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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Addison on December 23, 2014, 08:56:34 PM
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Matthew 27: 50-54:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, and the earth shook; and the rocks were split, 52 and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. 54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
1.) Who exactly are the "saints" being resurrected here? How can you be a saint without being made so through Christ? Were these OT saints?
2.) Was it only saints who were buried in Jerusalem? I wouldn't guess that this would include any saints buried elsewhere (assuming there were any)
3.) Did these saints ascend to heaven with Jesus?
4.) In Acts 2:29, Peter said "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day."
... So apparently David wasn't included in this resurrection of saints...?
5.) Why is Matthew the only gospel writer to mention this event and also that there was an earthquake at the time of Jesus' death?
6.) If they were raised to immortality or for only a short period only for that day? For what purpose?
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Hi Addison,
Here is an email reply from Ray regarding this scripture which should answer some of your questions:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,86.0.html
Dear Cesar:
Those resurrected at the time of Christ's crucifixion were saints well-known in Jerusalem. Jesus had publically stated that He is the resurrection. The resurrection of these saints was proof of His statement.
These saints were resurrected physically, so that they could be seen by those who knew them and who knew that they had died. They were not given immortal bodies at that time, and hence, just like Lazarus, died again. In the resurrection to eonian life, the saints are given SPIRITUAL bodies and immortality, not physical life (I Cor.15: 44).
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Addison,
Here is an email reply from Ray regarding this scripture which should answer some of your questions:
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,86.0.html
Dear Cesar:
Those resurrected at the time of Christ's crucifixion were saints well-known in Jerusalem. Jesus had publically stated that He is the resurrection. The resurrection of these saints was proof of His statement.
These saints were resurrected physically, so that they could be seen by those who knew them and who knew that they had died. They were not given immortal bodies at that time, and hence, just like Lazarus, died again. In the resurrection to eonian life, the saints are given SPIRITUAL bodies and immortality, not physical life (I Cor.15: 44).
God be with you,
Ray
God post Rene.
Addison,
I will also add that to your quoting of paul, these verses:
Hebrews 11:13 These [The patriarchs of old, the saints?] all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
I think its safe to say that the saints that were raised were not the fathers of the old testament that we know and all the prophets but rather saints of the time that people would have known in and around Jerusalem.
After Christ's resurrection we also have this in Acts of paul:
Acts 13:36-37 "For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:"
As for whether the saints ascended to heaven, no they did not. As ray said, they died and returned to the dust. THE resurrection of the dead has not yet happened.
2 Timothy 2:18 "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some."
I also find this following train of thought another good reason for why no one is "in heaven" or "alive in heaven" or "ascended to heaven."
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
While this statement was made before Christ was resurrected it appears from the scriptures that God will be coming to us. We will not being going UP, or ascending, to be with Him.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
While this is an entirely symbolic statement with much greater spiritual implications, I do believe it establishes a pattern for us to understand things through, including the coming millennial reign of Christ.
Luke 21:27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."
Isaiah 26:9 "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."
2 Corinthians 6:16 "What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Numbers 14:21 "But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord."
Habakkuk 2:14 "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea."
So again, while many of these verses have multiple spiritual layers to them, i believe there is a pattern here that to me seems to indicate God is coming to us. He is coming to be with us (Yes, he is already here in us and making His home in us who have been called and chosen, but like I said, many layers of spiritual truth here). The same will be when Christ returns to this world to raise the dead. Those that overcome will be raised with glorious spiritual bodies and be like Christ to help Him usher in His new kingdom here on this earth. I don't think anyone goes up to some cloudy place or "heaven" area to be with God. Of course, I don't think we can even begin to comprehend what it means to be raised completely spiritual other than what Christ said about being invisible and powerful like the wind. That's how I see it right now. It makes sense too considering the vast majority of the world including the old patriarchs will be raised in physical bodies and undergo judgement. How could that happen if not the for the coming kingdom being set up here on earth?
God bless,
Alex
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6.) If they were raised to immortality or for only a short period only for that day? For what purpose?
Hi Addison, I believe that these saints - followers of Christ, not yet given the Holy Spirit which came at Pentecost, were raised (though not to immortality) as a witness of the profoundness of what had just happened. That these people were raised from the dead was not insignificant and it was to call attention to the relevance that our Savior had just died! And think they could now receive the Spirit that was yet to be given. I would think these believers would had themselves been walking testimonies to who Christ was, the Son of God!
Hi Alex, just wanted to may a little comment on something you said.
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
While this statement was made before Christ was resurrected it appears from the scriptures that God will be coming to us. We will not being going UP, or ascending, to be with Him.
Actually I believe that the elect will ascend "up" to meet Christ in the air, right before He with them descend back down to earth.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The elect will have been changed and given spiritual bodies, so can and do rise up to meet/join with Christ - enter the kingdom right there in the air/clouds. I think there is a verse in Rev 11 that also is speaking of this... just simply put I think these "two (symbolic number, not literally 2) witnesses" (from verse 3) are the elect.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Now I'm not saying they are whisked off somewhere, they are with Christ right there in the air/clouds above the earth, preparing to descend with Christ. I can see how the "marriage supper" (Rev 19:9) may be an actual event that will take a little time, I mean I would think the elect will need at least a small adjustment period. But then they do descend back to earth with Christ.
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
And who are these "armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen"? Back up a few verses.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
v. 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Just thought I would give you this to consider.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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6.) If they were raised to immortality or for only a short period only for that day? For what purpose?
Hi Addison, I believe that these saints - followers of Christ, not yet given the Holy Spirit which came at Pentecost, were raised (though not to immortality) as a witness of the profoundness of what had just happened. That these people were raised from the dead was not insignificant and it was to call attention to the relevance that our Savior had just died! And think they could now receive the Spirit that was yet to be given. I would think these believers would had themselves been walking testimonies to who Christ was, the Son of God!
Hi Alex, just wanted to may a little comment on something you said.
John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
While this statement was made before Christ was resurrected it appears from the scriptures that God will be coming to us. We will not being going UP, or ascending, to be with Him.
Actually I believe that the elect will ascend "up" to meet Christ in the air, right before He with them descend back down to earth.
1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The elect will have been changed and given spiritual bodies, so can and do rise up to meet/join with Christ - enter the kingdom right there in the air/clouds. I think there is a verse in Rev 11 that also is speaking of this... just simply put I think these "two (symbolic number, not literally 2) witnesses" (from verse 3) are the elect.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
Now I'm not saying they are whisked off somewhere, they are with Christ right there in the air/clouds above the earth, preparing to descend with Christ. I can see how the "marriage supper" (Rev 19:9) may be an actual event that will take a little time, I mean I would think the elect will need at least a small adjustment period. But then they do descend back to earth with Christ.
Rev 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
v. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
v. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
v. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
And who are these "armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen"? Back up a few verses.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
v. 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
Just thought I would give you this to consider.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Great addition Kat. Sure, I can see what you are saying to be entirely the case. Thanks for adding a few more pieces to the puzzle. I guess over all the point I was trying to make is still valid though. Is this how you understand it as well? Just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who is interpreting things this way: That Christ will establish His kingdom here on this earth and not that humanity will go up to Him in "heaven" (with the exception of what you just added in relation to the elect for that brief time).
God bless,
Alex
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Hi Addison,
Just a few thoughts. We know, from what Ray taught us, that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here."
Luke 14
8 "When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not take the place of honor, for someone more distinguished than you may have been invited by him,
9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this man,' and then in disgrace you proceed to occupy the last place.
10 "But when you are invited, go and recline at the last place, so that when the one who has invited you comes, he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher'; then you will have honor in the sight of all who are at the table with you.
11"For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted [def. placed at a high or powerful level; held in high regard].
Proverbs 25:7 it is better for him to say to you, "Come up here," than for him to humiliate you before his nobles.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.
And since the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols that signify many things, do we think this is a literal voice, coming from literally up in the literal clouds?
And if they're literally INSIDE clouds, how can their enemies literally see them?
Heb 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,
Did the writer of Hebrews mean that they were literally surrounded by a literal great cloud of literal witnesses? Or does this cloud of witnesses signify something/someone else?
Now I'm not saying they are whisked off somewhere, they are with Christ right there in the air/clouds above the earth, preparing to descend with Christ.
Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,
Power of the air. There's an expression people used to use, maybe they still do in some situations where the atmosphere is different, like when they're in an exciting place: Oooooo! There's a charge in the air here tonight, isn't there?!
Or when some snotty, high-minded person enters a room:
Ooooo, feel that chill in air?
He's not literally talking about the literal "air" in Ephesians, so why would the "air" in Thessalonians be literal air?
The prince of the power of the air. Satan is not a literal prince, is he? And while he does have power given to him by God, he's not concerned with air conditioning.
When we talk about a person's personality, we say things like, Man, he is so positive! Or she is so negative. Or we'll get finished talking with someone and leave feeling like we've just had the life drained from us.... "God, they are such a drain! Blah, blah, blah, yap-yap-yap. I thought they'd never shut up.... just went on and on and on..."
Kinda like I'm doing now...
I'm almost positive all that stuff is symbols, and not literal.
But I could be wrong.
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Great addition Kat. Sure, I can see what you are saying to be entirely the case. Thanks for adding a few more pieces to the puzzle. I guess over all the point I was trying to make is still valid though. Is this how you understand it as well? Just trying to make sure I'm not the only one who is interpreting things this way: That Christ will establish His kingdom here on this earth and not that humanity will go up to Him in "heaven" (with the exception of what you just added in relation to the elect for that brief time).
Yes I do have that understanding of those saints being physically raised as well Alex.
Hi Gina,
And since the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols that signify many things, do we think this is a literal voice, coming from literally up in the literal clouds?
And if they're literally INSIDE clouds, how can their enemies literally see them?
What makes the Scripture such a great mystery is because there is no pattern to the symbols, what a symbols is in one passage does not necessarily mean the same in another. Each symbol must be considered by the context.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here."
In this verse I showed, this is the actual and literal return of Christ, He is speaking to His elect and raising them from the dead and those alive undergo a miraculous change, this is literally them going from physical bodies to spiritual bodies... I believe their ascent up and off the earth is literal as well. They are entering the spiritual kingdom that cannot be seen by the physical eye, but they are no longer earth bound, so they go up and rally together with Christ, before they come back down to take total control on earth. And once the elect are raised I do think they will be able to literally hear Christ's voice.
More specifically in order for the elect to descend down to earth with Christ, they must have ascended up from it prior to this. In Rev 19:14 we see they "followed Him" as Christ is literally descending to earth. Also New Jerusalem - the elect are "coming down out of heaven" to be seen on the physical earth.
Rev 21:2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Acts 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
I'm just trying to show that the return of Christ is a literal event that will happen and some how this most momentous event in the history of the world will be seen by every person on the earth.
Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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But Kat, come on, seriously... we were taught that this New Jerusalem is not a literal but a spiritual city made up of a spiritual body of believers whom Christ has elected (called out -- "come out of her my people!") to be in his spiritual army/government.
John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
I believe that Jesus did ascend into heaven and descended from heaven. And I believe he has a heavenly kingdom. And I believe His Father who is in heaven is near to us, so near that He is basically on our lips.... God is everywhere. Ray even said so. But some neither enter in themselves and prevent others from entering in this spiritual kingdom of the heavens.
The Psalmist wrote:
If I should ascend up to heaven (he means to become exalted, puffed up in some way shape or form), Thou art there! And if I should make my bed in sheol , lo! Thou art there! (Does he mean make his literal bed in the realm of the unknown/imperceptible? Call me wacky, but I think he means, become lost or destroy himself in some way shape or form. You've heard the expression: "Well, you made you bed, so lie in it!")
Jesus said, repent! For The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Literally at hand? As if flesh and blood could inherit it?
Jesus said that my words are spirit. And since they're spirit by the gospel accounts, I guess I was wrong to assume they're spirit in Revelation. So, Let me stay in the back of the bus and remain quiet for the duration of this thread. I'm content to do that.
:)
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Yes Gina, it is about the spiritual, the elect are the Body of Christ, the Temple that is being prepared - put together now in the heavens.
1Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
What do you think those mansions are that Christ mentions?
John 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
v. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Those mansions are a figure of speak of what the elect are, they are being prepared now and Christ will bring them to Himself, literally, when He returns.
Though the elect are most certainly of the body now, they are only given a earnest/guarantee/promise for now.
2Cor 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
v. 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2Cor 5:5 Now he that wrought us for this very thing is God, who gave unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Now in this life we are being prepared, made ready to actually born into the kingdom and given glorious spiritual bodies. But for now it's only a little taste, just enough to get us prepared.
1John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Cor 2:9 But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him"—
I think about how Christ was after His resurrection, He appeared to them as a physical man, He took fish from them and ate it to prove this (Luke 24:41-43). Yet He could come and go completely unrestrained by the physical and He could appear where they could not recognize who He was (Mark 16:12; Luke 24:16). He was then using the attributes of His spiritual body, beyond the restrictions of the physical and I believe the elect will be like that when born into the kingdom.
How do you think the elect will rule the world if it can't even see them. I believe that Isaiah has many passages that speaks of the next age, like this one.
Isa 30:20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction (those being jugded, corrected in the next age), yet shall not thy teachers be hidden anymore (this is speaking of the elect in the next age), but thine eyes shall see thy teachers;
v. 21 and thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it; when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
This age has it's purpose and is working according to what is necessary for that, and the next age will be for a different purpose and many things will be different and that is physical things as well as spiritual. The great majority of mankind will still be physical in the next age and will need to be dealt with physically by Christ and the elect. The next age will bring about changes that this world has never known before.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I am in agreement with Kat on this matter. I see it the same way.
I was going to add some of the things Kat mentioned now but she beat me to it!
God bless,
Alex
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Dear Kat,
I'm not saying I have it all together, and I'm not trying to put anyone down, but a knowledge of verses and scripture will not give us understanding. These things are spiritually discerned.
I don't want to argue. Really. But I do not believe that God's purpose change from one age to the next. God changes not, and neither does his intention. It is what it has always been: To write His laws on the hearts and minds of everyone.
All I said was, And if they're literally INSIDE clouds [which is how as you see it], how can their enemies literally see them? That's all I said. I wasn't insinuating that they couldn't be seen at all. Obviously their enemies can see them, which proves these are not literal clouds that they are inside of.
This is absolutely exhausting. I don't have the time or the inclination to sit here and spell things out -- that is not my job. These things are spiritually discerned. Arguing about these things with you is definitely not The New Jerusalem -- it's the spirit of the world. I'm sorry I said anything. I'll be quiet.
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Hi Gina, we have these discussions to learn from one another, that's the purpose of this forum. If I have offended you it was not my intention.
I was not saying that God had changed His mind, not at all... the next age was always meant to be a time of judgment on the world, this age is not, that's a big difference and that is what I was pointing out.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you everybody. I am in agreement with you all for the most part but I just wanted to check to get some perspectives from you all too. I believe those who were resurrected were raised simply as a witness of Jesus' resurrection.
I agree that the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20) is not the same raising of the dead as Matt 27. And I do not believe that these were any of the OT saints. Only through those God elected as Saints to reign with Him would they be made perfect and given their ultimate reward (life), correct?
Hebrews 11:39-40 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Thanks again!
-Addison
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Hi Addison:
Only through those God elected as Saints to reign with Him would they be made perfect and given their ultimate reward (life), correct?
Hebrews says that only together with [not through] them would they be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:39-40 "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Imagine being Paul and coming into contact for the first time with one of those patriarchs he wrote to the Hebrews about. I imagine what their reactions will be at that first meeting, and what their first words would be. "Good to meet you, too! Yeah, God had something better planned. I don't know about you but that was the best sleep I have ever had in my life! I didn't wake up once! The lentil soup here is outta this world. The 3D printer makes it from scratch. Glory to God. :)"
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I've removed a post which was 'teaching'.
Here's Hebrews 11:40 in several translations.
Hebrews 11:40
(ABP+) G3588 [3of GodG2316 4forG4012 5usG1473 2something betterG2908 G5100 1having foreseen],G4265 thatG2443 [2notG3361 4separate fromG5565 5usG1473 1they should 3be perfected].G5048
(BBE) Because God had kept some better thing for us, so that it was not possible for them to become complete without us.
(Darby) God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
DRB) God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us.
(KJV) God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
(LEB) because God had provided something better for us, so that they would not be made perfect without us.
(LITV) God having foreseen something better concerning us, that they should not be perfected apart from us.
(Murdock) because God had provided the aid for us; so that without us they should not be perfected.
(WNT) for God had provided for them and us something better, so that apart from us they were not to attain to full blessedness.
(YLT) God for us something better having provided, that apart from us they might not be made perfect.
To match, since this scripture is not its own interpretation:
1Co_6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
This is what Ray taught, as best I have been able to follow. Tomorrow I'll locate a portion of BT to share if nobody else does, but tonight I am whooped.
What I have consistently failed to understand whenever the topic of the OT saints not being first comes up is: WHY IS THIS BAD NEWS?
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Okay Dave I found some of Ray's teaching on this.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html ----------------------------
Of course. Soloman was the wisest man ever to grace the face of the earth except for Jesus Christ. Men of the Old Testament were saved just as we of the New Testament times are. We are saved through faith, just as Abraham was. As we look back in History to Christ, the men of the Old Testament looked forward in the future to Christ. The sacrifices that were made did not save man, they were really just a putting off of sin until Christ did come. All throughout the Old Testament God revealed Christ through prophecy. The tabernacle, and all ofits surroundings, furniture, priestly robes, etc. all picture Christ in some way. The alter represents Christ's sacrificial death, the laver represents Him as the living water and cleanser of our sin. The Table of shewbread, bread of Life. Candlestick- light of the world. Incens e alter- our Great High Priest and intercessor. Mercy seat- merciful God. Manna- Jesus again as the Bread of Life and our sustenance, our Spiritual sustenance. Yes, Soloman knew about Christ. Did he know His name was to be Jesus, a form of the name Joshua? No. Men of the old testament knew Him as Immanuel, the Son of The Most High God. Do not think me ignorant, I am not trying to put you down or attack you. I am only trying to pursuade you to study your Bible spiritually as well as logically. Dave
Dear Dave:
Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.
What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing! And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:18). Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ. "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes. Are we 'saved by faith?' NO--'By GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8. Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life? NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).
Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins? NO. No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']" (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).
Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?' Answer: "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN H-I-M [JESUS]" (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.
Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4240.0.html -----------------------
Mr. Ray
My name is Joshua. I am writing about two things I saw in your website. Even though a lot of your stuff is truth, some of it is not. Not everyone is going to be saved, and not everyone is going to heaven. It says in the bible, in the book of revelation, " Those whose name was NOT found in the lambs book of life were cast into the lake of fire. " People say " Why would a loving God send people to Hell? " Well the answer is simple, he doesn't. People send themselves when they decide NOT to follow Jesus. It is called free-will. Also about the trinity. Read John chapter 1. It says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word clearly being Jesus .... BECAUSE later in this chapter it says " The Word became flesh. " I dont care if you respond, because if you do, you will probably degrade me like you do a lot of these people. Like when you call them " dumb " and " wretched. " I am sorry, but that is not the personality of a Man of God. I will be praying for you brother. God Bless.
Dear Joshua: You and the whole world of Christendom "ASSUME" certain things by certain verses of Scripture. You are "assuming" that if one does not have his name written in the Life of the Lamb's book of life, that that person will then be lost for all eternity. Or that if one is thrown into "the lake of fire," he is unsaved for ever. These are all false assumptions. Death is not the final destiny of anyone. The lake of fire is not the final destiny of anyone. These are also false, unscriptural assumptions.
Look at the "destiny" of the Patriots and Fathers of the Old Testament. Did they "die and go to heaven," as it so foolishly taught by Christendom? NO. Not even Enoch and Elijah. They ALL DIED, and not one of them "received a promise that was given them by God." Let's read it:
"These [those mentioned above: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah--and those that follow later in this chapter]...These ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." (Heb. 11:13). Hebrews was written many many centuries AFTER all of these godly men died, and according to the author of Hebrews, they did not and had not YET received the promises. Imagine that: Dead for centuries and have NOT received their promises. But, they will, in the yet future, after the resurrection of the dead to judgment (Verses 39-40). The lake of fire is judgment; it is not ETERNAL TORTURE. And the Judgments of God bring godly righteousness: "When THY JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9). What good is it if we do not believe ALL the Scriptures.
The "trinity" doctrine is not false based on whether Jesus is deserving of the title "God," but rather on whether the Holy Spirit OF God the Father, is indeed separateate "person" from God the Father. The Holy Spirit is NOT A PERSON. It is GOD'S spirit. Jesus was "conceived" by this Spirit OF the Father, and that is why Jesus is "the SON OF THE FATHER," and not "the Son of the Holy Spirit."
I'll leave it at that. It would do you well to read all the material on our site and look up all the Scripture references before you make final judgment as to whether I teach the truth or not on these subjects you present.
God be with you,
Ray
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Yes we must always becareful to consider the "SUM of thy word," knowing that "no verse is at all becoming its own interpretation."
As ray used to say, King David's last words were to kill his enemies and make it bloody. King David died an unrepentant murderer and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He will have to be judged and judgement in the next age occurs in the lake of fire, which is Christ and the Elect. Our God is a consuming fire.
Just some added thoughts to this topic. If anyone want's to find where ray said this about king David, feel free to add it! I know he did! :)
God bless,
Alex
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Okay, so to sum up: those who died not having received the promise, will learn righteousness through judgment via the elect of God. I also understand that the first resurrection is for God's chosen elect who are perfected for the job to be judging [in righteousness] the world which comes up in the 2nd resurrection to judgment.
What I have consistently failed to understand whenever the topic of the OT saints not being first comes up is: WHY IS THIS BAD NEWS?
Exactly. I don't think the OT saints are going to be objecting to receiving the promise of their faith: salvation and healing.
THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XII
GOD JUDGES THE WORLD IN A POND
WHENCE THE WORD LAKE?
Interesting word, this word "lake." The word lake in Rev. 19, 20, & 21 is "limen, which comes from Strong’s "[#3040--limen] (through the idea of nearness of shore); a POND (large or small) -- lake."
And the word limen means "a harbor—haven, the fair havens" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, p. 151).
A pond? God judges the world in a pond? Yes, God judges every unrepentant, unbelieving, wicked person that has ever lived (billions and billions and billions of people) -- The WHOLE WORLD OF HUMANITY (who are not in the first resurrection)… in a pond. A pond of divine, purifying SPIRIT.
This word limen has the word "fair" before it in Acts 27:8, in the King James Version—the "fair havens." Other translations render this verse as "safe harbor." (My father helped build Safe Harbor Dam in Pennsylvania).
Is not even the definition of this word and its root, comforting? And so even in this most solemn setting of God’s judgment there is a hint of safety and security.
Do any really believe that God wants to play just one more insane cruel joke on the majority of humanity which are supposedly destined to an eternity of torture in fire, by telling us that this insane pit of torture is going to take place in a SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY? Is God Almighty going to torture the majority of humanity in a place He jeeringly calls: a pond, a lake, a "SHELTERED PLACE OF SAFETY?"
It is true that, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God" (Heb. 10:31), but that does not negate the fact that there is also "safety, shelter, and covering" in God’s Divine Pond of Spiritual purifying FIRE.
http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html
(That is one of my favorite papers of Ray's!)
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King David's last words were to kill his enemies and make it bloody. King David died an unrepentant murderer and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
I was under the impression That spiritually,in this quote, David is "in the place of God" (The Father) and Solomon (in the place) of Jesus the Son,and David's instructions to Solomon are as the fathers to Jesus regarding his enemies " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet".
Stupid me,
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Whether or not David represented thre Father or Solomon the Son represented Christ (I and my Father are ONE) is not the issue with resurrection and judgement. David lived, David died, and David will be raised from the dead. THIS covenant is NOT IN ACCORD with the old. HIS ENEMIES were flesh and blood. OURS are not. His WEAPONS were carnal. Ours are not. One is the shadow--the other the fulfillment. THIS is a "better thing".
The others mentioned in Hebrews did NOT say or do the things David did, yet they all died and will be raised from the dead to have their works judged whether good or bad.
Jesus was first. He won't be the last. If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be.
Thanks, Kat, for the leg-work.
Thanks, Gina. If I were a prophet of old having died without receiving the promise of what I had prophesied, I would be HAPPY (BLESSED) to see it fulfilled and to understand at last what I didn't. At what measure of the prophecy I HAD seen fulfilled in my life, I would be overwhelmed at the magnitude of what God will eventually do, and HOW He will do it.
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King David's last words were to kill his enemies and make it bloody. King David died an unrepentant murderer and murderers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.
I was under the impression That spiritually,in this quote, David is "in the place of God" (The Father) and Solomon (in the place) of Jesus the Son,and David's instructions to Solomon are as the fathers to Jesus regarding his enemies " For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet".
Stupid me,
Hi Ian,
Here are a few things ray said on this very subject.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html
Why is all this Old Testament in here, hundreds and hundreds of pages… why is it in there? Why was it preserved? Why was it so meticulously copied, letter for letter thousand and thousand... we have about five to ten thousand copies of the Greek scriptures. Some of them are recent, 1800-1900’s. Some of them go back to the 4th and 5th century, really old. Why... “For our admonition upon who the ends of the age have come…”
That’s what the scripture says. Those people won’t even be saved (in OT). It was not for their admonition, it’s for OUR admonition. They all died deceived. I mean people almost fall out of their chairs when I tell them that King David will not be in the Kingdom of God! He was never converted, he was never born again, he was never begotten anew, he was never spiritually regenerated. His very dying words were, “Make it bloody, kill my enemies!” He told Solomon, “You’re a wise man, you’ll know how to do it, but make it bloody, I hate those guys…” Those were his dying words. Do people like that go into the Kingdom of God? “But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES!” It was written for our admonition.
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html
We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don’t need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form. When God says, love your enemies... If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away. Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.
But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area. God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies. First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies. Well, where did they hear that of old? About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody. That was King David, not God. But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said. Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.
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Dave from Tenn also makes a good point and I would just add to all these things that taking a shadow and turning into the object that is casting a shadow is dangerous in my humble opinion. If david and solomon was symbolic for the Father and Christ (which personally I cannot say one way or another as I have not looked into this), they in know way become the Father and Christ. David will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. He died an unrepentant murderer who hated His enemies. What did Christ say about those things? They shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Ray also pointed out that as Christ said, you have to be born again, this cannot happen without the spirit of Christ, the holy spirit, which the world had not yet received during the time of David nor would receive until after pentecost.
Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
In Christ,
Alex
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You're welcome, Dave.
All I know is, the elect are very, very strong emotionally, mentally and spiritually in order to be able to withstand the carnal-minded backlash they are going to receive. They cannot revile when they are reviled, and they cannot threaten when they are threatened. As weak as I am to the pulls of the flesh when someone just looks at me cross-eyed, when I think of the enormity of the elects' task, I have a whole new layer of respect for Jesus and all of God's elect. The amount of patience and wisdom and emotional stability and strength it would take to raise just one child who hates your guts, to a place where they could function semi-well, exhausts me just thinking about it. But to raise billions and billions to full perfection and understanding and perfect, self-less love without growing weary of doing good or fainting in all that "heat" blows my mind.
That's too high for me... I need to go lay down now.
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look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,
Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David
regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?
Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
Act 9:8 Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."
Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
And
This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs “Jesus had not died yet“
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last. If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture
Im not being difficult now but ... Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.
Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.
Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command
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look Alex I hear you but, need to stress you cannot be lukewarm here, If you understand that David is a murderer (in the shadow/literally) thats OK, What is the spiritual meaning of Davids instructions?since I cannot write my understanding as I always seem to appear as teaching, perhaps you can answer...while you are thinking on that,
Is Jesus the spiritual "son of David"? we do know he is literally the 26th grandson of David
regarding resurrection what do I do with these scriptures ?
Job 19:25 Yet as for me, I know my Redeemer is living, And after this He shall arise on the soil;"
Job 19:26 And behind my skin I will stand erect, And from my flesh I shall perceive Eloah,
Act 9:8 Now Saul was raised from the earth, yet, his eyes being open, he observed nothing. Now, leading him by the hand, they led him into Damascus,
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."
Mat 16:27 Verily I am saying to you that there are some of those standing here who under no circumstances should be tasting death till they should be perceiving the Son of Mankind coming in His kingdom."
And
This below scripture should cancel out of our mind the carnality and foolishness of an idea that to quote ...re the patriarchs “Jesus had not died yet“
Rev 13:8 And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world."
Dave your statement that Jesus wont be the last is not true... let me quote you "Jesus was first. He won't be the last. If He was not raised from the dead, neither will I be" this part is scripture
Im not being difficult now but ... Jesus is the first, however he is ALSO .... the Last , there are more than 2 witnesses to back this up.
Finally is the bible a literal "book" to you or is it life giving spirit ? is each word inspired by God? if so, then to interpret/perceive these precious words literally, is death.
Lean not unto your own understanding, is a command
Hi Ian,
I don't know if I can say David's "instructions" had "spiritual" meaning. By instructions, are you referring to what he said regarding his enemies? "Kill them and make it bloody?"
David was a carnal man and died an unrepentant murderer as we already showed.
This is what I know about spirit and flesh.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity [Deep seated hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)? King David did not walk in the spirit being baptized into Christ's death and reckoning himself dead to the flesh but alive to the spirit as we who have been converted and conceived by the spirit do now. This is how I understand it. I cannot see right now how David's words of murder and hatred are "spiritual" as you (from what I'm perceiving) do.
You shared many verses below to which the meaning and purpose behind is not quite clear to me.
I know regarding Matthew 16:27 what Ray has shared on the matter and I agree with him on it. Here is what ray says regarding that verse:
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http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html
As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). And just when DID they see this? Answer--next verse:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?" No. Read verse 9:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
It was all a "VISION." It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).
Hope this helps your understanding. The Scriptures do not contradict their own truths.
God be with you,
Ray
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Here is the sum of the word regarding the matter of Rev 13:8 (remember that no verse at all becomes its OWN interpretation):
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
This is how God could say that Jesus had been slain from the foundation of the world, because He calls those things that are not as though they were. It is the very same reason that we are NOW sons of God even though we have not yet been born into the kingdom of God, only given the earnest of His spirit as a downpayment of the future redemption to come when we will be born into the kingdom.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Now because God calls those things that are not as though they were.
Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are. I see a lot of people becoming confused by your post and it is perhaps why the moderators removed the previous post if indeed it was your post that david was referring to as being one that was "teaching." I unfortunately did not see this post before it was removed but I trust God that it was removed for the right reasons.
In Christ,
Alex
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Ian, I will give you an answer as I see it.
As far as Job goes he knew he would be dead in the grave and "wait," till he was raised/changed to a new body.
Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
Acts 9:8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. (NASB)
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
With this verse in Revelation, yes of course Christ has the keys to death and the grave, He was able to raise people during His earthly ministry as He so desired and return them to a physical life and He will call all from their grave in the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
In 1 Cor. 15 Paul was speaking to those that did not believe in the resurrection at all and if you will look a little further down in that same chapter you can see where Paul was going with that... the resurrection at His return!
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Matt 16:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
In this verse in Matt 16 Christ is speaking to His disciples, and Judas would have been there as well, the phrase "shall not taste of death" could very well have been speaking of the second death and could have applied to Judas, he was the only disciple that died before Christ was crucified and raised and was not able to receive the Holy Spirit and repent.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This certainly applies to the fact that God's plan was established before the world was created.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (RSV)
Also the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Anyway that is the answer I see to all the verses you have listed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Ray taught that, properly translated, Rev. 13:8 is talking about the names being written in the Book of the Life of the Life being written there from the foundation of the world--not that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
See Kat's post above for a second witness.
When was the Lamb slain?
Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time came, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 in order that he might redeem those under the law, in order that we might receive the adoption.
Jesus the Lamb came, lived, died and was raised from the dead.
Now if you see spiritual significance in the fact that the men travelling with Paul 'raised him from the ground' at his experience with the Lord on the road to Damascus as being Resurrection, then so be it. Paul did not, as Alex posted scripture which shows he taught a future resurrection. In the fullness of time? In due time?
That isn't to say that he didn't teach about 'death' and 'Resurrection' in this life, in the now. He was the one who said "I die daily" and "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live..." and many other passages that put a future promise into 'faith' for today, after all.
A lot of people in my life have hit with me that bible saying "Lean not to your own understanding". INVARIABLY, what they MEANT is, either "don't think" or "LEAN UNTO MINE." Pretty slick, huh? And just what do they thing THEY are doing?
Well, no. Not gonna do it.
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Defending a lie can be harder than telling the truth
your quotes are in black
"David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)"
Does not all come out of God?While you and I make Judgement on that which comes from God are you and I, yet carnal? You and I Mock God By insinuating our understanding is correct, I will ask you again, Does David Represent God In This scripture you quote as Proof David was yet carnal ?
Were not Davids words inspired by God ? how can you dare say davids words are not spirit ?
The Tree of Knowledge has a 2 fold message most get the 2nd message with ease (evil) the first message (good) is attainable.... if you ask.
Does Good represent Spirit (life) ? does Evil represent Carnal ? (DEATH)
As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). And just when DID they see this? Answer--next verse:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?" No. Read verse 9:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
It was all a "VISION." It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).
Yes we all know this was a vision but how do you get to where ch 17 v1 , is the answer/explanation to ch 16 v27,28 ?
Do you know what the "vision" meant and why God would have it in his word ?Why would they automatically perceive the men in the vision to be these 2 specific prophets ?when they had never laid eyes on them ?
and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH]
Really?
do you have a chapter and verse on this interpretation ?
Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are.
well here is another "cryptic" message - be cautious.
Being reborn/resurrected, is actually climbing back up into a literal womb.
You and your colleagues are looking for a literal resurrection of the literal dead - good luck...
perhaps Jesus knew something when he said "Let the dead bury the dead"
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Ian, I will give you an answer as I see it.
As far as Job goes he knew he would be dead in the grave and "wait," till he was raised/changed to a new body.
Job 14:14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
Acts 9:8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus. (NASB)
Rev 1:18 and the Living One: and I became dead, and lo! living am I for the eons of the eons. (Amen!) And I have the keys of death and of the unseen."
With this verse in Revelation, yes of course Christ has the keys to death and the grave, He was able to raise people during His earthly ministry as He so desired and return them to a physical life and He will call all from their grave in the resurrection of the dead.
John 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
In 1 Cor. 15 Paul was speaking to those that did not believe in the resurrection at all and if you will look a little further down in that same chapter you can see where Paul was going with that... the resurrection at His return!
1Co 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
Matt 16:28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
In this verse in Matt 16 Christ is speaking to His disciples, and Judas would have been there as well, the phrase "shall not taste of death" could very well have been speaking of the second death and could have applied to Judas, he was the only disciple that died before Christ was crucified and raised and was not able to receive the Holy Spirit and repent.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship Him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This certainly applies to the fact that God's plan was established before the world was created.
1Peter 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him. (RSV)
Also the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Anyway that is the answer I see to all the verses you have listed.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Well thanks for the honesty in saying "thats the way you understand it" I could write a book Kat but then it would be teaching .... ;)
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Ray taught that, properly translated, Rev. 13:8 is talking about the names being written in the Book of the Life of the Life being written there from the foundation of the world--not that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:8 And all those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name is not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.
See Kat's post above for a second witness.
When was the Lamb slain?
Rom_5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time came, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
Gal 4:5 in order that he might redeem those under the law, in order that we might receive the adoption.
Jesus the Lamb came, lived, died and was raised from the dead.
Now if you see spiritual significance in the fact that the men travelling with Paul 'raised him from the ground' at his experience with the Lord on the road to Damascus as being Resurrection, then so be it. Paul did not, as Alex posted scripture which shows he taught a future resurrection. In the fullness of time? In due time?
That isn't to say that he didn't teach about 'death' and 'Resurrection' in this life, in the now. He was the one who said "I die daily" and "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live..." and many other passages that put a future promise into 'faith' for today, after all.
A lot of people in my life have hit with me that bible saying "Lean not to your own understanding". INVARIABLY, what they MEANT is, either "don't think" or "LEAN UNTO MINE." Pretty slick, huh? And just what do they thing THEY are doing?
Well, no. Not gonna do it.
And here is stupid me thinking everything was in place from THE FOUNDATION of the earth - even the "tweaks" in our character flaws.
Perhaps we should say "In the Beginning the WORD WAS NOT" and that uncle Dave has a better angle ? By "stringing" multiple interpretations together.
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And here is stupid me thinking everything was in place from THE FOUNDATION of the earth - even the "tweaks" in our character flaws.
Perhaps we should say "In the Beginning the WORD WAS NOT" and that uncle Dave has a better angle ? By "stringing" multiple interpretations together.
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
Isaiah 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
Our character flaws manifest when God decides they're made manifest.
Abraham was made a father of many, when he had as yet not one child.
Romans 4:17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.
It's very simple, Ian. But it takes the Spirit of God operating in us to understand these things. All in due time of course.
God said,
Lean not on your son's stash,
In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will direct your path. ;)
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Ian, if you are so in such opposition to what Ray taught, why are you here? You are debating this topic that we are clearly showing what Ray taught from the Scripture?
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Defending a lie can be harder than telling the truth
your quotes are in black
"David was never begotten a new but rather was of the earth as a natural man. He was not born of spirit so how could his words be spirit (Christ said His words are spirit but Christ was conceived by the spirit)"
Does not all come out of God?While you and I make Judgement on that which comes from God are you and I, yet carnal? You and I Mock God By insinuating our understanding is correct, I will ask you again, Does David Represent God In This scripture you quote as Proof David was yet carnal ?
Were not Davids words inspired by God ? how can you dare say davids words are not spirit ?
The Tree of Knowledge has a 2 fold message most get the 2nd message with ease (evil) the first message (good) is attainable.... if you ask.
Does Good represent Spirit (life) ? does Evil represent Carnal ? (DEATH)
As for "There be some STANDING H-E-R-E which shall not taste of death, TILL [till mean 'until,' and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH] they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom" (Matt. 16:28). And just when DID they see this? Answer--next verse:
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Where they really, actually, literally, in the flesh "talking with Jesus?" No. Read verse 9:
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
It was all a "VISION." It happened in their minds, not unlike a dream--it was only a VISION, but in that vision, they really did see Jesus as He will appear "IN HIS KINGDOM).
Yes we all know this was a vision but how do you get to where ch 17 v1 , is the answer/explanation to ch 16 v27,28 ?
Do you know what the "vision" meant and why God would have it in his word ?Why would they automatically perceive the men in the vision to be these 2 specific prophets ?when they had never laid eyes on them ?
and then when the 'till' has occurred, THEY WILL TASTE OF DEATH]
Really?
do you have a chapter and verse on this interpretation ?
Your cryptic nature of posting leads me to be cautious of what you say because it is not plain what your intentions are.
well here is another "cryptic" message - be cautious.
Being reborn/resurrected, is actually climbing back up into a literal womb.
You and your colleagues are looking for a literal resurrection of the literal dead - good luck...
perhaps Jesus knew something when he said "Let the dead bury the dead"
Ian,
I am afraid we are beyond reasoning now. You twist the scriptures to your own destruction. God is not the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
You have been given sound replies to your previous posts and have dismissed them all, even mocking some in the process.
We have two witnesses against you and Gina shared the second. Let me re-iterate them.
Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Regardless of the correct translation of Rev 13:8 which david rightly brought to our attention, even if we abandon that, these two witnesses hold. God declares things to be even though they might not have yet come to pass for us. He declares those things which are not as though they were. These are the words of God.
You need two or three witnesses to establish a truth so all your talk about the tree of life and every other seed of confusion you wish to sow means nothing without those witnesses:
Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Because...
2 Peter 1:20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.
Psalm 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth...
The Word of God is inspired by God. Every piece of scripture is profitable and cannot be broken. That doesn't mean that "Kill my enemies and make it bloody, I hate those guys" roughly summed, is spiritual in meaning. David was a carnal man, his instructions were not for the spiritual. Christ even said:
Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Matthew 5: 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Jesus directly contradicts King David and that is because Jesus' words are spirit but King David who is born of the flesh is flesh. His (King David's) words are not spirit. This isn't me contradicting david, its Christ. You have contention with Christ and not myself Ian when you ask me how can I dare say David's words are not spirit?
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
You need to discern what is evil and what is good.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
There are many things that happened in the scripture, such as the words of job's friends (whose words are recorded in the scriptures by inspiration of God), and yet whose words are not spiritual in that they were not truthful. God rebuked job's friends in anger for not being truthful.
Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has...
This is a perfect example of being inspired by God and yet the words (of the friends) that were recorded were not spiritual. The words written are only inspired by God in that it was recorded for our admonishment to learn from and in this way has spiritual applications to our lives. It is not because the very words of the friends themselves were spiritual (truth) as you are attempting to do with David's words.
There is so much in your post Ian, so many things we could try and discuss, but mostly I see you are confused and wrestle with the scriptures. There is not much I or anyone else can do. I am reminded of a Mike Vincent who interpreted the scriptures in much the same way as you to the point of believing that we, those in Christ, because we must keep the words of the book, must also undergo the wrath of God. What a damnable doctrine. What a dangerous road to be on.
I'm not sure I can add more other than to recognize that there is too much here to try and discuss all at once so I chose what I could answer.
In Christ,
Alex
P.S. The answer to Matthew 16:27-28 can lie in Chapter 17 because the scriptures were not written with "Chapters" and these breaks we now have in the bible. Those are editorial additions many centuries later. In other words, the scriptures did not have these breaks and separations but rather flowed one verse after another uninterrupted.