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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: zander on May 22, 2011, 11:50:14 AM
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OK so just want to bring to attention another email Ray posted on March 25th here.
2 things he talked about which i am seeking clarification on. Again, if you know Ray personally, you may know how to answer these questions better.
Lying:
Ray said this in his email:"Lying has its purposes. It depends on the motive. Rahab lied about the spies
and it was counted to her as righteousness, seeing that she saved lives. Lying to harm others
without any redeeming value or purpose, is of course a sin and will be judged. The
commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
This struck me. Can someone confirm to me then that lying can be ok and is NOT a sin in some cases then? Any thoughts?
Secondly
Sovereignty
Ray says this: By the way, the word "omnipotent" does not mean "the ability
to do absolutely anything," as you suggest. It means sovereign or unlimited power or
authority. I'm not quit sure just how much power and authority it takes to lie, but regardless,
God can't do it. Of the ten times that "pantokrator" appears in the Greek Scriptures, only
once is it translated "omnipotent." The other nine times it is translated "almighty."
I am trying to understand this properly. Does this mean God therefore CANNOT do "absolutely anything?" I understand he cant lie and cant be evil etc. But to read in a sentence that God cannot do anything puts a new slant on things for me and kind of answers a question ive had for a few years - Is God limited? If God CANNOT do everything, is he therefore limited in some way? If he cannot "snap" his fingers for all to "instantly be like him", then i see this as a kind of limit. Not in a bad way, but a limit. It also made me think, does even God have total free will?
Anyway any thoughts really, im not expecting solid answers as i know not everyone knows everything.
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You can't be something you're not. God also "can't" be a liar, evil, darkness, etc. because He has stated throughout the scriptues that He is the opposite of those things.
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As for question #1
This struck me. Can someone confirm to me then that lying can be ok and is NOT a sin in some cases then? Any thoughts?
You answered it yourself.
Rahab lied about the spies and it was counted to her as righteousness, seeing that she saved lives.
Craig
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Also for consideration, withholding the truth at times isn't necessarily lying either. There are times when too much honesty can be detrimental. Say your spouse cooks something for you and she really worked hard at it and it really tastes terrible, or the standard of 'Honey, does this dress make me look fat?' There are times where discretion is the better part of valor. Being less than totally honest at times isn't always a bad thing.
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The topic of lying and whether or not we should/can has been one that gives me pause as well. I know that Rahab lied, and it was counted as righteousness. However, there's this verse:
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars [G5571], shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
G5571
ψευδής
pseudēs
psyoo-dace'
From G5574; untrue, that is, erroneous, deceitful, wicked: - false, liar.
G5574
ψεύδομαι
pseudomai
psyoo'-dom-ahee
Middle voice of an apparently primary verb; to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood: - falsely, lie.
My personal take has been to err on the side of caution. Though I can see that it may be the intent behind the lie that is the real issue.
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The choosen are all going through our lake of fire in this life John as I know that you can testify to. We either judge ourselves now with God's help or we shall be judged later. Kind of like the Mr. Goodwrench commercial 'You can pay me now or pay me later.' We are all going to pay one way or another. There is a lot to overcome in this life. For consideration there were also time when Jesus was evasive and didn't directly answer a question as well.
Joh 7:8-10
Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.
Luk 24:28 And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
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Hello everyone just thought I would chime in
firstly "can it be ok to lie?"..of course it can lying is not black and white quite to the contrary. an example..
A man is hiding Jews from the Nazis they come and ask him about them.no brainer right?
I think when it comes to issues such as these they are issues of conscience and, for me, when in a situation that seems unclear I ask 2 questions of myself
1.what is the motivation in my heart?
2.what is the effect of my actions?
If both of those things are good and can sit well with me then the action itself becomes irrelevant as I am not worried about another man judging me.
Secondly, I thought that it was untrue to say God CAN'T lie but rather he does not lie. Or to say he chooses to "can't lie" if that makes any sense. I guess that is semantics in a way but that's how I thought it. :)
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The post by JohnMichael is a very good one as it says in scripture "all liars" have their part in the fire. So if you are lying in order to save someones life - is that an extra part of your consience thats then held accountable in the "fire"?
Ray says "The commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
So, basically, is he saying we can lie so long as we dont harm anyone and its for a good purpose? So if my boss asks me if i have done a peice of work - and i havent because i was pressed for time and i risked his/her wrath if they knew i hadnt - is that bad? (supposing also the boss never found out either) I am sure there is no hard and fast answer to this
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I think that as John stated, "Though I can see that it may be the intent behind the lie that is the real issue." that seems to be the key to understanding this.
1Sa 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him; for the LORD sees not as man sees; man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart."
We all know the 10 commandments and how we should obey 'the letter of the law,' which is to strictly obey exactly what it says. But we are now being judged by the spirit of the law or what is really in our heart.
2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
This does not release us from obeying the law, but takes us to a must higher degree of obedience. Jesus even gave us examples of this.
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'
v. 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.
v. 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
So it does seem like it's the real intent of the heart that God looks at and for which you will be judged.
Luke 6:43 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
v. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. ~ :)
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We all know the 10 commandments and how we should obey 'the letter of the law,' which is to strictly obey exactly what it says. But we are now being judged by the spirit of the law or what is really in our heart.
In saying this you actually raise an interesting point. John baptized Jesus in the River Jordan and this was before his Resurrection. After His Resurrection there would be no need to be baptized in water because after His Resurrection there will be no need for the letter of the law because we are now judged by the spirit of the law. Just as the Old Testament is the shadow of things to come and the New Testament details the real deal. We are now baptized by the Holy Spirit. The physical was water and the spiritual is The Holy Spirit. Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
John 1:27-34 (Concordant Literal)
27 He it is Who, coming after me, has come to be in front of me, of Whom I am not worthy that I should be loosing the thong of His sandal."
28 These things occurred in Bethany, the other side of the Jordan river, where John was, baptizing.
29 On the morrow he is observing Jesus coming toward him, and is saying, "Lo! the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world!
30 This is He concerning Whom I said, 'After me is coming a Man Who has come to be in front of me,' for He was First, before me.
31 And I was not aware of Him. But that He may be manifested to Israel, therefore came I, baptizing in water."
32 And John testifies, saying that "I have gazed upon the spirit, descending as a dove out of heaven, and it remains on Him.
33 And I was not aware of Him, but He Who sends me to be baptizing in water, That One said to me, 'On Whomever you may be perceiving the spirit descending and remaining on Him, This is He Who is baptizing in holy spirit.'
34 And I have seen and have testified that This One is the Son of God."
Matthew 3:1-17 (Concordant Literal)
1 Now in those days, coming along is John the baptist, heralding in the wilderness of Judea,
2 saying: "Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!"
3 For this is he of whom it is declared through Isaiah the prophet, saying, "The voice of one imploring: 'In the wilderness make ready the road of the Lord! Straight...be making the highways'" of Him!
4 Now he, John, had his apparel of camel's hair and a leather girdle about his loins. Now his nourishment was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and entire Judea, and the entire country about the Jordan,
6 and they were baptized in the Jordan river by him, confessing their sins.
7 Now, perceiving many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?
8 Produce, then, fruit worthy of repentance.
9 And you should not be presuming to be saying among yourselves, 'For a father we have Abraham,' for I am saying to you that able is God, out of these stones to rouse children to Abraham.
10 "Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
11 For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire,
12 Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire."
13 Then Jesus is coming along from Galilee to the Jordan to John to be baptized by him.
14 Yet John prohibited Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by Thee, and Thou art coming to me!"
15 Yet, answering, Jesus said to him, "by your leave, at present, for thus it is becoming for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he is giving Him leave.
16 Now, being baptized, Jesus straightway stepped up from the water, and lo! opened up to Him were the heavens, and He perceived the spirit of God descending as if a dove, and coming on Him.
17 And lo! a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I delight."
So it does seem like it's the real intent of the heart that God looks at and for which you will be judged.
Luke 6:43 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
v. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
We can still live in the world and not be of the world. It's all about the intentions of the heart. Is it alright to watch a movie labeled mostly bad if you ignore the ungodliness and watch the parts that are of God? I think that the answer is yes but I'd like to know your thoughts. Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)? I think that the answer is yes, yet, again. Please share your thoughts on this as well.
1 John 2:14-17 (Concordant Literal)
14 I write to you, fathers, seeing that you know Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, youths, seeing that you are strong and the word of God is remaining in you, and you have conquered the wicked one.
15 Be not loving the world, neither that which is in the world. If ever anyone is loving the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16 for everything that is in the world, the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of living, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon.
Romans 12:2 (Concordant Literal)
2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect.
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The post by JohnMichael is a very good one as it says in scripture "all liars" have their part in the fire. So if you are lying in order to save someones life - is that an extra part of your consience thats then held accountable in the "fire"?
Ray says "The commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
So, basically, is he saying we can lie so long as we dont harm anyone and its for a good purpose? So if my boss asks me if i have done a peice of work - and i havent because i was pressed for time and i risked his/her wrath if they knew i hadnt - is that bad? (supposing also the boss never found out either) I am sure there is no hard and fast answer to this
Oh yes, there's a hard answer to this, but it's not fast. ;D
One thing is pretty easy to fathom, however. We have a God who knows the very motives of our hearts, unlike the 'boss' in your example.
The Word of God is like a two-edged sword. Religion tries to make it a blunt instrument and bludgeon people with it. It's real intent, however, is to kill no matter which way it's swung. There is none righteous. No, not one.
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1 John 2:22 (KJV)
WHO is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:22-23 (TLB)
And who is the greatest liar?
The one who says that Jesus is not Christ. Such a person is antichrist, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son. For a person who doesn't believe in Christ, God's Son, can't have God the Father either, But he who has Christ, God's Son, has God the Father also.
Joel
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Hi HopeinChrist,
Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
I would not say that it's "dangerous" to be baptized in water, it just won't 'save' you, just get you wet is all. We can not choose to have the spiritual baptism either, God will brings you to it to not.
Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)?
We do not want to get caught in the legalism trap. What is okay for me, might not be so good for you or vise versa, as we all have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not up to us to find good works to do. If the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, He will do good works through you, He will see to it that the fruit of the spirit will be produced. So you do not have to worry about getting your works, the Spirit will accomplish whatever God so desire in you. We need to do what God brings to us and we can't find works ourself to increase our reward, that would be our works, not His works.
Ray explains this really well in the Bible study 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 ------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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AMEN Kat!! Thank you so much for posting this!! I tried to say this a couple of times in the past in so many ways but I'm finding I don't often communicate well so it's not received well at times but the meaning is the same. Ray makes the point right on target!! Thank you thank you thank you! ;D ;D ;D
Grace
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You know what your motivations are its just a matter of being honest about it. And being honest is not the same as rationalizing ;) although sometimes they can be confusing. At this point in our journey towards God outside of religion we have the ability to look past the legalism and dogma and see truth. To start giving out "what if this" scenarios would do no good because each situation is different and God judges hearts so check that first. But even good intentions can have negative consequences to other people so we have to be sure that is not happening. I use this formula not just for lying but all gray issues..christmas..going to church..etc.. I am happy I have the freedom to make these decisions myself and not be enslaved to an organisation who usually see things as black or white. In reality life is really a whole lot of grey area.
Thats just me though.. :)
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The post by JohnMichael is a very good one as it says in scripture "all liars" have their part in the fire. So if you are lying in order to save someones life - is that an extra part of your consience thats then held accountable in the "fire"?
Ray says "The commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
So, basically, is he saying we can lie so long as we dont harm anyone and its for a good purpose? So if my boss asks me if i have done a peice of work - and i havent because i was pressed for time and i risked his/her wrath if they knew i hadnt - is that bad? (supposing also the boss never found out either) I am sure there is no hard and fast answer to this
Hard and fast answer = DON'T LIE! 8)
Zander, in the examples you give here, the first one I think is a selfless compassionate act for another and the second is a selfish act of wickedness that could have easily been avoided by man-ing up, telling the truth and taking the heat for missing the mark. IMO, the first one could fetch a "well done, good and faithful servant" and the second, even though some would surely label it just a little white lie that didn't hurt anyone, that one gets burned out in the LOF.
The good thing about those of us who are having or will have their part in the LOF for lying is that it is God that decides what is and what is not a lie instead of us. I don't think Ray is endorsing lying.
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Hi HopeinChrist,
Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
I would not say that it's "dangerous" to be baptized in water, it just won't 'save' you, just get you wet is all. We can not choose to have the spiritual baptism either, God will brings you to it to not.
Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)?
We do not want to get caught in the legalism trap. What is okay for me, might not be so good for you or vise versa, as we all have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not up to us to find good works to do. If the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, He will do good works through you, He will see to it that the fruit of the spirit will be produced. So you do not have to worry about getting your works, the Spirit will accomplish whatever God so desire in you. We need to do what God brings to us and we can't find works our-self to increase our reward, that would be our works, not His works.
Ray explains this really well in the Bible study 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 ------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Thanks for your response, Kat. I used to think that it was our faith but I always knew that it was God's Grace. Then, I learned from God that it was His faith working in us. I learned this even before you told me so but thanks for reminding me of the Truth.
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In the beginning God created...
In my view, that which created the beginning is above anything that has been created (Potter vs Pot). Personally I am greatful and humbled that He took pity on me and though not perfect, by grace He has turned me into His workmanship, so having no rights, I patiently wait, observing little changes that would otherwise be easy to miss, I remain forever greatful. I look forward, with hope and prayer that though He may remove His comforts, atleast His mercies endures forever. So, in a round about way, I find it unlikely that a 'computer' could say to its maker, 'you could have created me differently' - having such a thought its an indictment in itself (nothing excites the devil more than finding opportunities to cast doubt - 'surely ye shall not die' - this has been his classical approach and he has not refined it, just adapted it to the 21st century ;D!!)
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him,and keepeth not his commandments,is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
So, having professed that we love God and want Him to use us as He see fit, I think is also important to know that it is neither His intentions nor His purpose to burden us unnecessarily, I am of the view that when presented with any situation, asking oneself 'what would Jesus do under the same circumstance' would go a long way, and remembering the golden rule also help :D - I generally check with my concience, if its troubled I stay away, if its 'impossible' to, I usually check how troubled I will become about after the incident, just a litmus test - I do not make it a habit to lie though, but to say I haven't since coming to His knowledge will be a lie itself - Lying is a sin (context is important though ;D)
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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It's wise that you understand the doctrine of free-will. The majority of Christianity has believed it even myself personally. Then I grew to learn the real Truth. There is no such thing as free-will. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE-WILL. I will further discuss though such is a complicated expedient. I start by saying that there are three types of will. No-Will (0% will, the only time you had no-will was when you were in an un-born state), Limited-Will (0. to the infinite decimal % to 99.9 infinite 9 %), Free-Will (Non-existent, only discussed).
Man-kind has limited-will but God's Sovereign Will is greater. We can choose to do whatever we want though should we? NO. Remember, choice is always two-fold. Sinful choices and Godly choices.
The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.
2 Timothy:12-13 (Concordant Literal)
12 if we are enduring, we shall be reigning together also; if we are disowning, He also will be disowning us;
13 if we are disbelieving, He is remaining faithful -- He cannot disown Himself."
God wills in us. Everything was planned ahead of time. Rest assured He is putting us through all the trials and sin in life for a reason and what is this reason?
Romans 8 18-23 (Concordant Literal)
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
To bring us back up again. Life is a journey.
:)
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Hi Zander,
Sovereignty
Ray says this: By the way, the word "omnipotent" does not mean "the ability
to do absolutely anything," as you suggest. It means sovereign or unlimited power or
authority. I'm not quit sure just how much power and authority it takes to lie, but regardless,
God can't do it. Of the ten times that "pantokrator" appears in the Greek Scriptures, only
once is it translated "omnipotent." The other nine times it is translated "almighty."
I am trying to understand this properly. Does this mean God therefore CANNOT do "absolutely anything?" I understand he cant lie and cant be evil etc. But to read in a sentence that God cannot do anything puts a new slant on things for me and kind of answers a question ive had for a few years - Is God limited? If God CANNOT do everything, is he therefore limited in some way? If he cannot "snap" his fingers for all to "instantly be like him", then i see this as a kind of limit. Not in a bad way, but a limit. It also made me think, does even God have total free will?
About your question on God's sovereignty, something that Jesus said came to mind.
Mark 2:27 And He said to them, The sabbath came into being for man's sake, and not man for the sabbath's sake.
This was concerning Christ healing on the Sabbath day, which the Pharisees strongly objected to because it was unlawful to do any work on the Sabbath.
Mark 2:24 And the Pharisees said to Him, Behold, why do they do that which is not lawful on the sabbath day?
So when you think about this, it was God who created the code of the law by which we should live to determine what is right or wrong. So when the Pharisees were in an uproar because Christ healed on the Sabbath day, He reminded them that He was Lord over these laws that they were holding against Him.
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the sabbath.
So is God limited by His own laws? No of course not. Can we hold God to a code of law that was created for weak minded mankind? Of course not.
When you think of this God being and His power and greatness (such a weak sounding word when used to try to express God), what kind of limits could He have? I would think it would only be self-imposed limits for whatever He had determined He would not do.
At the close of the 08 Nashville conference Ray speaks about what God must have went through to "birth" wisdom. Before He came up with this perfect plan to create beings in His own image He needed the wisdom to do so.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8831.msg73653.html ------
He could not build this universe until He possessed the wisdom to do it before the creation came, the master plan and the wisdom to do it. How did He get that wisdom? He birthed it! Under the travail and pain and agony, that He passed on to women to experience a minute little insignificant part of what it is like to bring about children that are going to be in the image of God.
He travailed with pain and agony, until wisdom was birthed out of Him, so that He could now build the universe. It says so! Well you can say, ‘I don’t see it.’ I don’t care, this wisdom was with Him before the heavens and the earth, it was with Him. But where did it come from? He birthed it with great pain, travail and sorrow. It was difficult for God! So don’t think that God hasn’t done anything for us.
God has never suffered? God has never had to work hard? God has never had to go long periods of time and not get what it is He wanted? Don’t think that way anymore. You have a Father in heaven that can identify with everything you are.
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So when you try to think of what this eternal Being must of had to go through to come to a point where He understood with perfect wisdom the difference in good and evil, it's just incomprehensible... BUT HE DID! Surely we do not understand even to a minute degree the awesomeness power and wisdom and love of this glorious Being. But He did obtain wisdom and He formed a plan to create beings in His image and is now He is carrying that plan out to prefection. It is His work, is He restricted by His own laws? Is there any limits that this sovereign God has? I would think only self-imposed ones.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Forum,
Below are some of the points regarding Lying, Deceiving, Bearing False Witness that were especially good, copied & pasted below in Blue. Furthermore, Let Me state that Lying as it relates to bearing false witness doesn't include witholding information to those who are not entitled to receiving it. In the past, I've been accused of Lying on this basis. For instance, suppose you get Married and aren't ready to share that information with others, including some relatives, because Your experience with doing so led to emotional injury and plotting from those wishing to undermine & ruin Your Marriage, so You decide not to share that information. I don't consider that Lying, because this information(My getting Married) is none of anyone's business, except God's, My wife & Mine until I decide to let others know.
Bearing False Witness against One's Neighbor consists of a Lie intended to harm or injure that Neighbor by some deception. Many people are Gossipers and slanderers and will take information that they really aren't entitled to with the desire to CAUSE HARM OR INJURY. Sometimes the intent is not malicious, but a result of an individual opening their "big Mouth" spreading Your personal information & usually forgetting exactly what you told them, hence, the information becomes distorted.
From Mark902: You know what your motivations are its just a matter of being honest about it. And being honest is not the same as rationalizing Wink although sometimes they can be confusing. At this point in our journey towards God outside of religion we have the ability to look past the legalism and dogma and see truth. To start giving out "what if this" scenarios would do no good because each situation is different and God judges hearts so check that first. But even good intentions can have negative consequences to other people so we have to be sure that is not happening. I use this formula not just for lying but all gray issues..christmas..going to church..etc.. I am happy I have the freedom to make these decisions myself and not be enslaved to an organisation who usually see things as black or white. In reality life is really a whole lot of grey area.
Hello everyone just thought I would chime in
firstly "can it be ok to lie?"..of course it can lying is not black and white quite to the contrary. an example..
A man is hiding Jews from the Nazis they come and ask him about them.no brainer right?
From Arion: Also for consideration, withholding the truth at times isn't necessarily lying either. There are times when too much honesty can be detrimental. Say your spouse cooks something for you and she really worked hard at it and it really tastes terrible, or the standard of 'Honey, does this dress make me look fat?' There are times where discretion is the better part of valor. Being less than totally honest at times isn't always a bad thing.
From Craig: As for question #1
Quote
This struck me. Can someone confirm to me then that lying can be ok and is NOT a sin in some cases then? Any thoughts?
You answered it yourself.
Quote
Rahab lied about the spies and it was counted to her as righteousness, seeing that she saved lives.
Craig.
Below are some Scriptures for consideration !
Deu 5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Lev 19:16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
Pro 11:13 A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.
Pro 26:22 The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly.
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Deu 19:16 If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
Deu 19:17 Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
Deu 19:18 And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
Deu 19:19 Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
Deu 19:20 And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
Just My Take, Samson.
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Hi HopeinChrist,
These things that you are mentioning here are already in the BT articles in great detail. The idea of a 'limited' free will was addressed in the article 'The Myth Of Free-Will Exposed.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------
Believing in contradictions is absolutely necessary if one is to accept most Christian doctrines, and this "limited free will" is just another one of them. Let’s take a quick look at this idiotic proposal of "limited free will." It is nothing more than the "square circles" theory all over again.
Here is how my Twentieth Century Webster’s Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.
So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?
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The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.
It was hard for me to understand exactly what you are saying here. It sounds a little Trinitarian, but I don't think you meant it to. Ray has spoken a lot on the subject of the Holy Spirit here are a couple places that I thought would help clearify things.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------------------------------
The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
v
v
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).
Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!
Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.
The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "God’s" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)
The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------------
THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
COMMENT: The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God." However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18). Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15). The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS. "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi HopeinChrist,
These things that you are mentioning here are already in the BT articles in great detail. The idea of a 'limited' free will was addressed in the article 'The Myth Of Free-Will Exposed.'
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html -----------------
Believing in contradictions is absolutely necessary if one is to accept most Christian doctrines, and this "limited free will" is just another one of them. Let’s take a quick look at this idiotic proposal of "limited free will." It is nothing more than the "square circles" theory all over again.
Here is how my Twentieth Century Webster’s Dictionary defines "limited, a. restricted" (Page 963). And here is how this same dictionary defines "free, a. without restriction" (Page 682). Got it? "Limited" means: RESTRICTED, and "free" means: WITHOUT RESTRICTION.
So scholarly theologians would have us believe that man possesses a will that is, "RESTRICTED WITHOUT RESTRICTION." What? Does anyone see a problem with this limited free will theory? Does the word "contradiction" come to mind?
----------------------------------------------------------
The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.
It was hard for me to understand exactly what you are saying here. It sounds a little Trinitarian, but I don't think you meant it to. Ray has spoken a lot on the subject of the Holy Spirit here are a couple places that I thought would help clearify things.
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html --------------------------------------
The holy spirit is never called God, God is never referred to as a trinity or a person or consisting of three, and Christ is the Son of the Father, YET this mysterious doctrine is believed by millions. Why?
v
v
In Mat. 12:28 Jesus said He cast out demons "by the SPIRIT of God." Yet the Pharisees claimed He did it by the power of Beezeboul. Jesus told the Pharisees that accusing Him of casting out demons "by the power of Beezeboul," when He did it by the "spirit of God," is blasphemy against the "holy spirit" (Ver. 32).
Here is clear and simple proof that the "spirit of God" and the "holy spirit" are ONE AND THE SAME SPIRIT--not a third person of a so-called trinity!
Again let me state: Anything that is "of" or "from" someone else cannot BE that same someone else! Nothing can be "of" someone and yet, at the same time, "be" that same someone! This is axiomatic.
The holy spirit is something that God the Father possesses--it is not a separate, third god or deity of some fabled trinity. The spirit "of" God is "God’s" spirit. And notice that God offers His spirit as a gift to those who ask:
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:13)
The holy spirit is not an entity of its own, but is rather a possession of God which He gives to us.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4995.0.html -----------------
THerefore SInce the "SPIRIT" (holy spirit) is THE LORD(the father), the father must be the spirit.
COMMENT: The "Spirit" is the possession of God the Father--it is "The Spirit OF God." However, God has given His Son Jesus Christ this SAME spirit. God has shared ALL with His Son: "ALL power in heaven and earth is given Me" (Matt. 28:18). Jesus takes of the Spirit His Father has given Him and gives it to US (John 16:15). The "Comforter" (the "parakletos) IS JESUS. "And if any man sin, we have an Advocate [Gk: 'parakletos] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous" (I John 2:1). Jesus Christ IS, the Lord of the Old Testament; the Lord of the New Testament, the Comforter (Parakletos), which is the promised Holy Spirit, which comes to us through JESUS CHRIST, and so "The Lord is that SPIRIT."
God be with you,
Ray
Yes, I understand what you had said. By no means do I think that God is a trinity or triunity, although I thought of Him once as a triunity. Thanks for not jumping too soon to any conclusions. I know that the Father is God, and not Jesus or The Holy Spirit, thus the Unity of God. Jesus and The Holy Spirit are PART of God. We pray to the Father and we can to Jesus but not The Holy Spirit. What's the reason why we do not pray to The Holy Spirit? I forget but only remember that there was a Scriptural reason. However, Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father and Christ is Emmanuel (Immanuel) or God with us. I want to make sure that I understand this accurately. He was the physical representation of God on Earth?
Matthew 6:6 (Concordant Literal)
6 "Now you, whenever you may be praying, enter into your storeroom, and, locking your door, pray to your Father Who is in hiding, and your Father, Who is observing in hiding, will be paying you.
John 14:13-14 (Concordant Literal)
13 And whatever you should be requesting in My name, this I will be doing, that the Father should be glorified in the Son.
14 If you should ever be requesting anything of Me in My name, this I will be doing.
Ephesians 1 (Concordant Literal)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to all the saints who are also believers in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God, our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among the celestials, in Christ,
4 according as He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight,
5 in love designating us beforehand for the place of a son for Him through Christ Jesus; in accord with the delight of His will,
6 for the laud of the glory of His grace, which graces us in the Beloved:
7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
8 which He lavishes on us; in all wisdom and prudence
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ -- both that in the heavens and that on the earth --
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.
13 In Whom you also -- on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation -- in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise
14 (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!
15 Therefore, I also, on hearing of this faith of yours in the Lord Jesus, and that for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention in my prayers
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,
18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
19 and what the transcendent greatness of His power for us who are believing, in accord with the operation of the might of His strength,
20 which is operative in the Christ, rousing Him from among the dead and seating Him at His right hand among the celestials,
21 up over every sovereignty and authority and power and lordship, and every name that is named, not only in this eon, but also in that which is impending:
22 and subjects all under His feet, and gives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia which is His body, the complement of the One completing the all in all.
Isaiah 7:14 (Young's Literal)
14Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel,
Isaiah 8:8 (Young's Literal)
8And it hath passed on into Judah, It hath overflown and passed over, Unto the neck it cometh, And the stretching out of its wings Hath been the fulness of the breadth of thy land, O Emmanu-El!
Matthew 1:21-23 (Concordant Literal)
21 Now she shall be bringing forth a Son, and you shall be calling His name Jesus, for He shall be saving His people from their sins."
22 Now the whole of this has occurred that that may be fulfilled which is declared by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Lo! The virgin shall be pregnant And shall be bringing forth a Son, And they shall be calling His name 'Emmanuel,'" which is, being construed, "God with us."
:D