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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Sorin on July 12, 2007, 10:57:42 PM
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Not that I am defending it, nor am I gay. But I want to know, why is homosexuality wrong (in your opinion/fact etc...). I mean other then The Bible/God's Word saying it's wrong, and an abomination etc...
What I mean is, can you give me a reason without referring to God, why homosexuality is wrong?
I can think of a few, but I'll let you guys answer first.
This is just an honest question, I'm not trying to either defend, nor hate homosexuals.
Any post is welcomed.
-Sorin
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It is not normal in my opinion, since I am just offering an opinion.
In my heart it is written that God does not approve.
I have a gay sister and also a gay brother in law.
I tell you gays are coming out of the closet from every direction.
It gives me the heebie jeebies it is just one of those sinful acts that bother me most.
I will let God be the judge though.
The scripture speak how it is an abomination.
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It's not as bad as murder, rape, or just about any kind of evil deed done against another. It's probably no more evil than adultry. This is only when it's between consenting adults. However, the gay culture annoys me. The gay men act and talk feminine. They have become more and more powerful, even going as far as insisting that public schools educate children about their lifestyles. I personally believe that they should stay quiet if in the millitary, for the sake of moral. The question isn't whether it is a sin but why they were caused to be this way. Nobody in their right mind would choose any of the known perverted sexual orientations. They cannot realistically be expected to control their desires. I know for a fact that many of the most artistic humans ever to live were gay men. Why, I don't know. But the fact is, is their lifestyle doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as someone who lies for personal gain or is out to dishonestly better themself at the expense of countless honest workers. Basically, I don't have a problem with what they do, as long as they commit their sins privately.
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Sorin you're crazy... lol. This can get ugly. Maybe not. Homosexuality is just like all other sexual immoralities, they just can not help it. What they lust after is not natural though. God said multiply and replenish. Homosexuality is a direct violation to this command. Homosexuality is not only wrong because it is a sin, it is also wrong because it does not promote survival of our species. If everyone were gay then we'd be an endangered species. I hope this makes sense.
God be with you,
Roy
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Murder and rape is far worse, Homosexuals at least are agreeable to the act.
I am a little homophobic though I have to admit.
I agree why in the world would anyone choose such a life, but could they choose different?
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Hey hi all,
yea i jus hav an Opinion, Yes! can dey choose differntly?? um! & 2 b very honest i no many gay pple/ relations etc.. whom r very kind hearted pple compared 2 wot cumz out of Churchez n e wayz, & most of dem Praise GOD jus az much az uS if not even more!, As U say Jacqui-lee, GOD is the Judge not uS! & isnt GOD in Control!?? :). We hav a church in New Zealand called Destiny man if n e church gets me goin its dem, Dey Preach GODS name bla bla bla, but! den dey r in 1 big congregation in da streets all in black T shirts Holding banners wit stupid fingZ like "Down with GayZ" even az bad as "Kill the GAYz" I was jus Shocked & I was finkn & dis is a church of GOD, Woteva!!!, dey were yelln out Heaps of stuff az if bein Gay was da Only! sin in dis World & 1 mus remember all sins r sins no matter hw big or small dey may seem, dey r All still sins, Well dis is my Opinion in which cums 2 mind, But! I mus remember GOD is in Control, :) Peace 2 U All, GODS BlessnZ! 2 each & every1 of uZ! in JESUS Mighty!, Amazing name Amen!!!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Okay, I guess I'm going to step in it now. This is the sin I have battled all of my life. I don't understand why it's a sin. My mind says " I would rather see two people love each other than hate each other". My heart says I should obey my God. I have been celebate for more than five years. If I told you I didn't sin in my heart every day I would be sinning again. The best response on homosexuality I have heard is from Ray. We are born that way.That doesn't excuse us. Just as some people are born to be robbers or murderers. I try to look at my sin as no different from other forms of fornication. We are all born into sin, but that isn't what God has asked of us.
I am going to offer a differing opinion about whether it is natural. It is normal. Pick up a magazine and read about the penguins and dolphins and bonobos. It is the nature of the beast.
I don't think there is much of a distinction between categories of sin. If we are fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, or if we are murderers or false witnessses. Sin is the act of coming short of the glory of God.
Some people in their lifetimes identify the way they haven't glorified God by not having been faithful to their spouse, and some by trying to choose a partner of the same sex.
When I read the story of Gods creation he made a woman to be a companion to a man. Maybe the reason homosex is a sin is because it is rejecting his choice for us, just like sleeping with women that you aren't married to is rejecting his plan too.
For what it's worth I wish I had an asbestos hat and coat now.
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hi steve, my heart goes out to you!!
the more we find our identity in Christ rather than our sexuality we become overcomers for HE overcame.
same with recovering alcoholics, drug addicts, sex addicts ETC, our identity MUST be IN CHRIST.
not in self or our "sins" i know this 100% ...... :o
God bless you
ChuckT
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Rodger, I like your take on it. I've thought the same way.
Physically, there is a lot of harm done. Bizarre things, pseudo-masochistic things, animals, etc. Just seems to be out of the norm.
God usually didn't say NO to things w/o a good reason. Usually it was for protection. Such as not eating pork and that sort of thing. Not cuz God was picky but back then it could harm you if not cooked all the way.
Anyway, all thru history, even tho it was always around, it was never looked upon as "normal", even by decadent Rome, which didn't acknowledge God/Bible. Weve all seen documents on tV where tribes w/ no touch from the outside world did not accept homosexuality.
MOST animals do NOT practice homosexuality.
Paul said it is better to marry than to burn. So serving God single is good. But marriage-one man and one woman- children seems to be the accepted way all thru history.
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Hi Gena,
I am going to offer a different perspective that perhaps you have not considered.
You wrote: "God usually didn't say NO to things w/o a good reason. Usually it was for protection. Such as not eating pork and that sort of thing. Not cuz God was picky but back then it could harm you if not cooked all the way."
While I agree with what you say, it does not and cannot mean that God did not WANT such things as homosexuality to happen. We know well now that man is not free to even direct his steps, so is one suddenly free to select their sexual preference. I would say no! :)
So why then would God instruct to guard against such deplorable practices while on the other hand is the one causing such actions? Is there a contradiction here? Or is there perhaps a greater meaning.
Well, I certainly think there is. Let me first state that you, me or anyone else here in this forum is not any better than the lowest of the low; it is that we have one thing that they do not (yet) and that is ears to hear and eyes to see.
So what should we see when we experience such in your face homosexuality innuendo that is so prevalent these days? Are we to condemn them for breaking God's law. Remember, how Christ told us (I think it was Christ) that to those of which much is given, much is expected in return. If we therefore recognize ourselves as the work of God's hands, then are "they" not also? Far be it from me to condemn them, for would I not also be condemning the Potter? Of course I would. ::)
Everything in this life, from object to opportunity is given as a lesson in humility for us. If we can do nothing more than recognize that God will one day set them straight, while showing to the best of our ability unconditional love and all the other fruits of the Spirit, then I think that is a good start. Please don't ask me where to go from there, for I accept them and I personally know more than a few. Christ died for homosexuals too and I am thinking that when he spoke to the multitudes and said the: "least of these will come first......." probably included some homosexuals too.
Oh you are really going to think I am picking on you now :D
You wrote: "But marriage-one man and one woman- children seems to be the accepted way all thru history."
Yep, and I think there is a very good reason for it...... :)
Gen 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
God does everything for a reason, and perhaps the most profound realization is that there is something to learn from all of it. Good or bad.
Thanks Gena, I hope you take this in the spirit of love in which it was written.
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Darren,
Amen 2 d@ Well sed, once again sum1 haz put it how I was tryn 2 lol! :) :D BlessnZ! brother.
muchLOVE!! Pera
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Well....I have this feeling that one day, when God is all and all...all this gender stuff is not going to matter anymore. For now, the biggest question is what is God teaching us by these so called "anomalies" in God's design?
The physical comes first, then the spiritual. Are we to behave like we have not committed spiritual homosexuality against our Lord and Savior??
I'm of the mindset that we ALL have at one time or another, and that my friends is far more important to realize and repent of.
This may be offensive to some, but we have all been spiritual homosexuals. God recently opened my mind to this and I was humbled.
I have never had a problem with gay people, had many in my life that were dear friends. I would never judge them. But I did think, deep inside, that there was something "wrong" with them, and almost felt sorry for them. (God forgive me). Like I was somehow more normal....NOT!
We must never forget that we are to live by EVERY word out of the mouth of God. And ALL these things (in the bible) have happened for OUR instruction upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Do you think that excludes you?????
Please, let's not focus on these outer physical things and get distracted from what's going on inside each of us....apply it to yourselves people... and see what God shows you. It's not going to be pretty, but it's the only way to deal with the beast and have Jesus knock him down a few more notches.
Love to all of you!
Peace,
Diana
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Thank you all for replying. I do not view homosexuality as "normal". Just because some [not all] are born that way, that dosen't make it "normal". Some people are born blind, deaf, retarded, and even conjoined to their twin (siamese); that doesn't mean it's "normal". Homosexuality is a defect, there is something wrong in one's mind when he is attracted to the same sex as opposed to the opposite sex; which is the natural order of things. I mean what is sex really, other than the fact that it feels great, it is a means of procreation.
Even the theory of evolution, survival of the fittest, and science will attest that hetereosex is vital to the survival of a species.
And what about all the many, many diseases that are due to homosexual activity?
You probably already know the homosexual community has been decimated by AIDS. But you may not know that, as another study has found: 1) 80% of syphilitic patients are homosexual; 2) about 33% of homosexuals are infected with active anorectal herpes simplex viruses; 3) chlamydia infects 15% of homosexuals; and 4) "a host of parasites, bacterial, viral, and protozoan are all rampant in the homosexual population."
Another study found that: 1) amoebiasis, a parasitic disease, afflicts around 32% of homosexuals; 2) giardiasis, also a parasitic disease, afflicts 14% of homosexuals (NO heterosexuals in the study were found to have either amoebiasis or giardiasis); 3) gonorrhea afflicts 14% of homosexuals; and 4) 11% of homosexuals had anal warts.
According to another study, anorectal sepsis, a potentially toxic bacterial infection, is four times more common in homosexual than heterosexual men. And another study found that the "prevalence of EBV type 2 among homosexual men was significantly higher than it was among heterosexual men (39% vs. 6%)."6 (EBV type 2 is the Epstein-Barr type 2 virus, which virus causes infectious mononucleosis and is associated with two types of cancer: Burkitt's lymphoma and nasopharyngeal carcinoma.)
And other studies have found abnormally high rates of hepatitis B infection, prostate cancer, colitis, enteritis, proctitis, and proctocolitis in homosexual men.
And Steve, I feel for you... I really do.
-Sorin
P.S. Rodger, great post! I agree!
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Hmmm... the thread has strayed from the original question. But I did say "any post is welcomed" therefore I can't really complain. :p
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Hi Sorin,
Sorry, I should have read your question more carefully. I do see what you are saying. Unfortunately none of the things you listed would likely be a deterrent for anyone to stop what they are doing, any more than the probability of lung cancer stops a smoker from reaching for a cigarette. Here in Canada, they put hideous pictures of what smoking can do to your health right on the front of the packet...my husband smokes so I see these disgusting pictures all the time, and I'm horrified that it's not enough to make him want to stop. He loves our family and is a responsible husband and father, but the smoking.....he just can't seem to stop and he's tried several times.
It's bizarre that we all know we are marching towards death, yet some of us insist on running there! There's not much in this world that we do towards our bodies or the planet that is really "normal" anymore. We are accelerating our demise in one way or another.
But yes, I agree with you that homosexuality is not "normal" in terms of the natural design of our bodies and what they are meant to do. And there isn't a gay person I have known in my experience that didn't ultimately admit to me that they were sad inside for being so "different"....
Peace to you,
Diana
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I used to look at things differently; it's amazing what being humbled can do for you!
I know homosexuality used to be focused on in our church....along with more "obvious" sins. Which now bothers me. The "church" in general really lasers in on it, along with abortion. (How about gossip, slander, hatred etc)
What would Jesus Do? (I'm sorry but I hate that "buzzword" saying....) but it applies here.
He didn't rail against people's sin, or hold rallies, or say we should assasinate the head of the Roman Gov't!!! He loved people, healed them, fed them, and they KNEW He cared....He came to SAVE us...
Anyway....sin is sin is sin....and yes, sexual sins are mentioned as different, but that has to do with the effect on us. God is not more "horrified" by it....
What I'm trying to say, is, whether you struggle with adultery, homosexuality, over eating (gluttony) , or anything you feel in bondage to and can't seem to stop, I FEEL for you!!! I know what it's like....
Steve, take off your asbestos hat and coat, and receive a brotherly hug from Shmeggly! I may not agree with everything you said, (just because I can't think too clearly to debate/read-T3's again for pain!) but you are loved.
On our own we can't do anything....God is the one who does it for us. I TRIED for years to quit one thing or the other, and you know, it never worked. God did not deliver me miraculously like so many peole you hear about, nor did I seem to have the power to overcome. But I believe in His time He changes people....I prayed for YEARS to change, to be different....well let me tell you, I am changing, and I am different, but it is through an incredibly PAINFUL trial that this has come about....so....
The only thing is, there is consequence for sin, and sometimes it doesn't seem like it, but it does find you. What I'm trying to say, is that I do agree with alot of what you said, but don't quit praying for God to change your life. And that you are in the same boat as all of us! No better, no worse....just loved, accepted, and important in God's eyes....and He wants what's best for you, just like I do....
Take care, and be at peace....James
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Hi Diana,
Firstly, there's no need to apologize. I did indeed say "any post is welcomed" and I meant it. I was simply stating a fact by saying that the thread has strayed. But it doesn't matter, at least we're all discussing.
About the smoking thing, I'm in the same boat as your husband. I've tried to quit many times, and I just can't do it. Kind of like a homosexual who tries to be attracted to females, and he just can't do it. Yes, I believe there are some that are born that way, but not all.
Homosexuality has become acceptable now, trendy even, and the media doesn't portray it as anything but "good" without any of the negative things that I had previously posted.
Take care,
Sorin
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Regardless of whether every homosexual is born that way or not, I can guarantee that no one chooses this perversion. I applaud Steve for staying celibate for five years. While this doesn't cancel out the sin of lust, it is a clear sign that God is working with him. I've known homosexuals who attend church and state that it's OK if you're in love with your partner. Ummmm, no, not really. But regardless, there are much worse ways to sin. Steve, you're not a necrophiliac, a pedophile, (what are those people who like the animals? You know, the bestiality people) or any number of philos that are more condemnable than being homosexual. Just leave it in God's hands and try to live according to the spirit. I'm sure Christ cured some homosexuals during his ministry.
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I guess one of the problems that people have with homosexuality is the way society has become so accepting of it. But it's no different from any other sin, right? At least that's what I get from Romans 1:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
Rom 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them.
If you look at the long list of sins above, homosexuality is no worse than being disobedient to your parents.
Being born blind may not be normal, but blind people are not persecuted the way homosexuals are. And no, being blind isn't a sin. But murderers aren't persecuted the way homosexuals are either. In fact, many people feel justified in murdering homosexuals for THEIR perversion! Now explain that to me, how a murderer's perversion is more accepting than a homosexual's? ???
Just some thoughts that came to me.
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"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope..."
...So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but what is unseen.
In His Love,
-jER
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I have no problem being friendly to homosexuals, I do not think of them less than others. But as Sorin said there are many dreadful physically consequences for that sin.
1Co 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
Nobody gets away with anything, all will have to give account for there sins.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight, but all things are naked and opened to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
I think most all know this to be a sin, but I do not need to judge anyone of this sin, God does that.
Heb 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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This reminds me. . . . . .(why am I still awake), Oh yea, Speaking of the health risks of two males having sex puts it in perspective with say, adultry. Now, adultry is obviously unhealthy with all of the sexully transmitted diseases out there. But to males having sex is far more dangerous. It is very easy for toxic seamen to make its' way into the blood stream through this type of activity. Therefore, this alone might make it a greater bodily sin than heterosexual promiscuity. Of course, men often do the same thing with wommen. Just a thought.
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Could all the many diseases associated with homosexual activity be due to God's sexual creation for the human species? God intended, and created us male and female for a reason. God also wants two people to get married, and then start having sex with each other and create babies. Now, what I am trying to say is, could all these many sexually transmitted diseases be God's way of punishing those who go against His rules and intent for sexual activity, and the purpose of it? I'm sure no scientist would agree, but they still think we evolved from apes; so what do they know?
Just my thoughts,
Sorin
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I should know not to speak so generally as I did when I said homosexuality was normal. An earlier poster said she thought it wasn't normal. I construe normal to mean average, typical, expected, and following a pattern. Abnormal would mean unexpected. About 4 % of the population are redheads. Because red hair is the least common color doesn't mean it is abnormal. It would be the least expected color, but you cannot say it is unexpected. Therefore it is normal. Homosexuals also are a small part of the population, but I cannot say unexpected, so that is why I said normal. I think when Jackie Lee said she didn't think it was normal that wasn't what she meant anyway. I think she was just saying it didn't sit well with her. I could have probably saved myself some trouble if I had understood that the first time I read it.
I didn't say that most animals are homosexual. I said it was natural behavior, meaning again, expected.
It does look to me like God created us with a different plan in mind than what was going on when He made all the creatures. He gave a model of what he wanted for us, and would punish us if we chose otherwise. I don't see where the creatures are held accountable to their actions as we are. Some animals engage in homosexual behavior when the opportunity arises, just as they engage in heterosexual behavior when the opportunity arises. God hasn't said anything to us about what he expects from them. In the OT he did say that if a man laid with a man he should be put to death. He said if a man laid with a beast, both should be put to death. He said nothing that I have found about what happens when a beast lays down with a beast. It is natural that they act like beasts to me.
I think Diana has brought up something important here. Sin is sin is sin, but sexual immorality has the added problem of sinning against your own body. When God gave us a model to be a man and a woman faithfully married to each other he kept us from the risk of the many dreadful diseases that come with all sexual immorality.
Sorin, please do not feel sorry for me. I do not like my position one bit. His purpose for what I am completely escapes me. Regardless of that I will trust Him that His will, will be done.
Steve
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Sorin:
I will *attempt* to share my opinion on this question:
Not that I am defending it, nor am I gay. But I want to know, why is homosexuality wrong (in your opinion/fact etc...). I mean other then The Bible/God's Word saying it's wrong, and an abomination etc...
What I mean is, can you give me a reason without referring to God, why homosexuality is wrong?
I can think of a few, but I'll let you guys answer first.
Can I give you any answer "...without referring to God..."? Absolutely not! Before God gave me the Law I didn't know what was good or bad. So my answers have to refer to God.
"...why homosexuality is wrong?" - This is what I think now... Note, it could be changed in the future.
What is sex for period? Sure, many would declare that it is for procreation. That's part of it for sure, but not a big part of it. God clearly let's us know thru Paul's letters that it would be optimal for each of us never to get married and thus have sex.
Sex is an example like everything else we experience in this age, directly or indirectly. It is the physical way we come together and become one.
We are to become one within a marriage. Marriage is becoming one. And there is order to marriage, the husband is to be the head. (Yes, I know most don't. But that doesn't change anything.)
Marriage is an example, too. We, the church, will marry Christ Jesus. An earthly marriage that follows God's instructions is an example and prepares us for being Christ's bride.
Now where does that leave homosexuality? Well... Instead of a Husband and a Wife, we have either a Husband and Husband or a Wife and a Wife. Instead of one head we have 2 or none. Neither work. Neither is our example.
That's my thoughts on this in a nutshell. There is more, but that's the basics.
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On a side note... I've heard many people in my life time speak about the evils of homosexuality. That AIDS and other STDs are Gods punishments for this.
While I can't provide you with scripture to back this up... I doubt this. AIDs and STDs don't get spread by homosexual behavior any more or less than heterosexual behavior. They get spread by not having monogamous sexual behavior, i.e. adultery and fornication.
You know... I find the focus on homosexual sin interesting. There's not much homosexual sin when compared to heterosexual sins. Yes, its still wrong. Still against God's example. But, isn't it interesting to see how much attention that is given to homosexuality and how very little is given to adultery, fornication, and lust. By the way, considering what I said about marriage and sex being an example. What are adultery and fornication examples of? It comes right back to the marriage of the church to Christ Jesus again.
Example after example after example... Good and Bad examples everywhere.
Sexual sins of all kinds have to be examples... After all, after this earthly life we will be like the Angels. They do not marry. And so they do not....
I'll stop for now,
\/\/ard
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Ward, so basically what you're saying is, if you take God out of the equation, homosexuality is not wrong at all. So then, how do you convince an atheist that homosexuality is wrong? You can't, if God saying it's wrong is the only reason you have. Same with adultery, after all, it's just two "consenting adults" (which are the two words the pro-homosexual crowd uses the most).
Also, have you not read what I posted about the many diseases that are due to homosexual activity? You can not tell me from those studies that homosexual activity is safe.
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Sorin:
I'll do my best to respond...
Ward, so basically what you're saying is, if you take God out of the equation, homosexuality is not wrong at all.
I'm sorry if that's what it sounded like. What I meant was that it was only because God has shown me that it is wrong that I knew it was wrong. Without God's reason, I have no reason. Maybe I would've had a reason that I thought was my own, but the first I can remember ever hearing about homosexuality was what I read in the scriptures. I'm sure I had to get a dictionary out to find out what the word even meant.
So then, how do you convince an atheist that homosexuality is wrong? You can't, if God saying it's wrong is the only reason you have. Same with adultery, after all, it's just two "consenting adults" (which are the two words the pro-homosexual crowd uses the most).
You are absolutely right on this... I don't. I can't. I can't do anything. Only God can. They will accept and believe only when God shows/teaches/drags them to it. i.e. Without God doing that to me, I would be right at home with the atheist you mentioned. Probably the Gay folks, too.
I have tried to speak to Gay people I know about this subject. I expected an angry response. Didn't get it though. But I didn't just talk about homosexual sin. I talked about sexual sin, too. That made a big difference. The people that I have spoken to noticed the hypocrisy they hear regarding the two. I ended up talking to them about the freewill, too. I've been very surprised at their responses. A few have really *seemed* to get it. Maybe, I'm fooling myself on that.
Also, have you not read what I posted about the many diseases that are due to homosexual activity? You can not tell me from those studies that homosexual activity is safe.
I would say that it is not the fact that the activities are between people of the same sex that causes these deceases in the homosexual community. Its caused by their having multiple short-term partners. I believe that many homosexuals have had many short-term relationships because that's all they believed they could have. They couldn't have a relationship that is public and long-term, because they risked problems in public. Things may be a little different now... But many of them risk their lives every day dealing with the public. (I can relate a little bit. Now I had many girlfriends in high school, but I was hit on by many gay men and accused of being gay by some of the straights. I was afraid and confused. Why do these gay men pick me? And what makes some straight guys think I might be gay even when they know about my girlfriends. And we've all heard what can happen to guys they think are gay when they are caught alone...)
Consider two men or two women... If they come together and they treat their relationship the way that heterosexual couples *should*. Meaning that they are only with each other, how does the parasitic disease get into the picture? Somebody's got to bring it into the relationship. As for the actual gay sexual activities causing problems... (Well... I decided not to leave this part of my message in. I don't want to offend any users by speaking about those types of activities. Not sure about the ages of the users here either...)
About the whole, being like the angels thing, which do not marry, therefore they don't.... that's the scripture that bothers me the most.
Because it doesn't make the next life appealing, in fact it makes it sound pretty awful. If I may be blunt.
Blunt. Shmunt... That one doesn't bother me in the least. I have felt the exact same way... How about this? When I read about the walls made of gems or gem-like material and the gates being made of pearl. I thought... Man... Talk about gawdy. How can we live in that? Yuck!
You know Sorin... We both think that it will be awful. What does that say about us? Is sex that important to us?
Maybe I should stick to talking about myself... I have thought the samething as I said... That concerned me. Its obviously one of my many problems. (What's funny is that since my divorce 16 years ago, I've only been intimate with somebody once and it was adultery. So... Let's see... I'm Celibate and I'm concerned about there being no sex after this earthly age. Nutty, but it used to be true.)
Well... That's my response so far... Does any of it make any sense? I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just thought about your original question for a few days and decided I would try to answer. Just in case... I'm more than happy to talk about this in depth. God uses you all to teach me so much. I'm sure he'll use you to teach me even more.
\/\/ard
Please accept my apologies if I have spoken about this subject in a way that offends anybody. Details, I mean... I decided a while back, that at Bible-Truths, I'd try my best to be open and honest.
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Are homosexual acts a greater sin than heterosexual sins ?
Well homosexual acts don't lead to abortion a greater sin. The killing of the unborn. How many abortions are caused by heterosexual acts outside marriage.At least in the homosexual act - murder isn't a by product. I think heterosexual sins can be more deadly.
Many teenage and girls in their twenties end up getting abortions from engaging in intercourse outside of marriage. How many innocent lives are taken from homosexual acts? I have known women who have had multiple abortions from one night stands. Not that they really wanted to have the abortions but faced with the truth that the guy they thought cared for them just wanted their body but not the baby. Love had nothing to do with it. Marriage is a great creation from God.
While I believe that homosexual acts are an abomination to God using His Word for the standard of what is right and wrong. As Protagoras has said if God doesn't exist , than man is the standard or measure of what is right and wrong. Another philosopher stated that if God doesn't exist than all things are permissable.
So to the atheist has his/her standards of right and wrong as well. So God is removed from the equation . Okay I will go on their ground then. Take their stereo and they will tell you it is wrong to steal. Then I would respond why is it wrong ? Why can't I take from you what I want ? It is not yours they will say. So what - why does it have to be mine ? Why can't I take what is not mine ? MY point here is that without God - you can't make sense out of anything.It is like Christendom- internal contradictions. If they appeal to the laws of men as a standard of right and wrong then they sink. Their feet firmly planted in mid air. Example : the laws at one time stated that blacks were not equal with whites
( Dred Scott decision ) . Or even laws stated women were not entitled to equal rights. Were those laws right ? If tomorrow they passed a law stating that rape was okay - would that make rape right ? Of course not. The German holocaust was wrong and evil based on God's law of thou shalt not murder. That is the justification in the International court in putting away the Nazi war criminals. The criminals were saying the U.S. hd no right in sentencing them. Germany was their country and they abided by their laws. The chief justice condemned them on the basis of God's law which He stated were above men's laws. You see in an atheist universe there is no right or wrong. All we are are molecules in motion. An accident. No purpose , no meaning. The same process ( the big bang ) that spit at cockroaches and dirt spit out human beings. So who is to say what is right or wrong in an atheistic universe.
I recall taking my young daughter at the time out and witnessing a Gay parade. We lived in L.A. at the time. We happened to be out and she saw men kissing each other. She was I would say about 5 or 6 years of age. She said "yuck " when seeing immoral acts and hid her eyes. She knew that what was going on wasn't right.
I worked with and knew quite a few homosexuals. All who are dead now because of aids. The pro homosexual crowd would say that if there are two consenting adults and if they are happy what business is it of mine to say it is wrong. I then responded by asking them why does it have to be two consenting adults. Why can't it be 3 or 4. Or why can't one person alone decide what is right or wrong.
Why does he/she have to consent with someone else. I mean if two decide to commit suicide does that make it right ?
I also did some work with "Exodus" a Christian organization helping homosexuals deal with the many emotional problems of guilt and etc. Yes deseases are rampant among the homosexual crowd but so with the heterosexual crowd. But most practicing homosexuals do want to come out of their sin. They face a lot of emotional problems. They want to be free from their sin. The pro homosexual crowd won't make that public though. So much for truth.
I know I am just ranting here but sin is sin. It is wrong for one to lie with someone of the same sex. But it also wrong for two unmarried heterosexuals to to have sex just the same. And like the minister Haggard who used to rant and rave against the sins of homosexuality was performing the same acts , we must not be hypocrites. Pointing at others and their sins while we are sinning ourselves.
The one thing is that one must be born from above to enter into the kingdom of God. Once one has the Spirit of God dwelling in them , God will do His work in them to transform them into Christlikeness. He is the Hope for all. He is the Savior of all men. Only in Christ will one become a new creation. Only in Christ will one come out of blindness and see the light. Our focus should be to bring the world the Good News of the Kingdom.
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I know a couple of guys, well they used to be guys at one time. One is still male but the other has had the surgeries, hormones, etc. so that she is now a female. They are great people and would do anything for anybody. They are also very talented artists. They have had a committment ceremony and have remained monogamous. I don't think that sex outside of marriage is the way God wants it to be but I don't see any greater sin in their lifestyle than I do in heterosexuals sleeping around with everybody.
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Mr. Snacks:
The reason stealing from someone is against against secular law is that the theif is making a victim (non consenting) of the one stolen from. Homo sexual activities concern nobody except the homo sexuals. So regardless of what is a sin against God, only one of these crimes would concern an outsider.
Ward:
The female vagina has natural antegins which take care of harmful affects of semen. It is also naturally lubricated to lower chances of abrasions. Homo sexuals do not natural benefit from lubrication. This is why homo sexual activities are dangerous. I realize that sometimes men and woman have sex as two men do, but not exclusively.
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Rodger,
I agree, there is no way to "justify" homosexuality unless of course you are an Atheist, and would sooner spit on God's law than obey it.
But otherwise, I see no way of "justifying" it. Even then, though, I simply can not agree with the Atheist that wants to "justify" homosexuality-to me it's just wrong, and that's all there is to it. In fact, homosexuality to me, seems far worse than pre-merital sex (between a male and female)and even prostitution. It's un-natural, it is an "abomination". Is adultery considered an "abomination"? No, it is simply considered sin, but "abomination" is pretty strong language. Adultery, does not "change the natural use", homosexuality does.
I'm sorry but anybody who considers homosexuality to be in the same category of sin as adultery (between a male and female) is simply kidding themselves. Homosexuality is far worse. And Scripture will attest.
-Sorin
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Where in the bible does it say one sin is worse than another in God's eyes? I know people see things differently but God????
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Where in the bible does it say one sin is worse than another in God's eyes? I know people see things differently but God????
Oh, so what Hitler did is not any worse "in God's eyes" than someone who just had pre-marital sex with his girlfriend?
Their punishment will be the same?
Well, I have a problem with that. A couple sleeping together un-wed never killed anybody. What Hitler did killed many, many, many people.
Besides, the fact that God calls homosexuality an "abomination" and never calls pre-marital sex an "abomination" shows that some sins are worse than others.
Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
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Of course some sins are worse than others, just as some will receive more stripes in judgement. Jesus showed by example which sins are worse in some cases. He sat down with certain sinners but not all. I'm also sure that it's a lesser sin to hate someone than to actually murder them. Same goes for lust as opposed to adultry, which I do believe is less of a sin than gay sex.
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Peace to you also Rodger! I will have to give this a lot of thought.
Nole
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hmm... hmm...
What does," GODS in CONTROL!" actually mean??. Well az wot Ive cum 2 believe & believe wholeheartedly!!! GOD is in CONTROL! alwayz!, alwayZ! haz & alwayz Will b, GOD has a plan 4 each & everyone of us on dis Earth in which HE is da Creator!, Yes!??. Hitler!, Osama!, Suddam, Homosexuals, gang members,nurses, doctors, Florists, Policemen, Pastors, nannies etc.. etc.. AlL GODS Plans aint they??, I dont no sumtimes on wot I read in here I get Amazed! @ how pple change in their thorts 2wards GOD & HIS Soverienty!, but it all cumz back 2 GODS plan 2 each, so I jus got 2 xsept dis is how GOD has dem 2 think coz its HIS plan 4 dem, it is all mind boggling!I must admit BUT!! I jus Pray GODs plan 4 me is 2 keep strong!! in HIS name as I know!! HE is the Creator! HE is the Judge! HE is the Deliverer! HE is the Redeemer! HE is the Way! HE is the Truth! He is the Light! HE is the Life! HE is our Stength! HE is our Rock! HE is GOD most High! etc.. etc... GODBLESS! uZ! AlL!, I felt I had 2 post dis lol! :D :D :)
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Sorin:
...Is adultery considered an "abomination"? No, it is simply considered sin, but "abomination" is pretty strong language. Adultery, does not "change the natural use", homosexuality does.
I'm sorry but anybody who considers homosexuality to be in the same category of sin as adultery (between a male and female) is simply kidding themselves. Homosexuality is far worse. And Scripture will attest.
Musicman:
... Same goes for lust as opposed to adultery, which I do believe is less of a sin than gay sex.
I'm not certain that your statements are correct. At least not based on the word "abomination."
Some Scriptures to consider.:
Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?(Jeremiah 7:9-10 KJV+)
And one hath committed abomination with his neighbor's wife; and another hath lewdly defiled his daughter-in-law; and another in thee hath humbled his sister, his father's daughter.
(Ezekiel 22:11 KJV+)
The LORD said moreover unto me; Son of man, wilt thou judge Aholah and Aholibah? yea, declare unto them their abominations;
That they have committed adultery, and blood is in their hands, and with their idols have they committed adultery, and have also caused their sons, whom they bore unto me, to pass for them through the fire, to devour them.(Ezekiel 23:36-37 KJV+)
There are more than one or two "things," that are defined as abominations:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. (Proverbs 6:16-19 KJV+)
Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the LORD thy God. (Deuteronomy 23:18 KJVR)
Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. (Deuteronomy 24:4 KJV+)
A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight. (Proverbs 11:1 KJV+)
They that are of a froward heart are abomination to the LORD: but such as are upright in their way are his delight. (Proverbs 11:20 KJV+)
Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight. (Proverbs 12:22 KJV+)
One more thing... Not to be picky here, but both of you provided some information in your posts regarding "...the many diseases that are due to homosexual activity?" Correct me if I am wrong, it seems that all of the information was regarding male/male activity. What about female/female? If you have such information it would be good to provide it, too.
All:
I am not trying to "justify" the sin of homosexual activity. As I said in my previous post, I accept that it is a sin, but I only came to know that it existed via the scriptures. I'm certain that I had to look up the definition at that time. (I'm pretty sure I was in 3rd grade.) I've already stated what my thoughts are on the reason why God calls it an abomination. I just feel that there is a whole lot more to it than its gross or un-natural. That's enough if that's all there is to it, but... This is God we're talking about. His ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
Based on the Scriptures that I listed (and there are more), there a more than a few sins that are listed as abominations. I have committed at least a few with MY proud look, MY lying tongue, MY heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, MY feet that be swift in running to mischief, MY stealing, and MY committing adultery.
For me... I try to keep my attention on My sins, whether they are listed as abominations or not. They are the weaknesses that I was given by God. As you can see there are more than enough. I think that I will expect the same from everyone else and their weaknesses. We are examples to one another.
Maybe some of you have a better way... But when the gay men and women I have met ask me about this subject (And Yes, they do *ask* me first...) I share the thoughts I have shared with all of you. (Yes, its a sin!) What I really find interesting... As a group, they have really looked into the Scriptures for God's words on this subject. Sure, some try to twist the Scriptures etc. But... (And I think this is a really really Big Deal!) When I start to share with them what I have been given to understand about the myth of "Free Will." They have listened so much closer than anyone else. They seem to be trying very hard to find out why they are different. Like I said, they've been studying the Scriptures on homosexual sin much harder than most of us have. When God opens their eyes to see that they are broken and so is everybody else. And that God is *really* God and, "...is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe." It really seems to make an impression. I pray that it does...
Just some info and thoughts I wanted to share,
\/\/ard
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sorin the homosexual's mind is all twisted up you don't think striaght and when you practice such things you get worst. The idea is to put on the mind of Christ. Right now there is this big movement in our atomphere to accept homosexuality its confusing people, teenagers, children. My daughter one year came home and said black people can't help being black and people should accept them just like homosexual can't help being what they are so we need to accept what they are doing. It came from one of her honors classes at school. public. I prayed first then got the Bible out did alittle more study and read scriptures to her, no preaching I felt the word was powerful in its self. One thing I did notice is that its the act of homosexuality. the act. that God hates. Its wrong, and being a mother of 6 children it was my job to say so it is wrong but don't throw rocks at these people that's wrong too. don;t hate them. Hate the sin not the person. It just seems its a balancing act at times being fully convince His way is right, sure footed not that i wouldn't fall but when i do fall i will repent and my Lord is faithful and just to deliver me from my sins. and raise me up in Christ jesus not of myself but Him. I am sure His way is right. peggy
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hmm... hmm...
What does," GODS in CONTROL!" actually mean??. Well az wot Ive cum 2 believe & believe wholeheartedly!!! GOD is in CONTROL! alwayz!, alwayZ! haz & alwayz Will b, GOD has a plan 4 each & everyone of us on dis Earth in which HE is da Creator!, Yes!??. Hitler!, Osama!, Suddam, Homosexuals, gang members,nurses, doctors, Florists, Policemen, Pastors, nannies etc.. etc.. AlL GODS Plans aint they??, I dont no sumtimes on wot I read in here I get Amazed! @ how pple change in their thorts 2wards GOD & HIS Soverienty!, but it all cumz back 2 GODS plan 2 each, so I jus got 2 xsept dis is how GOD has dem 2 think coz its HIS plan 4 dem, it is all mind boggling!I must admit BUT!! I jus Pray GODs plan 4 me is 2 keep strong!! in HIS name as I know!! HE is the Creator! HE is the Judge! HE is the Deliverer! HE is the Redeemer! HE is the Way! HE is the Truth! He is the Light! HE is the Life! HE is our Stength! HE is our Rock! HE is GOD most High! etc.. etc... GODBLESS! uZ! AlL!, I felt I had 2 post dis lol! :D :D :)
Godsown,
I mean no offense, but must you type like that? It is quit painful to read. In fact, it is why I don't bother to read your posts. Seriously, that is not even a language. And I believe I also speak on behalf of many others here who feel the same way but are too afraid to say anything because they don't want to offend.
Well, I'm one of those people that will speak his mind, no matter if it offends others or not. Though my intent isn't to offend, but rather
to try and get you to type properly so that I/we may be able to actually read your posts.
I hope you take this, not as an offense, but as advice,
Sorin
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simple answer YES!! I do,
U mite hav 2 learn 2 read ma Posts coz u mite learn sumfing coz U seem 2 hav alot of Doubt!, aw! well U r GODS work in progress!, Im not offended on hw U fink I write I do get offended on ur doubts U do hav, but! d@s HIS plan HE has 4 U n e way. Trust in GOD & know!!!! HE is in Control, ur time will cum 1 day brother/sister wen ur Eyes r Open, GODBlesS U!.
muchLOVE!! Pera
Ps. n e way dude if U dont read wot I write, wot U complaining 4?? Plus speak 4 urself not 4 others, PeaceOwt!!
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I agree with you on that! Stand steady friend!
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Passage 1 Corinthians 6:9:
9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
This list includes everyone. Everyone who ever lived is and will be guilty of more then one of these sins in their life time. The truth is in the Beatitudes
Love for Enemies
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Jesus practices this by dieing on the cross. There is no another person born of this world who is not his enemy. We are all Jesus' enemy. We may not wish to be, but we are. We are all of perdition.
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Rodger,
I agree, there is no way to "justify" homosexuality unless of course you are an Atheist, and would sooner spit on God's law than obey it.
But otherwise, I see no way of "justifying" it. Even then, though, I simply can not agree with the Atheist that wants to "justify" homosexuality-to me it's just wrong, and that's all there is to it. In fact, homosexuality to me, seems far worse than pre-merital sex (between a male and female)and even prostitution. It's un-natural, it is an "abomination". Is adultery considered an "abomination"? No, it is simply considered sin, but "abomination" is pretty strong language. Adultery, does not "change the natural use", homosexuality does.
I'm sorry but anybody who considers homosexuality to be in the same category of sin as adultery (between a male and female) is simply kidding themselves. Homosexuality is far worse. And Scripture will attest.
-Sorin
Hey Sorin,
Thank you for your post. It caused me to start thinking more seriously about the relationship of sins. Is one really worse than another. Blasphemy seems to take the prize, but what about the others? Growing up Catholic, the nuns taught us children that masterbation was a mortal sin, along with murder and not going to church on Sunday. I could only imagine that having sex with another person would be so grievous a sin that I would go straight to hell. I now believe that the babylonian concepts of mortal and venial sins as defined by my trusty old baltimore catechism are a crock. ;D
Your point about scripture attesting to the validity of that kind of concept really threw me for a loop. Abomination and Anathema are two of my all time favorite words from KJV. Abomination is such a colorful, forceful and powerful word. [Just thinking about the abominable snowman sent chills of horror in my youth] That is probably why the translators of the KJV used the word abomination so often. A search by e-sword of KJV show hits of 79 times in 69 verses. Alas, even though I really like the word, I believe that the translators of scripture might have been over zealous in their use of this hypberbolic word.
Even so, for those of us who believe that "abomination" is God's own chosen word, it is interesting to see what is covered. The obvious cite is Lev. for man lying with man. Ward also covered very well the fact that adultery is labeled an abomination several times.
Imagine my chagrin to find that my favorite breakfast of bacon and eggs today was an abomination. And to think that every time I told a lie I had committed an abomination. It seems that even things we don't think as being all that serious are called an abomination just as is murder. I couldn't find any varying degrees of abomination indicated in the translations. Is there some ranking of sins somewhere? There is one quote from Jesus in Luke 16:15 where He states that things highly esteemed among men is an abomination to God. That summed it all up for me.
The subject of homosexuality seems to be such an emotional topic. Is there any reason to try to justify it? Can you justify anal sex with your spouse? What about oral sex? What about fornication of any kind? Is there any justification for any of it? I think the judgment belongs to God not us. We are sexual beings and have urges that are necessary for the survival of the species. It would seem to Paul that our best chance is to remain celibate for life. [He must be the original Shaker ;)] How far we go to create a sin is still very unsettling to me.
Speaking of shaking, thanks for shaking things up and giving us a chance to ponder some things. I now have a few more questions to add to search for truth.
be blessed
feat
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Harryfeat, What's wrong with oral? ???
I thought the marriage bed is "undefiled"?
God only said: " Thou shall not lay with mankind as with woman kind"
He said nothing about "oral". ;)
As for anal, not really my cup of tea.
-Sorin
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You know, I often hear about sex being for the survival of the species. Well what does sexual gratification accomplish? How bout. . . survival of the individual? That's right. If one does not take care of one's sexual needs, he is neglecting his/her own health. There are a few ways to accomplish this. Either have sex with your spouse, your mistress, or with, you know, your. . . oh man I can't say it. Anyway, isn't it a sin to neglect your health. One does this by abstaining from all physical gratification? They say prostate cancer is caused by such neglect. So, I guess we can get married or be damned. By the way, does anybody want to touch on the issue of contraceptives? So much for survival of the species.
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Harryfeat, What's wrong with oral? ???
I thought the marriage bed is "undefiled"?
God only said: " Thou shall not lay with mankind as with woman kind"
He said nothing about "oral". ;)
As for anal, not really my cup of tea.
-Sorin
Hey Sorin,
That is exactly my point. If I understand your posts correctly, you seem to think that homosexual sex acts are the gravest of all sex sins between consenting adults. However, there are many who believe oral and anal sex are sins and that the sex organs are to be used for procreation only. Where do their beliefs come from? Where did your take on same sex being worse than adultery come from? Can we say that either is scriptural?
Is eating pork a sin? It seems to be against the law according to Lev. What about lobster? It is also an abomination. What do we take from the OT laws to bring forward today. As far as I know, the ten commandments mention adultery and murder and false witness but is silent to same sex. If same sex is so much worse why doesn't Christ mention it, or the ten commandments mention it.
I was taught that almost all sex acts save certain marital ones are a sin. Scripture, in particular the OT might bear most of that out, I don't know for sure. Christ's message from the new testament rings very strongly with me. His two commandments summarize the ten commandments into two categories. Loving God with your whole heart is the first category and the second deals with how you treat everyone else. This gist of it all is that whatever you do to your neighbor that is harmful is against the ten commandments. It includes lying cheating stealing adultery murder coveting goods and wives.
The distinctive difference between fornication and adultery is that adultery hurts the third innocent part and breaks a vow to be faithful. Fornication is usually between consenting folks so there is no third party hurt by the situation. I view same sex acts as a type of fornication. It really doesn't matter what I think though, I am just trying to give you a different perspective
What challenges me in my search is whether non adulterous sex acts that are between consenting adults are truly sinful. Yes I know what the OT "Jewish bible" translations say for the most part. What part of Leviticus and the other OT books of laws do we bring forward? How much of it is valid for today's world? These are questions I am dealing with personally and do not advocate any denial of belief for anyone else.
Please don't get me wrong. These are questions that come to me when people say "how do you justify"
I hope that my questions and search for truth perspectives aren't clouding the issues for anyone else. I am just trying to explain it to you. Make no mistake. Please don't jump to conclusions like others have already done. My basic philosophy is still-----when in doubt, it is probably a sin.
Clear as mud huh ::)
I hope this helps explain but I know my muddled mind and strange way of conveying ideas tends to confuse.
feat
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Oh Rodger, now don't hold back - tell us how you REALLY feel! :)
I did want to bring up one thing you said. I'm assuming you didn't really mean to put this in there:
Those persons can love, support, forgive and mercify, those corrupted preists all they want.
But NOT I !!, I will pray for God's GRACE upon those priests and COMFORT for thier VICTIMS.
We are instructed by God to forgive as he forgives us. And surely you haven't forgotten that it is only God's grace that keeps you from sins of homosexuality and other sexual abominations. As Ray has taught us, had you lived under the exact same conditions as the people who commit these abominations, well, you would be committing the exact same sins. Forget the equality or inequality of sins. It's God's grace that determines the sins we commit in this world - nothing more. Given that humbling, spiritual truth, how can we be so unforgiving of certain sins? I am not in any way trying to justify or suggest we need to accept them. But I AM saying we must forgive those who commit them, for God commands us to.
Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;
Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
I think that's what troubles me the most about this thread - what I perceive to be a general lack of forgiveness and charity for those who struggle with this particular sin. I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I get.
Love and peace,
Carol
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It is apparent we have exhausted this topic and it is time to move on, let me leave you with this verse from James....
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe