believe that Ray is saying the Father and Jesus are One.  Jesus is God's autobiography because God is writing about Himself.  Jesus is the Word of God and through Jesus, the Father is expressing Himself to mankind and the entire universe, both spiritual and material.


Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."  John 10:30

As Ray brought out in an email:  "yet for us there is one God: the Father...and...Jesus Christ...  1 Cor 8:6

But not everyone knows this...  1 Cor 8:7

Ray himself admitted in his April 2, 2011 email that his paper on the trinity and the nature of God did not fully explain all the scriptures concerning the nature of God.

There are scriptures after scriptures after scriptures that show there is only one God.

However, I won't take the time to list them because this post will have the life expectancy of a mouse dropped in a room full of cats.   ;D ;D

You and I both know this is a controversial topic and will not be allowed to go much further.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: mharrell08 on January 04, 2013, 10:58:30 PM
What exactly is confusing Theophilus? Also what exactly is controversial about this study?


Some of us believe that Ray is saying the Father and Jesus are One.  Jesus is God's autobiography because God is writing about Himself.  Jesus is the Word of God and through Jesus, the Father is expressing Himself to mankind and the entire universe, both spiritual and material.


Here's an excerpt from the last bible study that Ray did. He talked about the word God as more of a title or surname than a proper name:

Excerpt from 'Is Jesus God?' March 2011 bible study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html):

How do we know all these references are not speaking about God the Father though? How do we know that? Because Jesus Christ said, nobody had ever seen or heard Him. So either that statement is true or it’s not.

Now I know some theologians argue that where He said that, there was other ways, He was just talking… no, we just blew that out of the sky. It isn’t that this is just said in one place, this is mentioned at numerous times.

I’m not suggesting that there are two Gods, I’m saying that the one God said, “let Us,” that's all that I am saying. I’m not saying that there is more than one God. We have all kinds of examples of how that is possible.

I think we should do away or should have done away… well it’s pretty hard to do it now... but we should have never got in the habit of translating in English Yahweh and Elohim and Adonia, we should have never translated it God. God is a pagan heathen title. Why should we call the God of creation after some pagan title? Why should we? After all we know He’s not a pagan god, yet we’re strapped with the idea that the word Elohim is translated the true God and the god of the pagans. God of creation that was Elohim and Mohoc of the Canaanites that was elohim too.

I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What’s wrong with that? To me that’s what God is. Takes care of the ‘one,’ family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.

Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that’s a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What’s wrong with that?

To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation. 

We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.

What I really liked about Ray's comments is they eliminate the confusion about one or plural for the word God. When I take this teaching into account with the creed listed, it does not seem to be confusion but rather harmonious.


Marques

P.S. Just noticed that Ray doesn't even have the word 'Father' in his creed.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: John from Kentucky on January 05, 2013, 01:54:20 AM
What exactly is confusing Theophilus? Also what exactly is controversial about this study?


Some of us believe that Ray is saying the Father and Jesus are One.  Jesus is God's autobiography because God is writing about Himself.  Jesus is the Word of God and through Jesus, the Father is expressing Himself to mankind and the entire universe, both spiritual and material.


Here's an excerpt from the last bible study that Ray did. He talked about the word God as more of a title or surname than a proper name:

Excerpt from 'Is Jesus God?' March 2011 bible study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.0.html):

How do we know all these references are not speaking about God the Father though? How do we know that? Because Jesus Christ said, nobody had ever seen or heard Him. So either that statement is true or it’s not.

Now I know some theologians argue that where He said that, there was other ways, He was just talking… no, we just blew that out of the sky. It isn’t that this is just said in one place, this is mentioned at numerous times.

I’m not suggesting that there are two Gods, I’m saying that the one God said, “let Us,” that's all that I am saying. I’m not saying that there is more than one God. We have all kinds of examples of how that is possible.

I think we should do away or should have done away… well it’s pretty hard to do it now... but we should have never got in the habit of translating in English Yahweh and Elohim and Adonia, we should have never translated it God. God is a pagan heathen title. Why should we call the God of creation after some pagan title? Why should we? After all we know He’s not a pagan god, yet we’re strapped with the idea that the word Elohim is translated the true God and the god of the pagans. God of creation that was Elohim and Mohoc of the Canaanites that was elohim too.

I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What’s wrong with that? To me that’s what God is. Takes care of the ‘one,’ family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.

Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that’s a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What’s wrong with that?

To me the pagan title god or in Germany gott, it doesn’t do justice to the God of creation. 

We are familiar with lots of words anyway that are used with a singular pronouns and so on, but consist of multiple units. We speak of the United States of America, United States, plural. One nation under God or it used to be one nation, I don’t know what it is now. One nation, united, states plural. One nation, okay. This isn’t rocket science, it’s not hard to understand.

What I really liked about Ray's comments is they eliminate the confusion about one or plural for the word God. When I take this teaching into account with the creed listed, it does not seem to be confusion but rather harmonious.


Marques

P.S. Just noticed that Ray doesn't even have the word 'Father' in his creed.

Hi Marques,

It was after the March 2011 bible study that I noticed a change in Ray's thoughts.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12934.0.html  Specifically this April 2, 2011 message from Ray.  Check out the bottom half of the message.  Third paragraph from the bottom.  Ray states that his trinity paper didn't harmonize all the scriptures regarding God.  Note that Ray told Dennis in the last paragraph that this topic may be the most amazing thing in all the scriptures.

There was an email to Kat.  Then an email to another member.  Then a few more emails.  Then he wrote his creed.

I wasn't looking for a change in what I thought about God's nature.  But I couldn't disregard those emails from Ray over about the last year of his life.  Unfortunately, Ray wasn't able to put his thoughts together on this Enigma of God matter before his death.

When I was a child and teenager, I thought there were three God's, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, from my Catholic school teachings.  The Father looked like an old man with white hair and a beard.  The Son was a young man with dark hair and a beard.  The Holy Spirit looked like a dove.  We children prayed to all three as separate and equal God's.  The Catholic priests told us that was wrong, that God was One.  But we couldn't understand three being one.

When I joined the Worldwide Church of God and up to a year before Ray's death, I believed there were two Gods: God the Father and God the Son, Jesus.  I had learned that the Spirit was not a separate sentient being, but rather the power and nature of God.

Now, I believe that there is One God. 

Now that I have studied the scriptures, I cannot believe in three or two Gods.

But I know it is hard for people to change their ideas on God.  And truly, I have no desire to debate the matter.  Only God can reveal Himself to those He wants to, when He wants to.

John
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Gina on January 05, 2013, 04:06:26 AM
Marques,

What is JFK trying to say?  For the life of me, I can't figure it out.   Is he trying to make you look like an idiot?  Because it's not working.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: onelovedread on January 05, 2013, 10:37:52 AM
Here we go again.
A timely reminder:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,14757.msg130521.html#msg130521

We all have our individual, pet views, but ultimatelythe truth will be revealed.
Blessings
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 05, 2013, 02:32:18 PM
Hey Theophilus,

Welcome.

That creed is difficult to understand because it's difficult to believe.   I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so here's my two cents:


I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and

What's the definition of biography:  An account of someone's life written by someone else.

Best I can figure, this simply means God inspired people to write the old or the new testament scriptures.  God didn't come down himself and  write them.  I'm not sure who chiseled the ten commandments on stone tablets, or the writing on the wall, though.  I'm sure someone did it; I just don't know who actually did the chiseling/writing.

I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography

What's the definition of autobiography:   An account of a person's life written by that person.

Jesus Christ didn't personally write the scriptures.  So what does that mean? He was given authority to tell the whole world what God the Father is all about.  He did that in the life that he personally lived here on earth 2000 years ago, and continues to, as He does the works of the Father through the hearts of all believers.

Ray said, you won't understand anything until you begin to obey God.  Just obey Him, follow Him, and it will become abundantly clear what Ray means.

I hope that helps.

Gina

Thank you for your input Gina. Something to think about indeed.

I've run into several bible verses that lead me to believe that:

1. Elohim is a divine family
2. We are their offspring
3. Jesus is the firstborn
4. Jesus is our elder brother and isn't ashamed to call us brothers
5. Jesus and us have the same father
6. We are being shaped in the image of Christ
7. We were created in God (Elohim)'s image: male and female

One such passage is Hebrews 2:8b-12

In subjecting everything to him, he left nothing unsubjected to him. However, at present, we don’t see everything subjected to him — at least, not yet. 9 But we do see Yeshua — who indeed was made for a little while lower than the angels — now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by God’s grace he might taste death for all humanity. 10 For in bringing many sons to glory, it was only fitting that God, the Creator and Preserver of everything, should bring the Initiator of their deliverance to the goal through sufferings. 11 For both Yeshua, who sets people apart for God, and the ones being set apart have a common origin — this is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers 12 when he says,

“I will proclaim your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

Since my past conviction was trinitarian, I had my reservations when reading these passages when I was much younger. But the verses stuck with me. I might be wrong, but this is what I seem to get from my reading. You might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but at least you are in the drawer! I'm not even in the kitchen! I'm in the trash can. Not sharp at all--in fact, slow.

Thank you all and God bless you always.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Gina on January 07, 2013, 12:07:42 AM
ha, Well, I know for a fact internet connections can't be gotten in a trash can.  Maybe you're in the trash can in the kitchen?  hehe  Just kidding. ;D 

I wouldn't want to puff you up but from the looks of things, you're observations are sound and you asked some very good questions.  At least you're being honest.  That's good enough for me.   
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 07, 2013, 01:15:20 AM
Thank you for your advice. But the more we learn about our Father and his plans, the more we realize that we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. I don't believe we will fully apprehend God in this lifetime.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Gina on January 07, 2013, 03:53:57 AM
There's absolutely no way to completely comprehend a being Who has been around since time immemorial in the span of a short lifetime.  And if you say you haven't begun to scratch the surface, then you probably haven't.

And with that, I'm out.   All the best to you, Theo. :)
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 07, 2013, 07:47:22 AM
There's absolutely no way to completely comprehend a being Who has been around since time immemorial in the span of a short lifetime.  And if you say you haven't begun to scratch the surface, then you probably haven't.

And with that, I'm out.   All the best to you, Theo. :)

Sorry I included you. I should have spoken for myself. My bad. All the best to you too.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on January 07, 2013, 03:50:11 PM
I also had 'problems' with this idea, theophilus.  But in my case, they came about before the Nashville conference in 2008.  Since I could no longer see 'creation' itself as an easy and instantaneous event but a full on demostration of the power and 'Godliness' of Jesus it was easier to accept the 'creation' of the Son.  The underlying message of Scripture is that God is creating mankind in His Image.  That's the Parable of scripture. 

Ray also taught that it is axiomatic that in order for there to be a 'Father', there first has to be a Son.  So to my mind, when the Creation of the family of God began, it began with a Son.  The family "business" is Creation.  And it is the First Born who marshalls the resources provided by the Father to do this 'family business' and be the Creator and Sustainer of All things Seen. 

It could be that when Jesus said He came to declare the Father, He was declaring the Family.  If a woman gives birth to her first child, something other than a new unique individual happens (though that does).  A new 'creation' happens--the creation of a family.  It also changes the 'name' of the woman to 'mother'.  Of course, God does things in a big way, leaving nothing undone.

Where does that leave us--especially those who believe?  I think somewhere still in the birth canal, the sure promise of Sonships, but not yet completely delivered.  Still in 'travail'.  Adopted in the womb. 

Anyways, there isn't a 'relationship' mentioned in Scripture that completely explains this 'relationship' of The Lord Jesus to His creation.  He is Father, Elder brother, Husband, Ruler and Lover.  And He is also Potter to our clay.  It's good to embrace all of these, and then some, if we want to get a taste of 'family life'.         
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 08, 2013, 02:03:05 PM
Hello Dave, I understand what you're saying. I would add that for there to be a Son, there has to be a Father AND a Mother. Is there any scripture that references this 'mother'? Meditating on the scriptures, I've wondered if the Spirit of God might be the one playing the mother role.

In Genesis 1:1, we read that after God created the heavens and the earth, the Spirit of God hovered over the surface of the waters. Why was God's spirit "hovering" over the surface of the waters? Was it to create the right conditions for the first forms of life to develop in the waters? Evolution explains that it was in the oceans that the first forms of life emerged.

It's only at this point of the narrative that God's spirit is said to be involved in the creation. The spirit HOVERED over the surface of the waters. Young's Literal Translation of the Bible states that " the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,"

Notice the verb 'fluttering'. This fluttering had to be significant and had to have an effect on the water. It's as if this was one step of many in the preparation of our planet for it to sustain life.

Genesis 1:1-2 (YLT):  In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

What do you think? Blessings. Have a wonderful day.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: indianabob on January 08, 2013, 02:21:34 PM
Hi Theo...

I have to disagree on principle with your statement below: "and a Mother"
God is NOT said to have begat Adam and Eve. God "created" Adam and Eve without any other "personage" being involved. Also it may be incorrect to view God as a person in the sense that we usually use that word. God is "spirit" and any anthropomorphic description is to help us relate to the lesson being given rather than to demonstrate a fact about God.
God speaks, has a thought etc. and the thing spoken begins to exist.

Kindly offered, Indiana bob

"Hello Dave, I understand what you're saying. I would add that for there to be a Son, there has to be a Father AND a Mother. Is there any scripture that references this 'mother'? Meditating on the scriptures, I've wondered if the Spirit of God might be the one playing the mother role."
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Kat on January 08, 2013, 04:43:23 PM

Hi theophilus,

If you haven't gotten to the 2008 conference you might find it very interesting, as it deals a lot with the creation. Here is a excerpt from it.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.msg80843.html#msg80843 -------

When in the Big Bang, according to scientists there was for so long this explosion spread out, but it was a considerable time before there was light. Because it was so dense… I mean you pack one hundred billion galaxies with one hundred billion stars into a grapefruit - mustard seed. It was in a since an exploding black hole. There was no light. Scientists will say there was no light… light could not escape and there were no heavy metals. There was no iron or tin or led or gold or silver, it was the hydrogen atom. So not only do you condense the whole universe down to the size of a grapefruit or a mustard seed, you condense the whole universe down to hydrogen. This is mind boggling.

But scientists will tell you not only was everything that exists in the universe, in that exploding central point, not only was it all in there, it was infinitesimally timed to the trillionth of a mega second. It had to be perfectly timed. The timing had to be flawless beyond imagination or it wouldn’t have worked. We wouldn’t have what we have today.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form (or more like formless, not that it didn’t have any form at all, it was formless) and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Now I’m not completely sold on the idea yet, that this is totally speaking about water covering the earth, although it certainly did. But I think it has a larger meaning. Remember that old song, Bridge Over Troubled Waters? In a sense I think that is what this is talking about. This is the beginning of the creation and its troubled waters. You get the idea that something is not right here.

Some will say, ‘it should read and the earth became without form and void.’ Well, actually yes it did in a sense ‘became,’ but not at this point.  Again, the Hebrew here is pluperfect in English. It would more accurately be translated, “and the earth,” and is correct, the word ‘and’ is in there. “And the earth” is one word in Hebrew, it’s erets. There is the word earth and then a sign for ‘and,’ and a sign for ‘the.’ So that’s all in there. It isn’t just the word there, only earth. No, it’s “and the earth.” It’s in there, and the earth was…

Now the only way you can translate that “was,” is if you translated and the earth was - already. It was already void (and vacant) and darkness was upon the face of the earth. But a better translation would be, “and the earth had existed.” Pluperfect English, past tense, had existed. The earth was already this way or had existed in this condition.

Notice what God says next.

Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light:

Let there be light. What do scientists tell us happened after the big bang? It took awhile before there was light. In the beginning He had created the heavens and the earth, but there was no light. Three verses later He tells us in the third verse “let there be light,“ and it should read, “and there became light.”

So you see how this idea of a big bang is not that stupid and atheistic and evolutionary nonsense and all of that. Millions of scientists work with the laws of physics and quantum math and all of these things, cosmology and astronomy. All of their knowledge of all of the laws of physics fit into the model that the heavens and the earth had a beginning from a central point that exploded out very rapidly. It’s the only thing that fits, nothing else fits. There is no other theory that fits except this thing that they’ve come up with, the Big Bang. You could call it the big spreading out and it would sound more scriptural. The fact of the matter is, it is scriptural.  Christ calls it the spreading out, scientists call it the Big Bang, which is just another term for spreading out rapidly and powerfully from a central beginning.
------------------------------------------------------

Here are the links to the audios and transcripts.
2008 Nashville Conference audios
Saturday morning part #1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession1.mp3
Saturday morning part #2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession2.mp3
Saturday morning part #3: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession3.mp3
Saturday morning part #4: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession4.mp3
Saturday morning part #5: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession5.mp3
Saturday morning part #6: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession6.mp3
Saturday afternoon part #7: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession7.mp3
Sunday morning part #8A: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8A.mp3
Sunday morning part #8B: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8B.mp3
Sunday morning part #9: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession9.mp3
Sunday morning part #10: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession10.mp3

Transcripts
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 09, 2013, 07:42:29 AM
Hi Theo...

I have to disagree on principle with your statement below: "and a Mother"
God is NOT said to have begat Adam and Eve. God "created" Adam and Eve without any other "personage" being involved. Also it may be incorrect to view God as a person in the sense that we usually use that word. God is "spirit" and any anthropomorphic description is to help us relate to the lesson being given rather than to demonstrate a fact about God.
God speaks, has a thought etc. and the thing spoken begins to exist.

Kindly offered, Indiana bob

"Hello Dave, I understand what you're saying. I would add that for there to be a Son, there has to be a Father AND a Mother. Is there any scripture that references this 'mother'? Meditating on the scriptures, I've wondered if the Spirit of God might be the one playing the mother role."

Hello Indiana bob, thank you for your thoughts. Like I said, I've "wondered" about this. Since

26 And God saith, `LET US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness,'
27 And God prepareth the man in HIS image; in the image of God He prepared him, A MALE AND A FEMALE HE PREPARED THEM. (Young's Literal Translation)


[In the image of God] He prepared them
[A male AND a female] He prepared them.

Image of God/likeness == male and female

Image of God/likeness appears to equate to male and female.

And I'm not thinking about God as being a person. I'm just taking his words about making us in his image or likeness. Nothing else is mentioned about this image. Only the mention of male and female.

About the begetting part, we can now make babies without begetting; without the intervention of a male and a female. I'm sure God can too. After all, He said LET US MAKE, not LET US BEGET.

Let me add that I am not emphatically stating that this is a biblical teaching. I'm just saying that these verses appear to allude to this possibility. And I do it with reverence, so help me God.

Kindly accepted.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: theophilus on January 09, 2013, 08:00:24 AM

Hi theophilus,

..........

Some will say, ‘it should read and the earth became without form and void.’ Well, actually yes it did in a sense ‘became,’ but not at this point.  Again, the Hebrew here is pluperfect in English. It would more accurately be translated, “and the earth,” and is correct, the word ‘and’ is in there. “And the earth” is one word in Hebrew, it’s erets. There is the word earth and then a sign for ‘and,’ and a sign for ‘the.’ So that’s all in there. It isn’t just the word there, only earth. No, it’s “and the earth.” It’s in there, and the earth was…

Now the only way you can translate that “was,” is if you translated and the earth was - already. It was already void (and vacant) and darkness was upon the face of the earth. But a better translation would be, “and the earth had existed.” Pluperfect English, past tense, had existed. The earth was already this way or had existed in this condition.
If you haven't gotten to the 2008 conference you might find it very interesting, as it deals a lot with the creation. Here is a excerpt from it.


........................

mercy, peace and love
Kat



And this is how it reads in Young's Literal Translation:

Genesis 1:1-2 (YLT):  In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --

2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness [is] on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

I still subscribe to the Big Bang theory. I'm currently reading about "the divine matrix". It has to do with quantum mechanics. Scientists have discovered A FIELD. Space is not empty after all. There is an invisible medium through which waves travel. This field permeates EVERYTHING. Scientists are describing this field as a field of infinite possibilities and of pure intelligence. Furthermore, this discovery shows that WE ARE ALL CONNECTED, even things.

Check it out on youtube. There are several videos on this topic. Thank you for the links. I will check them out. Have a good day.
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Joel on January 09, 2013, 11:14:07 PM
Genesis 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Some teach that God is talking to the angels when he made this statement. any comments on that belief?

Joel
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Ian 155 on January 24, 2013, 05:41:30 AM
You all lost me

To me......, I have in me, the word that became flesh I am living the bible every day this is personal, many OT happenings have happened to me and I relate, this word is in me I am it, I am Paul and Peter and James and Mary and at a stage Jesus is revealed to us by the father,[that would be once we are given understanding of the sum of Gods word or we have walked the path of salvation in this life or in the Resurrection] some even in the twinkling of and eye,  and all the while God the Father is helping or pushing or directing us to this knowledge.

The whole parable we call the bible is me that is how I am experiencing the born again realization my first fathers sinned this carried down from generation to generation and one day I was born and God had a different plan for me and certain few [the disciples]and God saw fit to strip away the ways I was taught by my forefathers, and schools and universities and all that puffed me up or has indoctrinated me.


or am I the biggest dumbest unbeliever under the sun

Ian
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: gregorydc on January 24, 2013, 08:11:39 AM
Ian, me too, exactly.
Greg
Title: Re: Jesus--God's first creation--HOW/WHO?
Post by: Duane on March 16, 2013, 06:30:13 PM
I have written for and am involved in many Christian web-sites and have learned over the years which "battles to choose".  I have directed countless people to Ray's site and this forum.  I represent the things Ray and all of you have taught me on these sites.  If someone didn't "stick their neck out" and introduce me to Ray (and many of the fine administrators here HADN'T spent hours realigning my Biblical thinking) I would still be  "Hell believing fundamentalist" of the first degree and many still have a few friends and family left!

I am by nature a PONTIFICATOR and had to direct my "facebook preaching" away from the FORUM as it isn't allowed.  My mission in life is to bring as many "Bible curious people" as there are into being "B-T" members.
I fully concur with the teachings and beliefs of Ray and this web-site.  It pleases me to see people use the "B-T" or "B-T'er" abbreviation because several years ago, I was I who coined the term!  My one "claim to fame" in life!

God bless you all and may we all continue in His service!