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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: fstamp on July 10, 2008, 12:51:30 AM
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I'm new to the forum, and this is my first posting. I recently listened on-line to a sermon titled "Is There Really A Hell" given by our Pastor. My wife and I have been attending this non-denominational church since 2006. This is the first time I've heard him teach on the subject of Hell. Parts of his sermon reminded me of the sermon "The Seven Wonders Of Hell" given by John Hagee. My Pastor stated, in substance, that to deny Hell is to deny Jesus. And if we deny Jesus we deny Salvation. He also stated that no one can deny Hell without denying the bible, that if there is no Hell there is no Heaven, that no one is sent to Hell they go there by choice. He stated it's "Fair" and that "Justice demands Hell."
My wife wants to continue going to our church, but I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure I can continue going as I don't believe in his teaching. I also didn't agree with his teaching on the subject of Tithing. It's causing me emotional stress as we have known him and his wife for two years.
Please help guide me in the right direction.
Thanks, Fstamp...
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Hi Fstamp,
Welcome to the forum :)
I take it that you have read some of the articles at Bible_Truths.com and now you are seeing that there are false teaching in the church.
In the sermon you heard from your pastor you just got more of their false rhetoric. Until you have studied the articles on Bible-truths and have proven to yourself from the Scripture how evil this doctrine of hell is, you certainly will not be able to help your wife understand.
I think at this point you need to determine for yourself what the Bible really says. Ray goes into great detail to show beyond any doubt what the 'original' Scripture teach. You owe it to yourself to read through those articles and see the truth of the Scriptures. Then you will not be so easily swayed by all these false teachings.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
v. 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Once you've done what Kat suggested...and assuming you ultimately believe that the 'hell' preached in most churches does NOT exist (instead, something more wonderful and profound exists)...then you are left to decide whether you want to spend an hour or more a week under the influence of somebody who would teach it.
It doesn't surpise me at all that your pastor 'sounds like' Hagee. I speak from some experience in telling you that most pastors at least some of the time get their sermons from other preachers rather than from the scripture--no matter what they preach or believe.
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fstamp: read Rays lake of fire series on the home page of Bible-truth. These readings will amaze you and open your eyes like never before. You will see the truth. Myself, after 20 yrs. of searching I finally know the truth and it is terrific! This is a great site and the people here are wonderful. They will help you anyway they can, you'll see. Most of us have been through the same stuff you have. Going to a certain church that teaches man made christian doctrine. For yrs and yrs not knowing the truth. Welcome to the truth, enjoy.
Darren
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I'm new to the forum, and this is my first posting. I recently listened on-line to a sermon titled "Is There Really A Hell" given by our Pastor. My wife and I have been attending this non-denominational church since 2006. This is the first time I've heard him teach on the subject of Hell. Parts of his sermon reminded me of the sermon "The Seven Wonders Of Hell" given by John Hagee. My Pastor stated, in substance, that to deny Hell is to deny Jesus. And if we deny Jesus we deny Salvation. He also stated that no one can deny Hell without denying the bible, that if there is no Hell there is no Heaven, that no one is sent to Hell they go there by choice. He stated it's "Fair" and that "Justice demands Hell."
My wife wants to continue going to our church, but I have mixed feelings about it. I'm not sure I can continue going as I don't believe in his teaching. I also didn't agree with his teaching on the subject of Tithing. It's causing me emotional stress as we have known him and his wife for two years.
Please help guide me in the right direction.
Thanks, Fstamp...
Hello Fstamp & Welcome to the forum,
What your Pastor seems to be using is " Circular Reasoning "(maybe I'm incorrect), but when he says Denying Hell equals Denying Jesus equals Denying Salvation. Firstly the Greek Word Hades mistranslated Hell is equivalent to the Hebrew word Sheol both meaning imperceptable, the unseen place where dead people are really dead likened to a deep sleep, no conscious thought, awaiting a Resurrection. Where was Lazarus when he died, before Jesus Resurrected him, Jesus said that Lazarus has died, he's asleep; John. 11:5-26. Where was Lazarus during that interim period while dead and not yet Resurrected by Jesus, he was in that tomb, dead, without consciousness, asleep. Jesus loved Lazarus and he was his friend; If Lazarus was conscious somewhere before Jesus resurrected him, he might have been highly upset about being raised back to this wicked world.
Read Rays Articles about Sheol, Hades, Gehenna and The Lake of Fire series, I'm sure he will explain things much better than me. Your Pastor like most people looks at things as having to all transpire in one lifetime: Getting Saved, Repentance, Forgiveness, he might believe that all the correction a person requires to get saved must take place in an individuals Lifetime(70-80 yrs if were lucky). One last point about the word Hell, most translations of the Bible render three Greek words: Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus as Hell or Hell-fire, sometimes they put Gehenna in the footnotes below in the Twelve places of the New Testament where Gehenna should be in the main text, instead of Hell-fire. In Old Testament times Gehenna was equivalent to the Valley of the son of Hinnon, a garbage dump where the carcasses of dead animals, criminals who they thought were not worthy of a decent burial and the trash of the City, nothing thrown in that garbage dump was alive when brought their for disposal, the fires of Gehenna do not represent literal fire, it's spiritual fire. I will stop at this point and let Ray's writings fully explain what that spiritual fire does for our benefit, not our detriment.
Anyway, glad you have joined us and hope you enjoy the fellowship and instruction from Ray in learning God's Truth's, because Ray tells it like it is, no watering down the Scriptures, he digs deep to be sure.
Samson.
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Welcome Fstamp and join the club---THE BEEN THERE DONE THAT CLUB. :D
I'm sorry, I know its not a laughing matter where you sit. After a few years on the forum you realize we all have had to make that choice. For some it is easy, for others well, not so much.
All good advice from the posters. Just bulk up on the truth that is here that Ray is teaching, stay close to us(the forum) and eventually you will know what and when to do whatever you do ;)
Go back thru the introduction threads for a coupleof years and you will see you are not alone!!
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No. A couple words were arbitrarily changed to "Hell" (traditionally, lower-case) in the Middle Ages, when the Bible was first being translated into English. These words are:
1. Sheol
2. Gehenna
3. Hades
4. Tartarus
The concept of evil men going to a place of torment after death first appeared in Jewish apocryphal writings of 3 to 1 B.C. These writings came from the thoughts of the Babylonian religions which the Jews brought back with them from Babylon. It was these books which spoke of eternal separation of good and evil and equating it to man's ultimate fate. Many Jews mixed these teachings with Judaism which brought about great problems. These writings, found their way into the Greek Septuagint (a Bible translation.) The Septuagint was used by the early Church. From there these writings got into the Latin Vulgate. Early English translations relied heavily on the Latin Vulgate. Those that used the Greek, also relied heavily upon the Septuagint. The early English translations were either translated from the Latin with the Apocrypha, or the Septuagint, which also contained the Apocrypha. Each translation also relied heavily on other translations. Tyndale, for example, borrowed greatly from Martin Luther. The King James directly copied much from previous translations that came directly from the Latin Vulgate. ( http://www.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
Careful poster the rules state Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching.
Craig :)
Read this, too: http://pages.citebite.com/e5m9q4o1gdvx
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I just watched an Egyptian special on the History Channel. They gave lots of time to the similarities between what Egypt believed and Christians- they had the trinity first, a strong pure mother figure, etc.
Why, most pastors would NOT believe that for one bit!
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Thank you all for your kind words, and suggestions. I look forward to reading all the articles on the Lake of Fire. My wife and I are still divided, but I'm sure with a little guidance, and understanding of Scripture, she too will come to know the truth. Again, I thank you all.
Fstamp...
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fstamp, I'd like to point out two things on Ray's site to you:
http://pages.citebite.com/e5m9q4o1gdvx
http://pages.citebite.com/j6n2s2a8rnyo
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Hi Fstamp
As has been suggested you need to read and study Ray's teachings on this subject and many other subjects.
You'll find that Ray teaches nothing that hasn't been in Gods word all along, its just that God has chosen to reveal his truths to Ray (not just Ray alone I hasten to add and Ray has never made any such claim), and through Ray God is revealing to people around the world.
Just about everything that Ray teaches is opposed to just about everything taught in denominational Churches, and this is because Church teaching opposes just about everything in the Scriptures.
I can identify with your frustration that your wife doesn't see what you are starting to see. I have the same situation. However, as frustrating as it seems, God is doing it for a reason, it is His predestinated plan, don't fight it.
Study and pray for understanding and God will reveal to you.
The plain and short answer to your thread question is No there is no Hell.
God bless you
David
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Hello Fstamp,
Just agreeing with what the other members have suggested.
I hope you will avail yourself of our counsel and personal experiences. We surely don't have all the answers but we are willing to struggle along with you as we learn together.
One bit of advice from a married man to a married man.
God may not call a woman in the same manner or at the same time that he calls the husband.
I would suggest that you move very slowly to educate yourself before putting your wife in the situation of having to decide who she agrees with. You may change your beliefs a little as you learn. All other people work at different paces than we each do and spouses are no different. I think you will find that called out women on the forum have had similar experiences with their spouses.
Slow and easy does it every time.
It may take a year or two for your wife to decide if you are being misled by this new understanding. At your age I'm sure that you know your wife quite well, but consider please that even close friends often become impatient to share what seems so wonderful to them personally.
One thing we have learned is to lead by example and allow the other person to follow at their own pace.
A spouse is benefited by the gradual changes and improvements that they see in their partner. So just remember as your wife sees you spending more time in study, that you take time to attend to her needs and concerns apart from your study. For example, every time my wife walks into the room where I am reading or responding to forum email, I put down my glasses and turn to her and give her my full attention, not returning to my study until she has finished her conversation and left the room. Some times I even follow her and make myself useful.
Spouses, especially women, appreciate personal attention and the knowledge that they are valued.
That is my advice.
Please write often and share your experiences.
Regards, Indiana bob
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Paul, thanks for putting on the cite bite from Ray. Awesome as usual!!!
what is a cite bite by the way.
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:)
CiteBite is a thing that lets you link to specific text in a web page. Example: http://pages.citebite.com/a6n6c3u3agqb
As you can see, it highlights the words in the webpage you choose to have highlighted, and jumps down to the highlighted text.
http://citebite.com/
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Hi fstamp
I am new to the forum as well and this is my first reply to a posting. I have also attended a "fundamental Baptist church" for 7 years, the pastor has similar views as yours and my wife and I have a very close relationship with him and his wife and many other church members
For several years I agonised, like you, about moving to another church, but so few (none??) churches preach the truth, then a final realisation came to me in a verse Rev 2:4 and the Lord's demand "not to leave your first love". It was the Pastor who lead me to the Lord and guided my early learning. Just as we are to be in the world but not of the world, be in the church but not of the church- grow through Ray's teachings -just be careful who you discuss them with.
Enjoy and God Bless
Russell
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Hi Russell,
Please don't take this wrong but I am beyond sure that Rev2:4 is not speaking of your or anyone else's Pastor.
Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
Jam 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
Jam 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
I certainly do not dispute that the Spirit used your Pastor to drag or draw you to Christ but what Revelation 2:4 is saying is that the love for Christ (first love) had been replaced in the hearts of the church members with love for man, whether it be self love or love of the church itself minus Christ, He became second fiddle (or worse).
Peace,
Joe
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Hi Russell,
Welcome to the forum :)
It was the Pastor who lead me to the Lord and guided my early learning.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
God calls us into the church where we first learn of Christ. This is so we might gain a knowledge, though it is a knowledge of darkness. But this is necassary that we may have as a contrast to the light that we gain if we are chosen. But we must come out of the darkness, once we receive the light.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Here is a couple of emails concerning 'first love.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7112.0.html -----
My "First Love" was my first desire to repent and come out of this world and follow God's way, which I then deserted to a large extent and went back into the world, and then repented and returned to my First Love.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7618.0.html ------
Many have left their initial belief and acceptance of God and Jesus and have gone back into the world with a spiritually-minded vengeance! Thankfully, God recalls some out of that condition, as He has done with you. All we who have "left our First Love" have similar feelings about how stupid, and selfish, and carnal we became. But it is good to feel guilt and shame. These emotions help to continuously keep us from committing the same sins or to the same degree. We have to "COME OUT" of Babylon, and then we need to "STAY OUT." And the staying out is often as difficult as the coming out. The more we spiritually grow and understand, the more we see our shortcomings. It is good that God does not show us all of our sins all at once--it would be so over-powering and shameful, that we would have trouble facing another day. Glad that you have seen the Light.
God be with you,
Ray
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Paul you wrote
The concept of evil men going to a place of torment after death first appeared in Jewish apocryphal writings of 3 to 1 B.C. These writings came from the thoughts of the Babylonian religions which the Jews brought back with them from Babylon. It was these books which spoke of eternal separation of good and evil and equating it to man's ultimate fate. Many Jews mixed these teachings with Judaism which brought about great problems. These writings, found their way into the Greek Septuagint (a Bible translation.) The Septuagint was used by the early Church. From there these writings got into the Latin Vulgate
You seem to be implying that the Old testament itself was contaminated by babylon pagan doctrine, and that the idea of separation of good and evil is a corrupt doctrine
then why did jesus himself say
(Mat 13:37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
(Mat 13:38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
(Mat 13:49) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Mat 25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(Mat 25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
The word of genenna hades and sheol and tartarus are the words that have been corrupted, not the teaching of separation of good and evil.....all will be saved but all wil go through judgement except the elect that goes through tribulations during their lives on earth.
beloved
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That's an excerpt from an article by Gary Amirault. I credited it, but Craig editted the link out of the post.
Notice that he's talking specifically about eternal seperation of good and evil: isn't evil eventually going to be abolished? So, I think he's right about eternal seperation of good and evil being false.
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You may want to read rays paper on the word eternal, it does not mean what it does in english. Some of Gary Amraults teachings are in error. he does cover the meaning of this word too. here is Rays study, I also think he has some audio on this same toic.
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
The wicked and righteous will be separated until........ All is in All
beloved
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Interesting. Thanks.
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
Amazing what people will make up just to prove a point. Of course, zero scriptures, just talk probably adapted from Babylon.
Berg3699 you are in way over your head here. You have no idea what you are talking about and you obviously do not belong on this forum.
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Well Berg3699 If there was a hell where our most loving and forgiven Lord will send most ever human that had ever lived or is going to live then I guess you will have lots of company. Thank The Lord we here at Bible-Truths know the truth. We have no fear of going to a fable hell that people like you made up in order to try to scare the people into believing in God. To keep the people in the churches in order to keep paying their tithes. It's people like you that give our Lord a bad name. Once again I;m being judgemental, sorry I have alot of work to do. Yet I do not consider myself a christian. I'm a work in progress ;) ;) ;)
Darren
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Berg,
I believe Ray already proved it sculpturaly. Did you read his Lake of Fire series? You might want to consider reading through all his teachings prior to disputing them here, especially without chapter and verse to back it up. Sorry but you can't prove something that doesn't exist (Hell). I will pray for your understanding of God's truth.
And I'm glad that no one will be sent there, even you.
May God Bless You, and Free You From False Teachings,
Brenda
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
Satan is the death? Eh?
I'll prove you wrong with a few spiritual matches.
For you who denies God will have all men to be saved (tim 2:3-4), what do these two verses mean to you?
1 Corinthians 12:3 "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say[confess] that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
So we can't confess Christ is Lord except if we have the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit in us. Now here is my point.
Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Phil. 2:10-11 "That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess [‘That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Rom. 10:9)] that Jesus Christ is Lord [‘Lord’ means ‘master’—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives], to the glory of God the Father"
So God is saying every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess. So does that mean that everyone will be filled with the holy spirit at some point in time?
What say you?
In Christ,
Alex
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Alex great scriptures. But Berg3699 said he can prove there's a hell. We need to stick to the subject. I agree with everything you quoted in scripture. You are very wise when it comes to scripture, I am not, therefore I need people like you to prove to this guy that he is wrong. I don't have the knowledge. I sure love to here from the people who do.
Thanks,
Darren
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Alex great scriptures. But Berg3699 said he can prove there's a hell. We need to stick to the subject. I agree with everything you quoted in scripture. You are very wise when it comes to scripture, I am not, therefore I need people like you to prove to this guy that he is wrong. I don't have the knowledge. I sure love to here from the people who do.
Thanks,
Darren
Heh, i'm no wise guy when it comes to the scriptures. Thanks though. My parents on the other hand call me a smart @ss, but somehow i don't think that has anything to do with being knowledgeable in the Word of God. I only wish it did.
With love,
Alex
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Alex, I hope you didn't take offense to me saying you had wisdom when it came to scripture. I certainly did not mean anything negative about it. As far as you being as smart @#$ well I think most of us has been called that once or twice.
Darren
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Alex, I hope you didn't take offense to me saying you had wisdom when it came to scripture. I certainly did not mean anything negative about it. As far as you being as smart @#$ well I think most of us has been called that once or twice.
Darren
haha, no offense taken dear brother =]
God bless,
Alex
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
No!!!
But I can prove the existence of hell. Just come to work with me sometime.
H A I J OOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Are we aloud to use the same joke more than once?
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Allowed, even. Still funny the second time around.
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
Wow, you proved it, well done berg...............NOT!
If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true?
NO! God created the Heavens and the Earth, no mention of hell in His creation............."Thy (Gods) will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven"......no mention of hell there.
Satan is the death
Would that be death "forever and ever"? Or are we talking just not very nice eternal life "forever and ever"?
Berg, please go read Ray's web site, all of it. It will take you some time, but you will learn a whole lot. While reading, have you Bible with you and check everything Ray has written. Log onto an interlinier Bible website and check off the hebrew and greek words and the deffinitions. It takes a lot of time and study. Most of all, pray without ceasing for God to give you sight, revelation and understanding. Sorry for my sarcasm, I couldn't resist. I'll be praying for you.
David.
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Okay let me prove hell to all. Please read Revelation 14:10 and 11 if this is not prove that all will burn in Hell then I will go there. Like all Good there is exact oppisite of Bad. If there is heaven then the oppisite is hell true? Just like Jesus is the life. Satan is the death. The hebrew of the ever and ever is described as an time indication. Please prove me different
We believe that verse, among some others, had some key words mistranslated. Read this:
http://pages.citebite.com/e5m9q4o1gdvx